Diplomats for Change Statement

[Thess]

http://www.diplomatsforchange.com/project/project.html

The undersigned have held positions of responsibility for the planning and execution of American foreign and defense policy. Collectively, we have served every president since Harry S. Truman. Some of us are Democrats, some are Republicans or Independents, many voted for George W. Bush. But we all believe that current Administration policies have failed in the primary responsibilities of preserving national security and providing world leadership. Serious issues are at stake. We need a change.

From the outset, President George W. Bush adopted an overbearing approach to America’s role in the world, relying upon military might and righteousness, insensitive to the concerns of traditional friends and allies, and disdainful of the United Nations. Instead of building upon America’s great economic and moral strength to lead other nations in a coordinated campaign to address the causes of terrorism and to stifle its resources, the Administration, motivated more by ideology than by reasoned analysis, struck out on its own. It led the United States into an ill-planned and costly war from which exit is uncertain. It justified the invasion of Iraq by manipulation of uncertain intelligence about weapons of mass destruction, and by a cynical campaign to persuade the public that Saddam Hussein was linked to Al Qaeda and the attacks of September 11. The evidence did not support this argument.

Our security has been weakened. While American airmen and women, marines, soldiers and sailors have performed gallantly, our armed forces were not prepared for military occupation and nation building. Public opinion polls throughout the world report hostility toward us. Muslim youth are turning to anti-American terrorism. Never in the two and a quarter centuries of our history has the United States been so isolated among the nations, so broadly feared and distrusted. No loyal American would question our ultimate right to act alone in our national interest; but responsible leadership would not turn to unilateral military action before diplomacy had been thoroughly explored.

The United States suffers from close identification with autocratic regimes in the Muslim world, and from the perception of unquestioning support for the policies and actions of the present Israeli Government. To enhance credibility with Islamic peoples we must pursue courageous, energetic and balanced efforts to establish peace between Israelis and Palestinians, and policies that encourage responsible democratic reforms.

We face profound challenges in the 21st Century: proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, unequal distribution of wealth and the fruits of globalization, terrorism, environmental degradation, population growth in the developing world, HIV/AIDS, ethnic and religious confrontations. Such problems can not be resolved by military force, nor by the sole remaining superpower alone; they demand patient, coordinated global effort under the leadership of the United States.

The Bush Administration has shown that it does not grasp these circumstances of the new era, and is not able to rise to the responsibilities of world leadership in either style or substance. It is time for a change.


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Contact Us Home Copyright 2004

Paid for by the Committee of Diplomats & Military Commanders for Change

The Honorable Avis T. Bohlen
Assistant Secretary of State for Arms Control, 1999
Ambassador to Bulgaria, 1996
District of Columbia


Admiral William J. Crowe, USN, Ret.
Chairman, President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Committee, 1993
Ambassador to the Court of Saint James, 1993
Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, 1985
Commander in Chief, United States Pacific Command
Oklahoma


The Honorable Jeffrey S. Davidow
Ambassador to Mexico, 1998
Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs, 1996
Ambassador to Venezuela, 1993
Ambassador to Zambia, 1988
Virginia


The Honorable William A. DePree
Ambassador to Bangladesh, 1987
Director of State Department Management Operations, 1983
Ambassador to Mozambique, 1976
Michigan


The Honorable Donald B. Easum
Ambassador to Nigeria, 1975
Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs, 1974
Ambassador to Upper Volta, 1971
Virginia


The Honorable Charles W. Freeman, Jr.
Assistant Secretary of Defense, International Security Affairs, 1993
Ambassador to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, 1989
Rhode Island
>> Read more


The Honorable William C. Harrop
Ambassador to Israel, 1991
Ambassador to Zaire, 1987
Inspector General of the State Department and Foreign Service, 1983
Ambassador to Kenya and Seychelles, 1980
Ambassador to Guinea, 1975
New Jersey
>> Read more


The Honorable Arthur A. Hartman
Ambassador to the Soviet Union, 1981
Ambassador to France, 1977
Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs, 1973
New Jersey


General Joseph P. Hoar, USMC, Ret.
Commander in Chief, United States Central Command, 1991
Deputy Chief of Staff, Marine Corps, 1990
Commanding General, Marine Corps Recruit Depot, Parris Island, 1987
Massachusetts


The Honorable H. Allen Holmes
Assistant Secretary of Defense for Special Operations, 1993
Ambassador at Large for Burdensharing, 1989
Assistant Secretary of State for Politico-Military Affairs, 1986
Ambassador to Portugal, 1982
Kansas
>> Read more


The Honorable Robert V. Keeley
Ambassador to Greece, 1985
Ambassador to Zimbabwe, 1980
Ambassador to Mauritius, 1976
Florida


The Honorable Samuel W. Lewis
Director of State Department Policy and Planning, 1993
Ambassador to Israel, 1977
Assistant Secretary of State for International Organization Affairs, 1975
Texas


The Honorable Princeton N. Lyman
Assistant Secretary of State for International Organization Affairs, 1997
Ambassador to South Africa, 1992
Director, Bureau of Refugee Programs, 1989
Ambassador to Nigeria, 1986
Maryland
>> Read more


The Honorable Jack F. Matlock, Jr.
Ambassador to the Soviet Union, 1987
Director for European and Soviet Affairs, National Security Council, 1983
Ambassador to Czechoslovakia, 1981
Florida


The Honorable Donald F. McHenry
Ambassador and U.S. Permanent Representative to the United Nations, 1979
Illinois


General Merrill A. (Tony) McPeak, USAF, Ret.
Chief of Staff, United States Air Force, 1990
Commander in Chief, Pacific Air Forces, 1988
Commander, 12th Air Force and U.S. Southern Command Air Forces, 1987
Oregon


The Honorable George E. Moose
Representative, United Nations European Office, 1997
Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs, 1993
Ambassador to Senegal, 1988
Director, State Department Bureau of Management Operations, 1987
Ambassador to Benin, 1983
Colorado


The Honorable David D. Newsom
Secretary of State ad interim, 1981
Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, 1978
Ambassador to the Philippines, 1977
Ambassador to Indonesia, 1973
Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs, 1969
Ambassador to Libya, 1965
California
>> Read more


The Honorable Phyllis E. Oakley
Assistant Secretary of State for Intelligence and Research, 1997
Assistant Secretary of State for Population, Refugees, and Migration, 1994
Nebraska
>> Read more


The Honorable Robert Oakley
Special Envoy for Somalia, 1992
Ambassador to Pakistan, 1988
Ambassador to Somalia.1982
Ambassador to Zaire, 1979
Louisiana


The Honorable James D. Phillips
Diplomat-in-Residence, the Carter Center of Emory University, 1994
Ambassador to the Republic of Congo, 1990
Ambassador to Burundi, 1986
Kansas


The Honorable John E. Reinhardt
Director of the United States Information Agency, 1977
Assistant Secretary of State for Public Affairs, 1975
Ambassador to Nigeria, 1971
Maryland


General William Y. Smith, USAF, Ret.
Chief of Staff for Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe, 1979
Assistant to the Chairman, Organization of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, 1975
Director of National Security Affairs, Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs, 1974
Arkansas


The Honorable Ronald I. Spiers
Under Secretary General of the United Nations for Political Affairs, 1989
Under Secretary of State for Management, 1983
Ambassador to Pakistan, 1981
Director, State Department Bureau of Intelligence and Research, 1980
Ambassador to Turkey, 1977
Ambassador to The Bahamas, 1973
Director, State Department Bureau of Politico-Military Affairs, 1969
Vermont


The Honorable Michael E. Sterner
Ambassador to the United Arab Emirates, 1974
New York


Admiral Stansfield Turner, USN, Ret.
Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, 1977
Commander in Chief, Allied Forces Southern Europe (NATO), 1975
Commander, U.S. Second Fleet, 1974
Illinois


The Honorable Alexander F. Watson
Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs, 1993
Ambassador to Brazil, 1992
Deputy Permanent Representative to the United Nations, 1989
Ambassador to Peru, 1986
Maryland

Bush's unwillingness to see reality and to take opinions from all sides has led these highly regarded ambassadors, generals, etc., to call for a change. Personally I find this scary, they are launching a nationwide campaign to press for the need for change in U.S. foreign and defense policy because they are deeply concerned by the damage the Bush Administration has caused to our national and international interests.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

They have a right to their opinion. That's all it is, their opinion. Their getting together is for the sole purpose of stopping Bush from being elected.

[Aaeamdar]

Yup. Many of these folks were Reagan and Bush I appointees as well. Phyllis Oakley (Bush I appointee) was on NPR yesterday discussing it. The other panelist from the Hoover Institute (NPR, unlike Fox News, is fair and balanced) just could not, or would not, refute the Bush "fuck you" policy that has dominated US foreign policy since Bush took office. All she could point to was the recent G8 summit, to which the obvious reply was "yeah, where has that ben for 3 years?"

[Kylere]

Yup. Many of these folks were Reagan and Bush I appointees as well. Phyllis Oakley (Bush I appointee) was on NPR yesterday discussing it. The other panelist from the Hoover Institute (NPR, unlike Fox News, is fair and balanced) just could not, or would not, refute the Bush "fuck you" policy that has dominated US foreign policy since Bush took office. All she could point to was the recent G8 summit, to which the obvious reply was "yeah, where has that ben for 3 years?"

NPR is not balanced, it is decidedly liberal. I am not arguing the point of the thread just the specific slant. NPR is and has always been of liberal slant.

[Aaeamdar]

The people at NPR may be liberals, much in the same way The Federalist Scociety (of which I am a member) are conservative, but the programming is very balanced. Panels are filled evenly with intellegent people. Guests are not predominately liberals - Newt Gingrich, as only one of many many examples, is a frequent guest on the programs there.

When NPR puts together a program or when it does reporting, it does not do so with a liberal adjenda, even though the people doing the programming itself may very well be staunch liberals.

[Dregor Thule]

They have a right to their opinion. That's all it is, their opinion. Their getting together is for the sole purpose of stopping Bush from being elected.

I promised myself I'd cut back on wasting my time bashing you, but hell. First thing that came to my mind when reading this was "No shit, Sherlock?" Does it make you even blink twice that such people would feel strongly enough about Bush and his administrations inability to properly lead your country that they'd undertake this campaign? Or are they all leftist tree-hugging hippies now?

[Kylere]

The people at NPR may be liberals, much in the same way The Federalist Scociety (of which I am a member) are conservative, but the programming is very balanced. Panels are filled evenly with intellegent people. Guests are not predominately liberals - Newt Gingrich, as only one of many many examples, is a frequent guest on the programs there.

When NPR puts together a program or when it does reporting, it does not do so with a liberal adjenda, even though the people doing the programming itself may very well be staunch liberals.

I agree on some levels Aaeamdar, but the moderators/hosts tend to be liberal and their actiosn reflect it, but I do agree they make on of the best equal time efforts of any major broadcast organization.

[Thess]

All of these people are bipartison, they have all worked for several administrations - this sort of thing has never happened before.

Personally I find it extremely interesting that all these people who have dedicated their lives to america, standing up together against the Bush administration. They are deeply concerned of the damage Bush administration has done to America's reputation to our national and international interests.

[archeiron]

They have a right to their opinion. That's all it is, their opinion. Their getting together is for the sole purpose of stopping Bush from being elected.

I promised myself I'd cut back on wasting my time bashing you, but hell. First thing that came to my mind when reading this was "No shit, Sherlock?" Does it make you even blink twice that such people would feel strongly enough about Bush and his administrations inability to properly lead your country that they'd undertake this campaign? Or are they all leftist tree-hugging hippies now?

Midnyte, shouldn't we be asking ourselves why our representatives to other nations, men and women that we trust to represent America abroad, would feel so isolated and betrayed by the actions of our government? Even if you support Bush, it would be healthy if you/he asked yourself how such people could be driven away like that. Perhaps, there are some actions that Bush could work to improve upon? If you don't see personal growth in his dealings with such people, then perhaps he isn't as great as you would want him to be and perhaps he is causing long term damage to the nation that you would have him represent.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

They have a right to their opinion. That's all it is, their opinion. Their getting together is for the sole purpose of stopping Bush from being elected.

I promised myself I'd cut back on wasting my time bashing you, but hell. First thing that came to my mind when reading this was "No shit, Sherlock?" Does it make you even blink twice that such people would feel strongly enough about Bush and his administrations inability to properly lead your country that they'd undertake this campaign? Or are they all leftist tree-hugging hippies now?

Midnyte, shouldn't we be asking ourselves why our representatives to other nations, men and women that we trust to represent America abroad, would feel so isolated and betrayed by the actions of our government? Even if you support Bush, it would be healthy if you/he asked yourself how such people could be driven away like that. Perhaps, there are some actions that Bush could work to improve upon? If you don't see personal growth in his dealings with such people, then perhaps he isn't as great as you would want him to be and perhaps he is causing long term damage to the nation that you would have him represent.

As long as we have a two party system like this, I just don't see how we could be alarmed or surprised by things like this. No, I put no weight into what they are claiming. It is purely politically driven. They wish for people to believe their shock, outrage, and feeling of betrayal by the "oh so destructive" Bush administration. I choose not to. I choose to view it as just another attempt to get Bush out of office. I don't view his Administration as harmful to our country or the world. I think he could be a lot better, but he isn't. I think Kerry would be a huge step down. That is why I support Bush. I prefer a man with conviction, than one with very little. It's my opinion. Just like these people have theirs.

[Ashur]

This post brought to you by the Media Fund.

[Vetiria]

Everyone that says anything against Bush does so because they are liberal hippies. Don't you all know that by now? It doesn't matter if they have been right-wing republicans their entire lives, and have even served republican presidents, they are all liberal.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Everyone that says anything against Bush does so because they are liberal hippies. Don't you all know that by now? It doesn't matter if they have been right-wing republicans their entire lives, and have even served republican presidents, they are all liberal.

That's an awfully broad generalization. Not everyone who wants to see Bush gone is a liberal.

[Skogen]

They have a right to their opinion. That's all it is, their opinion. Their getting together is for the sole purpose of stopping Bush from being elected.

Look who this people are, then think about it. This is a group of people who have to deal with Mr. Bushes foreign policies first hand. I think there opinion holds a lot of water.

[Aaeamdar]

Of course it is for the purpose of ensuring Bush is not reelected. How does that in anyway discredit it?

Bush is doing a terrible job. A group of Democrat and Republican experts in the field, all or most of whom have worked directly with the Bush policy, put out a document letting everyone know what a terrible job he is doing. Of course such a negative report is done with the hope that the voters read it and consider not voting for Bush as a result. So what?

If "they're only doing it so Bush is not reelected" stood as a reasonable counter to the credibility of such reports, then per se only reports supporting Bush would be considered credible. Your comment, thus, holds no relevance.

Thess,
While this does not reduce the significance of the report in any way, it is actually not unprecidented. In my memory (and I'll google it if its available on the web anywhere) a similar thing happened to Carter.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

They have a right to their opinion. That's all it is, their opinion. Their getting together is for the sole purpose of stopping Bush from being elected.

Look who this people are, then think about it. This is a group of people who have to deal with Mr. Bushes foreign policies first hand. I think there opinion holds a lot of water.

There is a slew of people who think he is doing a great job. The squeky wheel gets the grease. They are the wheel, you are the grease.

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

In all honesty - I'm completely serious here - I have no idea what that means, Midnyte. I've read it and re-read it and it doesn't make sense to me.

[masteen]

The fact that the people who think he's doing a good job are either toothless and illiterate rednecks or rich as fuck oil barons concerns me almost as much as the fact that military and diplomatic folks from BOTH parties think he's fucking up REALLY badly. These should both concern you as well Mid.

This isn't partisan politics; a lot of these people toed the GOP party line for decades.

[Skogen]

They have a right to their opinion. That's all it is, their opinion. Their getting together is for the sole purpose of stopping Bush from being elected.

Look who this people are, then think about it. This is a group of people who have to deal with Mr. Bushes foreign policies first hand. I think there opinion holds a lot of water.

There is a slew of people who think he is doing a great job. The squeky wheel gets the grease. They are the wheel, you are the grease.

trying to talk to you on politics is an exercise in futility. If it ever comes to pass that Bush makes a complete, unadulterated fuck-up, and leads this nation to ruin with undeniable evidence that it was his doing, you would STILL be grasping at straws....probably pointing the finger at "all the damn liberals", with some sort of half-baked conspiracy theory.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

They have a right to their opinion. That's all it is, their opinion. Their getting together is for the sole purpose of stopping Bush from being elected.

Look who this people are, then think about it. This is a group of people who have to deal with Mr. Bushes foreign policies first hand. I think there opinion holds a lot of water.

There is a slew of people who think he is doing a great job. The squeky wheel gets the grease. They are the wheel, you are the grease.

trying to talk to you on politics is an exercise in futility. If it ever comes to pass that Bush makes a complete, unadulterated fuck-up, and leads this nation to ruin with undeniable evidence that it was his doing, you would STILL be grasping at straws....probably pointing the finger at "all the damn liberals", with some sort of half-baked conspiracy theory.

Believe me, I feel the same about you. Yes, a group of people from both parties feel Bush is the anti-christ. In your mind this must be true because they are technically from both parties. I have the intellectual ability to recognize many people from both parties think Bush is doing an outstanding job. I tend to fall in the middle. This somehow makes me a raving lunatic in your eyes. A big "uh-huh" to you.

[archeiron]

They have a right to their opinion. That's all it is, their opinion. Their getting together is for the sole purpose of stopping Bush from being elected.

Look who this people are, then think about it. This is a group of people who have to deal with Mr. Bushes foreign policies first hand. I think there opinion holds a lot of water.

There is a slew of people who think he is doing a great job. The squeky wheel gets the grease. They are the wheel, you are the grease.

trying to talk to you on politics is an exercise in futility. If it ever comes to pass that Bush makes a complete, unadulterated fuck-up, and leads this nation to ruin with undeniable evidence that it was his doing, you would STILL be grasping at straws....probably pointing the finger at "all the damn liberals", with some sort of half-baked conspiracy theory.

Believe me, I feel the same about you. Yes, a group of people from both parties feel Bush is the anti-christ. In your mind this must be true because they are technically from both parties. I have the intellectual ability to recognize many people from both parties think Bush is doing an outstanding job. I tend to fall in the middle. This somehow makes me a raving lunatic in your eyes. A big "uh-huh" to you.

No, you have missed the point. A group of people APPOINTED (or reconfirmed) by President Bush to represent our government to the world, people that are bright and eloquent, feel that the government that they are representing is straying from where it should. These aren't politicians looking for more votes, but they are people with more information than any other member of the public could ever hope to have based.

You don't have to forgo your support of Bush over issues such as this, but I would hope that this would give you and other Bush supports pause to reflect on his strengths and weaknesses.

The concern that many board members have is that you - and other Bush supporters - seem equipped with some sort of political teflon coating that deflects any substantial Bush criticisms from your ears regardless of how credible or serious the source.

An honest effort to question your own view point through logical discourse (privately or with others) is healthy to any opinion. An honest discussion may strengthen your opinion through logical reaffirmation of your opinion, you may find rational reasons to discredit the source. or you may even change your mind (as you did once with the gay couple rights issue or so you claimed at the time!).

[kyoukan]

The fact that the people who think he's doing a good job are either toothless and illiterate rednecks or rich as fuck oil barons concerns me almost as much as the fact that military and diplomatic folks from BOTH parties think he's fucking up REALLY badly. These should both concern you as well Mid.

This isn't partisan politics; a lot of these people toed the GOP party line for decades.

they have all fallen under the influence of the liberal media's evil jew mind control beams.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Arch, I hear the criticism. I find most of it to be filled with hatred and ridiculous acusations. Do I think he is the perfect president? Hell no. Does he have flaws? Yep. Is he, in my eyes, better than Kerry? Yep. Does his pro's, to me, outweigh his cons? Yep. You have your opinion based on the information you see and I have mine.

[archeiron]

Arch, I hear the criticism. I find most of it to be filled with hatred and ridiculous acusations. Do I think he is the perfect president? Hell no. Does he have flaws? Yep. Is he, in my eyes, better than Kerry? Yep. Does his pro's, to me, outweigh his cons? Yep. You have your opinion based on the information you see and I have mine.

Can you offer rational justification for that "hatred and ridiculous accustation" in this instance, or are you just dismissing it out of hand because they are "them" rather than "us"?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Arch, I hear the criticism. I find most of it to be filled with hatred and ridiculous acusations. Do I think he is the perfect president? Hell no. Does he have flaws? Yep. Is he, in my eyes, better than Kerry? Yep. Does his pro's, to me, outweigh his cons? Yep. You have your opinion based on the information you see and I have mine.

Can you offer rational justification for that "hatred and ridiculous accustation" in this instance, or are you just dismissing it out of hand because they are "them" rather than "us"?

Why sure I can. Re-read the following. LOL

The undersigned have held positions of responsibility for the planning and execution of American foreign and defense policy. Collectively, we have served every president since Harry S. Truman. Some of us are Democrats, some are Republicans or Independents, many voted for George W. Bush. But we all believe that current Administration policies have failed in the primary responsibilities of preserving national security and providing world leadership. Serious issues are at stake. We need a change.

From the outset, President George W. Bush adopted an overbearing approach to America’s role in the world, relying upon military might and righteousness, insensitive to the concerns of traditional friends and allies, and disdainful of the United Nations. Instead of building upon America’s great economic and moral strength to lead other nations in a coordinated campaign to address the causes of terrorism and to stifle its resources, the Administration, motivated more by ideology than by reasoned analysis, struck out on its own. It led the United States into an ill-planned and costly war from which exit is uncertain. It justified the invasion of Iraq by manipulation of uncertain intelligence about weapons of mass destruction, and by a cynical campaign to persuade the public that Saddam Hussein was linked to Al Qaeda and the attacks of September 11. The evidence did not support this argument.

Our security has been weakened. While American airmen and women, marines, soldiers and sailors have performed gallantly, our armed forces were not prepared for military occupation and nation building. Public opinion polls throughout the world report hostility toward us. Muslim youth are turning to anti-American terrorism. Never in the two and a quarter centuries of our history has the United States been so isolated among the nations, so broadly feared and distrusted. No loyal American would question our ultimate right to act alone in our national interest; but responsible leadership would not turn to unilateral military action before diplomacy had been thoroughly explored.

The United States suffers from close identification with autocratic regimes in the Muslim world, and from the perception of unquestioning support for the policies and actions of the present Israeli Government. To enhance credibility with Islamic peoples we must pursue courageous, energetic and balanced efforts to establish peace between Israelis and Palestinians, and policies that encourage responsible democratic reforms.

We face profound challenges in the 21st Century: proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, unequal distribution of wealth and the fruits of globalization, terrorism, environmental degradation, population growth in the developing world, HIV/AIDS, ethnic and religious confrontations. Such problems can not be resolved by military force, nor by the sole remaining superpower alone; they demand patient, coordinated global effort under the leadership of the United States.

The Bush Administration has shown that it does not grasp these circumstances of the new era, and is not able to rise to the responsibilities of world leadership in either style or substance. It is time for a change.

[Dregor Thule]

Why sure I can. Re-read the following. LOL

Ok now class, take out your yellow highlighter and highlight the parts you feel are filled with hatred and ridiculous accusations. Remember Mid, not everyone reads every anti-Bush article with the default mindset that they're traitorous commie scum. Point out what you think are ridiculous accusations and explain why you feel that way. Actually give your argument on why you feel what you do instead of making some vague statement so you don't have to try and justify your thoughts.

[Xyun]

asking mid to do that is sorta like asking cart to stop being stupid

[archeiron]

Can you offer rational justification for that "hatred and ridiculous accustation" in this instance, or are you just dismissing it out of hand because they are "them" rather than "us"?

Why sure I can. Re-read the following. LOL

So, you can't offer rational justification, but you are willing attempt to patronize one of the few people on this board who attempts to engage you in debate? Well done, champ. You sure pwnz0r3d me with your l337 quoting sk1llz.

When you grow up, come back and answer the fucking question, tiger.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Can you offer rational justification for that "hatred and ridiculous accustation" in this instance, or are you just dismissing it out of hand because they are "them" rather than "us"?

Why sure I can. Re-read the following. LOL

So, you can't offer rational justification, but you are willing attempt to patronize one of the few people on this board who attempts to engage you in debate? Well done, champ. You sure pwnz0r3d me with your l337 quoting sk1llz.

When you grow up, come back and answer the fucking question, tiger.

I find the whole thing blasphemis.

[Dregor Thule]

So no, you can't. Sigh. I tried, I really, really did.

[Thess]

So no, you can't. Sigh. I tried, I really, really did.

lol

[kyoukan]

taylor says:
hang on to your gonads

taylor says:
and to your strife

shanks says:
gonads and strife

taylor says:
the liberal media is trying to control our minds

taylor says:
the jews have taken control of congress

taylor says:
black america is the new babylon

shanks says:
mommie

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I really don't have time to break the entire thing apart. So I will just do a couple.

Our security has been weakened.

??? We now have an entire fucking task force dedicated to our security which has so far stopped any more attacks on our soil since 9/11.

While American airmen and women, marines, soldiers and sailors have performed gallantly, our armed forces were not prepared for military occupation and nation building.

Says who? They are doing a fine job. Could things have been a hell of a lot better? Yes. Could our equipment been 1 million times better? Yes. Could we afford to sit around and wait a decade to build up the military and risk more attacks? Not in my opinion.

There are three kinds of people.

Proactive
Inactive
Reactive

After 9/11 we had to react to Al-Qaeda. We were proactive with Iraq.

Public opinion polls throughout the world report hostility toward us.

/shrug, If you live your life by pulic opinion polls you end up being a Clinton. If prefer true leadership thank you.

Muslim youth are turning to anti-American terrorism.

And this is new? LOL

Never in the two and a quarter centuries of our history has the United States been so isolated among the nations, so broadly feared and distrusted.

In their opinion. Not in reasonable peoples minds. Feared? Good. That was kind of the point.

No loyal American would question our ultimate right to act alone in our national interest; but responsible leadership would not turn to unilateral military action before diplomacy had been thoroughly explored.

Wow. Where were these idiots through all those years of years of UN sanctions? Jesus, seriously guys. Keep on spinning.

[Lynks]

Never in the two and a quarter centuries of our history has the United States been so isolated among the nations, so broadly feared and distrusted.

In their opinion. Not in reasonable peoples minds. Feared? Good. That was kind of the point.

Are you really this fucking blind? The whole world is saying "we don't trust America" and all you can say is they're not reasonable? I applaud the fact that you think you are smart and that you are better than most people thogh. The US right now is being viewed as some gun crazed lunatic across the world. Why can't you see this? Why do you dismiss this?

[Arundel Pajo]

Why do you hate America so much, Arheiron?

[Fairweather Pure]

Why do you hate America so much, Arheiron?

It's obvious that he is a terrorist!

[Adex_Xeda]

Heh,

I rather agree with Midnyte on this one.

[archeiron]

Why do you hate America so much, Arheiron?

The evil jew mind control beams of the liberal media told me to. I don't have the open minded shrewed mind that people like Midnyte have so I have to accept what the mind beams tell me.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Never in the two and a quarter centuries of our history has the United States been so isolated among the nations, so broadly feared and distrusted.

In their opinion. Not in reasonable peoples minds. Feared? Good. That was kind of the point.

Are you really this fucking blind? The whole world is saying "we don't trust America" and all you can say is they're not reasonable? I applaud the fact that you think you are smart and that you are better than most people thogh. The US right now is being viewed as some gun crazed lunatic across the world. Why can't you see this? Why do you dismiss this?

Dude. I just don't have this overreactionary mindset you do. I never believe things are as bad as people say, nor do I believe things are as great as people say. You want to believe we are at this crucial point in time where the whole world thinks we are "some gun crazed lunatic". I tend to believe most reasonable, intelligent people, have the ability to recognize true evil. People like the terrorists who plan to kill Paul Johnson today. Like the man(assuming it's true) who raped his 11 year old daughter. That's true evil.

[Thess]

Never in the two and a quarter centuries of our history has the United States been so isolated among the nations, so broadly feared and distrusted.

In their opinion. Not in reasonable peoples minds. Feared? Good. That was kind of the point.

Are you really this fucking blind? The whole world is saying "we don't trust America" and all you can say is they're not reasonable? I applaud the fact that you think you are smart and that you are better than most people thogh. The US right now is being viewed as some gun crazed lunatic across the world. Why can't you see this? Why do you dismiss this?

Dude. I just don't have this overreactionary mindset you do. I never believe things are as bad as people say, nor do I believe things are as great as people say. You want to believe we are at this crucial point in time where the whole world thinks we are "some gun crazed lunatic". I tend to believe most reasonable, intelligent people, have the ability to recognize true evil. People like the terrorists who plan to kill Paul Johnson today. Like the man(assuming it's true) who raped his 11 year old daughter. That's true evil.

Are you saying you do not believe that these 26 diplomats are intelligent and reasonable?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Wow Thess, you sure are smart. In this case, they are not acting very intelligent nor reasonable. That is correct. In their heart of hearts, do I think they actually believe their statement? Probably not.

[Aaeamdar]

If in their "heart of hearts" (whatever that means) they don't believe it, why what explanation do you have for a group of Republicans so strongly disaproving of Bush that they perfer a liberal Democrat?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

You'd have to ask them.

[Aaeamdar]

Ummm, no. You don't have to ask them. They already told us. You seem to think they are lying. That is what needs an explanation. (Though we alredy know the answer lies in your pair of Bush-colored glasses you always have on)

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

/shrug, And you must be wearing Anti-Bush colored glasses. What's your point? You don't have one, so spare us.

[Aaeamdar]

I am certainly anti-Bush. Though, like the people that signed that petition, I voted for him, remain Republican, will likely vote for other Republicans when I vote for Kerry this November, and will likely vote for the Republican challanger to Kerry in 2008 (assuming he or she is not some religious nut).

My point should have been clear, but I guess you need it really broken down for you.

1. A bunch of Republican Diplomats signed a statement telling us exactly why they think Bush needs to go.

2. You claim they are lying.

3. You are asked why you think they are lying.

4. You tell us to ask the Diplomats why you think the Dimplomats are lying.

5. It is pointed out to you that this makes no sense and you are again asked to explain why it is you think the Diplomats are lying.

6. Having no answer, you feign ignorance (or perhaps you really are ignorant, not sure yet).

So again, if you really have a reason for why you think the Republican Diplomats that worked for Bush signed a document indicating that Bush has done a terrible job on Foreign Policy, please share with us your explanation.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I cannot prove why they are lying, just like you cannot prove they actually believe the non-sense in that statement.

That is really what political conjecture is all about. No one can really prove anything, we just conject. We speculate out our asses on these boards. All of us. But, in the end, none of us really know for sure we are right. That's been my point all the time. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. A fanataic thinks they are right and cannot be convinced otherwise. A reasonable person can argue passionately, but admit he/she could be wrong. Try being reasonable it's really enlightening. I have been proclaimed holier than thou you know?

[Jice Virago]

Don't frustrate yourself Dar. Mid just instinctively assumed you were anti bush by default since you are anti bush when it comes to the bedroom! After all, the only thing rarer than a gay conservative is a black conservative, and Mid don't care none for them darkies either.

But seriously Mid, if you can't provide a simple (even if totally fucking stupid) argument for why you thing several lifelong conservative republicans are lying here, then you are just mindlessly towing the party line. This is nothing new, because you engaged in the same tired bullshit when Richard Clark's book came out.

Edit: Missed the last post. So now that your shitty non argument has been completely taken apart by logic, you are resorting to the "Jesus had days like this" defense? My personal moment of zen from your last post, and forgive me if the irony fails to penetrate the skulls of the more close minded here:

A fanataic thinks they are right and cannot be convinced otherwise.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Don't frustrate yourself Dar. Mid just instinctively assumed you were anti bush by default since you are anti bush when it comes to the bedroom! After all, the only thing rarer than a gay conservative is a black conservative, and Mid don't care none for them darkies either.

But seriously Mid, if you can't provide a simple (even if totally fucking stupid) argument for why you thing several lifelong conservative republicans are lying here, then you are just mindlessly towing the party line. This is nothing new, because you engaged in the same tired bullshit when Richard Clark's book came out.

Edit: Missed the last post. So now that your shitty non argument has been completely taken apart by logic, you are resorting to the "Jesus had days like this" defense? My personal moment of zen from your last post, and forgive me if the irony fails to penetrate the skulls of the more close minded here:

A fanataic thinks they are right and cannot be convinced otherwise.

You continue to prove my point. You think you know me. You think I am a certain way and no one will convin\ce you otherwise. It's quite laughable. Keep up the good humour. I enjoy it immensely.

[Kelshara]

This thread is perfect proof that even trying to talk logic or proof with Midnyte is a huge waste of time. And you claim I exagerate about how you follow the leader around? Jeeze.