Is this really legal?

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » December 10, 2005, 7:24 pm

Is that in the old testament or new ? I'm not familiar with christianity to that specific of a degree. But there is a new testament for a reason, it got rid of a lot of the stuff like that that was just not relevant anymore. (at least that was my understanding)

And to answer your question about me jumping from voluntary language speaking in school from the previous topic. Because its part of the bigger picture of this problem as a whole. States are changing their official language to fucking spanish, this is the goddamn US, not mexico, not sweden, not iran, not japan, its the US and we speak English as our official language and that should be the end of the damn story.

See what that does is these states that are making spanish their official language then require children to learn it in school, which is fucking bullshit, theres just no way around it.

laneela · Post by **laneela** » December 10, 2005, 7:54 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:Is that in the old testament or new ? I'm not familiar with christianity to that specific of a degree. But there is a new testament for a reason, it got rid of a lot of the stuff like that that was just not relevant anymore. (at least that was my understanding)

And to answer your question about me jumping from voluntary language speaking in school from the previous topic. Because its part of the bigger picture of this problem as a whole. States are changing their official language to fucking spanish, this is the goddamn US, not mexico, not sweden, not iran, not japan, its the US and we speak English as our official language and that should be the end of the damn story.

See what that does is these states that are making spanish their official language then require children to learn it in school, which is fucking bullshit, theres just no way around it.

Exactly what states are you referring to? Most schools require that you take a couple of years worth of foreign language to graduate high school but don't mandate which language it is you choose to learn.

Neroon · Post by **Neroon** » December 10, 2005, 8:26 pm

I think if this kid wants to talk to one of his friends in the hall in Spanish, that's his business. It's not hurting anyone.

I disagree with the idea that adding multiple languages to a society is a good thing. The main thing that separates humans from all the other animals, is our ability to pass information from one generation to the next. To me, heading toward a universal language would greatly improve that ability. Anything else serves only to hamper advancement.

I don't consider language to define a people's culture, it's just how they communicate. Cultural traditions can be shared in any language.

Breagen · Post by **Breagen** » December 10, 2005, 8:36 pm

The problem is that Zae and Funk are arguing that either the kids are trying to have secret conversations mocking their teachers or are refusing to speak English. If you had actually read and comprehended the article you would know that the student is actually fluent in English and Spanish and only spoke Spanish because he was asked a question in that language outside the classroom in a hallway. Secondly there is absolutely no mention or even suggestion that the students either in this case or in the past were believed to be having an innapropriate conversation. It simply states they did not want them speaking Spanish in the school.

The question of people insisting on speaking a language other than the dominant one of a country really has no bearing on this unless you want to make a completely different thread. The point still remains the kids in this case did nothing wrong other than holding a short simple conversation in a language other than English while between classes.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » December 10, 2005, 9:16 pm

Neroon wrote: I disagree with the idea that adding multiple languages to a society is a good thing. The main thing that separates humans from all the other animals, is our ability to pass information from one generation to the next. To me, heading toward a universal language would greatly improve that ability. Anything else serves only to hamper advancement.

I don't consider language to define a people's culture, it's just how they communicate. Cultural traditions can be shared in any language.

Adding multiple languages is ultimately the only way to achieve a truly universal language. What for example is the english word for yarmulka? for netsuke?

We pull words for culturally unique concepts into english on a regular basis. But those words have to be used repeatedly in their own milieu before we adopt them. It's not as if we can look at a language and decide ok here are all the words we need to adopt into english from X language to express all their cultural concepts adequately.

Languages are evolutionary. They blend gradually over time. Concepts are traded back and forth, take for example the engrish we all use from years on veeshan. It was initially joking, largely but we begin expressing ourselves to each other using those phrases and I find some of those concepts more precise and concise than if I phrased it as I might have prior to my veeshan years.

Think of all the french, german spanish words you are using every day when you speak to others...why do you think you use them?...

Part the utility of language is that it morphs to be more functional adopting and adapting, and I feel that the morphs actually make it far more beautiful ultimately...I can use any of 50 words for the concept of love...each having their own nuances, affinities and feels...English is far from static....what we speak today is almost equally latin, greek and german...we just call it english because that is where those influences first mixed in those proportions....

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 10, 2005, 10:09 pm

Arborealus wrote: Think of all the french, german spanish words you are using every day when you speak to others...why do you think you use them?...

Because otherwise english would still sound like this! http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ballc/oe/LP-all.wav (518k)

http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ballc ... er-oe.html (parent link for that .wav)

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » December 11, 2005, 4:42 am

Just in case anyone was wondering, the US does not have an official language.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » December 11, 2005, 5:19 am

Breagen wrote:The problem is that Zae and Funk are arguing that either the kids are trying to have secret conversations mocking their teachers or are refusing to speak English. If you had actually read and comprehended the article you would know that the student is actually fluent in English and Spanish and only spoke Spanish because he was asked a question in that language outside the classroom in a hallway. Secondly there is absolutely no mention or even suggestion that the students either in this case or in the past were believed to be having an innapropriate conversation. It simply states they did not want them speaking Spanish in the school.

The question of people insisting on speaking a language other than the dominant one of a country really has no bearing on this unless you want to make a completely different thread. The point still remains the kids in this case did nothing wrong other than holding a short simple conversation in a language other than English while between classes.

I was hardly speaking about this specific case, I was speaking about the larger problem I feel this is part of, which if you took your own advice and took the time to actually read what I said you would have picked that up. And I will post about whatever the fuck I want, on whatever the fuck thread I feel like posting it on, so please don't tell me I should do it on another thread because you fail to see the connection im making.

Just in case anyone was wondering, the US does not have an official language.

And I haven't deemed an official color for my shit, but time after time when I take a dump its brown.

Drolgin Steingrinder · December 11, 2005, 7:33 am

And I will post about whatever the fuck I want, on whatever the fuck thread I feel like posting it on, so please don't tell me I should do it on another thread because you fail to see the connection im making.

Just as people should be feel to talk whatever language they want, wherever they fucking choose to? Hmmm?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » December 11, 2005, 8:07 am

Drolgin, being so infinitely right in this matter isn't going to make much a difference to people who are essentially using the argument "COMING INTO MY COUNTRY AND STEALZORING MY LANGUAGE"

Stupid fucking article, stupid fucking teacher, and stupid fuckers anyone who thinks this is how an evolved first world society should act.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » December 11, 2005, 10:39 am

Zaelath wrote:
Arborealus wrote: Think of all the french, german spanish words you are using every day when you speak to others...why do you think you use them?...
Because otherwise english would still sound like this! http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ballc/oe/LP-all.wav (518k)

http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ballc ... er-oe.html (parent link for that .wav)

LOL curious you should pick Cathy's reading...the guy who did the original translations of that is Liuzza, R. M., ed. 1994. The Old English Version of the Gospels. EETS 304. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

Roy Liuzza is an old friend of mine...we used to talk philology at length in my undergraduate days...He is THE shit at OE and Anglo-Saxon worldwide...He'd tell you in a second that a language is not static unless it is dead...

And by the way you use them because they are a better way to express your idea(s) which is why english no longer sounds like that...Don't get the cart pulling the horse...

Neroon · Post by **Neroon** » December 11, 2005, 12:26 pm

Arborealus wrote:
Neroon wrote: I disagree with the idea that adding multiple languages to a society is a good thing. The main thing that separates humans from all the other animals, is our ability to pass information from one generation to the next. To me, heading toward a universal language would greatly improve that ability. Anything else serves only to hamper advancement.

I don't consider language to define a people's culture, it's just how they communicate. Cultural traditions can be shared in any language.
Adding multiple languages is ultimately the only way to achieve a truly universal language. What for example is the english word for yarmulka? for netsuke?

I was speaking more along the lines of expecting eveyone to learn 10 languages to function in society, as opposed to expecting everyone to learn a universal language. The later is simply more practical.

If someone has an item or aspect of their culture that is being introduced, then yes you would use their word for it. No sense making up a new one when one is already available.

This may all be irrelavent with the advent of electronic translation technology. Supposedly it will be coming in the next decade or two (real time translation I mean).

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » December 11, 2005, 12:59 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:All I really have to add after reading your most recent post Drolgin is this. One point I forgot to elaborate on was the language thing. I almost feel like more and more as the years pass, people are coming to the US and expecting as more of them come that we are supposed to learn their language which is complete bullshit of which I will except no argument.

Ahh, so you mean like the immigrants that came over from europe spend time with the indians and learned to speak their language?
Oh wait, they more or less killed them off, and started speaking english.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » December 11, 2005, 2:59 pm

I am not reading this whole silly thread but I want to make some things clear. First most places teaching you a language that is not your cultural one require you to not speak anything else unless you have to, example given is the German and Russian language classes I took in High School

Do I think it is stupid for it to be in the hallway? Hmm yeah but people seem to forget the tower of babel concept was a CURSE, not a blessing.

Bad enough I have to put up with Anglos daily, at least all the other immigrants can learn their language so I do not have to learn all the invader tongues.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » December 11, 2005, 6:42 pm

land of the free

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » December 12, 2005, 1:05 pm

Not being a part of the "redneck agenda" I think American's should speak more languages and we should start those in Elementary school. While I never cared for Spanish I plan on makeing sure my sons learn spanish from a young age, as they get a little older I teach him German as well...

I taugh German to 1st and 6th graders while in High School. We only met with them 2 days a week for an hour at a time. One of the 1st grade classes just happened to be my mom's so she would spend 15 or 20 minutes quizing them 2 of the other days but in general it was a very minimal effort. By then end of that year, our 1st Graders were farther along than the first year High School students who had it 5 days a week... the School System thought the program was an outstanding success but when I left to go to college... they dropped it because no one else would do it for free...

Marb

Midnyte_Ragebringer · December 12, 2005, 1:32 pm

Marbus wrote:Not being a part of the "redneck agenda" I think American's should speak more languages

Marb

Why? Please explain why we should do anythign differently than we do now. Which is give every student the opportunity to study different languages if they wish to. Those who CHOOSE to, probably will make more money in the real world, because they have skills that many other do not. Then again, in the business world, most people speak english.

Explain why please.

Kargyle · Post by **Kargyle** » December 12, 2005, 1:46 pm

For the same reason that we mandate children learn math, or how to read. Because it is an asset. Because it may give them more options later. Because it just might open their minds a little bit. I realize that opening minds is anathema to you, but try not to hold back future generations while you are at it.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » December 12, 2005, 3:38 pm

Actually, learning multiple languages early in life causes the mind to be more receptive to further language learning, maths and music. I wish I had been taught multiple languages as a child.

Psyloche · Post by **Psyloche** » December 12, 2005, 3:50 pm

Arborealus wrote:Actually, learning multiple languages early in life causes the mind to be more receptive to further language learning, maths and music. I wish I had been taught multiple languages as a child.

My brother spoke Chinese and English before pre-school. Apparently my parents didn't do the best at teaching him to differentiate when to use one or the other and he got made fun of, a lot. In the car ride home after his first day he refused to speak Chinese again and now can't remember a damn thing.

I don't know that it helped him in learning Spanish or Math later, but he did do really well in both. I've never heard that it makes the mind more receptive to those subjects.

I wish my parents had taught me Chinese or Tagalog (Thats the Filipino language)

miir · Post by **miir** » December 12, 2005, 3:58 pm

I wish my parents had taught me Chinese or Tagalog (Thats the Filipino language)

I love hearing tagalog spoken.
It's such a colourful language.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » December 12, 2005, 5:15 pm

My point, 2 days later, was that kids can and do try to circumvent teacher supervision by using foreign language. Attempting to place a the burden of understanding WTF the little bastards (not racism here, all kids are shits) are saying on the teachers is unrealistic.

Also, an argument could be made that all of school, from first bell to final dismissal, is an academic environment, especially for kids who are not naitive English speakers. They're not going to get immersion at home (usually it's the opposite) so if they aren't immersed at school, then when are they gonna get it? When they try to get into college?

Reminds me of some Czech kids I knew in high school. Most of them spoke little English, but you never heard them speaking Czech, even at lunch they would be speaking English to each other. I knew this one girl through band, so I asked her why. Their parents had told them not to. They knew that they would never really learn unless they were speaking it daily, not just listenting, but fully interacting in a way not possible in a class of 30-40 other kids.

Sub-cultures are fine, unless they prevent you from participating in soceity as a whole.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » December 12, 2005, 5:30 pm

Why?

Primarily because of what Arb alluded too. Studying multiple languages early on help the mind expand. Do you know another language? well enough to think in it? If so then you have helped to develop additional nural pathways that allow your everyday actions to be 2 different things in your mind.

Early education is the key, not necessarly preschool but I think kids should have a chance to learn another language in Elementary School. Not only will it help in their diversity in regards to thinking, which is the main goal, but hopefully it will also give them a little respect for another culture rather than being a bigot.

The diversity of culture and history throughout our world are a wonderful and enlightening thing to study. They help you understand why people do what they do (both good AND bad) and how we can better ourselves from it. As has been said numerous time, if we don't learn from history we are bound to repeat it...

As far as "redneck agenda" I should have put that in quotes I guess... was listening to Green Day on the way in this morning and had American Idiot running through my head.

My goal as a parent is to raise sons that can think, that can evaluate the good / bad of a situation and do the right thing. Not because someone "told" them it was the right thing but because it's the right thing to do morally. Heh, I'm saying I expect them to always make the right decisions, none of us ever do, but it's my job to do all that I can to help them become intelligent, helpful and gifted adults. I think knowing more than one language will help them do that... luckly a lot of other smart people agree with me.

In regards to the kids speaking spanish at school? That's not something you can send someone home for in public school, private? sure, not public. One reason is that we do NOT have a national language, thus we can't MAKE anyone speak anything. Personally I think we should and I think it should be English and I think people should have to learn English for our educational system. Maybe if we did that it would free up some of these bi-lingual teachers to teach all of our kids Spanish or another language earlier in life

Marb