Roe vs Wade

Nick · Post by **Nick** » January 27, 2005, 2:33 pm

Midnyte if I didn't know you were just pointlessly trolling I may almost have taken you seriously for a second

Midnyte_Ragebringer · January 27, 2005, 2:51 pm

Teenybloke wrote:Midnyte if I didn't know you were just pointlessly trolling I may almost have taken you seriously for a second

Wrong again.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · January 27, 2005, 2:53 pm

Lynks wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Anyone who thinks they know how everyone else thinks and feels is creating a frightening world and is also horribly naive.
http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/view ... hp?t=12994

True dat, true dat.

Apples to oranges, yet again. Just because you don't agree with my suggestion doesn't mean I think I know how everyone else feels and thinks. Try again.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 27, 2005, 2:56 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: Anyone who thinks they know how everyone else thinks and feels is creating a frightening world and is also horribly naive.

True. You can't say everyone will just not have sex because of stricter abortoin laws. You also can't say everyone will beat their GFs with baseball bats or throw them down the stairs.

However I think the abuse will happen more often and things will be more dangerous if said laws are put into effect. I don't think the pro of some people abstaining just because of this law outweighs the con of illegal abortions becomming way more common, or the money going outside of the country to support out of country abortions.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · January 27, 2005, 3:07 pm

Lohrno wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: Anyone who thinks they know how everyone else thinks and feels is creating a frightening world and is also horribly naive.
True. You can't say everyone will just not have sex because of stricter abortoin laws. You also can't say everyone will beat their GFs with baseball bats or throw them down the stairs.

However I think the abuse will happen more often and things will be more dangerous if said laws are put into effect. I don't think the pro of some people abstaining just because of this law outweighs the con of illegal abortions becomming way more common, or the money going outside of the country to support out of country abortions.

I would think far more people would abstain or use protection than would beat the mothers or have illegal abortions. Then again I am thinking positive and I don't truly know and neither do you

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 27, 2005, 3:19 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: I would think far more people would abstain or use protection than would beat the mothers or have illegal abortions. Then again I am thinking positive and I don't truly know and neither do you

Perhaps, but do you believe that it's okay to have that at a cost of an increase in abortion related fatalities and injuries?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · January 27, 2005, 4:01 pm

Lohrno wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: I would think far more people would abstain or use protection than would beat the mothers or have illegal abortions. Then again I am thinking positive and I don't truly know and neither do you
Perhaps, but do you believe that it's okay to have that at a cost of an increase in abortion related fatalities and injuries?

It depends what you feel is right whether you feel that is okay or not. Often when somethign very important needs to be done, sacrifices have to be made.

If you want a new computer and need to save money for it, you will have to sacrifice. Do you feel it is right to have to sacrifice going to Starbucks 5 days a week just so you can have a new computer? Don't you see how you will be affecting the bottomline of those employed at Starbucks by doing this? Silly huh?

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 27, 2005, 4:08 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: It depends what you feel is right whether you feel that is okay or not. Often when somethign very important needs to be done, sacrifices have to be made.

If you want a new computer and need to save money for it, you will have to sacrifice. Do you feel it is right to have to sacrifice going to Starbucks 5 days a week just so you can have a new computer? Don't you see how you will be affecting the bottomline of those employed at Starbucks by doing this? Silly huh?

So you feel that the sacrifice of more people dying and being injured while trying to have unsanctioned abortions and the sacrifice of people's freedoms who do not believe in your ethical code is acceptable for the benefit of fewer people having sex and abortions?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · January 27, 2005, 4:16 pm

Lohrno wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: It depends what you feel is right whether you feel that is okay or not. Often when somethign very important needs to be done, sacrifices have to be made.

If you want a new computer and need to save money for it, you will have to sacrifice. Do you feel it is right to have to sacrifice going to Starbucks 5 days a week just so you can have a new computer? Don't you see how you will be affecting the bottomline of those employed at Starbucks by doing this? Silly huh?
So you feel that the sacrifice of more people dying and being injured while trying to have unsanctioned abortions and the sacrifice of people's freedoms who do not believe in your ethical code is acceptable for the benefit of fewer people having sex and abortions?

That's not what I said. I said what I said. Read it. That's my point of view. My opinion on your silly never ending string of 3-year old questions. Do you require this much verification in real life? Do you annoy the fuck out of everyone you talk to with one clarifying question after another? Can you not piece together anything? (Enough questions for you?)

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 27, 2005, 4:24 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: It depends what you feel is right whether you feel that is okay or not. Often when somethign very important needs to be done, sacrifices have to be made.

I am asking you to clarify what you mean by this. Do you think that the benefits outweigh the costs? You seem to be talking but I haven't noticed you take a stance one way or the other. You imply that the benefits might outweigh the costs, and I am asking you to outright say it if this is the case or deny it if not.

Can you not piece together anything?

Are you so much afraid of making a statement that you cannot retract that you have to hide it behind implied statements?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » January 27, 2005, 4:27 pm

Mid ffs you listen to Tool, surely you can comprehend that although you may want to look at the world through rose tinted specs it does not in fact mean those assumptions are correct.

Of course I do not know what EVERYONE thinks, nor do I claim to, but I sure as fuck can see that the vast majority of people here express a similiar view to myself in regards to taking a regressive stance on abortion, although possibly a little less vocally

Therefore I can get an idea, on a small scale whether I happen to be totally unrealistic in my opinions, or naive, or whatever. Of course I will stick with my own thoughts but I will try and be realistic (although I accept in the long run moaning about Bush is somewhat pointless, it is vary fun!...for example)

I digress,

Let me ask you, have you ever been involved in a situation where the concept of abortion may arise? Do you know what it is like? At all?
Why do you assume less people would have less sex? Is there anything of any substance to suggest your views may be actually true? Apart from blind assumption?

I am actually interested to know this, so don't take it as a flame.

It is not as black and white as your optimistic mind would like to believe,

Or is it Midnyte?

Edit: By the way my stance is abortions for anyone who needs but not after 24 weeks, increased sexual education in schools, institutions where sex ed and pills/condoms can be distributed cheaply.

In the long run I think this will work, only because I 'assume' that people having more knowledge on a subject on a grand scale in a sensible way is the best way to deal with various problems like underage pregnancies, accidents, ignorance etc.

I feel making abortion illegal will just fuck lots more peoples lives up, cause more unwanted children (like there isn't enough already on Earth) and causing an unhappier society to fester.

mheh

Midnyte_Ragebringer · January 27, 2005, 4:39 pm

Lohrno wrote: You seem to be talking but I haven't noticed you take a stance one way or the other.

Scroll up. I have stated my opinion about abortions.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · January 27, 2005, 4:48 pm

Teeny,

Let me ask you, have you ever been involved in a situation where the concept of abortion may arise?

Yes. When I got my girlfriend pregnant I wanted her to have one. She refused. She is now my wife. I am now the father of an 8 year old and a 3 year old. I personally am glad she didn't do it. I was bitter about being forced into fatherhood before I was ready for a long time. I still have my moments. But, I have to be accountable for my actions and I really love my children.

Do you know what it is like? At all?

read above

Why do you assume less people would have less sex?

Because some people are smart and actually look past today. They look at the results of actions taken at the moment and how they could affect their future. I, obviously, don't prescribe to that theory myself hehe. I presume this just as easily as I presume their will be more illegal and unsafe abortions.

Is there anything of any substance to suggest your views may be actually true? Apart from blind assumption?

Just my personal opinion. Balance. If their is more of one their will be more of the other. You tend to focus on the negative aspect, I try and focus on the positive aspect. They both exist.

I am actually interested to know this, so don't take it as a flame.

When typed like that. I wouldn't take it as a flame. I appreciate your questions.

It is not as black and white as your optimistic mind would like to believe,

Or is it Midnyte?

Very few things are black and white. I agree.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 27, 2005, 4:55 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Lohrno wrote: You seem to be talking but I haven't noticed you take a stance one way or the other.
Scroll up. I have stated my opinion about abortions.

Yet you still haven't ansewred my question...Do the benefits of banning abortion outweigh the costs?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » January 27, 2005, 4:58 pm

For me I suppose it ends at the persons personal decision, speculation being unnecessary for any other point apart from raised awareness and use of contraceptives.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · January 27, 2005, 5:01 pm

Lohrno wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Lohrno wrote: You seem to be talking but I haven't noticed you take a stance one way or the other.
Scroll up. I have stated my opinion about abortions.
Yet you still haven't ansewred my question...Do the benefits of banning abortion outweigh the costs?

Personally I believe they do. But, that is just my personal opinion.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 27, 2005, 5:03 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: Personally I believe they do. But, that is just my personal opinion.

Fair enough. That's all I was looking for. Some data would be nice...abortion related deaths/abandoned babies and birthrates in countries that have them and that have made them illegal.

Personally I feel they don't, but I definitely think that this data would help. Also, the freedom thing trumps most other issues as far as I am concerned.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » January 27, 2005, 5:13 pm

If Family and Values are important to us... and loving parents are required to bring up our kids... how do you justify forcing a woman who wants an abortion to have a child she will resent?

yeah... she'll make a great parent if she changes her mind.. but if she doesn't?? worse than death for the kid.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 27, 2005, 5:20 pm

Fash wrote:If Family and Values are important to us... and loving parents are required to bring up our kids... how do you justify forcing a woman who wants an abortion to have a child she will resent?

yeah... she'll make a great parent if she changes her mind.. but if she doesn't?? worse than death for the kid.

Because she'll magically find god, and become a loving parent. I'm assuming most of the rationale is something along those lines.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 27, 2005, 5:41 pm

Fash wrote:If Family and Values are important to us... and loving parents are required to bring up our kids... how do you justify forcing a woman who wants an abortion to have a child she will resent?

yeah... she'll make a great parent if she changes her mind.. but if she doesn't?? worse than death for the kid.

a d o p t i o n

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 27, 2005, 5:57 pm

nobody wrote:
a d o p t i o n

Most women do not psychologically like the idea of giving their child away. Also, this creates a financial burden on the system. Not an ideal solution.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » January 27, 2005, 6:16 pm

nobody wrote:
Fash wrote:If Family and Values are important to us... and loving parents are required to bring up our kids... how do you justify forcing a woman who wants an abortion to have a child she will resent?

yeah... she'll make a great parent if she changes her mind.. but if she doesn't?? worse than death for the kid.
a d o p t i o n

If the baby is white, sure a pregnant woman will have little problem finding a couple who will pay for her medical expenses for having the baby. Unfortunately the demand for minority babies is not as high and minority women will have a much harder time finding couples willing to adopt a minority child. Who is going to pay the medical expenses? How likely will prenatal care be?

Back alley abortions and self abortions are two obvious issues if abortion is illegal, but you will also see a rise in abandonned babies. Not the cute "left on your doorstep in a basket" kind of story, but the "dead newborn found in a trash can" kind of story.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 27, 2005, 9:16 pm

i can accept that adoption is not going to be feasable for everyone. but more people should consider it as opposed to trying to hide the fact that they were ever pregnant. i have family friends that have adopted 13 minority children between their three families exactly for the reason you stated before. either way, something should be done about the adoption process in general.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » January 27, 2005, 9:22 pm

Anyone who thinks that less people are going to have sex, or that in general people are going to have sex less, is living in a fantasy world.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 27, 2005, 9:35 pm

Siji wrote:Anyone who thinks that less people are going to have sex, or that in general people are going to have sex less, is living in a fantasy world.

did i say anything that would lead anyone to believe i thought outlawing abortion would lead to less sex? or were you not talking to me. my point is, don't have an abortion ONLY to hide your pregnancy.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » January 27, 2005, 9:39 pm

It amuses me that most of the people in the "pro-life" camp are deeply religious, so apparently believe all human biology was designed by God, but the desire to get naked and fuck was the Devil convincing a couple of virgins to eat of the Tree of Knowledge.

Cause, you know... God can do everything, except create a rock so heavy he can't lift it, or smite Satan, or not plant a special tree where it will cause most harm, etc, etc.

So, back to the bible belt and it's fantasy view of human behaviour.. we're designed to reproduce, preferrably with as many different mates as possible for genetic diversity. Left alone without benefit of "TV introducing kids to sex and drugs" and without parents about to instill taboos, children will begin to have sex w/ each other before they're even in their teens.

Despite all that, you think you can legislate sex, when you couldn't even ban alcohol because it was too easy to get. HAH.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 27, 2005, 10:21 pm

Lohrno wrote:
nobody wrote:
a d o p t i o n
Most women do not psychologically like the idea of giving their child away. Also, this creates a financial burden on the system. Not an ideal solution.

but they psychologically like the idea of killing it? who pays for abortions at clinics anyway? um i think i do, no? and abortion is ideal? this is an issue very close to me. i have close friends and family who have experienced both sides of the issue. yes it's hard to give up a kid but waaa. life is hard, eh?

i am religious zealath, but not deeply. i never said anything about sex. if you choose to have sex it is your right and priviledge. but people should be willing to live with their consequences, in all aspects of life.

and about the bible belt's fantasy fiew...we are made to reproduce and have natural urges but should have the strength to overcome weaknesses. self control should apply in all aspects of our lives. i'm not saying abstain. sex is not bad the consequences if you're not careful can be. at least suck it up and try to live with them.

noel · Post by **noel** » January 27, 2005, 10:27 pm

nobody wrote:i am religious zealath, but not deeply. i never said anything about sex. if you choose to have sex it is your right and priviledge. but people should be willing to live with their consequences, in all aspects of life.

and about the bible belt's fantasy fiew...we are made to reproduce and have natural urges but should have the strength to overcome weaknesses. self control should apply in all aspects of our lives. i'm not saying abstain. sex is not bad the consequences if you're not careful can be. at least suck it up and try to live with them.

That's all well and good, and if that's what you believe for yourself, I support you in it.

If you think for one second that you should be able to enforce your views anyone other than yourself you can go fuck yourself.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 27, 2005, 10:36 pm

i do not, i think sex should be on tv right along with violence and dirty words (to a degree). if you dont want you kids to see it then pay attention to them.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 27, 2005, 10:49 pm

nobody wrote: but they psychologically like the idea of killing it?

Most people who have abortions do not agree that it is a child yet. When it leaves the womb, there is no question.

who pays for abortions at clinics anyway? um i think i do, no? and abortion is ideal?

Last I heard they were funded through donations. Feel free to dispute that if you have evidence to the contrary though.

this is an issue very close to me. i have close friends and family who have experienced both sides of the issue. yes it's hard to give up a kid but waaa. life is hard, eh?

I would argue that bringing a child into the system that the mother did not want/could not have is not better. Perhaps they will be adopted, but there will be a time that we have to pay for this anyways. If federally funded, an abortion is cheaper than supporting it for years until someone decides they want it.

i am religious zealath, but not deeply. i never said anything about sex. if you choose to have sex it is your right and priviledge. but people should be willing to live with their consequences, in all aspects of life.

And if she gets raped? If you are arguing that it's morally wrong to perform abortions then you have to force her to have the baby anyways. After all, killing "children" (unborn fetuses really) is wrong right? So two wrongs don't make a right...

and about the bible belt's fantasy fiew...we are made to reproduce and have natural urges but should have the strength to overcome weaknesses. self control should apply in all aspects of our lives. i'm not saying abstain. sex is not bad the consequences if you're not careful can be. at least suck it up and try to live with them.

Even if you are careful, shit happens. Condoms fail 2% of the time (statistically). Diaphragms don't always work, etc.

"So don't have sex if the consequences are so rough..." I hear you about to say.

I'll head you off at the pass here. If you are poor are you saying that this 2% chance should prevent poor people from having sex at all? Sounds kind of elitist to me...Hell you could be emotionally unstable, or there could be some other compelling reason. I think it bears repeating that most women do not get abortions on a whim. Even in a clinic, it's not usually safer than having the baby, as well as not being a pleasant experience.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 27, 2005, 11:37 pm

Lohrno wrote:Even if you are careful, shit happens. Condoms fail 2% of the time (statistically). Diaphragms don't always work, etc.

"So don't have sex if the consequences are so rough..." I hear you about to say.

someone i care about very much had this happen and gave up her twins rather than bring them up knowing she couldn't support them. absolutely the hardest decision of her life but has never had any regret.

i do not personally agree with but can conceed to early term abortions being legal. i personally support the over the counter morning after pill. not as a method of birth control but in the case of that 2%

yes i was mistaken about the funding issue. i would not question govt funding for rape (early term), or health issues however.

btw i also support the death penalty for rapists and child molesters.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 28, 2005, 2:45 pm

nobody wrote: i do not personally agree with but can conceed to early term abortions being legal. i personally support the over the counter morning after pill. not as a method of birth control but in the case of that 2%

Fair enough. The only reason I would disagree with this would be the opening of the door to further legislation which would seek to ban it altogether. If it could be done in such a way that it would restrict any further legislation on the subject...Personally I think it should be left where it is because of other complications, but I can definitely respect that perspective.

btw i also support the death penalty for rapists and child molesters.

You know, in principle I support the death penalty. I don't see why someone who has no respect for life should be let living unless they are clearly insane (no not as a lame defense tactic, I mean genuinely) and can be rehabilitated. The problem I have is that our judicial system is not perfect, and the loss of innocent life (just a reminder, full grown humans, not fetuses - It's not a double standard) is unacceptable to me.

Rapists and Child molesters...hmmm...

It's kind of hard to prove rape in some cases. I'm assuming you mean the voilent brutal attacked in the park and dragged out to the woods kind, not the kind where a boy and girl halfway through the act, the girl goes "wait..." and the guy is already too much into it and has almost totally lost the ability to stop.

I would agree if not for the general difficulty to prove this. Death penalty for statutory rape? No.

As for that and Child Molestation - in some cultures it is okay to marry 12 year olds. Those who exploit children I would definitely agree. But still, the possibility that they had the wrong guy is an unacceptable risk.

So basically I agree in principle in certain cases, and not others. But I don't support the death penalty in general just because it can lead to innocents being executed.

noel · Post by **noel** » January 28, 2005, 3:04 pm

nobody wrote:i do not, i think sex should be on tv right along with violence and dirty words (to a degree). if you dont want you kids to see it then pay attention to them.

I was referring more specifically to your notion that abortion is in some way murder and the moral argument you've made on this thread.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 28, 2005, 3:31 pm

laws need to be "enforced" else we would be an anarchy. it's no different than "enforcing" the speed limit. i don't want to shove my "values" (ie life) down your throat if that's what you mean. i don't agree with gay marriage but as i have said before it's not my place to choose that for anyone.

if it was up to me each state would be able to choose their own policy on abortion and if a majority of the people want it then fine by me. if a strong majority of the people want to be allowed to do just about anything then let them. if it's the wrong decision then it's on them. i will vote against mid and late term abortions everytime i have the chance.

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » January 28, 2005, 5:18 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:No it wouldn't Lohrno.

Not allowing abortions, unless in case of the mothers health being in danger, rape and incest is showing people that there are consequences to their actions.

In cases of rape, it was not a choice of the woman, thus being a rape. If it was her choice, then it wouldn't be rape.

If they reversed Roe v. Wade, numerous things would happen.....Some will chose not to have sex, some will chose to have illegal abortions, some will not change anything. I think it is foolish to just see the negative in any proposal. More bad will come it as more good will come of it.

Personally I would like to see abortions made illegal after the first trimester. The mother has 3 months to decide what she wants to do, unless her life is in danger then it could happen after that.

Three weeks ago today, a good friend of mine and his wife went to have an ultrasound checkup on their baby. The two of them were so excited that they had told all of their friends like two weeks after conception!

It turns out that the baby had a genetic mutation that was preventing the bones from developing. They were told that if they carried the baby to term (they were at 22 weeks at the time) that there was no chance that the baby would ever breath as there was no proper lung development at their current stage.

Two weeks ago, they ended the pregnancy. They are devastated over the loss.

She wanted the baby, they were nearly at the 6 month legal mark (for Florida). She was in no medical danger. Why don't you come down here and tell her to her face that she should have been forced to carry that child to term.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · January 28, 2005, 5:38 pm

archeiron wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:No it wouldn't Lohrno.

Not allowing abortions, unless in case of the mothers health being in danger, rape and incest is showing people that there are consequences to their actions.

In cases of rape, it was not a choice of the woman, thus being a rape. If it was her choice, then it wouldn't be rape.

If they reversed Roe v. Wade, numerous things would happen.....Some will chose not to have sex, some will chose to have illegal abortions, some will not change anything. I think it is foolish to just see the negative in any proposal. More bad will come it as more good will come of it.

Personally I would like to see abortions made illegal after the first trimester. The mother has 3 months to decide what she wants to do, unless her life is in danger then it could happen after that.
Three weeks ago today, a good friend of mine and his wife went to have an ultrasound checkup on their baby. The two of them were so excited that they had told all of their friends like two weeks after conception! It turns out that the baby had a genetic mutation that was preventing the bones from developing. They were told that if they carried the baby to term (they were at 22 weeks at the time) that there was no chance that the baby would ever breath as there was no proper lung development at their current stage.

Two weeks ago, they ended the pregnancy. They are devastated over the loss.

She wanted the baby, they were nearly at the 6 month legal mark (for Florida). She was in no medical danger. Why don't you come down here and tell her to her face that she should have been forced to carry that child to term.

Why would I? That seems to make perfect sense to me. My wife and I discussed how we would do the same thing if put into that position. Why are you calling me out anyway? Because I missed, "and if the baby is deformed"? Jesus dude, chill a bit, mmmkay? I don't claim to know it all, like many here do, so call out someone else.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 28, 2005, 5:42 pm

archeiron wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:No it wouldn't Lohrno.

Not allowing abortions, unless in case of the mothers health being in danger, rape and incest is showing people that there are consequences to their actions.

In cases of rape, it was not a choice of the woman, thus being a rape. If it was her choice, then it wouldn't be rape.

If they reversed Roe v. Wade, numerous things would happen.....Some will chose not to have sex, some will chose to have illegal abortions, some will not change anything. I think it is foolish to just see the negative in any proposal. More bad will come it as more good will come of it.

Personally I would like to see abortions made illegal after the first trimester. The mother has 3 months to decide what she wants to do, unless her life is in danger then it could happen after that.
Three weeks ago today, a good friend of mine and his wife went to have an ultrasound checkup on their baby. The two of them were so excited that they had told all of their friends like two weeks after conception! It turns out that the baby had a genetic mutation that was preventing the bones from developing. They were told that if they carried the baby to term (they were at 22 weeks at the time) that there was no chance that the baby would ever breath as there was no proper lung development at their current stage.

Two weeks ago, they ended the pregnancy. They are devastated over the loss.

She wanted the baby, they were nearly at the 6 month legal mark (for Florida). She was in no medical danger. Why don't you come down here and tell her to her face that she should have been forced to carry that child to term.

i completely agree with her decision in this situation. and can't imagine mid or anyone else feeling different.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 29, 2005, 12:51 am

i have a very close friend who was beaten by her husband and lost her baby. tell me if that is murder or not.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 30, 2005, 7:32 pm

Not murder, but possibly attempted murder of this woman. There should be stronger laws against violence against pregnany women.

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » January 31, 2005, 5:25 pm

Rekaar. wrote:
Lohrno wrote:
Rekaar. wrote:
Fash wrote:if you disapprove
you do not have to have one
do not choose for me
says the baby?
Your opinion is that it's a baby. My opinion is that it has not reached that stage yet. Why should your opinion count more than mine when making laws regarding freedom?
Obviously you want to draw the line at a different point, or you're just plain scared to really think that line of thought to its conclusion so we'll shelve that. We wouldn't get anywhere.

Put simply - what if you're wrong?

If I'm wrong more babies get born. If you're wrong you're supporting the wholesale slaughter of children. Exactly which side is it smarter to err on?

Waiting for your on topic response. Anyone?

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 31, 2005, 5:32 pm

Perhaps I wasn't clear. My response was to illustrate that bad things happen when you ban abotions. It isn't just '"Oh, more babies get born." It's also deaths from improper abortions, abuse, etc. It also leads to babies getting left in dumpsters, killed in "unfortunate accidents", etc.

So your "question" and assumption is fundamentally wrong.

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » February 2, 2005, 4:07 pm

you can't even dodge well.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » February 2, 2005, 4:16 pm

Apparently you can't acknowledge when I have made a proper response either. Perhaps it is just because you don't want to talk about the bad things...

So what do you have to say about all the deaths and injuries related to illegal abortions which WILL happen should it be outlawed?

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » February 2, 2005, 4:19 pm

So what do you have to say about all the deaths and injuries related to illegal abortions which WILL happen should it be outlawed?

Jail time.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » February 2, 2005, 4:23 pm

Thats it, keep crowding overcrowded prisons. Thats a great idea. I guess you don't mind paying more taxes.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » February 2, 2005, 4:32 pm

How about we rewrite some fo the punishments we have set aside for some things, make some things punishable with lighter sentances, increase the things the death penalty is applied to, begin taking controlll of assets belonging to the people inside the system that are never getting out...

Or sit back and bitch about it instead.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » February 2, 2005, 4:38 pm

Akaran_D wrote:
So what do you have to say about all the deaths and injuries related to illegal abortions which WILL happen should it be outlawed?
Jail time.

Jail time doesn't help the mother who tried to perform a coathanger abortion and failed. On a more cold note, don't forget that one less taxpayer is bad....

So in this case, instead of a fetus dying, a fetus and a mother die...brilliant!

miir · Post by **miir** » February 2, 2005, 4:44 pm

So the US should do a complete rework of the entire legal system so that you can have abortion laws that are in line with your religious beliefs?

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » February 2, 2005, 4:46 pm

She tries to commit murder and she dies in the process.
I'm sorry, I'm not going to have a lot of sympathy here.

It all starts with education. As long as the educational system of this country is so badly buggered up, we have no right to even begin making assumptions that abortion should or should not be legal.

Increase education, decrease crime, increase sexual awareness, decrease abortions and increase safe sexual practices, increase punishments, decrease offenders. This is a utopian view, and it's not likely to happen.

But the only way TO utopia is through hell. May as well get started now.

edit: Miir, this is another issue where my religious belifs don't factor into it. I've never called out "IF YOU ABORT GOD WILL SMITE YOU!". If you abort, you're stopping a life from forming. If your life isn't at risk and the baby does not have a problem such that it would be unable to survive out of the womb, it shouldn't be an option, period.

I'm sorry you don't see it that way.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » February 2, 2005, 4:49 pm

Sigh. My heart goes out to the loss of life that is you.

VeeshanVault

Roe vs Wade

Should Roe v Wade be overturned?