Economy getting better...

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » July 29, 2004, 3:15 pm

The Republicans keep trying to bash Kerry and Edwards for pointing out that the "new" jobs aren't as good as the ones people lost and all we here is how good things are getting...

Guess this shows how bad things have actually been...
http://money.cnn.com/2004/07/29/news/ec ... tm?cnn=yes

Marb

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 29, 2004, 4:43 pm

PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!!

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » July 29, 2004, 4:56 pm

The report said the sharpest drops were in both the number and the earnings of people with the highest incomes. Those with incomes of $10 million or more saw average income fall 22 percent, while the number of returns reporting incomes at that level fell 53 percent during the two year period.

Meanwhile the average income of those filing returns with incomes between $25,000 and $500,000 saw the average income little changed, somewhere between a 0.1 percent decline and a 0.2 percent gain, depending upon the income category, the Times said.

Frankly I have little sympathy for rich folks taking a hit in income. As for us average folks, it doesn't look that bad, and that's what I'm most concerned with.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » July 29, 2004, 5:50 pm

I agree. There is a lot of gap between $25k and $500k. I hope they don't think this is the average income for the the American family. I would say somewhere between $20k and $150k. Any family making more than that is rich in my eyes.

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » July 29, 2004, 6:42 pm

Lalanae wrote:
The report said the sharpest drops were in both the number and the earnings of people with the highest incomes. Those with incomes of $10 million or more saw average income fall 22 percent, while the number of returns reporting incomes at that level fell 53 percent during the two year period.

Meanwhile the average income of those filing returns with incomes between $25,000 and $500,000 saw the average income little changed, somewhere between a 0.1 percent decline and a 0.2 percent gain, depending upon the income category, the Times said.
Frankly I have little sympathy for rich folks taking a hit in income. As for us average folks, it doesn't look that bad, and that's what I'm most concerned with.

Of course, a 22% drop in the super-rich has an enormous impact on the amount of income for the Federal Government because those people contribute a majority of the taxes. Furthermore, if the wealthy are feeling it now, then it can and will have an impact on the middle class in the months ahead as the big whigs tighten their belts by cutting middle class and blue collar wages.

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » July 30, 2004, 4:12 am

"Rich" people aren't rich because they're stupid. Broke people need to stop being jealous of wealthy people.

Taking money from business owners always dings their workers more. Good way to get more jobs outsourced. And people making that level of income aren't going to necessarily be hurt by the changes as far as their lifestyle...however, have any of you managed to boost your income which ended up costing you money by being bumped into a higher tax bracket?

That's a happy time.

And your study is dated.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » July 30, 2004, 10:00 am

"Rich" people aren't rich because they're stupid. Broke people need to stop being jealous of wealthy people.

Quite a few of the rich people today has done zip to earn it. They inherited it.

Deward · Post by **Deward** » July 30, 2004, 10:52 am

Those that inherited probably aren't paying much on taxes anyway. They probably pay a small amount on interest of their money but if those are in the right annuities and financial vehicles then they won't be paying much in taxes.

Taxing business owners even more will just make them pass the costs on. People would rather be jealous of "rich" people than work hard for themselves. We live in a "give me" state instead of the "earn it" state of our ancestors.

I would like to point out though that there are CEO's making way too much money at the expense of their companies. Most of these boneheads are figureheads who don't do much actual work.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 30, 2004, 11:36 am

I personally wish we had a flat tax.

No deductions, everyone gets the same percentage. Everyone gets the same one-page income tax form.

I also wish that withholding be eliminated. Everyone should have to pay a big fat check once a year to Uncle Sam to remind them who pays the bills. Withholding is just sneaky trick to make you feel like your paying less taxes.

I also think the tax rate should be tied directly to the congressional budget.

Every year we get a balanced budget no matter what. And if people start complaining that the universal tax percentage is too high, they'll see a direct link to congressional spending. That way people will directly demand that new programs be halted, or that existing programs be streamlined.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 30, 2004, 11:37 am

withholding is optional though =)

you can have your full pay straight to you and write that check April 15th if you want. just change your W-4

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » July 30, 2004, 11:39 am

Adex_Xeda wrote:I also think the tax rate should be tied directly to the congressional budget.

Every year we get a balanced budget no matter what. And if people start complaining that the universal tax percentage is too high, they'll see a direct link to congressional spending. That way people will directly demand that new programs be halted, or that existing programs be streamlined.

That is a great idea.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » July 30, 2004, 11:39 am

I also wish that withholding be eliminated. Everyone should have to pay a big fat check once a year to Uncle Sam to remind them who pays the bills. Withholding is just sneaky trick to make you feel like your paying less taxes.

It might be partly meant as a sneaky trick.. but also to make it easier for people. Can you imagine how many people wouldn't bother saving up for it to be ready to pay it? I can guarantee you that millions of people would spend the money instead as soon as they get it.

Just like at how many people don't save up for retirement etc. Or how many idiots spend wildly on credit cards.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 30, 2004, 11:45 am

Voronwë wrote:withholding is optional though =)

you can have your full pay straight to you and write that check April 15th if you want. just change your W-4

The IRS charges you a penalty for doing this.

And by making it optional, it kills my reasoning for elimnating the witholding option. That is, people need to get a direct feel for how much they pay Uncle Sam. That moment of understanding should be just as painful as rent, morgage, or a car payment.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 30, 2004, 11:47 am

hmm, really?

my accountant says he does it. i haven't done it in the past, but i am considering doing it in the future, especially if we can work our taxes this year to get a refund next year.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 30, 2004, 11:48 am

Kelshara wrote:
I also wish that withholding be eliminated. Everyone should have to pay a big fat check once a year to Uncle Sam to remind them who pays the bills. Withholding is just sneaky trick to make you feel like your paying less taxes.
It might be partly meant as a sneaky trick.. but also to make it easier for people. Can you imagine how many people wouldn't bother saving up for it to be ready to pay it? I can guarantee you that millions of people would spend the money instead as soon as they get it.

Just like at how many people don't save up for retirement etc. Or how many idiots spend wildly on credit cards.

People can be counted on to make car payments, or pay rent.

They as adults can be counted on to pay their yearly tax check.

The prime concept here is 'Adult Expectations'

It is wrong and insulting to baby people on a governmental level.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 30, 2004, 11:49 am

Voronwë wrote:hmm, really?

my accountant says he does it. i haven't done it in the past, but i am considering doing it in the future, especially if we can work our taxes this year to get a refund next year.

Granted that the tax code can change, but my understanding is the IRS recoops their lost interest from their prefered method of periodic payments by charging you this penalty.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » July 30, 2004, 11:59 am

Car payments and rent are paid monthly most of the time. And lots of people pay these late/get evicted/cars towed etc.

It might be wrong to baby people, but when so many can't seem to take care of themself.. shrug.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » July 30, 2004, 12:50 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:I personally wish we had a flat tax.

No deductions, everyone gets the same percentage. Everyone gets the same one-page income tax form.

There is a term called residual income. It's the reason why a flat tax is anything but equal.

Besides, is the economy ready to find new jobs and training for the 250,000 or so accountants that would lose their jobs over this

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » July 30, 2004, 1:45 pm

But withholding has the added benefit to the government of them being able to use that money in the meantime. If they did away with it they wouldn't be able to use it. In addition, the number of people who default on their taxes would be much greater in my opinion.

Personally I like witholding. It's an easy way to save money throughout the year without having to do anything.

Car payments and rent are paid monthly most of the time. And lots of people pay these late/get evicted/cars towed etc.

Not to mention most tax bills would be much larger than the average car/rent payment.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 30, 2004, 2:04 pm

Adults can handle it.

People default on their credit cards all the time, should we not allow credit cards because of it?

Irresponsiblity is not an excuse.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » July 30, 2004, 2:13 pm

I'm sure if it came down to it they could. But I'd suspect most wouldn't want to.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » July 30, 2004, 3:42 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Adults can handle it.

People default on their credit cards all the time, should we not allow credit cards because of it?

Irresponsiblity is not an excuse.

You have to take into account the extra expense (tax $) that would have to be spent pursuing the irresponsible.

valryte · Post by **valryte** » July 30, 2004, 4:16 pm

my accountant says he does it. i haven't done it in the past, but i am considering doing it in the future, especially if we can work our taxes this year to get a refund next year.

You can not be exempt from withholding and be able to pay it at the end of the year unless maybe you're on fucking welfare. The only people that can do that is if you never have to pay (ie they always get a full refund). And you must file the exemption form every single year. And if you do, you can bet the IRS is going to have a hefty fine waiting for you. Hope you make more money on interest than the fines...

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p15/ar02.html#d0e1708

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » July 30, 2004, 4:17 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:
Voronwë wrote:hmm, really?

my accountant says he does it. i haven't done it in the past, but i am considering doing it in the future, especially if we can work our taxes this year to get a refund next year.

Granted that the tax code can change, but my understanding is the IRS recoops their lost interest from their prefered method of periodic payments by charging you this penalty.

That is correct. Being self-employed I pay my taxes quarterly in order to avoid the penalty.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » July 30, 2004, 5:24 pm

The report said the sharpest drops were in both the number and the earnings of people with the highest incomes. Those with incomes of $10 million or more saw average income fall 22 percent, while the number of returns reporting incomes at that level fell 53 percent during the two year period.

Ummm not to once more point out the abundantly obvious but these are EARNINGS and INCOMES, so fewer people are earning that much because.... with the shit economy noone is investing, they are holding thier chips for the time being. The gap between rich and poor continues to grow, because the Ultra Rich are not willing to invest in the economy is further proof that Bush's tax plan IS NOT WORKING, it always helps to read carefully eh?

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » July 30, 2004, 11:04 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Adults can handle it.

People default on their credit cards all the time, should we not allow credit cards because of it?

Irresponsiblity is not an excuse.

Remind me again what the upside to your idea is? Oh yeah, build some extra resentment into the whole system because you feel you pay too much tax.

The majority of people would not budget for a once a year payment of 20% well and would end up having their next years wages garnished on top of a nice fine for late payment. At that point they can never catch up, so effectively back to the same system only they pay more and the government loses a large percentage of a full year's income.

BTW, it's called human nature, something people take into account in the real world. Just because something is wrong doesn't make unlikely, just because something is a weakness does NOT mean you can pretend it doesn't exist.