Creative Zen Vision M (iPod's Suck!)

Post by **pyrella** » March 28, 2006, 7:59 pm

Can't find these fuckers anywhere

Circuit City, Best Buy, Fry's, CompUSA - all sold out, dirty fuckers!

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » March 28, 2006, 8:43 pm

Winnow - I have an Ipod Video 30gb. I filled it up with my CD collection pretty quick and I can honestly say I love it.

The sound is good, the picture on the video is fine, but I will agree after watching a couple of episodes of lost on it, that it is hard to watch for more then 45 minutes at a time. The battery life for watching video does suck, but as I said, it works for the 45 minutes or so I can stand to watch something during therapy, then I switch to music while I do the rest of my workout.

I had a Rio before this and the thing crashed, locked and did all sorts of crap before it decided to stop charging it's battery six months after I had it, fortunately it was free.

I am glad you enjoy the Creative unit, it sounds nice, but I love my Ipod, I love the IHOME Alarm Clock that you can get. They have a million accessories, the only thing I wish they had a better version of is the stupid FM tranmitters. All of the ones I tried sound like shit in my car and the one that supposedly sounds good is like 300 dollars, which is stupid. I do think I saw radios coming out with a MP3 player connectio on them, so I may try that with the next company car. I woke up this morning to Turn, Smile, Shift, Repeat by Phantom Planet - a great way to start the day then took my Ipod to therapy, it worked great and I am more then happy with the IPod, sorry if that offends you.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » March 28, 2006, 8:44 pm

I messed with a working model at one of the Best Buy's near me last weekend, and I don't think the VisionM is for me. I guess the fact that I really don't want/need a small video player is what does that.

Also, I really did not like the interface. I think it was a step up from the iPod interface, but it still felt like it was made more complicated than it needed to be.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 28, 2006, 8:49 pm

pyrella wrote:Can't find these fuckers anywhere

Circuit City, Best Buy, Fry's, CompUSA - all sold out, dirty fuckers!

That's because they rock! It's also because Creative pulled a Microsoft 360 and had a global release for the Zen Vision M and had nowhere near enough units.

Try Newegg:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6855102226

black in stock.

check out the one bad review ...you'll notice a similar argument theme from this thread:

Wow, it's just like the ipod video. Who cares about the codec support? ipods are the best and always will be.

Post by **pyrella** » March 29, 2006, 5:23 pm

Looking around, I've also come across the Wolverine media player

Spec page:

http://secure.serverlab.net/shop/mercha ... ode=T00107

I can't find a solid number on how many colors the screen has for color, battery life is a little lower, but the picture, video, and audio formats seem to be a little broader ( one of the things that caught my eye is it can display raw format for my Panasonic FZ30 camera files )

Post by **pyrella** » March 29, 2006, 5:28 pm

looking around, LTPS TFT screens are supposedly 65k color - damn!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 29, 2006, 5:36 pm

pyrella wrote:Looking around, I've also come across the Wolverine media player

Spec page:

http://secure.serverlab.net/shop/mercha ... ode=T00107

I can't find a solid number on how many colors the screen has for color, battery life is a little lower, but the picture, video, and audio formats seem to be a little broader ( one of the things that caught my eye is it can display raw format for my Panasonic FZ30 camera files )

I looked into that one before the Zen. Unlike the Zen, the user opinions on it weren't too great. It's UI, size and not supporting ID3 tags were main complaints. There seem to be a ton of those sitting on Fry's shelves though so no worries about stock.

The main negative comments about the Wolverine:

The bad: The bulky Wolverine Data MVP doesn't play DRM-protected files or support ID3 tags. Its EQ modes sound poor, and there's no user-programmable EQ. Other flaws include so-so remote control performance and short battery life

Post by **pyrella** » April 1, 2006, 5:13 am

Alright, picked up a black one today.

Sound is good, still sorting/fixing/loading music - kind of a pita, but that's what I get for 9-10 years worth of mp3's. Hmmmm I hope this thing supports ogg, was on a kick with them for a while

I'm scared about the scratching, and have left the factory plastic on the screen for now - why can't they offer these things in a matte finish body (omg better grip) and a thin replaceable *glass* cover for the screen?

Shit I could dremel buff a glass scratch out.

Anyways - so far so good. Looked at the sample pictures, threw an assortment of videos on with various results (Fully unsupported file/audio no video/video no audio/jumpy/crystal clear + beautiful sound). I must mention these are all regular things expected to be viewed on the pc with no conversions - full 700 meg divx's, mpg, mpeg, mov (ha no it didn't work =P), asf, avi, wmv's.

The video converter kept crashing on the one file I've tested so far at the conversion stage, but I'll keep fucking with it. Listened to some FM (we have some good stations here) recorded it, yada yada. Odd bug/feature(?) when reviewing your recorded FM, the volume can't be adjusted, you have to back out, adjust, re review - or just listen to it under the recorded menu under audio.

Interface was super intuitive, and I like the tactile feedback. Whatever the default setting is for sensitivity, seems to be fine, still need to look at the settings menu.

Is there an equivilant of Videora (for iPod) or PSPVideo9 (PSP obv) that does conversions for something like this in a batch? Assuming the converter included works, it still only has a few options, and I like to encode based on the media - Action movies high bitrate, Anime a bit lower, tv shows, Stand up comedy (don't need shit for that video wise, but also would be like to tweak audio seperately), convenience of ripping DVD straight to target file, yada yada.

More later!

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » April 1, 2006, 1:25 pm

i have a video ipod and i love it. i have no pics/video/podcasts/etc. on it, just music, and thats all i need it for. my ipod gets loud enough it hurts sometimes, so sound quality is there for me. am i going to run out grab a vision m take it home masturbate furiously over it like winnow does because of better sound quality? probably not.

mine was free (present) so i didn't really have a say in the matter, but if i were buying one, im sure i would get an ipod again. as for itunes, it is as good/shitty as the rest of the programs, but it works and is too fucking easy to use, so who gives a shit.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » April 1, 2006, 1:51 pm

Zamtuk wrote:my ipod gets loud enough it hurts sometimes, so sound quality is there for me.

Eh... Loudness != Sound Quality

However, good luck with your future hearing loss.

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » April 1, 2006, 1:55 pm

Aslanna wrote:
Zamtuk wrote:my ipod gets loud enough it hurts sometimes, so sound quality is there for me.
Eh... Loudness != Sound Quality

However, good luck with your future hearing loss.

WHAT?!

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » April 2, 2006, 1:59 am

Aslanna wrote:
Zamtuk wrote:my ipod gets loud enough it hurts sometimes, so sound quality is there for me.
Eh... Loudness != Sound Quality

However, good luck with your future hearing loss.

probably should have clarified that. due to different bitrates the sound quality of the mp3's (no, i dont care enough to scour the planet for 192-256) one song may require full volume to get a decent sound then roll to another song with a higher bitrate comes on and near deafens me. (no, winnow this is not an ipod defect, you can come off the soapbox) my hearing is perfectly fine, though 20 years from now...

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 2, 2006, 7:20 pm

Forgot to mention it, but I finally returned my Green Vision M Friday and noticed Fry's had five new Black ones on the shelf so you may have some luck finding one to try out.

I'm still liking mine. The UI gets better and better the more I use it. For those that like to operate without seeing, I like how I can do most common functions, uncluding volume, through a shirt pocket.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » April 3, 2006, 7:40 pm

http://dealnews.com/deals/Creative-Zen- ... 14818.html

popped up on Dealnews

Dell Home still offers the Creative Zen Vision:M 30GB Media Player in Black, model no. 70PF169000001, for $289.99 with free shipping. Apply coupon code "QGM7T0C1C2TVVD" to drop it to $269.99. Additionally, pay via PayPal and coupon code "X10DHMT?VL6NBS" cuts it further to $259.99. That matches our last mention as the lowest total price we could find by $40. Features include a 2.5" color LCD, video playback, FM radio, voice recorder, personal organizer, and more. The PayPal coupon ends April 21.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » April 4, 2006, 2:09 pm

Zamtuk wrote:probably should have clarified that. due to different bitrates the sound quality of the mp3's (no, i dont care enough to scour the planet for 192-256) one song may require full volume to get a decent sound then roll to another song with a higher bitrate comes on and near deafens me. (no, winnow this is not an ipod defect, you can come off the soapbox) my hearing is perfectly fine, though 20 years from now...

I don't think its bit rate, or at least not exclusively bit rate. Almost all of my mp3s I rip off my own cds at a consistent 192, but I still get a fair bit of variation between mp3s from different cds (and between the cds themselves if played straight). I think it has more to do with the level of the recording on the disc itself.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 4, 2006, 2:18 pm

You can use apps like Sony's Sound Forge to normalize audio levels for MP3s.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » April 4, 2006, 2:55 pm

iTunes can do that as well. I think it's a setting you actually have to activate.

Stalker Vacio · Post by **Stalker Vacio** » April 5, 2006, 3:28 am

For those of you interested Apple is having a close out sale on the refurbrished ipods to make room for the nanos.

Combine that with a 75% off iTrip at CC and that's a nice car stereo for under $200

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/W ... gHOtSd%2Fg

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Griffin- ... tDetail.do

Syenye · Post by **Syenye** » April 5, 2006, 10:59 am

Winnow wrote:For those that like to operate without seeing, I like how I can do most common functions, uncluding volume, through a shirt pocket.

the image of winnow fondling his chest to adjust volume has me giggling in my cube.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » April 5, 2006, 12:58 pm

the image of winnow fondling his chest to adjust volume has me giggling in my cube.

A day or two ago I sat here trying for ten minutes to come up with an elegant way to express this very thought before giving up. I'm glad that you feel the same way.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 5, 2006, 1:18 pm

Controlling my Zen Vision through my shirt pocket has given me the urge to get one of these. Chest touching devices are just now being recognized for their greatness. Trekkies have known this all along.

Syenye · Post by **Syenye** » April 11, 2006, 11:49 am

Crutchfield has the Creative Zen Vision: M 30 GB color screen MP3 and Video Player (Black) for a low $299.99 - $50 off code: PA440 = $249.99 shipped free. Tax in VA.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 14, 2006, 12:44 pm

It's been three weeks now and I'm loving my Zen Vision more and more. No crackle sounds or whatever crap Zaelath was quoting about.

I picked up some Sennheiser HD 485 headphones and they sound amazing combined with the Zen. For those that think small things like, oh, sound quality, is important in an audio device, the Sennheiser's are well worth getting.

Post by **Xouqoa** » April 18, 2006, 3:05 am

I got one too the other day.

My only complaint is getting it to synchronize with what I had on my hard disk was kind of a pain in the ass. I had to download some hotfix for WMP. I think I got it all working now, though.

Has anybody used this? http://www.redchairsoftware.com/notmad/trial.php

I messed with the trial a bit, thinking about getting it and using it instead of the bundled software that came with the player. It seems a bit more intuitive to use.

Post by **Xouqoa** » April 18, 2006, 3:12 am

Oh yeah, and not sure if anybody has posted this or not, but it's pretty cool if you are wanting to check out "Podcasts" on your Zen.

http://www.zencast.com

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 18, 2006, 12:27 pm

Xouqoa wrote:I got one too the other day.

My only complaint is getting it to synchronize with what I had on my hard disk was kind of a pain in the ass. I had to download some hotfix for WMP. I think I got it all working now, though.

Has anybody used this? http://www.redchairsoftware.com/notmad/trial.php

I messed with the trial a bit, thinking about getting it and using it instead of the bundled software that came with the player. It seems a bit more intuitive to use.

I used the free Media Monkey app to synch everything. It seemed to work ok. I hear the the Redchair software you mention is good but I haven't tried it yet.

So what color did you get Xou? (and I still need to play around with the Zen/Pod casts)

Post by **Xouqoa** » April 18, 2006, 1:11 pm

I got a black one, it was the only color I could find but that's okay - I really don't care.

I also ordered a skin for it to keep it from getting scratched up.

http://www.theinvisibleshield.com

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 18, 2006, 1:32 pm

I still have the original packing film on the screen. I bought some palm pilot protection film thingies but havent put one on yet. The invisible skin route seems like the best way to go.

Post by **pyrella** » April 18, 2006, 4:54 pm

I got the zencast software, and rss'd a few feeds, however, they all seem to be preformatted in .mp4, in and of itself, that's not so bad, however, it takes *forever* to fucking convert it.

What are you guys using to convert video for the Zen that is fast, and makes the video look good. I got an Xvid of Pitch Black, did a convert on it, and it looked like ass on the player. Dropped the 700 meg original divx on there, and it looked beautiful.

I don't have a problem sticking full size files on there, but it would be nice to drop them down in size as I'm more of a pack rat then a watch once and delete type person.

I still have my original screen plastic on as well, but i have a billion of the ultra fine scratches on the casing now. Wonder if there's a nice full body protector out there.

Oh, I also dropped it yesterday. About 4 feet on to cement - little tiny scratch on the white side, but didn't skip, and no problems apparently. Praise jebus.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 18, 2006, 6:10 pm

pyrella wrote:I

What are you guys using to convert video for the Zen that is fast, and makes the video look good. I got an Xvid of Pitch Black, did a convert on it, and it looked like ass on the player. Dropped the 700 meg original divx on there, and it looked beautiful.

You dont need to convert the xvid, just need to convert the audio part.

I use Jet Audio (there is a post on this earlier in this thread) and it takes like 5 mins to convert the AC3 audio of a movie to something the Zen Vision will recognize. Im at work so can't see if that was divx only or xvid as well. Let me know if you can't find a hacked version of Jet Audio and I'll send you it.

When you install Jet Audio...under the start menu you'll see "Jet Toys" that will have a few utilities...one is "Video Converter"

....actually I just uploaded it to my VV directory. (look under the non comic folder for it) ~15mb

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 19, 2006, 8:05 am

I just looked at Jet Audio again. The correct jetToy to use is "Video Format Converter to AVI" and "Transcode to MP3 if source is not MP3" (that's what you need to convert eh AC3 audio to something the Zen will play)

But to save time, for the video part, select "Copy (do not trancode)" so it only converts the audio. Or you can select "Transcode to Xvid if source is not DivX/Xvid"

Works great. You can choose the bitrate etc and doesnt take more than 5 mins or so.

Looks like the last one I conveter to 768kbps for the video stream and 160kbps for the audio.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » April 21, 2006, 8:23 am

pyrella wrote:I got the zencast software, and rss'd a few feeds, however, they all seem to be preformatted in .mp4, in and of itself, that's not so bad, however, it takes *forever* to fucking convert it.

Ultra Quicktime Converter did the trick for .mpv and .m4v

it's pretty fast converting to Divx. Xvid takes a little longer. Check your PMs.

I'm watching Videocast Diggnation. Pretty entertaining. Took about 6 minutes to convert a 250mb file from m4v to divx. For anything other than the quicktime crap, I'd still use Jet Audio.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » April 30, 2006, 11:51 am

The only version I have seen so far is the 30 gig version, any idea if they are planning on releasing one with more storage?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 6, 2006, 6:44 am

Some of you iPod (ewww) users might want to check out Rockbox (replaces the iPods firmware)

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6450_7-651 ... =cnetfd.sd

http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WhyRockbox

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 6, 2006, 7:38 am

Here's a nice reference link for Zen Owners and potential buyers:

http://www.epizenter.net/e107_plugins/f ... c.php?1070

has links to reviews and also links to skins/cases, wayts to convert videos, etc.

Specific forums:

Skins/Cases:

http://www.epizenter.net/e107_plugins/f ... rum.php?27

Audio/Video conversion:

http://www.epizenter.net/e107_plugins/f ... rum.php?28

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » May 6, 2006, 12:10 pm

so i'm going to summarize this thread real quick

zen vision player: versatile, affordable, performer good for people who have tens of hours to do nothing better than tweak their digital audio player.

ipod: premium content, premium software and usability, if you want you can mount a bootable linux partition on your disk

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 6, 2006, 12:27 pm

Voronwë wrote:so i'm going to summarize this thread real quick

zen vision player: versatile, affordable, performer good for people who have tens of hours to do nothing better than tweak their digital audio player.

ipod: premium content, premium software and usability, if you want you can mount a bootable linux partition on your disk

Wow, you forgot

Zen Vision M:

better sound
better screen
compatible with more formats
FM Tuner
mic/FM recording
longer battery life
not limited to iTunes for premium content

iPod:

-grandma recognizes the name
-people think you're cool when you walk by with one

I disagree with usability as well. Zen is easy to use and I like the extra physical button layout better than the circle thing on the iPod. You can also partition part of the Zen HD to be used for storage as well.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » May 6, 2006, 2:01 pm

Voronwë wrote:so i'm going to summarize this thread real quick

zen vision player: versatile, affordable, performer good for people who have tens of hours to do nothing better than tweak their digital audio player.

ipod: premium content, premium software and usability, if you want you can mount a bootable linux partition on your disk

I have had my creative zen touch (non video mp3 player) for about a year and a half now and there really wasn't much (if any) tweaking that needed to be done. I downloaded a firmware update a few months ago because occasionally I would have problems transferring files (supposedly a bug involving the zen software and media player not being nice to each other) but that was easy and made the problem go away. I don't buy many mp3s directly, the vast majority of ones I have are ripped from my own CDs. When I do buy an mp3 directly I do it through Rhapsody which interfaces directly with the Zen Touch painlessly.

If I get another player I will probably lean toward another Creative one since I have been happy with it. I have looked at my sister's video ipod too though and it seems to work fine as well (and she is happy with it).

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » May 7, 2006, 1:29 am

you dont need itunes for premium content (whatever that means). if by premium content you mean movies, tv shows or whatever, all of those are available outside of itunes. or to make it simpler you can convert all your videos to mp4, and it runs well on ipod.

and who gives a fuck about customization when you are the only one who uses it?

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » May 16, 2006, 12:04 pm

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060515-6838.html

The "Zen Patent": Creative sues Apple over media player interface
5/15/2006 8:13:08 PM, by Tanya Klowden

Digital music and video player manufacturer Creative has filed a lawsuit today against Apple in the US District Court for the Northern District of California, seeking an injunction and increased damages for Apple Computer Inc.'s "willful infringement" of Creative's self-termed Zen Patent. In addition, Creative has filed a complaint with the US International Trade Commission seeking to bar Apple from marketing, importing, and selling the iPod and iPod nano in the US.

Nine months ago, Creative was awarded a patent for an interface for a digital music player. Patent 6,928,433, referred to as the "Zen Patent" by Creative, rather broadly describes its innovation:

A method of selecting at least one track from a plurality of tracks stored in a computer-readable medium of a portable media player configured to present sequentially a first, second, and third display screen on the display of the media player, the plurality of tracks accessed according to a hierarchy, the hierarchy having a plurality of categories, subcategories, and items respectively in a first, second, and third level of the hierarchy

Sound familiar? If you own an iPod, it should. Creative lost no time in pointing out the similarities with Apple's own well-known digital music player interface. In an interview with the BBC last December, Creative Technology CEO Sim Wong Hoo put Apple on notice:

We will pursue all manufacturers that use the same navigation system. This is something we will pursue aggressively. Hopefully this will be friendly, but people have to respect intellectual property.

With Apple holding around 80 percent of the portable digital music player market and Creative's stock price at an all-time low, Creative may be turning to the unfortunate market model of trying to litigate its way into profitability. Apple will continue to contest the patent; however Creative's patent filing in January 2001 came long before Apple's 2002 submission (which was denied).

One clue to how this case will play out may come from the long-running, high-profile battle between Research In Motion and patent-holding company NTP. In order to avoid the possible enforcement of an injunction barring RIM from selling BlackBerry products and operating its wireless e-mail network, RIM settled the infringement case for US$612.5 million.

Given today's Supreme Court ruling in the eBay patent infringement case, it may prove difficult for Creative to get an injunction against Apple right off the bat. With iPod and other "Music Related Products and Services" making up nearly half of Apple's revenue last quarter, Apple certainly won't go down without a long, bitter fight. More likely, Creative will push for a rather large sum in damages and a hefty licensing fee to bring in continuing revenues for the floundering music player manufacturer. Either way, Apple has as much, if not more at stake than in its recent battle with Apple Corps Ltd. and will be spending a lot of time and money in the courtroom defending its digital music empire.

noel · Post by **noel** » May 16, 2006, 12:05 pm

'Cause if you can't innovate... LITIGATE!

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » May 16, 2006, 12:34 pm

Or to play devil's advocate...

If you can't innovate... MISAPPROPRIATE!

Creative's patent filing in January 2001 came long before Apple's 2002 submission (which was denied).

(Note I don't own either product so don't care one way or the other.)

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 16, 2006, 1:04 pm

Still loving my Zen. It's primary role is playing Pod/Zencasts on my drive to and from work now.

Hope people take the time to try a few podcasts out at Podcastalley.com and try a few out. If you don't own an iPod (iTunes) or Zen (Zencast Organizer), a free program called Juice is a good one to organize downloaded podcasts. They are MP3's though so a single episode can just be downloaded and played on any player.

BTW, I installed Windows Media Player 11 the other day. It's pretty nice and a lot more intuitive than WMP 10. The real beta should be out tomorrow. I still like Media Monkey for music and Zoomplayer for video though.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 1, 2006, 5:05 pm

Hey there true believers!

I bought a skin for my Zen Vision M a week ago and so far it's been great. It was easy to put on and doesn't adversely affect any of the controls.

Previously, I had used (and still has on it) Palm Pilot film to protect the display face from getting scratches which worked great but this new skin is nice in that it protects the entire player. It also comes with a simple stand with rubber feet to quickly convert your Vision M into a little TV for your desk, etc. The wire stand clamps to the back of the skin when not used and the whole thing is still small enough to fit in my shirt pocket for Visionless Chest Control(tm).

Fry's Electronics has them (including Black skins). They come in a greenish box and the name brand is "Dew" I think. I can't find them listed anywhere but they are the exact same thing as this Kroo brand on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FS ... &n=1036592

I give it a thumbs up if looking for decent cheap skin for your Vison M.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 1, 2006, 7:14 pm

Winnow wrote:The wire stand clamps to the back of the skin when not used and the whole thing is still small enough to fit in my short pocket for Visionless Chest Control(tm).

Dude, how do you use your chest to change the settings while the Zen is in your shorts pocket? Waitaminute...I don't think I want the visuals on that one.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 1, 2006, 8:11 pm

Nice typo catch!

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 1, 2006, 8:27 pm

It would only have been worse if it were in your shirt pocket and you did the Visionless Pants Control.....

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » June 15, 2006, 12:05 pm

This could get interesting: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5082162.stm

Creative filed a complaint alleging that iPods infringe on its patent for software it uses to organise and access music on its Nomad and Zen-branded media players.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 15, 2006, 12:28 pm

Creative on Wednesday filed a complaint alleging Apple imported into the United States and sold iPod devices that infringe on Creative's "Zen" patent, which covers the user interface in its Nomad and Zen portable digital media players.

Creative asked the ITC to issue a permanent exclusion order and a permanent cease and desist order against Apple.

Representatives for Cupertino, California-based Apple were not immediately available for comment on Wednesday.

Creative said the case will be referred to Administrative Law Judge Paul Luckern, who will hold hearings and make an initial determination as to whether a violation was committed. The commission typically issues a ruling about 12 months to 15 months after an investigation starts.

Apple shares eased 81 cents to $57.52 in afternoon trading on Nasdaq, while Creative rose 29 cents, or 6.1 percent, to $5.01.

Looks like it's going to take awhile but anything that gets that APPL stock down! Lets have a look at that Apple stock since we fist looked at it several months ago...lower highs...and lower lows!

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 15, 2006, 1:45 pm

Several governments are going after Apple as well right now due to the way they limit the songs purchased to iPods only. Should be interesting.