opps!

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I don't wanna go on a RANT here but America's foreign policy makes about as much sense as Beowolf having sex with Robert Fulton at the first Battle of Antetum. I mean when a neo-conservative defenstrates it's like Raskalnakov filibuster dioxymonohydrostinate.

"Defenstrate?" Even if you meant "defenestrate," it's used improperly.

What the hell is a RANT?

Apparently it is a gramatically correct and properly spelled expression.

[Funkmasterr]

Its a good thing Kerry didn't get elected, or decision making for our country would have been put into the hands of other countries and people like you.

Yeah, if only they had your mastery of diplomacy, Mr Spit-in-your-face-so-I-can-pull-a-nine.

Fucktard.

Did I say I could do a better job? No, I did not. I would be a horrible politician and I know it, what I did say is clear in my other post and im not repeating myself.

[Sirton]

Its as simple as this.

You believe America is at war against terrorism and ALQ or you believe were at a severe state of police action.

I believe we are at war and almost the entire house and senate gave the president war authorities, without a declaration.

In the Presidents address right after 9-11 he said this war would take many years and even said there would be times of confusion ect., but he said AlQ would be hunted down no matter which country they were in. The congress gave him almost full support after this statement.....Howard Dean even praised the attack as a major victory vs AlQ and the President of Pakistan was upset to save face(Im sure he was happy knowing the man that almost assasinated him was now dead)He also said hanging out with terrorist may get you killed.

Weve been working with Pakistan in the region even, so save the crap just cause ya hate Bush.

18 people killed 4 were major ALQ leaders...at most 6 innocent children were killed...one child reported was prob.Dr. Evils son in law knowing the media. So cut all the innocent shit too in this rat nest...They were having a high lvl meeting and some of there families were there cooking for them ect.

This was a rat nest of ALQ..and Im glad it got exterminated.

[Apostate]

From a strictly pragmatic standpoint, ignoring the ethics of the situation, the question is 'Are the rewards of an operation like this, which violates the sovereignty of an ally and possibly embitters them enough to stop supporting us, worth it?'. Obviously whoever okay'd the strike felt 'yes', but I'm afraid at best that kind of decision is made on the basis of short term military objectives of killing enemies while just ignoring the ramifications on the region politically.

There's a world of difference between aggressively policing the borders of a conquered enemy like Afghanistan, and striking across the border into an ally, be they however poor at policing it. Really think it wouldn't exactly be in US interests if the moderate ally government of Pakistan fell to hardline islamic extremists... considering it does actually have nuclear weapons.

[noel]

Sumdaor, nothing in your last post is "probable", you just randomly pulled an assumption out of your ass regarding his health and tried to pass it off as a near certainty.

You can call it a assumption but its common sense.

I don't agree with that at all. Until you have a corpse, you have to presume that he's alive.

[Funkmasterr]

Sumdaor, nothing in your last post is "probable", you just randomly pulled an assumption out of your ass regarding his health and tried to pass it off as a near certainty.

You can call it a assumption but its common sense.

I don't agree with that at all. Until you have a corpse, you have to presume that he's alive.

I have to agree with Noel on this one.. I'll believe it when I see it. There is no room for assumptions with someone as dangerous as him.

[masteen]

Really think it wouldn't exactly be in US interests if the moderate ally government of Pakistan fell to hardline islamic extremists... considering it does actually have nuclear weapons.

No worries there, because the second Islamic fundies took over, our friends in Israel would glass them before they got the launch codes.

[Cartalas]

Sumdaor, nothing in your last post is "probable", you just randomly pulled an assumption out of your ass regarding his health and tried to pass it off as a near certainty.

You can call it a assumption but its common sense.

I don't agree with that at all. Until you have a corpse, you have to presume that he's alive.

Jimmy Hoffa?

[miir]

he said AlQ would be hunted down no matter which country they were in.

Like Iraq?

[Trek]

18 people killed 4 were major ALQ leaders...at most 6 innocent children were killed...one child reported was prob.Dr. Evils son in law knowing the media. So cut all the innocent shit too in this rat nest...They were having a high lvl meeting and some of there families were there cooking for them ect.

This was a rat nest of ALQ..and Im glad it got exterminated.

We spend a lot of time and money to do things better then randomly killing whoever. If you believe we should search the earth and kill whoever, wherever, without any reguard for civilians/innocents/countries then I find you pathetic and see no real difference between your war and theirs.

Besides, if Pakistan was helping us so much why didnt they take care of the house? I would think they have their own military/police to deal with a couple terrorist and some kids.

[Tuddi2]

It's actually called, *an* AUDIO TAPE. Which was verified by our Central Intelligence Agency so I refuse to see your point.

Yeah we know how dead on the CIA is about these kind of matters esp ones dealing with the middle east. I won't say he is dead, but the fact he hasn't show his face in a year and half is saying something. The man is either dead, or probably severly maimed.


I actually agree with the rest of your points noel! suprise suprise!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4630054.stm

yah i'm sure you'll never hear from Bin Laden again.

hell, even if you kill him or a dozen highranked AlQ members, you think the rest will give up ?

yah sure, keep telling yourself that.

In the Presidents address right after 9-11 he said this war would take many years and even said there would be times of confusion ect., but he said AlQ would be hunted down no matter which country they were in

so like, if your neighbours have a family meeting, and the mom agrees to let the dad go on a hunt and destroy of all drug addicts in the street.
you'll just bend over and let said dad walk into your house, snoop around, maybe destroy some furniture, disrupt your family life, perhaps ruins some family bonds, in honor of his quest to find drug addicts ?

and then if he doesn't find any addicts he'll just go to the next house.

or would you perhaps wanna talk to the people in other houses in your street and ask some questions like "just because he's got a bigger family and lives in the biggest house on the street, he should be able to walk around and do as he pleases on some quest against drug addicts, just because one of them broke into his house and stole from him?"
"shouldn't we have a say on what he does, when it's outside his own home, seeing as how he has no more right then the rest of us when he steps out of his house, on what goes on in the street, let alone in OUR homes"
"and if he suspects something that originates from within our homes, is affecting something within his own, he should be working with us, that is IF we want to do so, and not just that stupid english guy down the street, they dont have any rights to team up and storm in and out of the homes of the rest of the street population looking for some drug addict that stole his wtc-stereo"

[Nick]

It's a bit pointless really attempting to have this debate.

Some people think their government is perfectly in the right to go into whatever country it feels like and kill whoeever it likes until the end of time because 2 buildings got blown up nearly 5 years ago in New York.

Those people believe that thier government does not have to obey the rules of international law because it has a big enough army to stave off any serious criticism with a quick angry lurch towards violence.

The same people then pontificate about how peace loving, free and wholesome their country is and how it could never be seen as the aggressor, and take very serious offence when someone suggests anything to the contrary.

The rest of the world just think those people should shut up and not have any control because it's dangerous for the infinitely greater majority of the planet that doesn't believe in the American lie.

However, as I say, it's a pointless discussion, it's like a banana turning to an orange and saying OMG IM NOT A BANANA IM A ROCK YOU DICKHEAD while the orange just sits wondering how the fuck the banana came to be holding the machine gun.

[redeemed]

They can't all be winners!

If we discovered an alien race on a distant planet that was starving, is it our responsibility to go feed them or should we use them as food to feed starving Africans?

use them as food!

[Noysyrump]

I didnt spend 2 billion dollors per plane to let some Religios zealot blow shit up In MY country whenever he fealt like it.

Islam teaches that you should not allow infidels to occupy your homelands. ALQ bombed the WTC because we had troops in somalia, trying to keep the population from starving. In response to that, US troops now OCCUPY 2 large islamic countries.

Maybe now they shall know better than fuk with the big kids.

[Marbus]

It's sad that the US use to be the biggest proponent of Human Rights, and right now we are one of the biggest abusers.

As the largest most powerful Nation on this Earth we should lead with authority we worked so hard to protect. Instead we are throwing it away for petty squables and justifying our abuses by promoting that somehow terrorist aren't worth the same rights we have... Funny I don't think that is what the constution said.

During the Revolutionary War, Washington made a announcement that all POW would be treated humanely. A few soldiers abused this as it was a new idea but in general most of the British were taken care of reasonably well. It was the exact opposite for the British who killed POW (enemy combatants) on site. Although we were being treated differently Washington and our other Founding Fathers wanted America to stand for something more, so they took the higher ground.

I want a administration that takes that higher ground, not want that subverts it and conditions our people to think it's somehow ok.

Marb

PS - The President was just on the news telling the Nation that Terrorist were different and had to be treated differently etc... my point about them being "subhuman" not on par with the rest of us, ie our allies.

[Noysyrump]

We DO take it to higher ground.

Do you see US army made videos of afganies getting thier heads chopped off? Do our troops drag downed Iragi pilot's corpses through the streets?

Where is this abuse of human rights you describe? 18 people dead because we bombed an ALQ meeting? Well they WERE ALQ were they not? Holding prisoners in cuba perhaps? Well they're well fed and warm. No danger of dying there. Hell they probably even have cable TV.

[miir]

I didnt spend 2 billion dollors per plane to let some Religios zealot blow shit up In MY country whenever he fealt like it.

Islam teaches that you should not allow infidels to occupy your homelands. ALQ bombed the WTC because we had troops in somalia, trying to keep the population from starving. In response to that, US troops now OCCUPY 2 large islamic countries.

Maybe now they shall know better than fuk with the big kids.

I doubt their motives were so simplistic.

It was my impression that the attacks on the world trade centers were intended to financially damage the US. In that respect, they were probably more effective than they ever could have dreamed.

Terrorist attacks against Americans have increased.
Your government is spending billions of dollars per week to wage a war in Iraq against Al Qaeda insurgents.
American infidels are being killed at a record pace.
World opinion and support of America has plummeted worldwide.
The American government is taking away rights and freedoms of American citizens out of fear of another attack on their homeland.


It seems like the sept 11 attacks would be considered an unqualified success.



PS: Stealth bombers aren't very effective against an enemy you can't even find.

[miir]

We DO take it to higher ground.

Do you see US army made videos of afganies getting thier heads chopped off? Do our troops drag downed Iragi pilot's corpses through the streets?

I've seen videos and pictures of prisoners being abused... of US soldiers smiling and giving a thumbs-up by the charred remains of Iraqis... I've read reports of abuse from former prisoners held at gitmo.

Where is this abuse of human rights you describe? 18 people dead because we bombed an ALQ meeting? Well they WERE ALQ were they not? Holding prisoners in cuba perhaps? Well they're well fed and warm. No danger of dying there. Hell they probably even have cable TV.

Why is your government trying so hard to justify and cover up their treatment of prisoners if they aren't commiting human rights violations?

How many of those 18 were innocents and how many were potential terrorist suspects?
Let's say your next door neighbour was a member of a terrorist group and was holding a meeting with 3 of his terrorist friends. What if your military decided the best way to take them out was to bomb the house? I suppose you wouldnt mind being dead as long as the bomb took out the terrorists, huh?

[Noysyrump]

I doubt their motives were so simplistic.

It was my impression that the attacks on the world trade centers were intended to financially damage the US. In that respect, they were probably more effective than they ever could have dreamed.

Terrorist attacks against Americans have increased.

Did the empire state building get attacked? Ohhh you mean combat losses in the occupied countries?

Your government is spending billions of dollars per week to wage a war in Iraq against Al Qaeda insurgents.

Hence why we are the big boys.

American infidels are being killed at a record pace.

see above.

World opinion and support of America has plummeted worldwide.
The American government is taking away rights and freedoms of American citizens out of fear of another attack on their homeland.


It seems like the sept 11 attacks would be considered an unqualified success.

Unfortunate, but true.

PS: Stealth bombers aren't very effective against an enemy you can't even find.

Simply using the B2 as a symbol of American military power, as noone else has anything that compares.

[miir]

I doubt their motives were so simplistic.

It was my impression that the attacks on the world trade centers were intended to financially damage the US. In that respect, they were probably more effective than they ever could have dreamed.

Terrorist attacks against Americans have increased.

Did the empire state building get attacked? Ohhh you mean combat losses in the occupied countries?

Your government is spending billions of dollars per week to wage a war in Iraq against Al Qaeda insurgents.

Hence why we are the big boys.

You missed the point.
More Americans have died to terrorist attacks since Sept 11, and your government is throwing billions of dollars at pitiful and ineffective attempt at fighting terrorism.


Bin Laden is the only winner so far.

Simply using the B2 as a symbol of American military power, as noone else has anything that compares.

The fact is that the war on terror cannot be fought with B2 bombers, cruise missles and tactical nukes.

[Noysyrump]

I've seen videos and pictures of prisoners being abused... of US soldiers smiling and giving a thumbs-up by the charred remains of Iraqis... I've read reports of abuse from former prisoners held at gitmo.

How were they abused? did they remove his penis and shove it in his mouth? Did they slit his throte and pull his toungue out of the hole? or perhaps they slapped him around a little to ween some information out of them. There is a difference you know.

As far as the thumbs up... well thats just "we beat the enemy in 3 days" pride there.

And I'm sure a former prisoner of Gitmo would not want to make things sound worse than they really were. I'm sure he wasnt happy to be there. But he walked away, went home, and probably gained weight from all the nice food we fed him. Not to mention got to learn the power of the media in the US from all the free cable TV.

[Winnow]

Bin Laden is the only winner so far.

Yeah, he won himself a nice cave hideout and respirator.

[Noysyrump]

and your government is throwing billions of dollars at pitiful and ineffective attempt at fighting terrorism.

And on that subject... It isnt like that money just disapears. In fact spending that money has a POSSITIVE effect on the US economy. More $ in circulation means more people able to use it. Almost every peice of US military hardware is made, you guessed it, in the US. It would be worse for us if the money was going to GM or FORD as a lot of that money would end up in mexico or canada (heaven forbid). More people have jobs, unemployment plummets, and the economy surges.

War, as it happens, is good for economic growth. Ask 1930s Germany.

[miir]

I've seen videos and pictures of prisoners being abused... of US soldiers smiling and giving a thumbs-up by the charred remains of Iraqis... I've read reports of abuse from former prisoners held at gitmo.

How were they abused? did they remove his penis and shove it in his mouth? Did they slit his throte and pull his toungue out of the hole? or perhaps they slapped him around a little to ween some information out of them. There is a difference you know.

As far as the thumbs up... well thats just "we beat the enemy in 3 days" pride there.

And I'm sure a former prisoner of Gitmo would not want to make things sound worse than they really were. I'm sure he wasnt happy to be there. But he walked away, went home, and probably gained weight from all the nice food we fed him. Not to mention got to learn the power of the media in the US from all the free cable TV.

Wow, you really took the bait on that one.

So that's how you justify the human rights violations by the US?
By comparing it to the crimes of individuals?

Nobody is arguing that these terrorists aren't commiting heinous crimes. But since they are not doing it in the name of any government, it doesn't fall under the Geneva Convention and not subject to the labeling of a human rights violation. There are plenty worse crimes that happen daily in your own country. Does that make the mistreatment or torture of prisoners any more acceptable?

[miir]

And on that subject... It isnt like that money just disapears. In fact spending that money has a POSSITIVE effect on the US economy. More $ in circulation means more people able to use it. Almost every peice of US military hardware is made, you guessed it, in the US. It would be worse for us if the money was going to GM or FORD as a lot of that money would end up in mexico or canada (heaven forbid). More people have jobs, unemployment plummets, and the economy surges.

War, as it happens, is good for economic growth. Ask 1930s Germany.

Nice spin.

[Noysyrump]

And on that subject... It isnt like that money just disapears. In fact spending that money has a POSSITIVE effect on the US economy. More $ in circulation means more people able to use it. Almost every peice of US military hardware is made, you guessed it, in the US. It would be worse for us if the money was going to GM or FORD as a lot of that money would end up in mexico or canada (heaven forbid). More people have jobs, unemployment plummets, and the economy surges.

War, as it happens, is good for economic growth. Ask 1930s Germany.

Nice spin.

Spin my ass, its how it works. the spin is pretending like the $ just disappears.

And I am honestly asking YOU what those human right violations are. I dont know. My daily news intake is ummm... this forum. So like esplain it to me. are we chopping off penises? I honestly dont know. so enlighten me. All I have heard about is "OMG they were mean to him and tortured him by sleep deprivation..." and that sir, does not qualify as human rights violations.

[miir]

All I have heard about is "OMG they were mean to him and tortured him by sleep deprivation..." and that sir, does not qualify as human rights violations.

Actually, yes it does.
Under the Geneva Convention, prolonged forced standing, sleep deprivation, and exposure to cold are all violations and could amount to torture.

[Lynks]

But since they are not doing it in the name of any government, it doesn't fall under the Geneva Convention

Don't want to go against you here, but you did say that.

[Noysyrump]

All I have heard about is "OMG they were mean to him and tortured him by sleep deprivation..." and that sir, does not qualify as human rights violations.

Actually, yes it does.
Under the Geneva Convention, prolonged forced standing, sleep deprivation, and exposure to cold are all violations and could amount to torture.

Then I for one pick "falling into US captivity" over anyone else's then. I'm sure Canadians lined German troops up against the wall on Juno beach too. Niceness has little place in war.

[miir]

But since they are not doing it in the name of any government, it doesn't fall under the Geneva Convention

Don't want to go against you here, but you did say that.

Technically, it doesn't.

They are still commiting a crime but since they have not commited themselves (formally or legally) to obeying human rights law, the Geneva Convention cannot be held against them. Much in the same way individuals are not charged with human rights violations commited during the commission of a crime such as assault, kidnapping or murder.

[miir]

Then I for one pick "falling into US captivity" over anyone else's then. I'm sure Canadians lined German troops up against the wall on Juno beach too. Niceness has little place in war.

Sigh... if your knowldge of history is really that awful, there's not much point in continuing this discussion.

[Marbus]

How are they being abused? Well lets see...

There have been over 1000 people since 911 held w/o ever being charged of a crime... not to bad though. Problem is that many of them were taken to other countries and tortured because it's "OK" in those countries (not some of those countries our CIA / FBI takes these people too are in the "axis of evil").

It's reported that at least 30% of all the current prisoners are under age 13 many under age 11 but we have blocked the Red Cross from verifing this. Holding Children AT ALL is a violation... much less prepubscent.

Are a many of the atrocities done to American by the terrorist much worse than what may be happening to some of them by Americans? HELL YES. That's not the point at ALL. The point is that ANY abuse or tortue goes against everything our Great Nation stands for and has publicly stood for since inception. Don't get me wrong I'm not niave enough to believe it never happen at all, there are always things we don't know about but the blatent disregard for the standards WE SET is what is appaling... How can we ever expect good treatment for our soldiers if we aren't willing to do the same...

Marb

[Noysyrump]

Then I for one pick "falling into US captivity" over anyone else's then. I'm sure Canadians lined German troops up against the wall on Juno beach too. Niceness has little place in war.

Sigh... if your knowldge of history is really that awful, there's not much point in continuing this discussion.

It was never policy for the US to shoot POWs but it happened, and I'm sure Canadians partook also... but it was at individual levels. just trying to put a stop to the "we canadians would never do it" before that was actually said.

[Noysyrump]

It's reported that at least 30% of all the current prisoners are under age 13 many under age 11 but we have blocked the Red Cross from verifing this. Holding Children AT ALL is a violation... much less prepubscent.

if a 13 year old gets caught carrying a grenade should we then just shoot em instead? or send him home to his mother so he can try again?

[Marbus]

Uh... yea... in a sense but if he truly is a threat he needs to be moved closer to home and provided with education and not housed hardened criminals.

Marb

[miir]

It was never policy for the US to shoot POWs but it happened, and I'm sure Canadians partook also... but it was at individual levels. just trying to put a stop to the "we canadians would never do it" before that was actually said.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that the US and Canada (and all other involved countries) killed POWs in WW1/2... what the fuck does that have to do with human rights violations and the Geneva Convention?

[Marbus]

Right Miir that is the point... sure it's happend but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

Marb

[miir]

Right Miir that is the point... sure it's happend but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

Marb

Heh, I was waiting for Noys to clue in to when and why the Geneva Convention was created.


You just ruined the punchline, asshole.

[Noysyrump]

Umm because killing POWs is against THE FIRST RULE of the geneva conventions. And in a real world it happens. Even by us, the good guys. So people need to understand we don't live in an ideal world. war is shitty and ugly. Bad things sometimes need to be done. And if the worst of those bad things is keeping a guy awake for 4 days to get him to spill the beans, then I call that a good thing. Geneva conventions be damned, If he knows who's planning what to whom where, get him to talk.

If the enemy sends children into American camps with hand grenades, You put those children somewhere were they cant be used as pawns. unfortunatly the idealists are gonna scream "but he's only a child" but its a hundred times better than the alternatives (ie shooting, or sending home.)

Come back to reality folks. Idealism only works in books. Osama attacked us to try and scare us out of Islamic lands, and his actions had the opposite effect, maybe thats why the Empire State building is still standing, maybe it isnt. I for one want the world to know, If you attack Americans in such a way it will not work. never give in to terrorism, as that shows them that it works.

[Noysyrump]

Right Miir that is the point... sure it's happend but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

Marb

Heh, I was waiting for Noys to clue in to when and why the Geneva Convention was created.


You just ruined the punchline, asshole.

It was created prior to WW2. And all sides who signed onto it adhered to it at a national level. Russia and Japan did not sign on. Thus treatment of russian prisoners by germans was not "in agreement" but german treatment of western POWs was.

EDIT ps, before you come out with some snide coment...

First Geneva Convention "for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field" (first adopted in 1864, last revision in 1949)

The 1949 convention was the FOURTH such convention.

[miir]

The provisions made in 1949 are what is in question here.
The US moving POWs outside a terrirory occupied by an army and into other countries who have not signed on are the biggest issues.

[Noysyrump]

The Facility in Cuba is in fact US SOIL. Much to Castro's chargrin. They may be held without "trial by jury" because they are NOT US citizens. they are POWs and international terrorist (suspects). the cuban Facilities are a good location because if, somehow they were to escape, they are still trapped, and wont be able to get home without A LOT of outside help.

Military rules and laws are different than our civil laws. So they can do things differently and still remain legal.

[Marbus]

Noysyrump, are you a parent? Have you had any psychology classes? Do you understand the concept of Satan?

While these questions may not seem relevant to each other they are...

[Arborealus]

The Facility in Cuba is in fact US SOIL. Much to Castro's chargrin. They may be held without "trial by jury" because they are NOT US citizens. they are POWs and international terrorist (suspects). the cuban Facilities are a good location because if, somehow they were to escape, they are still trapped, and wont be able to get home without A LOT of outside help.

Military rules and laws are different than our civil laws. So they can do things differently and still remain legal.

Non US Citizens held in the US and it's territories are equally entitled to due process and have recourse to the US Courts...per SCOTUS last June

The detainees at Guantanamo are NOT considered POWs by the Bush Administration.

The UCMJ applies only to members of the armed forces NOT those held prisoner by the US except in cases in which general Martial Law has been invoked, it has not been. The US military may not violate the Constitution.

The Administration has held the Gitmo is NOT US Soil since we lease it in perpetuity (SCOTUS Disagreed in the same ruling).

[Siji]

It's reported that at least 30% of all the current prisoners are under age 13 many under age 11 but we have blocked the Red Cross from verifing this. Holding Children AT ALL is a violation... much less prepubscent.

if a 13 year old gets caught carrying a grenade should we then just shoot em instead? or send him home to his mother so he can try again?

That's kind of funny actually. A 13 year old child in America found carrying a grenade would be tried as a child and spend time in juvi.

At most.

[Metanis]

It's reported that at least 30% of all the current prisoners are under age 13 many under age 11 but we have blocked the Red Cross from verifing this. Holding Children AT ALL is a violation... much less prepubscent.

if a 13 year old gets caught carrying a grenade should we then just shoot em instead? or send him home to his mother so he can try again?

That's kind of funny actually. A 13 year old child in America found carrying a grenade would be tried as a child and spend time in juvi.

At most.

You are assuming the SWAT team didn't get itchy trigger fingers...

[Trek]

You dont need an ideal world to fight a war on terrorism without becoming a terrorist.

[Tuddi2]

holy crap.

nosyrup is like midnyte, but really really stupid.

it's like watching the twilight zone, and then having the guy at the end say "oh and this is all true .. not kidding" and trying to believe it, it's just so stupid you can't imagine how anyone if decent intelligence would ever fall for it.

i bet nosyrup would if the show was about how the us goverment applies itself to world wide affairs.

[Noysyrump]

holy crap.

nosyrup is like midnyte, but really really stupid.

it's like watching the twilight zone, and then having the guy at the end say "oh and this is all true .. not kidding" and trying to believe it, it's just so stupid you can't imagine how anyone if decent intelligence would ever fall for it.

i bet nosyrup would if the show was about how the us goverment applies itself to world wide affairs.

Holy crap a guy who can't type called me stupid, afk to cry.

[Nick]

I have yet to hear a believable excuse or validation from any American as to why they are good guys and Al Quaida are the baddies.

You are just two fucking peas in a pod.

1000vvs to someone with a legitimate post explaining why the American government and it's supporters are any different from a terrorist organisation with fanatical supporters (williing to die for the cause) at this point.