Ron Paul's Boston Tea Party sets another record

[Fash]

I've no problem not posting if that is what people want.

[Kryshade]

The opinions that they cling to are consistently half-brained and idiotic garbage that doesn't need to be refuted. To anyone but other mouth-breathing, half-wit bigots, it's obviously bunk. These guys are comfortable with their stupidity; they wrap themselves up in it proudly. They're not going to change, so discussing anything with them is an exercise in futility.

I encourage others not to bother as well.

Sounds like your part of the problem. I basically read this as: I don't agree with your opinions, and because I don't, I'm going to call you names, and on top of that try to push my opinion of you on everyone else. Way to go highschool mentality!

I won't respond to anything they have to say anymore on virtually any subject. We could be discussing the merits of long-haired vs. wire-haired standard dachshunds, and I probably wouldn't bother. I've found that simply refusing to interact with them makes VV a lot better. I still read some of the crap they spew because it is sometimes comical and good for a laugh. I encourage others not to bother as well.

Shun them. Be happy.

So here you are telling others to shun them, and that you don't interact, and at the same time, here you are interacting with them. Make up your mind. If your going to call other people names for their opinions and at the same time campaign to get others to feel the same way as you about them, then perhaps you shouldn't be so hypocritical in your attempts.

The lesson here is it's ok to disagree with others. It's ok to even think their opinions are "stupid". That doesn't give you the right to insult them for it. Try being a bit more tolerant of other people and their opinions, and you just might find they return the favor.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Indeed, Kry, indeed.

[Funkmasterr]

Logic? Since when has that been involved in anything the retard brigade espouses?

I'm saying this to those of you engaging Mid, Fash, etc.

Given their track record on other threads here, I just don't understand why other people still bother to engage these idiots. It's not worth the time it takes to type your replies because they go in one ear and out the other with these clowns. The opinions that they cling to are consistently half-brained and idiotic garbage that doesn't need to be refuted. To anyone but other mouth-breathing, half-wit bigots, it's obviously bunk. These guys are comfortable with their stupidity; they wrap themselves up in it proudly. They're not going to change, so discussing anything with them is an exercise in futility.

I won't respond to anything they have to say anymore on virtually any subject. We could be discussing the merits of long-haired vs. wire-haired standard dachshunds, and I probably wouldn't bother. I've found that simply refusing to interact with them makes VV a lot better. I still read some of the crap they spew because it is sometimes comical and good for a laugh. I encourage others not to bother as well.

Shun them. Be happy.

That sure means a lot coming from someone that rarely posts, period..

[Xatrei]

Sounds like your part of the problem. I basically read this as: I don't agree with your opinions, and because I don't, I'm going to call you names, and on top of that try to push my opinion of you on everyone else. Way to go highschool mentality!
...
So here you are telling others to shun them, and that you don't interact, and at the same time, here you are interacting with them. Make up your mind. If your going to call other people names for their opinions and at the same time campaign to get others to feel the same way as you about them, then perhaps you shouldn't be so hypocritical in your attempts.

The lesson here is it's ok to disagree with others. It's ok to even think their opinions are "stupid". That doesn't give you the right to insult them for it. Try being a bit more tolerant of other people and their opinions, and you just might find they return the favor.

This is hardly the case, Kry. Frankly, I think that you're being a bit presumptuous and reading a lot into what I posted.

I like a good discussion as much as anyone, regardless of whether their point of view matches my own. For example, my wife and I are polar opposites when it comes to politics and some rather important social issues. Many of my friends have significantly different ideas about how things should be. Somehow we all manage to have civil, intelligent discussions about any number of potentially contentious subjects. Frankly, I love discussing things with people that have beliefs and values different from my own. I like the exposure to other points of view, but sometimes, there comes a point when it's simply no longer worth talking to certain people. The key factor here is that those specific individuals have repeatedly demonstrated that they're not worth the time or energy it takes to discuss anything with them. I'm far from alone on this, and that has been hashed out here a couple of times. Many people have reached that point with Mid and a few others like him.

I'm not advocating that people stop discussing things with others simply because they disagree with that person's position. I'm not insulting anyone just because I didn't agree with something they believe. What I have said about Mid or the others has nothing at all to do with whatever belief of theirs I personally find to be repugnant. Instead, it's the manner in which they have discussed things, engaged others or treated those with home they disagree on this board over time that has garnered my disrespect. Again, my previous post was not directed to them, but instead to those who continue to try to have any kind of rational discussion about anything with them. I completely expected that there would be a response from them, but that's incidental to the point I was attempting to make to others.

Look no further than this post, Kry, to see an example of my willingness to have a civil discussion with someone with whom I disagree. My motivations are not what you seem to think they are, judging by your response to my previous post. I disagree with your points, yet here we sit with no name calling, no attacks and no hostility. Perhaps next time, you should not be so quick to jump to conclusions.

All this from someone that rarely posts (i.e. "only" 3 or 4 posts a week averaged over the 5+ years we've been here). Yeah, I should have let that one go, but...

[Funkmasterr]

Sounds like your part of the problem. I basically read this as: I don't agree with your opinions, and because I don't, I'm going to call you names, and on top of that try to push my opinion of you on everyone else. Way to go highschool mentality!
...
So here you are telling others to shun them, and that you don't interact, and at the same time, here you are interacting with them. Make up your mind. If your going to call other people names for their opinions and at the same time campaign to get others to feel the same way as you about them, then perhaps you shouldn't be so hypocritical in your attempts.

The lesson here is it's ok to disagree with others. It's ok to even think their opinions are "stupid". That doesn't give you the right to insult them for it. Try being a bit more tolerant of other people and their opinions, and you just might find they return the favor.

This is hardly the case, Kry. Frankly, I think that you're being a bit presumptuous and reading a lot into what I posted.

I like a good discussion as much as anyone, regardless of whether their point of view matches my own. For example, my wife and I are polar opposites when it comes to politics and some rather important social issues. Many of my friends have significantly different ideas about how things should be. Somehow we all manage to have civil, intelligent discussions about any number of potentially contentious subjects. Frankly, I love discussing things with people that have beliefs and values different from my own. I like the exposure to other points of view, but sometimes, there comes a point when it's simply no longer worth talking to certain people. The key factor here is that those specific individuals have repeatedly demonstrated that they're not worth the time or energy it takes to discuss anything with them. I'm far from alone on this, and that has been hashed out here a couple of times. Many people have reached that point with Mid and a few others like him.

I'm not advocating that people stop discussing things with others simply because they disagree with that person's position. I'm not insulting anyone just because I didn't agree with something they believe. What I have said about Mid or the others has nothing at all to do with whatever belief of theirs I personally find to be repugnant. Instead, it's the manner in which they have discussed things, engaged others or treated those with home they disagree on this board over time that has garnered my disrespect. Again, my previous post was not directed to them, but instead to those who continue to try to have any kind of rational discussion about anything with them. I completely expected that there would be a response from them, but that's incidental to the point I was attempting to make to others.

Look no further than this post, Kry, to see an example of my willingness to have a civil discussion with someone with whom I disagree. My motivations are not what you seem to think they are, judging by your response to my previous post. I disagree with your points, yet here we sit with no name calling, no attacks and no hostility. Perhaps next time, you should not be so quick to jump to conclusions.

All this from someone that rarely posts (i.e. "only" 3 or 4 posts a week averaged over the 5+ years we've been here). Yeah, I should have let that one go, but...

I don't know why I bother responding to this topic when it is brought up every other week, but I can't help it.

Maybe if you actually paid a bit more unbiased attention to VV, particularly to this forum - you would see that you are maybe partially correct, but far from spot on. Most of the time, the people you are badgering are not the ones to toss the first stone. They post a un popular opinion and are almost immediately called an idiot/whatever else.. then they do the same back (it's easy to say just ignore it and continue to try and discuss the topic, but when it happens time and time again that becomes harder and harder).

Then over time, when you have learned that because your opinion is far from popular here, that a lot of the outspoken majority here doesn't even want to hear your opinion and will insult you immediately no matter what you post about - you quit trying to be nice and just make pre-emptive attacks as well.

Maybe, like Kryshade pointed out, if people just kept things civil and explained that they disagree and why, people like myself, midnyte, fash (he is actually a lot more tolerant and continues to try and discuss the topic long after I have given up) would make an effort to do the same.. but at this point why bother?

It has been pointed out that although VV was originally a EQ based board, it has little or nothing to do with EQ at this point in time. I will say similarly that while the main reason we came here originally (it's been what, 7 years now?) was to be able to "flame" cuss, and basically say whatever to whomever. IMO, that is about as invalid at this point in time as calling this a EQ community.. people don't come here for drama anymore, really the main drama we had was related to EQ and spawn stealing/steamrolling/training, blah blah and none of that exists anymore, there are just some people that get an ego boost from being an asshole just to be an asshole.
I mention this because I am trying to preemptively explain to the people who will undoubtedly reply to this by saying "it's vv, if you can't take someone flaming you for your opinion maybe you should leave/stop posting/whatever" that I believe that is total bullshit, and if everyone would get over it and try to just debate the topics at hand without resorting to insults every other post - this place just might be a more enjoyable (and debate friendly) place for all parties involved.

Now I know that will never happen, but whatever. Basically you are being arrogant and presumptuous, and your logic for being that way is flawed, at best.

[Kryshade]

This is hardly the case, Kry. Frankly, I think that you're being a bit presumptuous and reading a lot into what I posted.

I like a good discussion as much as anyone, regardless of whether their point of view matches my own. For example, my wife and I are polar opposites when it comes to politics and some rather important social issues. Many of my friends have significantly different ideas about how things should be. Somehow we all manage to have civil, intelligent discussions about any number of potentially contentious subjects. Frankly, I love discussing things with people that have beliefs and values different from my own. I like the exposure to other points of view, but sometimes, there comes a point when it's simply no longer worth talking to certain people. The key factor here is that those specific individuals have repeatedly demonstrated that they're not worth the time or energy it takes to discuss anything with them. I'm far from alone on this, and that has been hashed out here a couple of times. Many people have reached that point with Mid and a few others like him.

I'm not advocating that people stop discussing things with others simply because they disagree with that person's position. I'm not insulting anyone just because I didn't agree with something they believe. What I have said about Mid or the others has nothing at all to do with whatever belief of theirs I personally find to be repugnant. Instead, it's the manner in which they have discussed things, engaged others or treated those with home they disagree on this board over time that has garnered my disrespect. Again, my previous post was not directed to them, but instead to those who continue to try to have any kind of rational discussion about anything with them. I completely expected that there would be a response from them, but that's incidental to the point I was attempting to make to others.

Look no further than this post, Kry, to see an example of my willingness to have a civil discussion with someone with whom I disagree. My motivations are not what you seem to think they are, judging by your response to my previous post. I disagree with your points, yet here we sit with no name calling, no attacks and no hostility. Perhaps next time, you should not be so quick to jump to conclusions.

All this from someone that rarely posts (i.e. "only" 3 or 4 posts a week averaged over the 5+ years we've been here). Yeah, I should have let that one go, but...

Good response.

I think if you re-read your post, you can see how I could "jump to conclusions" about the content of it. It seemed pretty bitter to me. However, I think your response was well put. Thanks for taking the time to clarify your position in a civil way.

In regards to Mid, Funk etc etc. I understand that over time a difference of opinion and views on the world can eventually cause a person to dislike them to the point of attacking them. However, this board would not be nearly as entertaining and informative as it is without them. Do I agree on everything they say... certainly not. There are times when I read something they post and wonder what they hell they could be thinking to spew such garbage. Of course, I've thought that about just about everyone on this board at some point. It's the various views coming from all sides of a topic that make this board what it is.

Dislike them all you want, but even in their negative contributions (from your point) they still serve a valuable purpose. It's often the people we dislike the most that we learn the most from. I've learned more from people that I DON'T want to be like than I have from people I admired. I personally have nothing against anyone on this board, regardless of how I view their opinions. There are a few that I think are overly negative and critical of others, and whose posts I find generally have nothing good to say (Aslanna, Nick etc) but I still appreciate the value that they contribute by showing me other sides of the coin.

Basically, like opinions/viewpoints, dislike opinions/viewpoints, but don't dislike the people behind them so much that you (VV goer's) result to insulting them personally. Insults on this board are what bring it down, not the different people and their opinions.

[Siji]

it's vv, if you can't take someone flaming you for your opinion maybe you should leave/stop posting/whatever

[Spang]

Quit responding to insults. Respond to the topic. If you agree, that's fine. If you disagree, that's fine too. If someone calls you an idiot, who gives a shit? These threads aren't about you. This particular thread is supposed to be about Ron Paul, as an example.

[Fash]

I'm not advocating that people stop discussing things with others simply because they disagree with that person's position. I'm not insulting anyone just because I didn't agree with something they believe. What I have said about Mid or the others has nothing at all to do with whatever belief of theirs I personally find to be repugnant. Instead, it's the manner in which they have discussed things, engaged others or treated those with home they disagree on this board over time that has garnered my disrespect.

I think the broad brush you paint others with is being unfairly applied to me. Not to say it's fair to them, but I'm mostly concerned with myself.

Occasionally I will say something controversial just for the sake of doing so... I cannot understand the knee-jerk reaction around here to exile or 'shun' others on a constant basis. This tactic is something that I don't think has ever been invoked by the group you're referring to. I could be wrong on that, but either way it's retarded.

[Funkmasterr]

Quit responding to insults. Respond to the topic. If you agree, that's fine. If you disagree, that's fine too. If someone calls you an idiot, who gives a shit? These threads aren't about you. This particular thread is supposed to be about Ron Paul, as an example.

I give a shit, because as I stated above I feel that the environment here would be more enjoyable for everyone if it didn't happen constantly. It's interesting that it seem fine to you when the people insulting constantly derail threads, but not when someone then defends themselves/responds to it (at least that's the way it appears based on when you choose to post.)

[Spang]

Ignore the insults. No one wants to read your bitching and complaining everytime someone insults you.

Or don't ignore the insults. I really don't care. Do whatever the fuck you want.

[Funkmasterr]

Ignore the insults. No one wants to read your bitching and complaining everytime someone insults you.

Or don't ignore the insults. I really don't care. Do whatever the fuck you want.

Saying I do every time someone says something is a ridiculous thing to say sir. And what don't you get about mutual benefit? People stop doing shit that bothers me, I stop doing shit that bothers them, everyone wins. It's a simple concept.

[Spang]

Ok guys, stop insulting Funkmasterr.

Funkmasterr, stop bitching and complaining.

[Funkmasterr]

Ok guys, stop insulting Funkmasterr.

Funkmasterr, stop bitching and complaining.

I'm not saying just me, I'm guessing this same thing would apply to all the people xatrei was griping about - I just used myself as an example. If that really happened though I would be glad to oblige

[Spang]

There's no way people are going to stop insulting others entirely. It's too much a part of the VV culture. Quit being a selfish baby.

[Xatrei]

I think the broad brush you paint others with is being unfairly applied to me. Not to say it's fair to them, but I'm mostly concerned with myself.

Occasionally I will say something controversial just for the sake of doing so... I cannot understand the knee-jerk reaction around here to exile or 'shun' others on a constant basis. This tactic is something that I don't think has ever been invoked by the group you're referring to. I could be wrong on that, but either way it's retarded.

Since you make a fair point here, I'll respond. From my perspective, I'll concede that you probably suffer from "guilt by association" as much as you do from your own behavior. Having said that, I don't think that "knee-jerk reaction" is the right description here, at least from my point of view. My feelings about any of you guys has nothing to do with any one, two or a dozen posts you've made or opinions that you've expressed. It's the result of the sum of your posts, and the behavior trend that I've observed in them. Maybe you come out a little worse in the bargain because you get lumped in with the others, but in the end, I just don't see much merit in discussing any actual issues with you guys. It's about as effective or satisfying as having a discussion with a wall, which is why I generally prefer not to get into such discussions.

[Funkmasterr]

There's no way people are going to stop insulting others entirely. It's too much a part of the VV culture. Quit being a selfish baby.

I know it never will happen (I said so above), but it fucking annoys me that I can never get into a discussion about something without getting attacked immediately. So I'm fine with it, however in that case everyone that whines about my reaction should probably shut their fucking mouths, because chances are they are causing me to do what they are whining about. That's the funny thing here, the people bitching about it hold the power to make it stop, but choose not to, it's not my problem even though it gets made out to be that way.

It could really be simplified to one question. Why should I do something that would make other people's experience here more enjoyable when the majority of the people are intentionally doing the opposite for myself (and others)? If your answer is anything other than "there is no good reason you should" there is something wrong with you.

I'm not being whiney or a baby, I posed a solution for a problem that is making this place less enjoyable for the majority of the population, but a few people are too dead set on being assholes for it to work.

[Spang]

So, it's our fault you act like a whiney little bitch in the Current Events forum?

[Funkmasterr]

So, it's our fault you act like a whiney little bitch in the Current Events forum?

No, you are being difficult. It's a simple concept, myself (and the others in question, I'm sure) would not act as bull headed and annoying as we do at times if we were not constantly insulted because our beliefs are different from the majority of CE posters. We don't do the same back to the other side of the fence every time they post, so I see why it might be hard for you to see that. Singling a few people out because their opinion is far from the one you have and making them feel like they shouldn't post in the forum for that reason is a fucking dickheaded immature thing to do, regardless of opinion or VV being about flaming or whatever other bullshit excuse you want to use.

[Bagar-]

Ignore the insults. No one wants to read your bitching and complaining everytime someone insults you.

Or don't ignore the insults. I really don't care. Do whatever the fuck you want.

Saying I do every time someone says something is a ridiculous thing to say sir. And what don't you get about mutual benefit? People stop doing shit that bothers me, I stop doing shit that bothers them, everyone wins. It's a simple concept.

What you don't get is that it doesn't bother anyone when you use your angsty, childish, hateful replies to come back at whatever insult has been thrown at you. I mean, it might, but I personally find it to be hilarious beyond description; that anyone would take the internet so seriously .

I know you'll read it, you're really predictable, so feel free to point out that i'm on ignore. I'm pretty sure spang was on ignore too. Guess that didn't last long.

Oh, and here's a remarkable observation: you're the only person in question that acts like a little bitch. Fash and midnyte are actually pretty calm about it, and generally ignore things. You don't seem to have the mental capacity to ignore ANYTHING.

[Xatrei]

For the record, I still hate Bagar, even though we probably agree a lot of the time in this forum.

-Xag

[Spang]

No, you are being difficult. It's a simple concept, myself (and the others in question, I'm sure) would not act as bull headed and annoying as we do at times if we were not constantly insulted because our beliefs are different from the majority of CE posters. We don't do the same back to the other side of the fence every time they post, so I see why it might be hard for you to see that. Singling a few people out because their opinion is far from the one you have and making them feel like they shouldn't post in the forum for that reason is a fucking dickheaded immature thing to do, regardless of opinion or VV being about flaming or whatever other bullshit excuse you want to use.

If you have grownup discussions with people, you will be treated like a grownup if you act like a grownup (I've been saying grownup a lot recently). If you stay on topic without saying stupid shit, I can almost guarantee the insults will subside.

Everytime someone insults you, look back at what you said just before the insult occured, and try to figure out why it is they insulted you. I seriously doubt it's because you disagree with them, and more because you said something stupid.

Quit saying stupid shit.

[Markulas]

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html? ... 262573a129

Speaking of saying stupid shit....

[Tyek]

Read the comments on the articles, a bunch of people are posting RON PAUL 2008!!

What I found funny was this post.

Ron Paul 1908!

[Funkmasterr]

No, you are being difficult. It's a simple concept, myself (and the others in question, I'm sure) would not act as bull headed and annoying as we do at times if we were not constantly insulted because our beliefs are different from the majority of CE posters. We don't do the same back to the other side of the fence every time they post, so I see why it might be hard for you to see that. Singling a few people out because their opinion is far from the one you have and making them feel like they shouldn't post in the forum for that reason is a fucking dickheaded immature thing to do, regardless of opinion or VV being about flaming or whatever other bullshit excuse you want to use.

If you have grownup discussions with people, you will be treated like a grownup if you act like a grownup (I've been saying grownup a lot recently). If you stay on topic without saying stupid shit, I can almost guarantee the insults will subside.

Everytime someone insults you, look back at what you said just before the insult occured, and try to figure out why it is they insulted you. I seriously doubt it's because you disagree with them, and more because you said something stupid.

Quit saying stupid shit.

I don't know, I can say the same thing I get insulted for to some people I know that are very much far right, and get total agreement from them. I realize that a good portion of the board views that part of the spectrum and most of what they say as stupid and insane, but you would be wrong to view it as that - you just can't understand how someone would think that, which are two different things. I find myself reading posts here and honestly 95% of the posts I read in this forum I find myself thinking "how in the hell could he really believe that" but I don't resort to namecalling right away.. Whatever, I'll drop it. I guess people would rather defend peoples right to be an obnoxious prick then defend someones right to make a comment without being berated.. I understand that now and won't bother mentioning it again.

P.S. I think Ron Paul is a total whack job and would not consider voting for him. However I don't deny the feasability of him actually getting somewhere if he were to somehow pull off winning the primaries, there are plenty of nutjobs in our country that would vote for him in a heartbeat.

This election is a complete abortion in my eyes. I mean, most elections I find myself voting for the "lesser of two evils" which is fine because you can only really take anything anyone says before they are elected with a grain of salt. However, This time around I put damn near every candidate on both sides in the "there is no fucking way you will ever see me vote for this person" category, with a couple of people barely slipping into the "lesser evils" category, barely.

I am almost as entertained by the fact that so many people would support Ron Paul as I am entertained that so many people are willing to completely ignore the fact that one of the muslim raised candidates refuses to sing our national anthem and almost always turns his back to and completely ignores our flag.

Interesting to see how things turn out, although I have a feeling I won't vote.

[Boogahz]

I am almost as entertained by the fact that so many people would support Ron Paul as I am entertained that so many people are willing to completely ignore the fact that one of the muslim raised candidates refuses to sing our national anthem and almost always turns his back to and completely ignores our flag.

I don't sing the national anthem. What makes you think he ignores the flag and turns his back on it? What does any of that have to do with being a Muslim? What makes you say he is a Muslim? I was "raised" in/around the Southern Baptist church, and I sure as hell have nothing to do with them now. I am guessing you fell for the fake-snoped chain mail referred to here.

[Animale]

I am almost as entertained by the fact that so many people would support Ron Paul as I am entertained that so many people are willing to completely ignore the fact that one of the muslim raised candidates refuses to sing our national anthem and almost always turns his back to and completely ignores our flag.

This has gotta be a troll. You just don't stop do you.

Animale

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Hot on the heels of his explanation for why he no longer wears a flag pin, presidential candidate Senator Barack Obama was forced to explain why he doesn’t follow protocol when the National Anthem is played.

According to the United States Code, Title 36, Chapter 10, Sec. 171, During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform are expected to stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart.

“As I’ve said about the flag pin, I don’t want to be perceived as taking sides,” Obama said. “There are a lot of people in the world to whom the American flag is a symbol of oppression. And the anthem itself conveys a war-like message. You know, the bombs bursting in air and all. It should be swapped for something less parochial and less bellicose. I like the song ‘I’d Like to Teach the World to Sing.’ If that were our anthem, then I might salute it.”

[Funkmasterr]

I am almost as entertained by the fact that so many people would support Ron Paul as I am entertained that so many people are willing to completely ignore the fact that one of the muslim raised candidates refuses to sing our national anthem and almost always turns his back to and completely ignores our flag.

I don't sing the national anthem. What makes you think he ignores the flag and turns his back on it? What does any of that have to do with being a Muslim? What makes you say he is a Muslim? I was "raised" in/around the Southern Baptist church, and I sure as hell have nothing to do with them now. I am guessing you fell for the fake-snoped chain mail referred to here.

I have seen him on a large number of occasions with his back to the flag, I have seen him on numerous occasions with his hands at his side and his mouth closed. This is not a debatable subject, period, it is NOT acceptable. It is a patriotic thing to do, and if a presedential candidate refuses to do that repeatedly, I will not vote for them solely based off of that. Being a muslim, which I am still convinced is a fact he is closely guarding just compounds that, because why exactly is it that someone who wants to be the leader of our country refuses to do something like salute our flag and sing our fucking national anthem.

No animale, I'm not trolling, I'm not wrong, and you need to fucking drop it, stat. The fact that anyone would overlook this or defend his right to be a non patriotic douchebag disgusts me so badly that I can't even put it into words.

[Markulas]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

Obama's failure to put his right hand over the portion of his body that corresponds to his heart brings up other questions about candidates. Do candidates go to church every Sunday? Does Guiliani do all the adorations at Mass? He better make sure he puts his right hand over his left when he receives communion and makes the cross after. How can we know he's a true Catholic if he doesn't?

[Canelek]

I'd say burn the catholics and let the evangelicals eat their ashes.

[Funkmasterr]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

Obama's failure to put his right hand over the portion of his body that corresponds to his heart brings up other questions about candidates. Do candidates go to church every Sunday? Does Guiliani do all the adorations at Mass? He better make sure he puts his right hand over his left when he receives communion and makes the cross after. How can we know he's a true Catholic if he doesn't?

I don't want religion to be a part of politics at all (I know it always will be), that being said I hope you weren't trying to compare me expecting a possible president to do common patriotic things to expecting them to do religious things... I hope..

[Winnow]

I like our National Anthem and don't want to see it changed. Obama not putting his hand over his heart doesn't bother me that much as he still appears respectful and isn't making a Black Panther symbol or anything else.

I genuine hug showing gratitude to our veterans is more important to me. If Obama showed a lack of respect for that, he'd be toast with me.



This is one of those stories being sent around in emails but I thought it worthwhile:

Ann Margaret....


This is a good counter balance story to the Jane Fonda Vietnam Woman Of The Year story.




Vietnam 1966

Richard, (my husband), never really talked a lot about his time in Vietnam other than he had been shot by a sniper. However, he had a rather grainy, 8 x 10 black and white photo he had taken at a USO show of Ann Margaret with Bob Hope in the background that was one of his treasures.

A few years ago, Ann Margaret was doing a book signing at a local bookstore. Richard wanted to see if he could get her to sign the treasured photo so he arrived at the bookstore at 12 o'clock for the 7:30 signing.

When I got there after work, the line went all the way around the bookstore, circled the parking lot and disappeared behind a parking garage. Before her appearance, bookstore employees announced that she would sign only her book and no memorabilia would be permitted.

Richard was disappointed, but wanted to show her the photo and let her know how much those shows meant to lonely GI's so far from home. Ann Margaret came out looking as beautiful as ever and, as second in line, it was soon Richard's turn.

He presented the book for her signature and then took out the photo. When he did, there were many shouts from the employees that she would not sign it. Richard said, "I understand. I just wanted her to see it."

She took one look at the photo, tears welled up in her eyes and she said, "This is one of my gentlemen from Vietnam and I most certainly will sign his photo. I know what these men did for their country and I always have time for 'my gentlemen.'"



With that, she pulled Richard across the table and planted a big kiss on him. She then made quite a to-do about the bravery of the young men she met over the years, how much she admired them, and how much she appreciated them. There weren't too many dry eyes among those close enough to hear. She then posed for pictures and acted as if he were the only one there.

Later at dinner, Richard was very quiet. When I asked if he'd like to talk about it, my big strong husband broke down in tears. "That's the first time anyone ever thanked me for my time in the Military," he said.

That night was a turning point for him. He walked a little straighter and, for the first time in years, was proud to have been a Vietnam Vet. I'll never forget Ann Margaret for her graciousness and how much that small act of kindness meant to my husband.

I now make it a point to say "Thank you" to every person I come across who served in our Armed Forces. Freedom does not come cheap and I am grateful for all those who have served their country.

[Animale]

Okies, was a troll.

Animale

Edit: I personally feel that in quite a few situations that the playing of the anthem is nationalistic jingoist crap. Now, that is not to say that there isn't a time and place for it, but at sporting events (for example)? Come the fuck on. Although the movie is pretty damn mediocre, go watch the original Rollerball to get an idea about how "national anthems" are utilized to polarize individuals. It's just a damn song, and not a very good one at that. Hell, go watch Borat for a more recent characterization of it.

As for the pics of him "not facing the flag," I would bet that there is at least one other flag out of frame which he is facing. It's pretty obvious in that one picture they are facing another flag, and not "ignoring" the one behind them. Again, there is a time and a place for the national anthem (military stuff in particular, other legitimate government functions) but seriously, saying it's "in memorium/support of the troops" or other such bullshit, when we don't actually support them when they get home with decent medical care and reasonable support for the legitimate psychological scars of war - it's just hypocritical crap. Using them and then spitting them out when the government can't use them anymore is NOT supporting the troops, no matter how many times you take your hat off, put your hand over your heart, and sing out loud and out of tune that good ol' drinking song with new lyrics.

[Xatrei]

That's pretty much the way I feel about it as well, Animale. I'm an Army veteran. I'm proud of my service and I love my country, although not a lot of the crap that it's been up to lately. Similarly, I've always been amused that the patriotism of many of the most vocal flag-waving, nationalistic, hawkish types stops well short of ever putting on the uniform. That's not to say that service is a requirement for patriotism, but it is interesting none the less. What passes for patriotism these days is more often just ugly nationalism.

[Winnow]

I'm not a fanatic about the national anthem, I just don't think it needs to be changed. There's also nothing wrong with playing it a sporting events...I had to listen to it before every movie on military bases growing up, along with all traffic and people coming to a halt every morning and evening when the flag was raised/lowered. I say, 'had to" but it didn't bother me although I could live with or without it.

As for our veterans, this Budweiser commercial is all I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osTrMe76kes

I'm not military but the rest of my family is/was. People can't do and be everything. I chose not to join a branch of the military but I sure respect my fellow citizens who do.

When my father arrived in Vietnam on the first of this three tours of duty there, he slept in the empty cot of a pilot that was shot down the night before. The pilot spent the next seven years in prison while I was fortunate to have a dad growing up. At a recent reunion of my dad's squadron from Vietnam, one of the women brought her son to meet everyone. She was pregnant with him while her husband was shot down and killed so he never had a chance to meet his father. It was quite emotional to watch my father and other friends of his dad tell him stories about the man he never knew.

There are many sad stories out there but my point is that alive or dead, those that serve or served in the military do make a sacrifice whether you believe completely in a particular war or not. Respect and appreciation for that is fully deserved.

I'm also not saying all servicemen are good. If they're assholes, be an asshole right back.

[Bagar-]

Why the Bagar hate Xagyg? I think it's a bit ironic that Kratos is still around, long after CoE has been defunct. I guess I lose! It was fun times though. The petty drama and bickering seems so far away and stupid, but at the time, it seemed pretty important. I'm big enough to admit though, I was quite the little prick. I like to think i've improved upon myself since those days though . Well, I guess i'm still an asshole, but i'm not nearly as immature about it!

Anywho, as far as the flag goes, and not to continue the rampant horse-beating contest we're having, i'd like to note that personally I dont give two fucks and a jig about whether Obama is patriotic, was raised in a musim environment, or fucking beats off to a picture of Saddam Hussein; if he can make the right decisions for this country and get us out of the shithole we're in (yes, to those ignorant, rightwing warhawk fucks out there, it's becoming quote the shithole) then who fucking cares. None of those actions make him a bad presidential candidate, or hold any relevance at all to his qualification. Yeah, it's america. Get over it. If you need to wear a flag pin to remind youerself of how overbearingly patriotic you are, you're probabaly a fucking twat anyhow. I don't even know who made it a fucking fashon statement to wear those fucking things, but they annoy the shit out of me.

Look, i'm a terrorist, I don't wear a fucking flag on my sportscoat.

[Nick]

it's vv, if you can't take someone flaming you for your opinion maybe you should leave/stop posting/whatever

Quoted again for Funkmasterr's benefit.

[Xatrei]

Why the Bagar hate Xagyg? I think it's a bit ironic that Kratos is still around, long after CoE has been defunct. I guess I lose! It was fun times though. The petty drama and bickering seems so far away and stupid, but at the time, it seemed pretty important. I'm big enough to admit though, I was quite the little prick. I like to think i've improved upon myself since those days though . Well, I guess i'm still an asshole, but i'm not nearly as immature about it!

Nah - I don't. I was just joking around.

[Zaelath]

When is it required to stand "for the flag" anyway? Is it only when it's being paraded, or does a redneck driving past with one blocking the rear window of his pickup count?

If you have one in your classroom, do you have to stand up all day?

Your flag love disturbs me greatly....

[Boogahz]

When is it required to stand "for the flag" anyway? Is it only when it's being paraded, or does a redneck driving past with one blocking the rear window of his pickup count?

If you have one in your classroom, do you have to stand up all day?

Your flag love disturbs me greatly....

The references to him not standing have to do with the pledge and the national anthem. The only other time I can remember that it was necessary was when it was being raised/lowered.

[Zaelath]

I was kinda referring to the photo Winnow posted, cause yeah, I stand for the national anthem (mine and other peoples).

[Nick]

Can someone please link the Bill Hicks sketch on why flags are ridiculously stupid things that people with brains shouldn't care about?

Don't get all teary eyed now by my mentioning that, I know how much it hurts you when a piece of cloth isn't treated like it was King of the Universe.

[Leonaerd]

Can someone please link the Bill Hicks sketch on why flags are ridiculously stupid things that people with brains shouldn't care about?

Don't get all teary eyed now by my mentioning that, I know how much it hurts you when a piece of cloth isn't treated like it was King of the Universe.

Piece of cloth? Surely you understand that the flag means more than thread to many people. It's a simple and effective way to remind the patriotic types what they're being patriotic for. If it wasn't the flag, it would be something else. I'm glad it's the flag.

[Kaldaur]

I think the flag should be a picture of a naked woman. If that were the case, I'd always salute when I saw it. *rim shot*

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Can someone please link the Bill Hicks sketch on why flags are ridiculously stupid things that people with brains shouldn't care about?

Don't get all teary eyed now by my mentioning that, I know how much it hurts you when a piece of cloth isn't treated like it was King of the Universe.

Wow. Just, wow.

[Spang]

Can someone please link the Bill Hicks sketch on why flags are ridiculously stupid things that people with brains shouldn't care about?

Don't get all teary eyed now by my mentioning that, I know how much it hurts you when a piece of cloth isn't treated like it was King of the Universe.

I googled 'Bill Hicks Flag' and found this:

I personally do not believe in burning the flag. It's a personal belief, but I'll tell you something, I think people are overreacting, oh, just a little bit. "Hey buddy, my daddy died for that flag." Well, I bought mine. Sorry. You know they sell them at K-Mart for three bucks, you're in, you're out, brand new flag, no violence was necessary. "Hey buddy, my daddy died in the Korean war for that flag." What a coincidence - my flag was made in Korea!

Is that what you were looking for?

[Nick]

Yes.

Oh boo hoo, no one respects your shitty little flag mid.

[Tyek]

Nick is grouchy today. All 4 posts I saw were angry.

Hope your day gets better.