Is this really legal?

[Sendarie]

Discuss:


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10372148/

KANSAS CITY, Kan. - Most of the time, 16-year-old Zach Rubio converses in clear, unaccented American teen-speak, a form of English in which the three most common words are "like," "whatever" and "totally." But Zach is also fluent in his dad's native language, Spanish -- and that's what got him suspended from school.

"It was, like, totally not in the classroom," the high school junior said, recalling the infraction. "We were in the, like, hall or whatever, on restroom break. This kid I know, he's like, 'Me prestas un dolar?' ['Will you lend me a dollar?'] Well, he asked in Spanish; it just seemed natural to answer that way. So I'm like, 'No problema.' "

But that conversation turned out to be a big problem for the staff at the Endeavor Alternative School, a small public high school in an ethnically mixed blue-collar neighborhood. A teacher who overheard the two boys sent Zach to the office, where Principal Jennifer Watts ordered him to call his father and leave the school.

Watts, whom students describe as a disciplinarian, said she can't discuss the case. But in a written "discipline referral" explaining her decision to suspend Zach for 1 1/2 days, she noted: "This is not the first time we have [asked] Zach and others to not speak Spanish at school."

Since then, the suspension of Zach Rubio has become the talk of the town in both English and Spanish newspapers and radio shows. The school district has officially rescinded his punishment and said that speaking a foreign language is not grounds for suspension. Meanwhile, the Rubio family has retained a lawyer, who says a civil rights lawsuit may be in the offing.

National debate
The tension here surrounding that brief exchange in a high school hall reflects a broader national debate over the language Americans should speak amid a wave of Hispanic immigration.

The National Council of La Raza, a Hispanic advocacy group, says that 20 percent of the U.S. school-age population is Latino. For half of those Latino students, the native language is Spanish.

Conflicts are bursting out nationwide over bilingual education, "English-only" laws, Spanish-language publications and advertising, and other linguistic collisions. Language concerns have been a key aspect of the growing political movement to reduce immigration.


"There's a lot of backlash against the increasing Hispanic population," said D.C. school board member Victor A. Reinoso. "We've seen some of it in the D.C. schools. You see it in some cities, where people complain that their tax money shouldn't be used to print public notices in Spanish. And there have been cases where schools want to ban foreign languages."

Some advocates of an English-only policy in U.S. schools say that it is particularly important for students from immigrant families to use the nation's dominant language.

California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger (R) made that point this summer when he vetoed a bill authorizing various academic subjects to be tested in Spanish in the state's public schools. "As an immigrant," the Austrian-born governor said, "I know the importance of mastering English as quickly and as comprehensively as possible."

Hispanic groups generally agree with that, but they emphasize the value of a multilingual citizenry. "A fully bilingual young man like Zach Rubio should be considered an asset to the community," said Janet Murguia, national president of La Raza.

Broad influence
The influx of immigrants has reached every corner of the country -- even here in Kansas City, which is about as far as a U.S. town can be from a border. Along Southwest Boulevard, a main street through some of the older neighborhoods, there are blocks where almost every shop and restaurant has signs written in Spanish.

"Most people, they don't care where you're from," said Zach's father, Lorenzo Rubio, a native of Veracruz, Mexico, who has lived in Kansas City for a quarter-century. "But sometimes, when they hear my accent, I get this, sort of, 'Why don't you go back home?' "

Rubio, a U.S. citizen, credits U.S. immigration law for his decision to fight his son's suspension.

"You can't just walk in and become a citizen," he said. "They make you take this government test. I studied for that test, and I learned that in America, they can't punish you unless you violate a written policy."

Rubio said he remembered that lesson on Nov. 28, when he received a call from Endeavor Alternative saying his son had been suspended.

"So I went to the principal and said, 'My son, he's not suspended for fighting, right? He's not suspended for disrespecting anyone. He's suspended for speaking Spanish in the hall?' So I asked her to show me the written policy about that. But they didn't have" one.

Rubio then called the superintendent of the Turner Unified School District, which operates the school. The district immediately rescinded Zach's suspension, local media reported. The superintendent did not respond to several requests to comment for this article.

Since then, the issue of speaking Spanish in the hall has not been raised at the school, Zach said. "I know it would be, like, disruptive if I answered in Spanish in the classroom. I totally don't do that. But outside of class now, the teachers are like, 'Whatever.' "

For Zach's father, and for the Hispanic organizations that have expressed concern, the suspension is not a closed case. "Obviously they've violated his civil rights," said Chuck Chionuma, a lawyer in Kansas City, Mo., who is representing the Rubio family. "We're studying what form of legal redress will correct the situation."

Said Rubio: "I'm mainly doing this for other Mexican families, where the legal status is kind of shaky and they are afraid to speak up. Punished for speaking Spanish? Somebody has to stand up and say: This is wrong."

[miir]

Uhm, I'm pretty darn sure that punishing someone for not speaking english is a human rights violation.


What more is there to discuss?

[masteen]

While this kid's case is clearly a case of the principal overreacting, the issue it brings up is real. There are a lot of kids who come to school and cannot speak a word of English. Not forcing them to learn is a disservice that puts them at a disadvantage for their whole lives.

[Voronwë]

are you suggesting that you can legally require a personal conversation to be in English as opposed to Spanish?

That is outlandish. This was not an academic endeavor, this was not a professional endeavor.

This was a personal conversation. If it is OK for me to ask a buddy for a dollar in English, it is OK to do the same in Spanish.

I'm no attourney, but i'm relatively sure, that is covered by the 1st amendment.

[Boogahz]

hmm, one of us misinterpreted Masteen's meaning I think. I thought he was saying that the story was a case of the principal over-reacting, and then he stated that the language issue was a big one. This is where I figured he was basically changing the topic a bit into one where he stated that the children which did not speak any English were basically being set up to fail in the current school system. I did not read anything that made me think he was condemning the student's actions.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

The school could institute a policy and enforce it that would not allow them to speak Spanish. With them not having one in place, then the teacher and principal were both wrong. From the article, it says they had nothing in place.

[miir]

The school could institute a policy and enforce it that would not allow them to speak Spanish

Well, there's a bloody good reason they dont have a policly like that.
Such a policy would violate the first amendment.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Well...not necessarily. Schools and kids aer a whole different world when you are talking about amendments and rights. If they can think up any reason at all that it hinders learning, then they can enforce a policy in a heartbeat.

[miir]

Well...not necessarily. Schools and kids aer a whole different world when you are talking about amendments and rights. If they can think up any reason at all that it hinders learning, then they can enforce a policy in a heartbeat.

I can understand classroom rules, but from the article says this kid was in the hall.


But then again, I'm sure there are other factors that came into play that weren't mentioned in the story. It wouldn't make as controversial a story if the kid... oh let's say... started mouthing off or swearing at the teacher/principal in Spanish.

[Sionistic]

Most likely the kid is an idiot that knows spanish, and liked to curse or degrade the teacher in spanish. The teacher was probably pissed off about it and when he heard him talk spanish, they gave him the slip.

[Kelshara]

"It was, like, totally not in the classroom," the high school junior said, recalling the infraction. "We were in the, like, hall or whatever, on restroom break. This kid I know, he's like, 'Me prestas un dolar?' ['Will you lend me a dollar?'] Well, he asked in Spanish; it just seemed natural to answer that way. So I'm like, 'No problema.' "

Should be a law against that form of verbal communication. I will not even dignify it with calling it a language heh.

[Sendarie]

What more is there to discuss?

The "discuss" line was included in the whole article/post that I copy/pasted.

I agree there isnt shit to discuss. That principal should be seeking employment elsewhere IMO, at least a job good enough to pay for the settlement.

FFS they teach spanish in most schools. Might as well suspend a kid for adding up his lunch money to see if he had enough for an extra hot dog.

[Nick]

As if things couldn't get any more absurd.

[kyoukan]

The school could institute a policy and enforce it that would not allow them to speak Spanish. With them not having one in place, then the teacher and principal were both wrong. From the article, it says they had nothing in place.

no they can't. aren't you bored of declaring that students have no constitutional rights while at school despite the fact that you are again and again proven wrong with evidence from the scotus?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I support it. When in America, speak english. Escpecially in a public place like a school where terror concerns warrant wanting an environment with people speaking english.

[kyoukan]

of course you support it. societies that are bi-lingual are statistically more intelligent that ones that aren't. it would be a lot more difficult to wallow in your stupidity this way.

[Breagen]

Frankly it's ridiculous that they don't usually teach a second language in school until high school. Instead they give students year after year of American history classes which just rehash the same salute the flag BS over and over. If they at lest taught different parts of history it would be ok, but it's stupid that they give so many American history classes when most Amercians don't know anything about issues outside of America and sometimes Europe. This is coming from a history major student too.

It would be much more useful to actually begin teaching kids a second language in elementary school when kids are younger and more able to pick up the language so that if they want to they could even try and go on for a third language in high school or college. Americans I think will be in for a rude surprise if English stops being the lingua franca in the future.

[Nick]

What the fuck ever happened to the whole embracing multi culturalism thing?

[Boogahz]

That's become more of a regional thing in the US unfortunately. Living in a Multi-cultural Society was actually a required course at the college I went to, and I learned a lot from it. It is just unfortunate that it is not required in more places. I think that too many people just automatically consider those who do not speak English to be inferior, and these same people assume that English is the official language worldwide. I wish that I had more exposure to other languages at an earlier age, and I can only guess that the size of the US and the distance from other countries (European at least) is one reason that they generally aren't taught earlier. Spanish is taught even in Elementary now, and I took Spanish in Junior High followed by German in High School. The only time I got to actually use my German (aside from online sources and DWelle) was a trip to Germany after graduation in which I got to go to school in Koblenz.

[Sendarie]

Reminds me of an old but funny joke:
What do you call someone that speaks 3 languages?
Trilingual
What do you call someone that speaks 2 languages?
Bilingual
What do you call someone that only speaks 1 language?
American

[Winnow]

English dominates the world. If English isn't your first language, it's most likely your second. The Swedes rule Pirate Bay though!

Some outakes of an article:

In chemistry laboratories in Jordan, university libraries in Cambodia, and college classrooms in Sweden, an odd language is in use.

The language is English, which is increasingly becoming the language of higher education and science around the world. The development is being stoked by the growing integration of the world economy, with the United States, the one remaining superpower and the world's economic locomotive, at its head.

The trend is also being fueled by the spread of information technology, because a large amount of computer software is written in English, and by the explosive growth of the Internet, with more than 300 million users connecting to a resource largely composed in English. And as colleges in more and more countries compete for the tuition money that foreign students can bring, the colleges are teaching their courses in English, so the students won't have to learn Thai or Greek to go to class.

The development is unprecedented. Not even Latin, the European scholarly language for almost two millennia, or Greek in the ancient world before it, had the same reach.

Flush with the national pride that accompanied the wave of decolonization after World War II, many new nations initially resisted the intrusion of English, seeing it as a threat to their own languages, long neglected under colonial rule. But in the last few years, with students and their parents clamoring for more English, which they regard as a passport to better careers, countries have increasingly opted for what some already call "the world language."

In Moscow, Beijing, and Seoul, thousands of private language schools have opened to dispense English lessons to students, business people, and bureaucrats who want to get ahead. "Without the language, their opportunities are limited," says Elena Ostrovidova, a spokeswoman for the Russian Ministry of Education. In China, where using English could once have resulted in a prison sentence, the language is now on the highly competitive national university-entrance examination. A recent government survey found that 70 percent of urban Chinese have studied English. University professors hold "English corners" in community centers, department stores, and parks around Beijing, where students can come to practice.

South Korea's president, Kim Dae Jung, told his citizens last winter that there was an urgent need for them to learn English. Students at the country's three military academies will be expelled if they cannot speak English.

The trend toward English is well advanced in the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries -- and with it, muted but persistent concerns. Much of the assigned reading at the region's institutions is in English, and if just one foreign student is present in a class, the professor usually switches to English. Graduate courses there are increasingly being taught exclusively in English, as are a small but growing number of undergraduate courses.

The University of Copenhagen, the main institution in Denmark, warned about the dangers of the trend in a 1995 strategic plan: "The fact that English is going to be the international scholarly language in the same way as Latin was in the university's infancy and youth," the document said, "must not mean that Danish becomes the language of the peasants, as it was then."

Now Asian countries are trying to turn the tables. Ninnat Olanvoruth, secretary general of the Association of Southeast Asian Institutions of Higher Learning, in Bangkok, says the region is not just exporting Asian students, but is beginning to import students from Australia and the West. "Most," he says, "do their courses in English."

Laos, Vietnam, and Cambodia have witnessed a linguistic struggle also experienced in countries such as Canada and Chad: the competition between French and English. The last decade has not been a happy one for lovers of French, who have seen their tongue, once the language of royal courts and international diplomacy, steadily displaced by upstart English.

French authorities used to react very defensively to the steady advance of "the language of Shakespeare," as they respectfully refer to their linguistic archrival. As late as four years ago, two private French-language watchdog groups sued the Georgia Institute of Technology's campus in Metz, France. The groups complained that the campus's Internet site violated a French law banning advertising in English. The courts threw out the complaint on a technicality.

But in the last few years, the official French approach has changed from attacking English to promoting multilingualism. "There was a time we were very nervous about defending the French language," says Eric Froment, secretary general of the French Conference of University Presidents, in Paris. "Today it's more [that] 'English is inevitable -- let's lead people to speak other languages too.'"

Bengt Streijffert, a top official at the University of Lund, one of Sweden's large state institutions, says that English is used for most intellectual discourse there and that Swedish may soon just be used "at home and with the dog."

English, mother fucker! Do you speak it?

The rest of the article:

http://chronicle.com/free/v47/i02/02a07301.htm

[kyoukan]

Yes because the fact that english is the dominant language in the world is totally relevant to the discussion and this article.

So do points actually make a whooshing sound when they fly over your head or do you just never notice anything?

[Winnow]

I could care less about the original article. Threads evolve.

[Boogahz]

I could care less about the original article. Threads evolve.

and then they assimilate!

[Arborealus]

Edited: Yeah it would clearly represent a government constraint on individual expression and thus be a First amendment case assuming it is a public school.

[Breagen]

If you look at history it doesn't matter what the dominent language is at the time, it inevitably changes. Two hundred years ago that article would have read French everywhere it said English. Just because English is the current primary language doesn't mean that in 10, 25 or 50 years it won't be something else and the sooner people realize that and actually try to learn something in addition to English will be a good thing.

Of course it would be nice if people learned another language or two just out of interest and desire to expand their minds but that is far too foreign a concept for more and more Americans these days.

[Aslanna]

Of course it would be nice if people learned another language or two just out of interest and desire to expand their minds but that is far too foreign a concept for more and more Americans these days.

Yeah. Long as we have cinder blocks for our cars and NASCR we're set.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

What the fuck ever happened to the whole embracing multi culturalism thing?

Hopefully it goes away.

[Winnow]

Just because English is the current primary language doesn't mean that in 10, 25 or 50 years it won't be something else and the sooner people realize that and actually try to learn something in addition to English will be a good thing.

Chinese possibly could become the second most dominant world language if they go on the war path but I seriously doubt even in the next 50 years that any language will make much headway overtaking english. You don't have the isolation between countries that's existed in the past. Even if a country overtakes the United States, there'd be no reason to change the predominant world language.

[Zaelath]

So, yeah, it's an over-reaction in this case and whilst I don't share Midnyte's McCarthyesque fears about 15 year old terrorists, I don't think you should be able to hold residence in a country if you don't speak the official language (or at least one of, if you're going to wank on about Canada).

If you do speak English, and decide that you're going to hold a conversation in spanish, greek, or qwghlmalian, then teachers (people) are going to assume you're hiding something. Probably something that if you said in English would get you in trouble anyway, so what's the harm.

OK, the contention here is that the kid asked for a dollar. Perhaps that's true, perhaps not. If true, and the teachers don't like you speaking spanish, then why not in English?

Did the teachers actually have to catch you doing something behind the bike shed to discipline you for sneaking around out of supervision, or did they just assume if you're acting like a sneak you should be treated like one?

Oh and Mirr: this is not a first ammendment issue, suppressing someone's right to speak in spanish, when they have english available, is not suppressing their right to speak.

[Breagen]

Personally if someone came up and asked me a question in English I would respond in the same language rather than switch to Spanish just because I happen to speak it also. The kid in question was asked by another student a question in Spanish, which he happens to also be fluent in, and he responded in the same language I don't see how that is grounds to punish him. If anything it sounds like the other student would have been the target as he was the first to speak Spanish in the incident.

There was no mention of the teachers believing they were conversing about anything other than what they said they were saying. I doubt even a brain dead retard could construe 'no problema' as anything other than what it means. The principal in the article even states they just didn't want them to speak Spanish at school, it wasn't that they were afraid there was some conspiracy they were hatching in Spanish that they teachers wouldn't know about.

[Zaelath]

And given we've heard both sides of the story, and were all standing in the hall at the time, we know that all this particular kid said was "no problema"

[laneela]

What the fuck ever happened to the whole embracing multi culturalism thing?

Hopefully it goes away.

You are so fucking ignorant. Your mentality is akin to Hitler's.

I live in the US, speak both English and Spanish fluently and am currently looking into learning a third language. While I speak English at work because it's the U.S.'s official language, you can bet your uptight ass no one is dictating what language I use to converse with my friends or family - to even suggest that it should be mandated goes against the very idealism on which this (what has turned out to be a) mockery of a country was founded.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

What the fuck ever happened to the whole embracing multi culturalism thing?

Hopefully it goes away.

You are so fucking ignorant. Your mentality is akin to Hitler's.

I live in the US, speak both English and Spanish fluently and am currently looking into learning a third language. While I speak English at work because it's the U.S.'s official language, you can bet your uptight ass no one is dictating what language I use to converse with my friends or family - to even suggest that it should be mandated goes against the very idealism on which this (what has turned out to be a) mockery of a country was founded.

That's nice for you. I have my opinion and you have yours. Difference is I don't liken you to a mass murder for yours.

[Zaelath]

You are so fucking ignorant. Your mentality is akin to Hitler's.

I live in the US, speak both English and Spanish fluently and am currently looking into learning a third language. While I speak English at work because it's the U.S.'s official language, you can bet your uptight ass no one is dictating what language I use to converse with my friends or family - to even suggest that it should be mandated goes against the very idealism on which this (what has turned out to be a) mockery of a country was founded.

People wouldn't hassle ya'll out about speaking a foreign language if you didn't abuse the 'privilege' so often to be offensive to people you think can't speak the language.

e.g. I've had friends that didn't look italian be openly sexually abused on the street because it was "ok" because they were speaking italian and she couldn't understand them; until she turned around and gave them an earful.

e.g. 2. I walked into a shop as a child and had the woman say "what you want, motherfucker" in greek because she didn't think I knew what it was.

Fuck you and your cultural diversity bullshit. I don't care what the hell you speak at home, but until this kinda shit isn't commonplace you have no right to demand to use it in public.

[Lynks]

Reminds me of when I went to highschool. We weren't allowed to speak english, french only. I don't think anyone got suspended over it though, we just got this mean look from the teachers. This doesn't make sense to me. Speaking another language at school should not interfere with anything or bring consequences like this unless he was saying something he shouldn't.

[Zaelath]

Reminds me of when I went to highschool. We weren't allowed to speak english, french only. I don't think anyone got suspended over it though, we just got this mean look from the teachers. This doesn't make sense to me. Speaking another language at school should not interfere with anything or bring consequences like this unless he was saying something he shouldn't.

Puts too much onus on the teachers to be able to speak every language in the known world; doesn't matter that it's spanish and that's widely spoken in the US, could be french, could be turkisk, could be klingon for all I care. They have to be able to speak it to know it's "something he shouldn't".

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

Zaelath, I started out by wanting to give you 12 bonus points for

(...) or qwghlmalian (...)

but I'm sorry, you lose any and all credit when you spout such bollocks as you do.

Someone speaking a second language with their family and friends who share that language has no right to speak it in public? I'm sorry? Are you actually advocating that the only legal language be English? Not just as far as teaching or dealing with authorities, but in social settings too?

We've all heard the urban legends about people going on vacation, making some smartass comment in their own language thinking noone will understand them, inevitably leading to the object of the conversation turning around and responding in kind. That's your basis for the condemnation of Spanish? And who invoked cultural diversity? Fuck me and my cultural diversity bullshit? No, fuck you and your myopic idiocy.

Fine, English (or whatever language is the official one) is used in the classroom, but the administration should have no right to dictate the topics or the language in which those topics are discussed outside of an academic setting. And somehow I doubt they would've reacted like they did had the kids been speaking Latin, or German.

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

Reminds me of when I went to highschool. We weren't allowed to speak english, french only. I don't think anyone got suspended over it though, we just got this mean look from the teachers. This doesn't make sense to me. Speaking another language at school should not interfere with anything or bring consequences like this unless he was saying something he shouldn't.

Puts too much onus on the teachers to be able to speak every language in the known world; doesn't matter that it's spanish and that's widely spoken in the US, could be french, could be turkisk, could be klingon for all I care. They have to be able to speak it to know it's "something he shouldn't".

What, the teachers are the thought police now? Is the foundation of your viewpoint that the teachers won't know what the kids are discussing? How is this any of their business? I can see one possible reason for 'outlawing' languages in school: If the situation was one of a total-immersion language course, e.g. foreigners learning English in a crash course. Anything else just makes zero sense to me.

[kyoukan]

I'm pretty sure Zaelath is trolling.

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

I hope so. Sustained asininity of that kind is usually only found in Tory MPs.

[Zaelath]

We've all heard the urban legends about people going on vacation, making some smartass comment in their own language thinking noone will understand them, inevitably leading to the object of the conversation turning around and responding in kind. That's your basis for the condemnation of Spanish? And who invoked cultural diversity? Fuck me and my cultural diversity bullshit? No, fuck you and your myopic idiocy.

There's no legend component to either of my stories, and I don't really give a shit that it's spanish in this case, it could quite happily be latin or german as per your example or any other language (I think I mentioned about five already)

Fine, English (or whatever language is the official one) is used in the classroom, but the administration should have no right to dictate the topics or the language in which those topics are discussed outside of an academic setting. And somehow I doubt they would've reacted like they did had the kids been speaking Latin, or German.

If you're right in thinking this is purely a racist agenda, then I'd be against it. If it's more that the teachers have had enough of smartass students using a foreign language so they can piss in their faces without reprisal, then my support stands.

Sure, there's probably an element of both, but I bet in reality the one has caused the other (which again could work both ways).

[Funkmasterr]

I agree with what zaelath is saying.

What I usually say in this conversation is this- If I were going to move to a different country, I would learn to speak their language fluently first, and that would be the language I spoke.

Vacationing is another story, although I think you should still know a few key words.. But I don't think people just visiting a country is the topic at hand.

In several cities in MN, a couple being close to where I live, the population is fairly dominantly mexican and middle eastern. I am fairly uncomofortable when I am in the grocery store and half the people passing me by are speaking an arabic language.

I don't quite hold the same view as Midnyte on this topic, but I probably do think a little more extreme then most.. I don't want the US to be a place for people to come and set up their own subcultures where all the stores and people and everything are just like back home for them. And please don't anyone preach to me about diversity. Then again, NY wouldn't be the same place (I love NY and want to move there in the future) if the dominican and puerta ricans didnt do just that thing.. So im kind of torn and don't really know what a solution I would be happy with is.

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

Yes, by all means learn english, but are you fucking serious? If you moved to Denmark and learned Danish to the extent where you could speak it fluently, but your wife was American - would you speak Danish with her? No you fucking wouldn't.

You can regulate the language people need to use for official business of any and all kind, but I can't believe anyone would actually want to legislate the language people speak to each other in private, or in public. Actually, I can believe it, it just makes zero sense to me.

[Funkmasterr]

I would most likely end up speaking this language with my family, yes. What I am saying is I feel these people should be assimilating themselves into our culture, not changing ours and creating subcultures.

I realize how some people on this site will jump to saying I am racist or whatever right away, but that isnt the case. I have friends from an array of ethnic backgrounds, and am in no way prejudice against any race more. I hate all people equally actually. It's the shit people do that pisses me off, not where they are from.

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

Assimilation, that's the essence of it. It's a debate of assimilation or integration, similar to the ones that have raged in Euroland for the past 30 years. I don't need to bring up the fact that assimiliation is an oppressive practice whereas integration is an inclusive practice, do I?

Assimilation entails every immigrant is to become a nice little boxed-in good american, none of these dangerous views or languages we don't understand. Let's make sure they eat hamburgers and drink cheap beer like the rest of us, too. Preferably, we don't want non-christians either, because the assimilation of them is too tricky. No, the immigrants we want are the ones that look just like us, think just like us, behave just like us.

How sad. How orwellian. You say that people shouldn't change your culture or create subcultures...how in the world is your society to grow and improve if not with input? Remember the second law of thermodynamics: In a closed system, all things tend toward entropy.

For any culture to remain alive and not fall into stagnation, it must have input. Constant input. New cultural dialogues to challenge and evolve the existing cultural landscape.

The music that you love - would that have existed had your ancestors shared your views? I highly doubt rap and hiphop music would've been in existence had the expression of what some might call 'slave culture' or 'pan-african culture' been outlawed.

I don't have a fix or anything resembling it. But I do fervently believe that curtailing peoples cultural expressions - and language is part of that - is an oppressive and extremely worrying path to step down. It's the first steps towards policing peoples thoughts and beliefs.

[Drinsic Darkwood]

For any culture to remain alive and not fall into stagnancy (is that a word?)

I'm not going to say it's not a word, but I've always understood it to be stagnation.

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

my editing skills are unsurpassed, sir!

[Funkmasterr]

All I really have to add after reading your most recent post Drolgin is this. One point I forgot to elaborate on was the language thing. I almost feel like more and more as the years pass, people are coming to the US and expecting as more of them come that we are supposed to learn their language which is complete bullshit of which I will except no argument.

This would be like half the people in the state of Minnesota moving to Sweden and expecting them to all learn English (not saying a lot don't know english already, im just making a point with relevant size comparison). The people of Sweden wouldn't like the idea and they shouldn't.

All I can say is to all the schools and states making spanish their language, thats fine. But I look at second languages like I look at religion, they are totally up to you to want to participate in- and I hope for the sake of all people involved that no one ever tries to force one of my children to learn spanish.

Secondly, I wanted to make something clear. Although you may have a point, I personally think any and all religions are bullshit and honestly wish people would see how fucking pathetically sheepish being part of a "organized religion" makes them. I do not judge any person moving to this country solely on their religious beliefs. Hell, I wish organized religion was outlawed in this country so I didnt have to deal with the fucking extremist pieces of shit more and more of them are becoming every year.

When I do have a problem with religion is when it tells you that killing people who arent islamic or havent payed your islamic "poll tax" (lol) is making you go to heaven. In my opinion this is a line that creates a very shitty and difficult situation to find a solution to.
I'm not looking to start another religion argument here, but the fact of the matter is their book tells them that lying isnt ok unless its to deceive a non islamic person.. So if this is a foundation of their religion, how are we to know which of them to trust, reguardless of how they look, act think, and what they say. It would obviously be wrong to not let them come here.. but what can you do.
Well I think the language barrier especially in the case of people from the middle east, if they kept their language to strictly at home and in private use, a lot of people on BOTH sides would feel more comfortable either directly or indirectly as a result of this.

Me myself, I take comfort in hoping that my views on religion are right, and that all these assholes from all these religions die and don't do shit but rot in their coffin.. what a waste of such a large devotion of time, huh? I guess not when you are so weak and feeble minded that you need something else like religion to make you whole.

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

All I can say is to all the schools and states making spanish their language, thats fine. But I look at second languages like I look at religion, they are totally up to you to want to participate in- and I hope for the sake of all people involved that no one ever tries to force one of my children to learn spanish.

No problem at all. Voluntary, yes. How do you jump from language participation being a voluntary thing (which I agree with) to people not being allowed to speak other languages?

When I do have a problem with religion is when it tells you that killing people who arent islamic or havent payed your islamic "poll tax" (lol) is making you go to heaven. In my opinion this is a line that creates a very shitty and difficult situation to find a solution to.
I'm not looking to start another religion argument here, but the fact of the matter is their book tells them that lying isnt ok unless its to deceive a non islamic person.. So if this is a foundation of their religion, how are we to know which of them to trust, reguardless of how they look, act think, and what they say. It would obviously be wrong to not let them come here.. but what can you do.

Take a look at Leviticus for some fun reading, then. Christians think that blasphemers should be stoned to death. How can we trust them? Regardless of how they look, act, think, regardless of what they say. Their religion tells them to keep heathens as slaves, how can we trust them?