Gee I guess finding those WMDs wasn't so serious after all

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » March 28, 2004, 4:54 pm

Was it responsible to lie about it?

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 28, 2004, 10:07 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Kyo, while I agree the WMD was a big reason for the war. Those soldiers that died there also provided Iraqis with a chance at democracy.

WMD or not, that was a noble sacrifice.

Besides we were in part responsible for Saddam being in power. It was a responsible thing to slay the dragon we helped create.

And if either of those reasons had been the case made to go to war, well, lets be frank. You wouldn't have gone to war.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » March 29, 2004, 1:00 am

You're right Dregor.

At the time I thought it best to continue focusing on Afganistan before considering another conflict.

I thought the threat of WMD was enough to justify action in Iraq.

Now that we haven't found them, I must consider the good we have done by giving the Iraqis a chance at freedom. The world is better in my opinion now that those folks are no longer terrorized by Saddam and Sons.

Sionistic,

Bush looked at the intelligence he had and made a judgement call. He did what he thought was best. It does look like after he made the decision to go to Iraq he spun everything he had towards drumming up UN support for the war. (wouldn't you?)

Did he song-and-dance his information to the point of lieing? It's possible, I hope not, but if he did, it was wrong thing to do.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 29, 2004, 12:03 pm

it is one thing to make this statement off the cuff, anybody can use poor judgement speaking spontaneously. This was an advised, planned, rehearsed speech, and I think the jokes were in very poor taste.

I think Bush all along has really listened too much to his handlers, and this is simply another example of that. The speech is not presented to the general public, but he is the president, and it is a presentation that the media covers.

i am not surprised that Rove, et al. don't really care about the fact that the war propaganda has been obviously exposed as totally false now. I am somewhat surprised that Bush would be complicitous in insulting the intelligence of his supporters with this sort of gesture. As much as i may disagree with some of his policies, i do believe on a basic level that he is somebody that does respect others.

sad thing is, Bush could come out tomorrow and say "we knew there were no WMDs" and 95% of his supporters wouldn't be swayed.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » March 29, 2004, 12:17 pm

War is the single most serious event that a President or government can carry its people into.

Exactly. But I guess when you're GW Bush, you really don't have a clue about the military anyway. It's just numbers to you.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 29, 2004, 12:20 pm

Winnow wrote:

Bush
271 Electoral Votes
30 States
50,456,169 Pop. Votes

Gore
266 Electoral Votes
21 States
50,996,116 Pop. Votes

So Close! Those sneaky Electoral Votes. Keep an eye on Florida this November.

Florida OR Ohio.

A poll was released early last week of voters in those two states, and I think i am remembering Kerry was winning in both polls above the margin of error.

in either event, if Kerry wins either of those two states and all the rest stay the same as last time (most probably will), then he wins the election.

New Mexico is also very winable for Kerry, and that could be an important one as well.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » March 29, 2004, 12:31 pm

If there's a voting snafu like there was in 2000, you can count on some sort of serious up-rising.

What scares me more, is the electronic computerized voting machines. There's already a lot of reports of them not working properly and not recording votes properly. Not to mention the source not being made available. Not to mention the company actually making the systems..

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 29, 2004, 12:36 pm

yeah, those are basically great foder for conspiracy theorists. the concerns over them are extremely justified.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 29, 2004, 1:25 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:You're right Dregor.

At the time I thought it best to continue focusing on Afganistan before considering another conflict.

I thought the threat of WMD was enough to justify action in Iraq.

Now that we haven't found them, I must consider the good we have done by giving the Iraqis a chance at freedom. The world is better in my opinion now that those folks are no longer terrorized by Saddam and Sons.

I agree that he was a piece of shit and don't shed any tears for him. But what you're saying is still making excuses for a major error on the part of the leader of your country and his administration. Sure, you can look back and say, "Hey, it wasn't a total loss, we got Saddam", but you have to remember that it was still your men and women who were sent over under false pretenses, put their lives on the line, and in over 500 cases lost them.

Crystinia · Post by **Crystinia** » March 29, 2004, 1:51 pm

i know i am a nobody, but ill bet if Bush reelected, he will continue to yet another country.

Cant post where or who but .....(have a good idead though)

This painful Subject for me. i have a brother in iraq and 1 here in states going to Blackhawk pilot school(wwhich means upon graduation he goes back to iwaq or where ever they go next)

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » March 29, 2004, 2:50 pm

Siji wrote:Yet more proof that Clinton pwned Bush in every way.

Clinton's little "White House movie" was funny. Bill doing laundry, washing the car, etc. Would love to find an MPG of that somewhere..

As much as Bush is starting to piss me off dont let Clinton off so easy.

a.. Enron's chairman did meet with the president and the vice

president in the Oval Office.

B.. Enron gave $420,000 to the president's party over three years.

C.. It donated $100,000 to the president's inauguration festivities.

D.. The Enron chairman stayed at the White House 11 times.

E.. The corporation had access to the administration at its highest

levels and even enlisted the Commerce and State Departments to grease

deals for it.

F.. The taxpayer-supported Export-Import Bank subsidized Enron for

more

than $600 million in just one transaction.> Scandalous!!

G.. BUT...the president under whom all this happened WASN'T George
W. Bush.

H.. SURPRISE ......... It was Bill Clinton!

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 29, 2004, 6:00 pm

Enron is a great example of how rampant political corruption is among both parties.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » March 30, 2004, 6:05 pm

Cartalas wrote:
Siji wrote:Yet more proof that Clinton pwned Bush in every way.

Clinton's little "White House movie" was funny. Bill doing laundry, washing the car, etc. Would love to find an MPG of that somewhere..
As much as Bush is starting to piss me off dont let Clinton off so easy.

Ok, if someone as conservative as Cartalas is staring to realize Bush is a terrible president, i do see some hope in this country

.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 30, 2004, 6:41 pm

Enron is a great example of how rampant political corruption is among both parties.

Actually, Enron is a great example of how there was corruption in the Clinton Administration, but not in the Bush administration. Enron came to beg at Bush's door early on and was essentially told to piss off. Eron wanted a Federal bailout and wanted the Administration to sponsor favourable legislation for the development of Natural Gas (a principal Enron product - or perhaps more correctly stated - holding). Ken Lay was never given a personal meeting with Bush as he had several times with Clinton. And when he reached out for support through other contacts in the Administration, he was told "No."

I don't know how it happened (other than the fact that the public as a whole is just stupid), but Bush took a terrible rap on this one. He handled Enron as perfectly as he could have. He did not cause the problem. He refused to bail out the problem and the Justice department successfuly prosecuted dozens of persons involved. For once (and the only time as far as I can see) the most secreative Administration in the history of our country was completely open about the facts and the process with the whole mess was handeled. If Bush acted in all other issues as he acted in the Enron case, I think he would be a fine President.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 30, 2004, 6:45 pm

thank god the truth is out. it was all clinton's fault after all!

masteen · Post by **masteen** » March 30, 2004, 6:54 pm

kyoukan wrote:thank god the truth is out. it was all clinton's fault after all!

I FUCKING KNEW IT!!!11!!!!

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 30, 2004, 7:07 pm

Not sure why, apart from knee-jerk liberalism, you would come to the conclusion that because Bush handeled Enron well that Enron was all Clinton's fault. I don't know what complicity Clinton may or may not have had in Enron's criminal actions. All I know is that Ken Lay was able, on multiple occasions, to get personal meeting with Clinton. I know that Enron was cooking its books during the Clinton presidency, not During Bush. I know that the Bush Justice department, not the Clinton Justice department, prosecuted Lay and other Enron execs and their accountants.

This does not make it all Clinton's fault. The fault principally lies with those people now in jail over the matter.

Voro corrently suggests (or I think that is the suggestion) that when the COE of a corportation has a closed door meeting (or in the case of Lay and Clinton multiple closed door meetings) with the President, that such situations are rife with the potential for corruption (much like Cheeny's closed door meetings with various Energy CEOs that he is fighting so hard to keep secreat).

I think when it is later discovered that the company of the CEO you were meeting with was in fact bankrupt for years and was simply hiding it, that the subject matter of those meetings and the possibility that something untowads was going on is a reasonable thread of thought.

What I was pointing out was that some how, Bush got caught up in all this and that he more so than Clinton has borne the bad press about Enron and corruption when it was Bush that refused to meet with Lay, refused to help Lay and then prosecuted him. Those actions are very different from what happened under Clinton.

Were Clinton and Lay involved in some corrupt consiracy? Probably not. Would be a lot easier to know that if the content of the Lay meetings were public, or better yet, if they had never happened at all.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 30, 2004, 7:14 pm

i wont give Bush *too* much credit for shunning Enron, because weren't they already a political lightning rod by that point?

my point about both parties was more about the depth of campaign contributions that Enron has made to persons on both sides of the isle for many years. But i am also highly skeptical of closed door meetings, both those held by Cheney as well as Clinton.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 30, 2004, 7:25 pm

Not quite, though soon after. The calls were placed to various people in the Administration in October 2001. This was a few months before everything went public.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 30, 2004, 7:43 pm

The company that makes Viagra had Bob Dole by the balls.

Arundel Pajo · Post by **Arundel Pajo** » March 30, 2004, 9:08 pm

Um... Hate to rain on any parades here, but Kenny boy didn't need many meetings with the Bush administration because they were already in bed together.

Voro's right on the money - Bush distanced himself from Enron purely because it was a powder keg waiting to go off. I mean, hell - just do the tiniest of cursory Google searches...

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2002/020602a1.html

Now, in trying to insulate Bush from the spreading Enron scandal, White House aides have emphasized that administration officials rebuffed Lay and other Enron executives who sought a federal bailout to save their corporate skin. But the documentary record paints a different picture, showing that the administration did what it could last year to help Enron, until the Houston energy trader's collapse was so far advanced that its deceptive bookkeeping could no longer be kept out of public view.

Last year, Vice President Dick Cheney and his energy task force held six secret meetings with Lay and other Enron officials while developing an administration program that contained special favors for Enron. Bush named Lay’s allies to key regulatory positions, such as the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, which pushed for other pet Enron projects.

http://www.blythe.org/nytransfer-subs/C ... With_Enron

http://www.nctimes.net/news/2002/20020201/52605.html

Aaemdar wrote:Actually, Enron is a great example of how there was corruption in the Clinton Administration, but not in the Bush administration. Enron came to beg at Bush's door early on and was essentially told to piss off.

As if. This was *totally* a move to distance the administration from from the coming fracas.

EDIT>> Just to be crystal clear here, I'm not saying that there was no Enron related corruption in the Clinton administration. To say, however, that this is a prime example of how there was corruption in the Clinton administration and not in the Bush administration (at least where Enron is concerned), is - not to mince words - a steaming crock of shit that can be easily rebuffed with almost no research.

I mean, I hate to be cantankerous and all, because it's usually not my nature...but seriously. If I read that right, and you're saying that Bush got a bum rap on Enron, then you need to wrestle your puckering lips from Ari Fleischer's/Scott McClellan's teat for half a second.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » September 2, 2004, 7:12 pm

Dregor Thule wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:In your opinion.

Some of us found it refreshing and uplifting.
Refreshing? You mean like a 7-Up? A clear, bubbly liquid that feels tingly going down? Hmm, it's Sunday, I may as well get in my daily dosage of you're a fucking idiot.

YOU'RE A FUCKING IDIOT

I know, bumping an old post, but I was doing a search for something and read this thread, and I'll be damned if I wasn't thinking the very thing I had posted to Midnyte back then all over again!

It's good to see some things never change

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » September 2, 2004, 9:26 pm

Okay someone needs to call bullshit here, and since it has hit 2 pages without it here we go

Arundel or someone said

Things done and/or attempted:

* Drilling for oil in the ANWR

We should be doing so in a reasonable manner, this is an open issue of debate and no one has all the answers on it

* Banning stem cell research

I agree, Bush was a moron, but in his defense he banned some, not all

* Attempted rollback or Roe v. Wade

Yeah yeah yeah, that has been attempted annuall every few years, the last real attempt was made by the "Roe" herself.

* "Freedom" fries

Umm this was congress et al not the President

* A return to the Keynesian "trickle-down" nonsense that worked so well in the Reagan era

Following Reagan we had 12 years of economic growth, following Clinton we have had 4 years of economic downs. The President actually in officetakes years to start showing an actual effect on the economy. Thanks Economics 101

* Record deficits

Umm more bullshit, record numbers mean nada next to real world dollars, another use of voodoo statistics

* No Child Left Behind

I agree completely that this is bullshit, I think educationshould be private and paid for by parents not all of society.

* Ken Lay on energy council

I agree lame

* Clear Skies Initiative, which was anything but helpful to the environment

Better than nada

* Withdrawl from Kyoto agreement
Kyoto if you actually read it, is unfairly written against developed nations.

* Stacking scientific panels to achieve findings ammenable to big business

Hell this occurs all over government, politics, business etc, if you curse Bush for it,you may as well give up voting

* Awarded no-bid military contracts to Halliburton and KBR (yay for war profiteering!)

Yep, Cheney is evil, I wish he would be remvoed from office, but you have to realize that this shit did not occur in a vacuum

* Curtailing of civil liberties in the PATRIOT act

Are you aware of who voted for an against this act? Obviously not, because only someone ignorant or not even trying would blame this on Bush, this is the fault of ever Senator and Representative in the US

* Prisoners held without charge or trial in Gitmo

On this issue, I really do not care. Fuck anyone who joined the Taliban

* Constitutional ammendment to ban gay marraige

I disagree with it also, and he was wrong in speaking fro it

* Faith based initiatives
Yeah backing religion to solve problems is obviously dumb

* Removal of condom information from CDC's STD website
Yep agreed

* Only abstinence-based African AIDS relief - no prophylactics
This is entirely wrong. Factually and otherwise, we have had huge threads on the issue, but the fact is that giving condoms to Africa does not solve the problem, they refuse to use them. We spent more on fixing AIDS in Africa than any other country on the planet.

* Outing of an undercover CIA operative as payback for her husband
Yep, but this was Cheney not Bush, but I agree it alone is rason not to vote and risk Cheney being Prez

* Alienating much of "Old Europe" and squandering a global outpouring of goodwill in the aftermath of 9-11

Fuck "old europe" you are talking about Germany who attempted to conquer the world twice in the last 80 years, mass killed 6 million jews, and 2 million others and has no moral high ground whatsoever on issues of war. As for France, they refuse to honor freedom of religion. Goodwill cannot be squandered, Pity can.

* Arguably the most divisive, partisan political climate in Washington in the past century

Umm moveon.org, any other stupio statements?

* Stonewalling of several investigative committees, citing "national security" and claiming executive privilege on a scale not seen since Nixon

Umm more bullshit, Clinton danced more than Nixon, and so did Reagan over Iran Contra. get some facts for once.

* Unsactioned, preemptive invasion of a sovereign nation, citing WMD's and imminent thread.

Who is the party that sanctions invasions of soveriegn nations? The UN does not even ahve the right to do so, therefore all invasions are unsanctioned. WMDs have proven to be false and were in fact an intelligence failure combined with wishful thinking, but there has been no proof they randomly made shit up like you have with this list. And yes Saddam Hussein was an imminent threat, but to his own people and neighbors, not us.

* Re-framing of that causus belli into "to liberate the suffering people", failing to turn up WMD's, and accusing those who question the missing WMD's of being "revisionist historians"

No arguement here

* Making cavalier jokes about the lack of these WMD's that our young men and women were sent off to fight and die for.
Yep wrong,beyond a shadow of a doubt

* Placement of interim judges on various courts during vacation sessions

Umm prove this is a new practice

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » September 2, 2004, 9:49 pm

Kylere wrote: * Withdrawl from Kyoto agreement
Kyoto if you actually read it, is unfairly written against developed nations.

Ummm huh?...It excludes developing nations (this was Bush's rationale for not being a signator)...

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » September 2, 2004, 9:51 pm

To be honest the most disturbing thing Kylere said that education should all be done by private funding/parents. You realize that the lower class would never ever rise up from the ranks and they would just get poorer while the rich got richer.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » September 2, 2004, 11:16 pm

Arborealus wrote:
Kylere wrote: * Withdrawl from Kyoto agreement
Kyoto if you actually read it, is unfairly written against developed nations.
Ummm huh?...It excludes developing nations (this was Bush's rationale for not being a signator)...

thusly I had stated DEVELOPED, not DEVELOPING

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » September 2, 2004, 11:18 pm

Kylere wrote:
Arborealus wrote:
Kylere wrote: * Withdrawl from Kyoto agreement
Kyoto if you actually read it, is unfairly written against developed nations.
Ummm huh?...It excludes developing nations (this was Bush's rationale for not being a signator)...
thusly I had stated DEVELOPED, not DEVELOPING

Ah well misread...but a really stupid assertion then and now..

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » September 2, 2004, 11:22 pm

Markulas wrote:To be honest the most disturbing thing Kylere said that education should all be done by private funding/parents. You realize that the lower class would never ever rise up from the ranks and they would just get poorer while the rich got richer.

Okay I will admit to being a little bit overboard on that one, but seriously the education system is flawed, and if either the republicans or democrats were totally in charge it would be worse. The problem is not the schools, the books, the teachers etc, it is the PARENTS who send their little future stripper Kendra Jade to school with no food in her stomach other than her boyfriends cum who is allowed to sleep over even though she is 13. Then excuse all the things her teachers say she needs work in by pointing out she is a perfect darling and special and cannot be judged by standards, and the PARENTS who insist on BS being taught in schools while skipping things like math, English, or science. It is the PARENTS who file court cases when little Brittney is held back from 10th grade because she cannot read. The Parents are the single largest failure in the educational system.

So since the PARENTS are fucking it up, they should be paying for it.

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » September 4, 2004, 11:40 pm

Thats a major, major concern in urban city schooling(which usually is lacking). My mother still works at an inner city school(half speak english as a second language), where funding is zip and most parents really dont give a shit(if they're not in prison/dead/runaway). The amount of stories I have heard is enough to make any grown man cry. If you want a good book to read about lower class, Framework for Understanding Poverty is one of my favorites.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 5, 2004, 1:10 am

The right to a free education is one of our most precious rights. No child left behind is a great first step to improving our public schools. I wish it was a democrat who came up with it, then we wouldn't have to hear this bullshit. Problem is the Dems can't do shit unless the teachers unions say it's okay. The teachers hate it because they have to work harder and be held up to specific standards.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » September 5, 2004, 12:28 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:The right to a free education is one of our most precious rights. No child left behind is a great first step to improving our public schools. I wish it was a democrat who came up with it, then we wouldn't have to hear this bullshit. Problem is the Dems can't do shit unless the teachers unions say it's okay. The teachers hate it because they have to work harder and be held up to specific standards.

Midnyte I am friends with too many teachers to let this dumbass comment go by, they all hate it. They are forced to teach a test rather than teaching students, my step daugheters spent an entire grade reviewing material from the previous grade because they school they attended was AHEAD of the standard planning. No child left behind is communism 5 year type planning in our school system.

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » September 5, 2004, 12:49 pm

aye all of the teachers think its the biggest load of bullshit ... now when your kids go to school they don't actually learn anything ... they just learn how to perform well one tests ... its like teaching someone memorization of a book but never being able to read the book.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » September 5, 2004, 12:54 pm

Drasta wrote:aye all of the teachers think its the biggest load of bullshit ... now when your kids go to school they don't actually learn anything ... they just learn how to perform well one tests ... its like teaching someone memorization of a book but never being able to read the book.

The fact the teachers don't like it is all the proof I need to support it. Accountibility is an evil thing when you've never had to live it.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 5, 2004, 1:03 pm

The children don't learn anything but the teachers hate it so it must be good!

Republican reasoning at it's best.

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » September 5, 2004, 1:09 pm

Constantly weighing a pig does not make it fatter.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 5, 2004, 2:33 pm

Markulas wrote:Constantly weighing a pig does not make it fatter.

Ahh yes, the leftist negativity shines through.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 5, 2004, 2:40 pm

You sound like a broken record. That is your standard response every time you have no argument to make. I bet I could write a script that posts just like you.

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » September 5, 2004, 2:41 pm

lol thats being negative?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 5, 2004, 3:21 pm

Markulas wrote:lol thats being negative?

Yes it is being negative.

If they farmers are being told to make the pigs weigh more, then over time the pigs will weigh more, if the farmers do their job.

The teachers use the handed out response of teaching the test. If they fucking "teach", they will know the answers to the test. Plain and simple. Why must it be made out to be more than it is? Don't you people care about our children?

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » September 5, 2004, 4:01 pm

wait how is that being negative?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 5, 2004, 4:17 pm

Markulas wrote:wait how is that being negative?

Wow. We sure do need a better education system.

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » September 5, 2004, 6:17 pm

Lol correctly answering my question would be a good one too.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » September 5, 2004, 8:22 pm

No Child left behind is the worst thing to happen to the American education system since the creation of Carnegie units and the current semester infrastructure designed to make good little factory workers.

Metanis, Midnyte, both of you have a collective IQ of 5 and a good example of what is wrong with the system, both of you can read and write and neither of you can think.

The teachers have always had accountability, now they have baseless blame and are being forced to teach ABC without teaching how they interrelate.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » September 5, 2004, 9:23 pm

Kylere wrote:No Child left behind is the worst thing to happen to the American education system since the creation of Carnegie units and the current semester infrastructure designed to make good little factory workers.

Metanis, Midnyte, both of you have a collective IQ of 5 and a good example of what is wrong with the system, both of you can read and write and neither of you can think.

The teachers have always had accountability, now they have baseless blame and are being forced to teach ABC without teaching how they interrelate.

When you get down off your pedestal then you explain to me how to fix things on a realistic basis. That means working with the abundant resources they already have because I refuse to pay more taxes for a system that provides little more than 12 years of glorified child care and still costs me almost $7,000 per student per year here in Wisconsin.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » September 5, 2004, 10:06 pm

Metanis wrote:
Kylere wrote:No Child left behind is the worst thing to happen to the American education system since the creation of Carnegie units and the current semester infrastructure designed to make good little factory workers.

Metanis, Midnyte, both of you have a collective IQ of 5 and a good example of what is wrong with the system, both of you can read and write and neither of you can think.

The teachers have always had accountability, now they have baseless blame and are being forced to teach ABC without teaching how they interrelate.
When you get down off your pedestal then you explain to me how to fix things on a realistic basis. That means working with the abundant resources they already have because I refuse to pay more taxes for a system that provides little more than 12 years of glorified child care and still costs me almost $7,000 per student per year here in Wisconsin.

How about starting by asking teachers, ignoring parents, and ignoring politicians. NCLB is a failure.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » September 5, 2004, 11:51 pm

The emporer has already said he's going to improve the quality of high school graduates by failing them until they pass! It's all sorted.

It's an interesting theory though, the plan is based on the fact that "most new jobs are filled by people with at least 2 years of college", which of course means if you push more people into college you will need 3 years, then a graduate degree...

You do need to educate the population so you have a pool of prospects larger than the job openings, but it already is.. how about actually creating some jobs? I know it's a little out there..

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » September 6, 2004, 12:15 am

Kylere wrote:How about starting by asking teachers, ignoring parents, and ignoring politicians. NCLB is a failure.

You lose.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 6, 2004, 12:42 am

heh like parents have the faintest idea of what goes on at their kids' school.

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » September 6, 2004, 2:27 am

heh if they did have any idea .... something tells me schools would be having a major shake down ....

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » September 8, 2004, 11:59 pm

Metanis wrote:
Kylere wrote:How about starting by asking teachers, ignoring parents, and ignoring politicians. NCLB is a failure.
You lose.

Umm you are a complete fool. Parents and Politicians are the problems.

Hell if parents could get over thinking their kid is special it would solve half the problems we have in thsi country. Little Courtney is no more important than little Jimmy.