kyoukan wrote:how about you examine why they are pissed off enough to kill themselves just to harm people from your country and go from there?
oh yeah that's right it is only because they are mad men who are jealous of your liberty .
Right.
If they were anything more than animals they would stop living in mountains and huts, and start building a future for themselves. Stop living like it's the year 1004 and start living life like it is 2004.
See, you are a bigot. And don't tell me you aren't because Archie Bunker didn't think he was one too.
You are pretty blind to this whole situation. Ignoarant people think they attacked the US out of the blue, reasonable people think that this war goes deeper than that.
kyoukan wrote:how about you examine why they are pissed off enough to kill themselves just to harm people from your country and go from there?
oh yeah that's right it is only because they are mad men who are jealous of your liberty .
Right.
If they were anything more than animals they would stop living in mountains and huts, and start building a future for themselves. Stop living like it's the year 1004 and start living life like it is 2004.
See, you are a bigot. And don't tell me you aren't because Archie Bunker didn't think he was one too.
You are pretty blind to this whole situation. Ignoarant people think they attacked the US out of the blue, reasonable people think that this war goes deeper than that.
You're right. I must be a bigot because I think they are animals.
people by their nature are capable of brutality that exceeds anything in the animal kingdom.
what is more brutal sawing off a man's head with a dull knife or shooting a rocket into a residential area that dismembers a dozen people?
at any rate, the solution to the problem is not an extermination campaign, that is obvious. And it is obvious that is not the strategy of our government.
in general, in my opinion, the Jihadist movement draws on the fact that many persons in Arabic countries are living in extreme poverty and see no way out. They are propagandized into thinking that it is the West who somehow has a roll in this situation. THere is some indirect truth in that. The West has supported autocratic regimes in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and elsewhere. THat does not absolve the regimes and upper class who support those regimes in those countries from culpability either. Or the corporations who do business between the two "worlds".
Bin Ladin for example is extremely wealthy, and i think the only situation he would kill himself in would be to avoid capture (if even then), but he is more than willing to send thousands to die for his greater glorification.
I do think that at the very least, the instability introduced into Iraq in this transition period has certainly spread into Saudi Arabia, and perhaps elsewhere in the region. What remains to be seen is whether or not going forward we will see progress moving in relatively fast steps.
who knows, maybe part of the war strategy was to draw in Islamist terrorists to one central battlefied, eliminating the need to chase them in all corners of the world. I don't think that is the case, otherwise we should have had more troops on the ground from the beginning, but perhaps it is.
I would suggest to the contrary though, that certainly the violation of the Geneva Convention on the bahalf of Steve Cambone's Military Intelligence has probably recruited more people to strap on bombs than anything even Israel has done this year.
So I guess to condense. Persons are pulled into Jihadism by both the ruling elite in the Middle East who fund the propaganda of the extreme clerics, as well as the fact that the West supports these oppressive regimes.
Those are just my off the cuff opinions, not claiming to be an expert.
Great post Voronwë. You hit the nail on the head. I might add that the middle east for the most part has failed to industrialize, while the populations rise up. That accounts for the high poverty rates you find in most of these countries. In a way the Us has tried to invest in these countries to get them to industrialize but what usually happens is that teh ruling elite take the money for themselves.
A good example of this would be the food for oil program in Iraq. The money that was supposed to go to food and medicine went into building large palaces.
From my studies in history I find that with any fundamentalist religion the followers will resist change. The middle east proves the evil that can exist in a religious society even though the religion itself preaches peace and harmony.
The only way to truely stop the cycle of young impovershed people from believeing that they will have a river of honey and 72 virgins after death via suicide, is to educate the masses and build a place of oppertunity for them so they an laugh at those that would send them to thier death for self promotion. If achieving this involves dismantling governments that resist....I am all for it.
In other words...Think about the US in total control of a group headed by Jimmy Swaggart, with no laws in place to check the religoius doctrine from getting into the governement policy. That is the Middle east.
Now can we understand why they hate? Please put two and two together folks.
I hate to agree with Midynte but they ARE animals human being do not sever the heads of helpless people.
BTW the prison guards are ALSO animals, and pieces of subhuman shit.
So the deal is that if you treat people like this you no longer rate as human in my book, bigotry is lack of acceptance based on a stereotype or ignorance, I know on fact these people are not human beings.
I would not tape their executions for their families to see, but I would execute them.
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:And while I am riled up.....let me tell you why Bush and the U.S. are doing whatever they want in the Middle East. Because they can. Sit and stew on that one. In 3 months, Bush and the war machine might just roll into Syria or Libya and start giving those fuckers a steel shampoo.....because they can.
The thing that makes it all sweeter is that liberals today have turned into such pussies that all they can do is sit around their house stuffing ho-hos down their necks and whine on message boards......hence the liberal slant here.
Back in the 60's and 70's they at least made an effort to get out and be heard with protests, sit ins etc. I don't think you all could carry enough Doritos and Mountain Dew to last you a half hour at a protest.
I almost hope that Bush does fuck with Libya if he knows he is on his way out. The amount of crying from here will rattle teh intarnet. the beauty is that you will still be sitting in your room and won't do a damn thing but whine.
We might be pussies but at least liberals are much better in bed.
Well...that might just be due to the fact that we dont hook up with our 14 year old cousins
-xzionis human mage on mannoroth
-zeltharath tauren shaman on wildhammer
you're about as fucking moderate as a bunker buster tactical nuclear missile. and thinking about you performing the act of copulation with anything, much less with whatever gangerous she-beast would ever consent to such a horrific act, makes me want to claw my brains out and wash it under a faucet.
kyoukan wrote:you're about as fucking moderate as a bunker buster tactical nuclear missile. and thinking about you performing the act of copulation with anything, much less with whatever gangerous she-beast would ever consent to such a horrific act, makes me want to claw my brains out and wash it under a faucet.
Another classic insult post WTG Kooky you keep proving our point.
Atokal wrote:{Jerry Seinfeld voice on} Listen Newman err Noel... surgical strikes, satellites and ground assets? Try and focus, zone in on what I am about to tell you... Attack terrorists on any soil and you will piss off the muslim world. Attack terrorists on any soil and you will spawn more terrorists. Attack terrorists on any soil and they flee to surrounding countries.
So using your war model the USA and allies should be committing resources to every fucking neighbouring country to Iraq. I still like the way I read your earlier statements (paraphrased) LETS FIGHT A NICE WAR ON TERROR THAT SHOULD STOP THEM
You remain stupid, ignorant and irrelevant. Noel
Cheers
You're wrong, and you very clearly have no idea what I'm trying to say or talking about. I'm sorry that basic concepts are difficult for you to understand, but how about you let the grownups have a discussion, and you can go back to making fun of people who are overweight.
Oh, my God; I care so little, I almost passed out.
Atokal wrote:{Jerry Seinfeld voice on} Listen Newman err Noel... surgical strikes, satellites and ground assets? Try and focus, zone in on what I am about to tell you... Attack terrorists on any soil and you will piss off the muslim world. Attack terrorists on any soil and you will spawn more terrorists. Attack terrorists on any soil and they flee to surrounding countries.
So using your war model the USA and allies should be committing resources to every fucking neighbouring country to Iraq. I still like the way I read your earlier statements (paraphrased) LETS FIGHT A NICE WAR ON TERROR THAT SHOULD STOP THEM
You remain stupid, ignorant and irrelevant. Noel
Cheers
You're wrong, and you very clearly have no idea what I'm trying to say or talking about. I'm sorry that basic concepts are difficult for you to understand, but how about you let the grownups have a discussion, and you can go back to making fun of people who are overweight.
Well that was a good comeback. Everyman for himself, bail, bail, bail.
Suppose you explain it for the learning disabled, or better yet why don't you go back to harrassing newbie posters or vulnerable women?
Kyoukan, nice post, on topic and extremely thought provoking.
Atokal
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.
Niccolo Machiavelli
Kylere wrote:I hate to agree with Midynte but they ARE animals human being do not sever the heads of helpless people.
BTW the prison guards are ALSO animals, and pieces of subhuman shit.
So the deal is that if you treat people like this you no longer rate as human in my book, bigotry is lack of acceptance based on a stereotype or ignorance, I know on fact these people are not human beings.
I would not tape their executions for their families to see, but I would execute them.
Where as scalping native americans, and them responding in kind, was what?
At the very least the barbaric nature of the executions is for a more "noble" cause than collecting bounties.
For someone with a firm grasp of history and a claim to be part of the native american community, you don't seem very consistent.
Atokal wrote:Kyoukan, nice post, on topic and extremely thought provoking.
do you try in purpose to be this hypocritical or are you some abhorration of nature that actually thinks you've ever once been in the right?
for every one of your posts out of your last one hundred that have been about the topic of the thread, I will give you fifty dollars. so start listing them.
no wonder nobody fucking liked you in person either. you're a completely hopeless cause.
As with all comparisons to historical events, it must be remembered that it was another time with another set of values. Justifying a beheading in 2004 by countering with a scalping in 1860 or a Crusade in 1100 is ultimately nothing more than an excuse to further ones own personal agenda. These centuries old historical events are simply tools used by militant Islamic leaders to whip up their rank-and-file into a frenzy, but I'd be willing to bet that bin Laden doesn't go to sleep each night cursing a Crusade 1000 years in the past. If he wants to bring up more recent history- like, say the last 30 years- I'd remind him that he'd most likely be 25 years dead at the hands of the Soviets if not for American aid to the freedom fighters in Afghanistan.
Granted, if you're a Palestinian, you might have cause to be pissed, as you are still "homeless", but beheading random Americans not even in Israel seems a pretty chicken-shit way to protest that.
Makora
Too often it seems it is the peaceful and innocent who are slaughtered. In this a lesson may be found that it may not be prudential to be either too peaceful or too innocent. One does not survive with wolves by becoming a sheep.
Mak wrote:History is relevant, but only to a point.
As with all comparisons to historical events, it must be remembered that it was another time with another set of values. Justifying a beheading in 2004 by countering with a scalping in 1860 or a Crusade in 1100 is ultimately nothing more than an excuse to further ones own personal agenda. These centuries old historical events are simply tools used by militant Islamic leaders to whip up their rank-and-file into a frenzy, but I'd be willing to bet that bin Laden doesn't go to sleep each night cursing a Crusade 1000 years in the past. If he wants to bring up more recent history- like, say the last 30 years- I'd remind him that he'd most likely be 25 years dead at the hands of the Soviets if not for American aid to the freedom fighters in Afghanistan.
Granted, if you're a Palestinian, you might have cause to be pissed, as you are still "homeless", but beheading random Americans not even in Israel seems a pretty chicken-shit way to protest that.
This about covers it, minus the fact that Native Americans have matured, and Eurotrash once removed has not.
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
Atokal wrote:Kyoukan, nice post, on topic and extremely thought provoking.
do you try in purpose to be this hypocritical or are you some abhorration of nature that actually thinks you've ever once been in the right?
for every one of your posts out of your last one hundred that have been about the topic of the thread, I will give you fifty dollars. so start listing them.
no wonder nobody fucking liked you in person either. you're a completely hopeless cause.
Paging Pot calling Kettle, Pot call Kettle come in kettle.
Atokal wrote:Kyoukan, nice post, on topic and extremely thought provoking.
do you try in purpose to be this hypocritical or are you some abhorration of nature that actually thinks you've ever once been in the right?
for every one of your posts out of your last one hundred that have been about the topic of the thread, I will give you fifty dollars. so start listing them.
no wonder nobody fucking liked you in person either. you're a completely hopeless cause.
Heh, this was the reason for my statement about Cart's posts being concise. At least he has the ability to insult someone with one sentence. Seems to take you forever to get to the point, umm which was?
Atokal
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.
Niccolo Machiavelli
Atokal wrote:Kyoukan, nice post, on topic and extremely thought provoking.
do you try in purpose to be this hypocritical or are you some abhorration of nature that actually thinks you've ever once been in the right?
for every one of your posts out of your last one hundred that have been about the topic of the thread, I will give you fifty dollars. so start listing them.
no wonder nobody fucking liked you in person either. you're a completely hopeless cause.
Heh, this was the reason for my statement about Cart's posts being concise. At least he has the ability to insult someone with one sentence. Seems to take you forever to get to the point, umm which was?
It was, that you are a complete idiot. A hypocrite. And an annoying prick.
Atokal wrote:Kyoukan, nice post, on topic and extremely thought provoking.
do you try in purpose to be this hypocritical or are you some abhorration of nature that actually thinks you've ever once been in the right?
for every one of your posts out of your last one hundred that have been about the topic of the thread, I will give you fifty dollars. so start listing them.
no wonder nobody fucking liked you in person either. you're a completely hopeless cause.
Heh, this was the reason for my statement about Cart's posts being concise. At least he has the ability to insult someone with one sentence. Seems to take you forever to get to the point, umm which was?
It was, that you are a complete idiot. A hypocrite. And an annoying prick.
Were you able to understand that?
Whats sad is he is still a far better MAN!! then you.
Mak wrote:History is relevant, but only to a point.
As with all comparisons to historical events, it must be remembered that it was another time with another set of values. Justifying a beheading in 2004 by countering with a scalping in 1860 or a Crusade in 1100 is ultimately nothing more than an excuse to further ones own personal agenda. These centuries old historical events are simply tools used by militant Islamic leaders to whip up their rank-and-file into a frenzy, but I'd be willing to bet that bin Laden doesn't go to sleep each night cursing a Crusade 1000 years in the past. If he wants to bring up more recent history- like, say the last 30 years- I'd remind him that he'd most likely be 25 years dead at the hands of the Soviets if not for American aid to the freedom fighters in Afghanistan.
Granted, if you're a Palestinian, you might have cause to be pissed, as you are still "homeless", but beheading random Americans not even in Israel seems a pretty chicken-shit way to protest that.
This about covers it, minus the fact that Native Americans have matured, and Eurotrash once removed has not.
That's all well and good from your own "enlightened" perspective, but these people aren't necessarily living in your 21st Century, meaning that of the western world.
I don't doubt this shit is abhorrent, but I also don't doubt that it's pretty effective in it's aim too.. much more of this and Saudi Arabia is going to be deep in shit w/o foreign contractors who value their lives above their wages =/
Hell, if you were invading my country, raping my women, killing my children, I'd do whatever I had to to get rid of you too. Doesn't matter if most of that is incorrect, that's what they percieve, and some people are very adept at making perception reality for the masses.
Terrorist use these extreme tactics because they are powerless from a manpower and technology standpoint. These are the areas where "we" are vulnerable, and they have chosen to exploit those vulnerabilities in a manner which will get maximum exposure.
If they euthanized him with a KCl injection it wouldn't have brought as much attention, sad as taht may be, that's the reality.
Atokal wrote:Kyoukan, nice post, on topic and extremely thought provoking.
do you try in purpose to be this hypocritical or are you some abhorration of nature that actually thinks you've ever once been in the right?
for every one of your posts out of your last one hundred that have been about the topic of the thread, I will give you fifty dollars. so start listing them.
no wonder nobody fucking liked you in person either. you're a completely hopeless cause.
Heh, this was the reason for my statement about Cart's posts being concise. At least he has the ability to insult someone with one sentence. Seems to take you forever to get to the point, umm which was?
It was, that you are a complete idiot. A hypocrite. And an annoying prick.
Were you able to understand that?
Whats sad is he is still a far better MAN!! then you.
and YOU!!! have no basis to make that statement, on either side.
kyoukan wrote:
do you try in purpose to be this hypocritical or are you some abhorration of nature that actually thinks you've ever once been in the right?
for every one of your posts out of your last one hundred that have been about the topic of the thread, I will give you fifty dollars. so start listing them.
no wonder nobody fucking liked you in person either. you're a completely hopeless cause.
Heh, this was the reason for my statement about Cart's posts being concise. At least he has the ability to insult someone with one sentence. Seems to take you forever to get to the point, umm which was?
It was, that you are a complete idiot. A hypocrite. And an annoying prick.
Were you able to understand that?
Whats sad is he is still a far better MAN!! then you.
and YOU!!! have no basis to make that statement, on either side.
Whatever happened to the good old days of - crime > trial > punishment?
These people may appear to be "animals" to you, but I think Voro and Zae hit it right on the head - they are only being animals because they have no other choice
Do I condone what they've done? Absolutely not
Do I think they are at the very least appearing to be animals and sub-human? Yes
But I don't think that just walking in there and murdering the lot of them is really the most valid response to this - all it does is legitamize their cause and ends up making the US look like a pack of wild animals as well
Fesuni, if I go out and take a hostage, and announce that unless the forces opposing the US in Iraq pull out I will behead the hostage, and I do so, then I would be an animal. I am not holding anyone to a standard I am not holding myself to, by my personal standards doing such a thing lowers someone from human.
Regardless of the direct one to one comparisons there is a difference in issues between nations and unconnected groups who only have the pronounced desire to destroy the US. These people are not heroes, guerillas fighting an oppressor, or even acting on the tenets of their faith, they are animals murdering because they enjoy doing it. Nothing in the Koran backs their actions, no goverment backs their actions, they are acting without justification.
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
Ahh the final idiot of the left leaning fuckstains has spoken. WELCOME to the discussion Truant. I would put you in the same category as Cartalas except that his oneliners are funny and occasionally he posts opinion on topic. You on the other hand are the worst type of asshole. Mirroring others insults, offering nothing worthy of discussion a mere toilet cleaner in the world of intelligent opinion.
Kindly shut your hole and flush.
Cheers
PS if I am an annoying prick to you I know I am doing great things.
Atokal
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.
Niccolo Machiavelli
I cant believe I am going to side with Kylere & Midnyte....but yes, any person that would cut off the head of someone else, much less film it & display it is an animal. Good people just dont do that...I don't give a fuck what religion they are, or whats been done to them. If they were once good, and the bad experiences in ther elives have turned them into someone who does this, they have become an animal.
Skogen wrote:I cant believe I am going to side with Kylere & Midnyte....but yes, any person that would cut off the head of someone else, much less film it & display it is an animal. Good people just dont do that...I don't give a fuck what religion they are, or whats been done to them. If they were once good, and the bad experiences in ther elives have turned them into someone who does this, they have become an animal.
I am afraid to say that this level of barbarism is the exclusive domain of mankind, and something that we excel at in a way that animals never have. Calling these people animals or subhuman is a serious injustice to the animal kingdom.
The acts are inexcusable, but we openned the door for this shit with the prisoner abuse and willful disregard of the geneva convention. Partisan forces will fight with whatever means they have and right now terror is the means. This is Eye for an Eye type stuff and its only going to get worse.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .
Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
--RICHARD M. NIXON, "REAL PEACE" (1983)
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, represents, in the final analysis, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."
Jice Virago wrote:The acts are inexcusable, but we openned the door for this shit with the prisoner abuse and willful disregard of the geneva convention. Partisan forces will fight with whatever means they have and right now terror is the means. This is Eye for an Eye type stuff and its only going to get worse.
While I agree on some levels, there have always been, regardless of the fight . people who refused to lower themselves to these kind of levels, there are people with more direct reasons to kill someone than they had who would never ever think of doing so. Murdering in cold blood is something we refer to with contempt. When an enemy force engages our soldiers, I suck it up as the cost of war, but this targeting civilians intentionally thing causes my gorge to rise. The Pentagon, that was war, Twin Towers that was animals. Don't think I am saying America is superior and never fucks up, but at least we do not pride ourselves in the slaughter of innocents.
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
Jice Virago wrote:The acts are inexcusable, but we openned the door for this shit with the prisoner abuse and willful disregard of the geneva convention. Partisan forces will fight with whatever means they have and right now terror is the means. This is Eye for an Eye type stuff and its only going to get worse.
While I agree on some levels, there have always been, regardless of the fight . people who refused to lower themselves to these kind of levels, there are people with more direct reasons to kill someone than they had who would never ever think of doing so. Murdering in cold blood is something we refer to with contempt. When an enemy force engages our soldiers, I suck it up as the cost of war, but this targeting civilians intentionally thing causes my gorge to rise. The Pentagon, that was war, Twin Towers that was animals. Don't think I am saying America is superior and never fucks up, but at least we do not pride ourselves in the slaughter of innocents.
Dude, you're still patting yourselves on the back for ending WWII by nuking 2 Japanese cities and killing a couple hundred thousand civilians. Persepctive; honestly, it's free for all, get some.
Jice Virago wrote:The acts are inexcusable, but we openned the door for this shit with the prisoner abuse and willful disregard of the geneva convention. Partisan forces will fight with whatever means they have and right now terror is the means. This is Eye for an Eye type stuff and its only going to get worse.
While I agree on some levels, there have always been, regardless of the fight . people who refused to lower themselves to these kind of levels, there are people with more direct reasons to kill someone than they had who would never ever think of doing so. Murdering in cold blood is something we refer to with contempt. When an enemy force engages our soldiers, I suck it up as the cost of war, but this targeting civilians intentionally thing causes my gorge to rise. The Pentagon, that was war, Twin Towers that was animals. Don't think I am saying America is superior and never fucks up, but at least we do not pride ourselves in the slaughter of innocents.
Dude, you're still patting yourselves on the back for ending WWII by nuking 2 Japanese cities and killing a couple hundred thousand civilians. Persepctive; honestly, it's free for all, get some.
Losses in soldiers for an attack and conquest of Japan: 2 Million. Estimated Civllian Casualties in same: 8 Millon. Not saying it was the best call, but it sure beat that concept. But that is an entirely different issue. Historical Reality, it is cheap, buy a book and get some.
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
Oh, I don't deny a land war with Japan would have been expensive, but I'm not the one claiming the moral higher ground.
Again, it's a matter of persepective. You see your actions in bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki as completely justifiable in the context in which they occured. Guess what, so do terrorists.
You can't however, give blanket condemnation to targetting civilians when you're not above it yourself.
Well, under that analogy, if beheading a few westerners risks fewer muslim lives than open conflict with the (vastly superior) invading forces, they are justified in doing it? After all, the civilian casualties we caused with the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were enemy civilians? Dropping a nuke on civilian population is no less barbaric than beheading foriegners, its just one act requires a far more visceral and and personal element. The thousands who died to radiation poisoning after the fact arguably suffered just as horribly, if not more, than the men in those videos (assuming they were alive when their heads were removed), depending on wether you feel 5 minutes of agonizing death is worse than hours-weeks-days of prolonged organ failure and feverish death.
Historical Perspective: The choice to use the atomic bomb was made because we wanted Japan to surrender before the deadline the Soviets had set, because of the concessions we had agreed to. We were more concerned about future cock fencing with Stalin than our own men, so we used the most horrific weapon ever developed on a civilian population. It didn't work, as Japan did not surrender soon enough, and we ultimately justified those bombings with the argument you put forward in your last post. Japan was already contemplating surrender at the time. Extensive records of Truman's notes and official Japanese correspondences demonstrate this in great detail.
All that said....
There is no greater weapon than that of psychology, in this case terror. Wether we choose to aknowledge this or not, the terror acts occuring in the arabian penninsula WILL affect how willing westerners are to do business in that area and how arabic governments view us. Our own acts of inhumanity in ironically the same prison Sadam imprissoned people are making this course seem acceptable to many of those people. We are an invading power with vasty superior force, so their options for recourse are limited and in publicly abandoning the geneva convention we expanded their list of acceptable (to the local occupied people) responses. Unless we demonstrate total accountability and severely punish people responsible for the prison debacle up and down the chain of command, we are not really in a position to take the moral high ground. Right now it just seems like people are getting punnished for getting caught, rather than the acts themselves.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .
Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
--RICHARD M. NIXON, "REAL PEACE" (1983)
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, represents, in the final analysis, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."
no no no no. terrorists only do it because they are madmen who hate liberty. by even suggesting otherwise you are supporting their unjust cause against humanity.
The big difference IMHO Jice, is that these are not freedom fighters working to repel an invader, the most recent beheading occured in Saudi Arabia. These are terrorists who claim no country.
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
That is a difference, I agree, but we are also talking about a conquered people attempting to weaken existing alliances we have in the region. The Saudis are (at least until we get our puppet government in place) a needed ally at the moment, and the terrorists know this. Saudi Arabia is willing to work with us (despite numerous examples of them paying lip service to fundimentalist muslims) because it is financially rewarding for them to do so. In attacking businessmen, the terrorists are weakening the incentiveves that the Saudis have for cooperation with us. Killing soldiers does not accomplish this because soldiers exist to fight and die, and everyone accepts this on some level. When you start lopping the heads off of the businessmen, the guys who are in it just for the money start running for cover. This is the effect they are looking for.
The US has not been an occupied nation since the days before our founding, so it is impossible to judge how we would react in their shoes. An optimist would like to believe we are above that kind of shit, but seeing how we treat non-western foreigners (and for that matter, our own people at times) I don't know as we are any better.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .
Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
--RICHARD M. NIXON, "REAL PEACE" (1983)
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, represents, in the final analysis, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."
Kylere wrote:The Pentagon, that was war, Twin Towers that was animals.
did i read that right?
do you realize how many civilians work at the pentagon? do you realize that every single person that died that day was an innocent bystandard, civilian or military. that was not war. that was no different than the twin towers or the plane crashing in PA.
Kylere wrote:The Pentagon, that was war, Twin Towers that was animals.
did i read that right?
do you realize how many civilians work at the pentagon? do you realize that every single person that died that day was an innocent bystandard, civilian or military. that was not war. that was no different than the twin towers or the plane crashing in PA.
Ermmm the Pentagon would be considered a military target regardless of the number of civilians that work there...It's a major C&C facility for the US military...The presence of a civilian workforce in a military facility does not make it less of a military facility...Civilians employed by the military at military installation are considered fair game under the Geneva Conventions...Attacking it with a civilian airliner would however be a war crime...
When an enemy force engages our soldiers, I suck it up as the cost of war, but this targeting civilians intentionally thing causes my gorge to rise.
in combat, sure to a certain degree. but i think the lives lossed are equal regardless if the person wore a uniform or a suit to work during 9/11. i wouldn't look at a list of names of those lives lost at the pentagon and shrug off the soldiers lost and feel sympathy for the civilians. i would feel sympathy for all of them equally.
Spang, when they choose to work at the Pentagon those GS civilians know it is not a job at the Farmers Market, it is the center physical structure of the largest and most capable military force on the planet. I hate to be all Clerks here, but while I feel sorry for the little contractors, they knew the risk when they worked there.
I worked at an Air Force base and we had serious bomb threats, we knew it was part of the price you pay for working there. When we bomb an opposing military base we are fully aware they may have noncombatants working there, however it is unrealistic to disregard a major target.
The Pentagon is a legitimate military target, Bin Ladens people had openly declared war ( which means they did not sneak attack on it like the Japanese on Pearl for example) therefore I cannot hold anything other than a sense of damn they got us. Now the WTC was an entirely civilian target, no manufacturing of weapons, no planning, no guns. Of course they used civilians in both attacks ( the passengers) and invalidated any claim of it being anything other than terrorisrm rather than warfare, but I do feel for those who were at the WTC more than those who were at the Pentagon. I pity the civilians, and honor the military dead.
She Dreams in Digital
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