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Post by archeiron »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:You continue to prove my point. You think you know me. You think I am a certain way and no one will convin\ce you otherwise. It's quite laughable. Keep up the good humour. I enjoy it immensely.
Aside from arbitrarily dismissing other people's links, are you attempting to contribute meaningful insight to this (or any other recent) discussion? The "they are anti-Bush liberals" card was played out when you (just) used it on a group of Republican, presidentially appointed civil servants, without justification (or shame).


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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

archeiron wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:You continue to prove my point. You think you know me. You think I am a certain way and no one will convin\ce you otherwise. It's quite laughable. Keep up the good humour. I enjoy it immensely.
Aside from arbitrarily dismissing other people's links, are you attempting to contribute meaningful insight to this (or any other recent) discussion? The "they are anti-Bush liberals" card was played out when you (just) used it on a group of Republican, presidentially appointed civil servants, without justification (or shame).


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I thought much better of you Arch. I guess when someone wants to believe you to be a certain way, there's no talking them out of it. Oh well.
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Post by Lynks »

If 50 people went up to you and told you that you stink, you would probably tell them that they have a bad sense of smell. Take a hint will you Mid, you stink (not litterally).

Also, stop evading questions people ask you. You are notorious for dodging them. You were asked to "provide a simple (even if totally fucking stupid) argument for why you [think] several lifelong conservative republicans are lying here".
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Post by archeiron »

Lynks wrote:Also, stop evading questions people ask you. You are notorious for dodging them. You were asked to "provide a simple (even if totally fucking stupid) argument for why you [think] several lifelong conservative republicans are lying here".
p.s. quoting, cut/pasting isn't enough. String a sentence or four together with some thought behind it and give us an explanation.

Let me put it this way: I am staddling the fence on this subject and I want you to persuade me why I should disregard the persuasive allure of this (Republican diplomat) group's point of view.
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Post by kyoukan »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:we just conject.
lolol
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Post by Dregor Thule »

... olololol
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Post by kyoukan »

orflrolfolr
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Post by Kylere »

In all fairness to everyone, there has never been any combat where a portion of the citizens from all political groups were not joined against it.

People have objected to wars in the US since the Revolutionary War, when there were large groups of Loyalists who objected, up util now, there has never been a war that did not have a group of bipartisan war objectors.

No major political group is prowar, hell people were dissenting against fighting in Europe against Hitler right until the war ended.

This is nothing new.

Now let me clarify, I am not saying that based on what we know today, I think we should be in Iraq. But both Clinton and Gore talked about Saddam being a problem because they were being fed that data by the CIA, just as Bush was, but hindsight is in all fairness 20/20.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

archeiron wrote:
Lynks wrote:Also, stop evading questions people ask you. You are notorious for dodging them. You were asked to "provide a simple (even if totally fucking stupid) argument for why you [think] several lifelong conservative republicans are lying here".
p.s. quoting, cut/pasting isn't enough. String a sentence or four together with some thought behind it and give us an explanation.

Let me put it this way: I am staddling the fence on this subject and I want you to persuade me why I should disregard the persuasive allure of this (Republican diplomat) group's point of view.
I never asked that you come over to my side. Why is it my duty to answer these ridiculous questions? I never dodge questions? I just find them stupid. You want me to convince you to believe what I believe. I don't give a fuck if you agree with me. I don't mind that other people have different views.

I have said it numerous times now, I don't know why these "respected" republicans have signed on to this project. I'm sure there has to be an alterior motive. In my eyes I don't think reasonable intelligent people really believe the non-sense in that statement. HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT?
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Post by archeiron »

Kylere wrote:In all fairness to everyone, there has never been any combat where a portion of the citizens from all political groups were not joined against it.

People have objected to wars in the US since the Revolutionary War, when there were large groups of Loyalists who objected, up util now, there has never been a war that did not have a group of bipartisan war objectors.

No major political group is prowar, hell people were dissenting against fighting in Europe against Hitler right until the war ended.

This is nothing new.

Now let me clarify, I am not saying that based on what we know today, I think we should be in Iraq. But both Clinton and Gore talked about Saddam being a problem because they were being fed that data by the CIA, just as Bush was, but hindsight is in all fairness 20/20.
*nods* In every American war, there has been a certain amount of public disapproval.

It seems that the more ambiguous the justifications for the war, the more widespread the disapproval is. While "preventing the spread of Communism" is not entirely essoteric, it is a topic that hardly figured in the day to day lives of Americans. I believe that the open-ended and ambiguous reasons for the Second Gulf War probably draw a similar level of disapproval as a result of the similar levels of ambiguity to the early Vietnam Conflict (before the body count became the largest reason for disapproval).

At this point, my concern is that we (America) need to become much more wary of going to war with small "rogue" states in the future to avoid reconstructive quagmires and to avoid becoming an Imperialistic nation builder.

If Kerry becomes the next president, I really hope that he doesn't make the mistake of trying to immediately withdraw from Iraq, as that would create a political, economic, environmental, and culture mess that would take decades to even think about repairing.

It appears that America has painted itself into a corner. :(
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Post by archeiron »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I never asked that you come over to my side. Why is it my duty to answer these ridiculous questions? I never dodge questions? I just find them stupid. You want me to convince you to believe what I believe. I don't give a fuck if you agree with me. I don't mind that other people have different views.
The idealized purpose of this forum is the discussion and exchange of ideas on Current Affairs topic. Before the recent anti-Bush diatribe, I enjoyed using this forum for discussion.

I find it frustrating and irksome that an agreeable, reasonable human being such as yourself wants to come in here to voice a one dimensional opinion in every thread, which unintentionally or not, stirs up everyone and degenerates every thread.

I(we) want to discuss. Join in our (sometimes, somewhat) intelligent discussion and offer the benefit of your own insight, but be prepared and willing to defend your point of view through discourse rather than bland party lines and stubborn question dodging. Otherwise, you are a disruption that is working to derail threads habitually.

p.s. Voronwe is a perfect example of someone who mostly posts informative and/or insightful posts. Krimson is another good example. Props to both of them.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

I'm sorry you feel that way.
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Post by kyoukan »

in my heart I know you feel the same way.
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Post by Aaeamdar »

Surely not just in your heart, but rahter your in heart of hearts.
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Post by Canelek »

Dammit Dar! was gonna say the same thing :P
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Post by Truant »

this thread reminded me of why i quit reading this fucking forum for two weeks.

fuck.
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Post by kyoukan »

I conject that you came back because you missed me.
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Post by Truant »

indeed, hold me!
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Post by Xyun »

Midnite, you've been roping us along enough, now come clean and admit that you are in fact a liberal. I am sure that you don't believe in the non-sense you post on this forum so please stop teasing our friends and comrades and come clean about your real opinions. I don't really understand why you would keep up this charade for this long.
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Post by Dregor Thule »

:vv_bj3:

He like, totally just conjected all over her face!
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Xyun wrote:Midnite, you've been roping us along enough, now come clean and admit that you are in fact a liberal. I am sure that you don't believe in the non-sense you post on this forum so please stop teasing our friends and comrades and come clean about your real opinions. I don't really understand why you would keep up this charade for this long.
Many days on this board I have come pretty close.
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Post by Sueven »

Midnyte wrote:I never asked that you come over to my side. Why is it my duty to answer these ridiculous questions? I never dodge questions? I just find them stupid. You want me to convince you to believe what I believe. I don't give a fuck if you agree with me. I don't mind that other people have different views.

I have said it numerous times now, I don't know why these "respected" republicans have signed on to this project. I'm sure there has to be an alterior motive. In my eyes I don't think reasonable intelligent people really believe the non-sense in that statement. HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT?
This is a serious question. Why do you post? You don't care what anyone else thinks about current events. You don't care about persuading us to believe what you believe about current events. You don't want to answer our questions about your opinions, nor do you feel any reason why you should. So why the fuck do you keep posting on a discussion forum about current events? What do you think this forum should be? Should we all just line up to post our opinion on each issue and be done with it? I was always under the impression that people came to this forum to participate in political discussion (which involves questioning of other peoples views, as well as the construction of arguments). Clearly I was mistaken, because you don't come here for those reasons (if you did, you would answer our questions, or explain to us why they are ridiculous and stupid). So what do you get out of it? Why bother?[/quote]
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Sueven wrote:
Midnyte wrote:I never asked that you come over to my side. Why is it my duty to answer these ridiculous questions? I never dodge questions? I just find them stupid. You want me to convince you to believe what I believe. I don't give a fuck if you agree with me. I don't mind that other people have different views.

I have said it numerous times now, I don't know why these "respected" republicans have signed on to this project. I'm sure there has to be an alterior motive. In my eyes I don't think reasonable intelligent people really believe the non-sense in that statement. HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT?
This is a serious question. Why do you post? You don't care what anyone else thinks about current events. You don't care about persuading us to believe what you believe about current events. You don't want to answer our questions about your opinions, nor do you feel any reason why you should. So why the fuck do you keep posting on a discussion forum about current events? What do you think this forum should be? Should we all just line up to post our opinion on each issue and be done with it? I was always under the impression that people came to this forum to participate in political discussion (which involves questioning of other peoples views, as well as the construction of arguments). Clearly I was mistaken, because you don't come here for those reasons (if you did, you would answer our questions, or explain to us why they are ridiculous and stupid). So what do you get out of it? Why bother?
[/quote]

Why is it my responsibility to explain myself further and not others to explain their fucked up point of views? Why is the onus on me soley? I don't see others who see this war as just explaining to me in a satisfactory manner how they could come up with this retarded opinion. Why should I spend post after post badgering someone to backup their fucked mindset? People who hate me on this board will never budge. I I don't give a fuck. I post on these boards because not only are there the idiots who call me names, label me, etc. but dozens PM me and we talk coherantly about the topics. They aren't foolish enough to post their agreement and civility on the boards because they would be lumped into my category. And that it not one you want to be in.
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Post by Aaeamdar »

Why is it my responsibility to explain myself further and not others to explain their fucked up point of views?
Hmmm, possibly because you are the one who said "I don't think these diplomats mean what they are saying."

If it were someone else who said it, I'd be asking them, not you. It's not like you are the only person on the boards ever asked to explain their seemingly unsupported opinions. If its a topic that interests me, I treat everyone the same.

I don't expect you to have "proof," but I'd at least like to have an explanation. A bunch of Republicans (who probably voted for Bush), are saying "I don't like Bush in 2004 and here is why." You claim that in fact the reasons they state are knowingly false (and thus presumably they have some other reason).

I just want to know how you came to that conclusion. Do you have actual proof? If not, have you read the writings or statements of these diplomats before that might lead us to this conclusion? If not, is there something about the letter, about an important signatory, anything?

What we have now is the completely unsupported (by either fact or reason) statement that you, a staunch Bush supporter, think the anti-Bush republican diplomats are lying about their reasons for being anti-Bush.

Given that this is (at least in theory) a discussion board, it really should not be suprising to you that you will be asked to justify your opinions.
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Post by Aaeamdar »

but dozens PM me and we talk coherantly about the topics. They aren't foolish enough to post their agreement and civility on the boards because they would be lumped into my category. And that it not one you want to be in.
Lol, so you are just the brave champion of the masses who fear to post on this board because someone might disagree with them? I wonder if any of them pull a Peter on you and actually deny knowing you in public. You are such a brave and tortured soul. My heart of hearts goes out to you.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Aaeamdar wrote:
Why is it my responsibility to explain myself further and not others to explain their fucked up point of views?
Hmmm, possibly because you are the one who said "I don't think these diplomats mean what they are saying."

If it were someone else who said it, I'd be asking them, not you. It's not like you are the only person on the boards ever asked to explain their seemingly unsupported opinions. If its a topic that interests me, I treat everyone the same.

I don't expect you to have "proof," but I'd at least like to have an explanation. A bunch of Republicans (who probably voted for Bush), are saying "I don't like Bush in 2004 and here is why." You claim that in fact the reasons they state are knowingly false (and thus presumably they have some other reason).

I just want to know how you came to that conclusion. Do you have actual proof? If not, have you read the writings or statements of these diplomats before that might lead us to this conclusion? If not, is there something about the letter, about an important signatory, anything?

What we have now is the completely unsupported (by either fact or reason) statement that you, a staunch Bush supporter, think the anti-Bush republican diplomats are lying about their reasons for being anti-Bush.

Given that this is (at least in theory) a discussion board, it really should not be suprising to you that you will be asked to justify your opinions.
It's my opinion. Just like it is many peoples opinions that Bush is the devil. Where is your proof that Bush lied, as many claim? You don't have any. Just as I don't have proof that I think those people have an alterior motive to this bullshit statement.
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Post by Aaeamdar »

I have pleanty of proof that Bush lied. I have stated it in a fair amount of detail in threads where it was relevant. I could be wrong, but I have proof and have in fact stated it. I don't just go around saying "Bush lied." I have given you my reasons for saying it and the facts that support those reasons. It doe snot mean I am right, it does mean that I have considered the case, and have both reason and evidence in support of it.

All you have said is "These diplomats don't believe what they are saying." You offer no reasons for that at all, you just state it.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

OKay here goes again.
But we all believe that current Administration policies have failed in the primary responsibilities of preserving national security and providing world leadership.
Where's their proof? How so? Sounds like bullshit.
Serious issues are at stake.


Oh yeah? Which ones? Or is it good enough to say that there are. By just saying that does it get enough people riled up?
We need a change.
Really? hmmmm Let me guess Kerry, right? A man who hasn't shown conviction ever? Oh yeah except the conviction to demoralize the military in Vietnam. Oh yeah and demoralize the military in Afghanistan and Iraq. How many times has he on the record flip flopped anyway? It's an hilarious number.

From the outset, President George W. Bush adopted an overbearing approach to America’s role in the world, relying upon military might and righteousness, insensitive to the concerns of traditional friends and allies, and disdainful of the United Nations.


Opinion. Wheres their facts? Do they really think our military didn't plan out these things? Problem is many of you assholes think things should go 100% smooth. Well in war that doesn't fucking happen. I call bullshit.

Instead of building upon America’s great economic and moral strength to lead other nations in a coordinated campaign to address the causes of terrorism and to stifle its resources, the Administration, motivated more by ideology than by reasoned analysis, struck out on its own.


Hmmm I believe many things were done across the globe to stifle terrorism through economic means. In fact I know so. I call bullshit.
It led the United States into an ill-planned and costly war from which exit is uncertain.


Yeah umm war doesn't have exact starting and ending times. Dipshits.
It justified the invasion of Iraq by manipulation of uncertain intelligence about weapons of mass destruction, and by a cynical campaign to persuade the public that Saddam Hussein was linked to Al Qaeda and the attacks of September 11. The evidence did not support this argument.
Wrong. They linked terrorism. They didn't link 9/11 to Iraq. They knew that Iraq was a terroist state as well and we all knew a 9/11 could happen at their hands someday as well. They also said that there was a relationship between Iraq and Al-Qaeda, which was recently proven by the 9/11 commission. Where's the proof of manipulation of intelligence? Is it there feeling and opinion they did so? Yes. And that it all it is. I call bullshit.



I'm going to stop there. I have a Father's Day dinner to go to. I have given you enough. If you can't fucking figure it out from that, then I pity your beligerant ignorance, hostility and negativity.
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Post by vn_Tanc »

Lol, so you are just the brave champion of the masses who fear to post on this board because someone might disagree with them?
The opinion that dare not speak its name :)
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Post by Animale »

It justified the invasion of Iraq by manipulation of uncertain intelligence about weapons of mass destruction, and by a cynical campaign to persuade the public that Saddam Hussein was linked to Al Qaeda and the attacks of September 11. The evidence did not support this argument.


Wrong. They linked terrorism. They didn't link 9/11 to Iraq. They knew that Iraq was a terroist state as well and we all knew a 9/11 could happen at their hands someday as well. They also said that there was a relationship between Iraq and Al-Qaeda, which was recently proven by the 9/11 commission. Where's the proof of manipulation of intelligence? Is it there feeling and opinion they did so? Yes. And that it all it is. I call bullshit.
At the time the Bush administration was saying that Iraq and Al Qaeda were connected, the ONLY connotation behind that was that Iraq was linked to the September 11th attacks. I know the administration didn't directly come out and say it, but they also didn't make any attempt to correct the masses who (incorrectly) thought that Saddam's link to 9/11 was why we were going to war. In my mind, that is a classic example of cynical manipulation of the populace to get what they had predisposed as necessary, overthrowing Saddam via a war.

Of course, even now, the operational connection between Iraq's government and Al-Qaeda appears to have been tenuos, at best. Iraq had zero foreknowledge of the 9/11 scheme, thus no part in planning it. Iraqi support of Al-Qaeda appears to have been limited to meet and greets (enemy of my enemy and so on), with both sides apparently not trusting the other for anything beyond a mutual stay out of my way policy.

As for the war quote... I don't think they believe that wars have starting and ending times... in fact I think that's their entire point. Wars ARE uncertain, and this administration went into the war believing that it would be over quick, and planned for a short war/occupation. They were WRONG. Now we're paying the piper for that mistake in American and Iraqi blood. Not to mention the destruction of esteem for the U.S. around the world (which happens to be these folks area of expertise).

In short, I feel that these folks opinions on U.S. foreign policy bear strong consideration, and would love to hear a point by point rebuttal from an equally knowledgable person within the administration. Of course, that won't happen.

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Post by Sylvus »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Serious issues are at stake.


Oh yeah? Which ones? Or is it good enough to say that there are. By just saying that does it get enough people riled up?
Which ones??? I realize that you do not agree with the message presented, but regardless of whether or not you think the current administration is doing a good job, are you seriously trying to say that there are not serious issues at stake for whoever will be the President in 2005? That is essentially what you are saying there, I'm assuming that because you disagree with their position that Bush is not the proper man to lead our country in 2005 that they cannot speak the truth on anything?
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
We need a change.
Really? hmmmm Let me guess Kerry, right? A man who hasn't shown conviction ever? Oh yeah except the conviction to demoralize the military in Vietnam. Oh yeah and demoralize the military in Afghanistan and Iraq. How many times has he on the record flip flopped anyway? It's an hilarious number.
I read the entire message, they didn't seem to endorse Kerry in it. They simply feel that the current administration has done enough things wrong to warrant a change. That right there is enough for me to seriously consider what they are saying. They aren't talking badly about the current President for any other reason than they think that his administration is hurting our country. Please remember that these are people whose livelihoods are made by Presidential appointment. The phrase "don't shit where you eat" comes to mind; I don't think they'd be talking badly about a President if they didn't truly believe it.

Regarding Kerry, I don't think he showed any conviction to demoralize the military in Vietnam. In fact, I feel that he showed conviction to help fight the fight in Vietnam, and when he got back he fought to pull his bretheren out of an unwinnable war that was amassing great casualties. Disregard the fact that it is Kerry for one minute, and what the particular issues are. Ask yourself the following question (or answer here, in the discussion): Would you find it a valuable quality in a leader the ability to change his mind about something after having seen how following his initial stance had played out? I have to believe that anyone would find that a valuable quality in a person, it's often called learning from one's mistakes rather than flip flopping.
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Instead of building upon America’s great economic and moral strength to lead other nations in a coordinated campaign to address the causes of terrorism and to stifle its resources, the Administration, motivated more by ideology than by reasoned analysis, struck out on its own.


Hmmm I believe many things were done across the globe to stifle terrorism through economic means. In fact I know so. I call bullshit.
The emphasis in the above quote is mine. They are disagreeing with the current administration ignoring the UN and allies that we've had for many years. Diplomats and Advisors are disagreeing with that. People whose areas of expertise are in shaping foreign policy. I've seen that you don't really agree with listening to opinion polls, are you saying that you do not believe that much of the outside world's viewpoint of the United States has been negatively impacted by the decisions to move forward with military action without the support of those countries?
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
It led the United States into an ill-planned and costly war from which exit is uncertain.


Yeah umm war doesn't have exact starting and ending times. Dipshits.
I'm not certain I follow that one. I don't think that they were trying to take issue with the timetable of the war, more that we jumped into a war believing that ending the war and the subsequent occupation would end a lot more quickly and with a lot less expense (both monetarily expensive and the cost in human lives) than has proven to be true.
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
It justified the invasion of Iraq by manipulation of uncertain intelligence about weapons of mass destruction, and by a cynical campaign to persuade the public that Saddam Hussein was linked to Al Qaeda and the attacks of September 11. The evidence did not support this argument.
Wrong. They linked terrorism. They didn't link 9/11 to Iraq. They knew that Iraq was a terroist state as well and we all knew a 9/11 could happen at their hands someday as well. They also said that there was a relationship between Iraq and Al-Qaeda, which was recently proven by the 9/11 commission. Where's the proof of manipulation of intelligence? Is it there feeling and opinion they did so? Yes. And that it all it is. I call bullshit.
The proof of manipulation of intelligence is all about the WMDs. Bush came on television and stated that we had to get in there and stop Saddam because he had evidence that there were WMDs. We went in and as of yet haven't found them. Saying that they had evidence of WMDs and using that as justification to the public for waging war on Iraq, without actually having said intelligence, is manipulation of intelligence.
"It's like these guys take pride in being ignorant." - Barack Obama

Go Blue!
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