What we can look forward to if Bush win

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » November 2, 2004, 4:16 pm

In another 8 hours the landslide will be complete and you won't have to worry about this.

Mak · Post by **Mak** » November 2, 2004, 4:16 pm

Cracc wrote:So what you are saying more or less is that the foreign aid the US gives, more or less allows your goverment to act like bullies in other places of the world?

No, but I think it's more than a little ironic that so many countries trash the US while still wanting handouts.

Cracc · Post by **Cracc** » November 2, 2004, 4:17 pm

And your president's great grandfather was one of Hitlers biggest financers in the US, so that kind of puts us on equal footing doesnt it?

Cracc · Post by **Cracc** » November 2, 2004, 4:22 pm

Sweden also saved more jews then most of the other countries in europe at the time trough false diplomatic passes, Ever heard of Raul Wallenberg?

And FYI, the main reason the US went into ww2 was because the european market was overshadowed by a threat of a authoritarian isolationist state if Hitler had suceeded, wich wouldve had grave impact on the american state's well beeing.
Freedom and liberty for all indeed

So dont give me the swedish nazi wannabe bullshit line, it's kind of old.

Mak · Post by **Mak** » November 2, 2004, 4:31 pm

At the risk of sounding like a 6 year old... you started the rah rah Sweden line of thinking. I've got nothing against Sweden, personally. You have great bikini teams, after all.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » November 2, 2004, 4:46 pm

AFAIK the US has one of the lowest foriegn aid as % of GDP of the developed nations.

Also, classifying your military aid (military industry subsidies) as foreign aid is bullshit.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 2, 2004, 4:50 pm

Forthe's avatar looks French!

Midnyte_Ragebringer · November 2, 2004, 5:00 pm

Forthe wrote:AFAIK the US has one of the lowest foriegn aid as % of GDP of the developed nations.

Also, classifying your military aid (military industry subsidies) as foreign aid is bullshit.

Here we go witht he percentages again. God forbid you recognize the ridiculous amount of money the US gives out all around the world. LOL. You are mimicing the bullshit propaganda about how the richest 1% get the most back from a tax cut. DUH!!! They fucking pay the most, they would get back the most. Fucking dolt. Keeping eating up the media fodder they shoot out to the fucking dummies they know will eat it up and regurgitate it all over the voting booth today. Fucking pathetic tool.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » November 2, 2004, 5:05 pm

Holy fucking shit.

First, let's talk about how much invading Cuba would help stop the "drug trade." I've never heard too much about Cuba being a massive drug production facility (although it is a hub for drug smuggling, afaik). I'm sure there also is some narcotic production that takes place there.

The two significant drugs that Cuba could produce would be cocaine and marijuana. Opiates are produced in Asia and the Middle East, pharmaceuticals are produced here, hallucinogens are either grown or processed here, and synthetic uppers are generally produced here as well.

Cuba's cocaine production is necessarily a very minor problem. Last time I checked, although it was a few years ago, Colombia produced more than eighty percent of the cocaine consumed in the United States. Other countries in the region, including probably Cuba, produce almost all the rest.

Cuba's marijuana production also must be a very minor problem. Marijuana production is not localized like cocaine. Colombia does produce a large quantity of marijuana (around 30%, I think), but weed can be easily grown almost anywhere, making importation costly and pointless. The majority of American marijuana is grown in the midwest by farmers who disguise it in their other crops, but there are also significant portions grown in California, the less populated portions of New England, and on farms hidden deep within national parks.

With this in mind, the counternarcotics effect of a Cuban invasion would be negligible. Additionally, if counternarcotics is the goal, it's easy to see that there would be methods of fighting drug use and drug trafficking that would be vastly (like hundreds of times) more cost-effective. Those of us who actually are concerned about things like fiscal conservatism and the budget realize this.

Cuba is a relatively small problem and there would be a really ugly uproar here if we decided to lift sanctions on them from the people around here that were still alive when it first became an issue. It would be easier just to go in, set up shop, and bring America to them, straightforward and cut and dried.

So you think there would be a "really ugly uproar" if we lifted economic sanctions against a small, non-threatening nation that many Americans have ideological differences with.

Do you think that there would not be a "really ugly uproar" if we initiated a costly military invasion of a tiny, defenseless sovereign nation that has not provoked us in decades?

I hypothesize that the uproar would be far greater in the latter scenario than the former.

I'm absolutely shocked by your statement that "it would be easier to just go in, set up shop, and bring America to them, straightforward and cut and dried."

I disagree. I think that saying "There are a lot of Cuban refugees in America, so there must be widespread pro-American sentiment in Cuba" is blatantly wrong. I would feel confident in saying that, were we to invade Cuba, we would not be welcomed by Cubans, especially if we attempted to make Cuba a state. It seems to me that to feel any other way is to blatantly ignore the realities of Cuban history, Cuban opinion, and military engagement.

If we were to follow your plan, I'm absolutely certain that the majority of Cubans would not accept or respect our presence. I'm further certain that the country would quickly destabilize, and whatever bullshit American-backed government we installed would have little success or legitimacy. We would entangle ourselves in a very difficult military and political situation, and most likely attract the scorn of the world yet again.

This conflict would be even less justifiable than Iraq. While our actions would be relatively similar in both cases, there are some differences:

- We thought that Iraq had WMD's. We know that Cuba does not.
- We considered Iraq a threat to our security. We know that Cuba is not.
- Saddam Hussein's human rights violations were egregious even by the standards of other dictators. Fidel Castro's are not.
- Saddam Hussein fought a war against us ten years ago, Cuba and Castro have not.
- Saddam Hussein had been making mild military provocations for a decade, Fidel Castro has not.

A war in Cuba would likely be easier than one in Iraq, but it would be even more pointless, even more morally bankrupt, and even more fiscally irresponsible. With all that's facing us in the world right now (including a massive deficit, and, you know, ISLAMIC TERRORISM), it strikes me that invading Cuba would be an incredibly poor idea.

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » November 2, 2004, 5:16 pm

Winnow wrote:Forthe's avatar looks French!

Winnow's avatar looks asian. Damn commie bastards, lets invade them

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » November 2, 2004, 5:16 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Forthe wrote:AFAIK the US has one of the lowest foriegn aid as % of GDP of the developed nations.

Also, classifying your military aid (military industry subsidies) as foreign aid is bullshit.
Here we go witht he percentages again. God forbid you recognize the ridiculous amount of money the US gives out all around the world. LOL. You are mimicing the bullshit propaganda about how the richest 1% get the most back from a tax cut. DUH!!! They fucking pay the most, they would get back the most. Fucking dolt. Keeping eating up the media fodder they shoot out to the fucking dummies they know will eat it up and regurgitate it all over the voting booth today. Fucking pathetic tool.

Losing the election must be fucking with your mind. I know you are dumb but Xzion's worst post ever was more cohesive than the crap you just typed out.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » November 2, 2004, 5:19 pm

Winnow wrote:Forthe's avatar looks French!

Blame SOE!!

Ignore the hitler shadow\mustache.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » November 2, 2004, 6:06 pm

Castro won't live much longer, I would guess that when he does the next person in charge will want to change a few things, even if they are in his regime right now. At that point we support the Cuban people's desire for change by offering them what help we can if they ask for it. Please note that this dosen't including sending the CIA in before they ask to "help them along." When the Cuban people want freedom bad enough they will revolt and it will be THEIR freedom, not one imposed by the United States. Once they are free should that choose to become a state in the Union they can peition to do so. I would love to see Cuba as a state, I think it would be a great thing but I would want it to be their decision not ours.

Marb

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » November 2, 2004, 7:26 pm

I can see the benefits from taking over Cuba, but I do not think it is worth the price. It does sound appealing to get rid of a dictator in our immediate area though.

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » November 2, 2004, 7:55 pm

miir wrote:
Akaran_D wrote:It isn't a WMD issue. It's a "step on the cockroach that's busy throwing its droppings at our country" issue.

Dispose of Castro, clean up, make Cuba the next state in the union and be done with it already. Should have taken him out as a warmup to Iraq, imo.
I really hope you're joking Akaran.

If you're not, why the fuck not invade Mexico, Canada and all of Central and South America? After all, they are all just 'insignificant stains' on Empire America's quest for world domination.

Castro isn't on the same level as Saddam in any way you want to look at it, but he is a viable target for a cleanup opperation.
Get rid of the economic sanctions and maybe the country will clean up itself. I have no idea why the US still has sanctions on Cuba when the rest of the world lifted them ages ago.

Hey, the US already stole Texas from Mexico, and now thats voting Bush. If he can take the rest of Mexico soon he can secure the votes needed for his third term!

*Hugs*
Varia

Midnyte_Ragebringer · November 2, 2004, 8:44 pm

Forthe wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Forthe wrote:AFAIK the US has one of the lowest foriegn aid as % of GDP of the developed nations.

Also, classifying your military aid (military industry subsidies) as foreign aid is bullshit.
Here we go witht he percentages again. God forbid you recognize the ridiculous amount of money the US gives out all around the world. LOL. You are mimicing the bullshit propaganda about how the richest 1% get the most back from a tax cut. DUH!!! They fucking pay the most, they would get back the most. Fucking dolt. Keeping eating up the media fodder they shoot out to the fucking dummies they know will eat it up and regurgitate it all over the voting booth today. Fucking pathetic tool.
Losing the election must be fucking with your mind. I know you are dumb but Xzion's worst post ever was more cohesive than the crap you just typed out.

Your opinion of me matters this much....(see below)

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » November 3, 2004, 7:00 am

This country was as developed as America not 50 years ago, and now they starve.

Most of them were starving then, working for US companies that harvested and sold their produce for US profit. The rest of it was mafia-run holiday resort and on top of it sat a corrupt military dictator.
Castro didn't get in power by holding a gun to everyone's head. They wanted him. And he was ready to be a friend to the US but got blackballed by Eisenhower and Nixon (he wasn't prepared to be a tame puppet like Batista so he got labelled a communist - it was the McCarthy era after all), embargo'd and the only country that offered him any support was the USSR. The relationship was further soured by the CIAs frankly fucking ludicrous assassination attempts.
Things have sure come a long way in the intervening 50 years but, again, the US helped make a rod for its own back.
So I fully expect cuba to be liberated in the next 2-3 years. It fits the Iraq template too neatly.