Roe vs Wade

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 23, 2005, 12:17 am

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington ... wade_x.htm

in light of the anniversery, just wanted to see what everyone's thoughts were.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » January 23, 2005, 12:35 am

Life endangerment only, and I think it should be heavily regulated, legislated, and monitored in all cases. Further, I think more money should go into sex ed to teach kids that if they Are going to do it (and they are), the ways to protect themselves from it.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » January 23, 2005, 12:59 am

This thread is going to be fun to watch seeing as how this is a very touchy topic with a lot of people on both sides. I predict many comments from the Left and Right extremists of the board. I suspect that someone will in some way link this to the War in Iraq making this double the pleasure, double the fun for all spectators.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » January 23, 2005, 1:11 am

I am just going to sit here and laugh at all of those who argue for Iraq and for death penalty but against abortion.

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » January 23, 2005, 1:32 am

here's a synopsis of this thread...

in this corner, ultra conservative males/Bushies who think abortion is an affront to teh babie Jesus!!one1

and in this corner, lefty commie pinkos who KILL BABIES

for the love of god, this is like an election poll. Neither side will ever ever see the other side's point of view.

ps: it's the woman's choice

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » January 23, 2005, 2:27 am

Immoral and illeagal are two very different things. I vote number 3.

Thess · Post by **Thess** » January 23, 2005, 2:28 am

Personally I've had enough abortion arguments on this subject for everyone to know my view. Arguing it anymore is just a waste of my time.

Arsecn · Post by **Arsecn** » January 23, 2005, 2:41 am

Is it too early to turn this into an Iraq, WMD, Bush thread or am I overstepping the evolutionary habit of all threads here?

I voted choice, but am republican, support Bush and our efforts in Iraq. A hearty fuck you to all the whining liberals here that practice armchair politics and do nothing but bitch about USA and Bush... no matter what the topic... always seems to get there.

Semper Fi

Thess · Post by **Thess** » January 23, 2005, 2:48 am

Arsecn wrote:Is it too early to turn this into an Iraq, WMD, Bush thread or am I overstepping the evolutionary habit of all threads here?

I voted choice, but am republican, support Bush and our efforts in Iraq. A hearty fuck you to all the whining liberals here that practice armchair politics and do nothing but bitch about USA and Bush... no matter what the topic... always seems to get there.

Semper Fi

lol, you have to be kidding me. Not every liberal here just whines without trying to help the current situation - I am one of them. I did a lot of damn work for Kerry and have volunteered countless hours with prochoice organizations. I can only actually account for myself however.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » January 23, 2005, 2:55 am

Arsecn wrote:Is it too early to turn this into an Iraq, WMD, Bush thread or am I overstepping the evolutionary habit of all threads here?

I voted choice, but am republican, support Bush and our efforts in Iraq. A hearty fuck you to all the whining liberals here that practice armchair politics and do nothing but bitch about USA and Bush... no matter what the topic... always seems to get there.

Semper Fi

Yes it is so much better to be an armchair general and support Bush!

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » January 23, 2005, 3:21 am

Abortion should not be banned nor should it be a casual option for irresponsible bastards. There is an acceptable middle ground on this, and people on either extreme really upset me. The biggest problem I see is that many conservatives with their "moral values" want to ban shit like sex education/planned parenthood while banning abortion too. That is the most irresponsible and selfish thing they could do.

The BEST way to fix the abortion issue is to provide FREE sex education, protection, etc to ALL Americans so that abortion never has to even come up unless it is an extreme situation. That is the moral value I'd like to see backed by people on both sides of the politcal spectrum.

I'm somewhere between 3 and 4. I used to be #2, but I now find that to be irresponsible and selfish. Abortion should not be an option for teens who fucked themselves into a bad situation. You have the right to choose...that right comes in pills, latex, liquids, implants, surgery, abstenance, etc. After that choice, any life inside you is equal to your own. If you are that 2% who used protection and still got pregnant, I'm sorry, but there are still better options than abortion.

But back to the important thing, the issue is NOT abortion, the issue is EDUCATION!! If we can get that down(which we can't with people like Bush in office), there would be no excuse for abortion besides extreme situations.

For those who say it's the woman's right to choose, period...you are as ignorant as those who think it should be outright banned. Tell me it would be just fine if your best friends or the family you watched grow up never existed because it's the woman's right to choose. My neice, Amelia, 2 years old and the most amazing and beautiful thing on the planet to me is what what changed my mind from option #2. I guarantee if you personalize the situation of abortion, you will regret picking #2. This is not a black and white issue for anyone, so think a bit harder, I beg of you.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » January 23, 2005, 3:28 am

I support retroactive abortion for Aranuil's mom!!!

On a side note, I think it is immoral but should be legal.

Arsecn · Post by **Arsecn** » January 23, 2005, 6:05 am

Thess wrote:lol, you have to be kidding me. Not every liberal here just whines without trying to help the current situation - I am one of them. I did a lot of damn work for Kerry and have volunteered countless hours with prochoice organizations. I can only actually account for myself however.

Was really referencing the posts and threads here... especially after the election win. So easy to QB from the sidelines and poiint out mistakes, criticize, etc. And if I was misunderstood, pardon me... did not mean to lump ALL liberals into armchair politicians... reread my post and it was meant to those who do nothing but bitch.
I am truly glad you are involved and supporting what you believe in, regardless of which party.

Anywho... my 2 cents have been spent. Carry on... Booya!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » January 23, 2005, 9:54 am

I've said plenty on the topic of abortion over the past years on this message board. I'm going to sit this one out or, at the most, will cut and paste some past posts if this gets over 50 posts in length.

RvW won't be overturned.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » January 23, 2005, 6:57 pm

From now on all abortion arguements must be in the form of a haiko.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 23, 2005, 7:01 pm

is that 5 5 7 3? i'm dumb i forget how to make a haiku

Fash · Post by **Fash** » January 23, 2005, 7:24 pm

its five seven five
one two three four five seven
one two three four five

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 23, 2005, 7:59 pm

abortion is bad
it simply cannot be good
and the falcons suck

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » January 23, 2005, 8:03 pm

It is immoral.
The choice is not for you though.
Civil rights for all.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 23, 2005, 8:06 pm

the child has no choice
it's all about the woman
i too had no choice

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » January 23, 2005, 8:28 pm

Doc on the ill tip?
Dilation and curettage
Baby Jesus cries

Fash · Post by **Fash** » January 23, 2005, 8:43 pm

if you disapprove
you do not have to have one
do not choose for me

it's not about the kid
life is not that important
just a memory

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 23, 2005, 8:50 pm

but i wanted one
and someone else chose for me
now i am alone

how can you accuse me of choosing for you when you want to choose for the child and me? and life does suck a lot of the time but it is important. the more you learn in this life the better of you'll be in the next. and that applies to whatever religion or theory you believe in, imo. and if life isn't that important then what is so wrong with killing muslim's in iraq? it's just a memory according to you.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » January 23, 2005, 9:27 pm

there is no next.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 23, 2005, 9:34 pm

Fash wrote:there is no next.

really i cant understand how there can't be, our energy has to go somewhere. i'm not saying it proves there's a God but i'm sure there is a conciousness after we die. there has to be b/c there's so many people i wanna scare the shit out of when i'm dead, heh.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » January 23, 2005, 9:37 pm

You scare the shit out of us now

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » January 23, 2005, 9:38 pm

nobody wrote:
Fash wrote:there is no next.
really i cant understand how there can't be, our energy has to go somewhere. i'm not saying it proves there's a God but i'm sure there is a conciousness after we die. there has to be b/c there's so many people i wanna scare the shit out of when i'm dead, heh.

Our energy returns back to the Earth and gets recycled.

I'm not saying their is or isn't, but saying "you can't understand there can't be" is a bullshit statement since nobody knows the true answer.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 23, 2005, 9:48 pm

Lynks wrote: nobody knows the true answer.

so true so true

Fash · Post by **Fash** » January 23, 2005, 9:58 pm

what energy? When you die the energy isn't being produced anymore. We are a complex system easy to bring down.

it's rediculous to think there's an afterlife for us. what about the other 1.9 billion species on the planet? you think you're better than them?

Rivera Bladestrike · Post by **Rivera Bladestrike** » January 23, 2005, 9:59 pm

Its very easy to believe there is no afterlife. Do you think your average Tyrannosaura Rex is in heaven? What about the ant you stepped on. There is no reason to think that man is special. Its just an egotistical piece of man's conscious. We like to be alive, we like to be special. So we write a book saying we are special and we'll continue to be alive after death. Peopl read the book, they like it.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 23, 2005, 10:09 pm

heh, i'm saying that ALL life continues on in some form after this, not heaven exactly but something. just saying it is a scientificaly feasable explanation. not that it's fact. there's only one way to know for sure though. and i don't step on ants.

Rivera Bladestrike · January 23, 2005, 10:14 pm

Yeah it does continue on... Lets say you were killed and not buried. Your body gets eaten by worms, insects, and whatever they don't eat gets eaten by bacteria and reformed into the soil. Either slightly larger animals eat the insects or the plants use the nutrients the worms and bacteria put back into the soil to grow.

Life goes on with or without you. Theres just no place where a guy in a robe lets you into a gate or sends you to hell.

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » January 24, 2005, 1:31 am

now it's getting dumb
i liked the haikus better
i cannot count to five

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » January 24, 2005, 5:14 am

Yeah it does continue on... Lets say you were killed and not buried. Your body gets eaten by worms, insects, and whatever they don't eat gets eaten by bacteria and reformed into the soil. Either slightly larger animals eat the insects or the plants use the nutrients the worms and bacteria put back into the soil to grow.

Scientific evidence of reincarnation. Not all religions negate scientific fact.

Tinkin Tankem · Post by **Tinkin Tankem** » January 25, 2005, 5:56 pm

I didn't read any of the above posts although I will later so if this is completely off the rails of the thread that is why. Basically I would like you all to ask yourself whether you really agree with it, abortion and should it be ok? If I knew that there would not be a change in the increase of abortions in America I'd be for them. I agree we can't stop nor should we stop people from things that they choose to do. The problem that I have with abortion is that imho I believe that if it was less that you could get an abortion you may be less incline to take the risks of getting pregnant. I know that with the vast majority of women I've been with we've discussed what we'd do if she were to get pregnant. Every time it was the same agreement. I am guilty myself of taking a woman that I was involved with to the clinic for the day after pill. Whether you want to consider that a true abortion or not since we don't know for sure if she would have been pregnant or not is up to you. What it is that I am getting at is whether or not you think more regulations on abortions would decrease the amount needed thus slowing the spread of std's, unwanted children, and whatever else goes along with the disadvantages of sex.

Tinkin, the Gnome,

P.S. Please discuss the opinion, how yours may differ or agree. I'd rather not start a flame war of it's a woman's choice and the "you're killing babies" argument, we've hashed through the whole thing.

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » January 25, 2005, 10:25 pm

Fash wrote:if you disapprove
you do not have to have one
do not choose for me

says the baby?

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 25, 2005, 10:28 pm

Rekaar. wrote:
Fash wrote:if you disapprove
you do not have to have one
do not choose for me
says the baby?

Your opinion is that it's a baby. My opinion is that it has not reached that stage yet. Why should your opinion count more than mine when making laws regarding freedom?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » January 25, 2005, 10:42 pm

You honestly think in 2005 that people will magically stop becoming pregnant because abortions are made illegal?

Personally I don't, I imagine it would be a hysterical step backwards for us all, and I worry about the mindset of someone who cannot think or see of the realities with which people are faced with in this situation.

Thank god the majority of people can see the fact that although it is not a pleasant experience it is essentially down to the choice of the human being carrying it.

Life is cheap, look at Iraq.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 25, 2005, 10:52 pm

You know Teeny I think you bring up a good point. I think most anyone who has had an abortion can attest that they don't do it as a cop out for birth control. Aside from the pill it is actually a scary process.

EDIT: http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_boo ... oth_20.asp

Here is a link to what appears to be a clinical analysis of possible abortion complications. I'm sorry but this does not sound like something that is feasible for a 'method of birth control.' As many of the anti-abortionists here would like people to believe. It is actually possibly dangerous, and I think that anyone who feels the need to do this strong enough to go through with it should have the option available.

Geezus That's the National right to life page (Credibility -= 200)...let me get antoher.
Mental note: Read sources more carefully.

Ok that's a better link. The other one seems to suggest things like this happen all the time. Anyways, yes there are complications that happen from time to time as well, physiological as well as psychological. It's not trivial like putting on a condom. I think any woman who had one with the intent being contraception would think twice about it the second time. Only those who don't know these things (and I would hope were one to make a decision like that they would research a bit...) would do it the first time in an uninformed manner.

Basically it's not trivial, and is no recourse for bad judgement. If someone decides to have an abortion, I would think it very rare for anyone to do it on a whim and/or without having thought about it carefully.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » January 25, 2005, 11:52 pm

Basically it's not trivial, and is no recourse for bad judgement. If someone decides to have an abortion, I would think it very rare for anyone to do it on a whim and/or without having thought about it carefully.

Exactly.

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » January 26, 2005, 5:29 pm

Lohrno wrote:
Rekaar. wrote:
Fash wrote:if you disapprove
you do not have to have one
do not choose for me
says the baby?
Your opinion is that it's a baby. My opinion is that it has not reached that stage yet. Why should your opinion count more than mine when making laws regarding freedom?

Obviously you want to draw the line at a different point, or you're just plain scared to really think that line of thought to its conclusion so we'll shelve that. We wouldn't get anywhere.

Put simply - what if you're wrong?

If I'm wrong more babies get born. If you're wrong you're supporting the wholesale slaughter of children. Exactly which side is it smarter to err on?

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 26, 2005, 5:40 pm

Didn't you read the poll or the news about the kid who beat the fuck out of his GF with a baseball bat in the stomach because she didnt want her parents to know? Improper abortions can have fatal consequences. The one thing you can't count on is people to all be the same and all go "Oh I'm going to not have sex now." As much as you might not like to admit it, America is a place of differences, not homogeny. If you ban abortions you can count on more instances like that.

Secondly financial hardships and/or rape can and do happen. Is it worse for a woman in bad shape left by her deadbeat BF to have an abortion, or to raise a child at that time, thus possibly dooming her and her kid to poverty for at least 20 years? If you stand by the 'except in case of rape' standard I would ask why? Wouldn't you be killing a "child" in this case?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · January 26, 2005, 6:08 pm

No it wouldn't Lohrno.

Not allowing abortions, unless in case of the mothers health being in danger, rape and incest is showing people that there are consequences to their actions.

In cases of rape, it was not a choice of the woman, thus being a rape. If it was her choice, then it wouldn't be rape.

If they reversed Roe v. Wade, numerous things would happen.....Some will chose not to have sex, some will chose to have illegal abortions, some will not change anything. I think it is foolish to just see the negative in any proposal. More bad will come it as more good will come of it.

Personally I would like to see abortions made illegal after the first trimester. The mother has 3 months to decide what she wants to do, unless her life is in danger then it could happen after that.

Homercles · Post by **Homercles** » January 26, 2005, 6:41 pm

The reversal of Roe v Wade would not make abortion illegal. If it were ever reversed (which I dont think it will be) then all that happens is the states are given the power to choose for themselves if they want to make abortion legal or illegal. And Im willing to bet that 46-50 of the states would keep abortion legal...if not in its current form, then a slightly modified form.

Mississippi, Alabama....the bible belt....might make it illegal. But still, it would only take an hours drive to get to Louisianna or Florida, or Missouri.

The whole "Roe V Wade should be the deciding factor of nominating supreme court justices" is such a load of shit.

If there is some case at the foot of the Supreme Court crying out to make abortion Illegal across the United States...that would concern me. Maybe there is one. I dont know. But Roe V Wade is not that case. And reversing it will not make abortion illegal across the land.

of course I have nothing to back anything I just said. I could be wrong on all counts. But Im bored and decided to blow some smoke out my ass.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 26, 2005, 7:11 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: In cases of rape, it was not a choice of the woman, thus being a rape. If it was her choice, then it wouldn't be rape.

Using the arguments that have been presented a million times in the past for the sake of playing devil's advocate here: But you're STILL killing a child!! If you believe abortion is killing a child, the circumstances have nothing to do with it. You can't have it both ways.

If they reversed Roe v. Wade, numerous things would happen.....Some will chose not to have sex, some will chose to have illegal abortions, some will not change anything. I think it is foolish to just see the negative in any proposal. More bad will come it as more good will come of it.

I think far more will have illegal and dangerous abortions than will chose not to have sex. The reason for this I think it because of the reasons I have given before. Abortion is not something entered into lightly. There is a chance that after 3 abortions the woman can become sterile, and most would agree this is a bad thing(tm). If they really need it, they will do it. If not, 9 times out of 10, they won't do it anyways. I am probably not qualified to say so but I would guess that most women do not dream of having abortions, and wouldn't do it anyways unless there was a very very compelling reason. I think you'll get slapped in the face if you walk up to a woman and ask her "Hey baby, want to have my abortion?"

Personally I would like to see abortions made illegal after the first trimester. The mother has 3 months to decide what she wants to do, unless her life is in danger then it could happen after that.

The only real problem I have with this is the slippery slope of it. I know that there are forces in our country that want to ban it, and doing that would make it a lot easier. That and I'd say that boundary should be a bit more fuzzy...4-5 or so maybe... The other thing is that pregnancy tests are quite often inaccurate. There have been cases of women not knowing they were pregnant until 6 months or later.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » January 26, 2005, 11:03 pm

Should a monolithic conservative movement which makes a lot of noise simply be placated?

How many women and or couples must suffer in silence from age 20 to death, (or 16-death, or 50-death, whatever, the REST OF THEIR LIFE) for a drunken accident/rape/split condom/forgotten pill WHEN WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY TO AVOID IT simply because of this rowdy bunch of hillbillies?

It is illogical, I do not think ANYONE would say abortions are "good", but at the same time having a few million fundamentalist christians with a violently immature approach to the problem does nothing but shake the foundations of the worlds reason and logic.

And I would be all for shaking the foundations of the worlds reason and logic, if it wasn't for something so fucking piously wrong.

The passion is top notch, but again, logic is nowhere to be seen.

Edit: Anyone who thinks people won't have sex because abortions are illegal is creating a frightening world and is also horribly naive.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · January 27, 2005, 1:00 pm

Teenybloke wrote:Edit: Anyone who thinks people won't have sex because abortions are illegal is creating a frightening world and is also horribly naive.

Anyone who thinks they know how everyone else thinks and feels is creating a frightening world and is also horribly naive.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » January 27, 2005, 1:34 pm

it's rediculous to think our society is going to go backwards in terms of sex.. every year it becomes less taboo, and more common..

illegal abortions will not curb sex in the slightest, but we can't say it won't spur more protection.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » January 27, 2005, 2:18 pm

Tougher abortion laws may encourage a small percentage of mature adults to use more protection but the naive younger generation still won't know any better. Tougher abortion laws would only hurt the people that need abortions the most.

Sex is a strong natural instinct but the problem is that it comes into play long before most humans are wise enough to understand the implications. Unless we sterilize everyone until they make a conscious decision to make themselves fertile in order to produce offspring, we need very liberal abortion laws.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » January 27, 2005, 2:20 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Anyone who thinks they know how everyone else thinks and feels is creating a frightening world and is also horribly naive.

http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/view ... hp?t=12994

True dat, true dat.

VeeshanVault

Roe vs Wade

Should Roe v Wade be overturned?

Roe vs Wade