10 Commandments come down

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » August 22, 2003, 12:43 pm

Oh I don't think he's a kook, he sees the order as an unjust law so he's fighting against it, but the thing is, it's based off of his religious views, which have no room in the judicial process. it just can't have room if the entire process is to remain fair and balanced.

he just needs to render under caesar like I said earlier. His religious rights are not being infringed by him not being able to display the ten commandments on government property. When the government comes into my home and arrests me for praying or I can no longer get a job because I am a Christian, then we have a problem. That's just my view.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » August 22, 2003, 12:47 pm

Voronwe, if that judge was to treat a muslim at trial any different than he would a christain he'd be violating his own christain beliefs.

Bigotry and christainity conflict.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » August 22, 2003, 12:53 pm

On a more philosophical note, is not the removal of all relgious trappings from public places not a religious movement in itself?

Athiests are not trying to remove religion from all public places, just all government places. The difference is enormous.

The people claiming, unbelievably, that the 10 Commandments is in no way associated with Christianity are grasping at straws at best in order to justify the melding of church and state. I sincerely doubt these hypocrites would want any other religion openly endorsed on government property. I always favor Satanism as a good example. Imagine any religion in the world that scares or disgusts you, and put that in place of every religious icon that you treasure. That's how many people feel about Christianity. Besides, seperation of church and state is in place to protect your religious freedom. I can't fathom why you would want to fuck with that.

However, all of this dosen't matter. The decision has been made by the highest court in America and now Alabama has a rogue judge on their hands. He has obviously lost all sense of reality at this point by being so caught up in his self-induced religious rapture. Any objectivity he once proclaimed, has been proven false. I also saw him on the news last night and I swear he was going to start foaming at the mouth. He is a fanatic and it is quite disturbing to imagine he gained the position he currently holds.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » August 22, 2003, 12:54 pm

Adex I hate to disagree with you here but that does not bring me much comfort. How many whites were let off the hook by judges from murdering blacks when slaves were freed, due to their beliefs. Heck how many supposed witches were burned in salem by judges or town officials. I just don't trust beliefs to make judgement calls in a courtroom, I want law to do that, not whatever the flavor of the month is. We still see too much of flavor of the month rulings these days still.

in short, religious views have no place in the courtroom or by the very human nature, someone will be misjudged.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » August 22, 2003, 12:57 pm

I don't think this is about removing religious objects from all public places. It's about removing pieces very specific to a couple religions from in front of a state judicial building. You're still free to put the Baby Jebus' Neon Nativity on your front lawn.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 22, 2003, 12:58 pm

yeah to further Krimson's point:

because Christ would be fair to Muslims and Christians alike, does not mean that his followers would be. because somebody follows Christianity does not all of a sudden eliminate their human frailties.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 22, 2003, 12:59 pm

"You're still free to put the Baby Jebus' Neon Nativity on your front lawn"

You got one of those too?

What do you do with the Pink Flamingos?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 22, 2003, 1:00 pm

masteen wrote:I don't think this is about removing religious objects from all public places. It's about removing pieces very specific to a couple religions from in front of a state judicial building. You're still free to put the Baby Jebus' Neon Nativity on your front lawn.

as well as build a cross from here to the moon on your Church's land.

You can pay to rent a billboard and put bible verses on it.

you can pay for television commercials saying "Jesus is great"

notice the theme here? you have to pay for your access like everybody else in this society. You don't get free state sponsored publicity. Obviously, the religious right wants free state sponsored publicity, so they will fight this sort of thing.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » August 22, 2003, 1:05 pm

Krimson, Voronwe,

The actions of bigotry and injustice you mention are human failings.

They are not inline with christain morals.

Avestan · Post by **Avestan** » August 22, 2003, 1:06 pm

It is a statue. It is blown way out of proportion. It is not worth our time and not worth the time of anyone else. It is a total waste of taxpaper money to deal with this.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » August 22, 2003, 1:07 pm

did you read any of this thread?
what if they made a statue of a pentagram, you think people arguing over that would be worth the trouble?

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » August 22, 2003, 1:08 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Krimson, Voronwe,

The actions of bigotry and injustice you mention are human failings.

They are not inline with christain morals.

That's exactly my point though. Religious views having a bearing in a courtroom cannot account for human frailties, and the end result is someone gets wronged according to our laws. I am not going to lie, I would love it if Americas entire system was based on a Christian Theocracy, but it's not.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 22, 2003, 1:11 pm

Avestan wrote:It is a statue. It is blown way out of proportion. It is not worth our time and not worth the time of anyone else. It is a total waste of taxpaper money to deal with this.

the person wasting $5000 of taxpayer money per day is the Judge.

Perhaps he should have thought about the consequences of all this before HE decided to put this statue in the courthouse, like it was his house. Yeah it is all a waste of taxpayer money. And the person responsible for wasting that money is the judge.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » August 22, 2003, 1:12 pm

Let me recap.

Voronwe said: That guy is probably a bigot in private.

I said: If he is he's a hypocrite.

Krimson said: In the past professing christains have done injustice.

I said: Their actions were not bibical.

So far my comments do not address the legality of that statue on public property.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » August 22, 2003, 1:15 pm

agreed adex, not trying to pick a fight with ya.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 22, 2003, 1:16 pm

me neither =)

Apostate · Post by **Apostate** » August 22, 2003, 1:20 pm

Dalmoth wrote: Apathy is what is making this country weaker. Agree or disagree with Moore, he is starting to get people here to actually do something other than ignore whats going on in our society.

On a more philosophical note, is not the removal of all relgious trappings from public places not a religious movement in itself?

Even atheism meets one of the definitions of religion.

Richard John Neuhaus has written a bit along those lines, about the 'Naked Public Square' where religious speech is barred.

Father Neuhas wrote: The unhappy result is that, wherever government goes, religion must retreat, lest there be a forbidden "establishment" of religion. And in the modern world, government goes almost everywhere. The unhappy result is that "the separation of church and state" has come to mean the separation of religion from public life. In the language of the social sciences, this is a sure formula for the "moral delegitimation" of our form of constitutional government. The naked public square cannot be democratically sustained, as witness the concerns that have brought these hearings into being.

I'm not sure I particularly agree with that, as I think you can draw a clear distinction between a representative of the government speaking from the authority of his position, and the same man or woman speaking as a person unaffliated with the government- admittedly with some difficulty.

As for Moore, I personally am kind of cynical about his stand. The man comes from a state with an extremely powerful religious constituency who were ultimately responsible for electing him. Whether or not his stance is from earnest held beliefs, he stands in an excellent position to be a hero to strong far right-wing political organizations, and is already an elected official. That to me makes his civil disobediance immediately suspect to me. A more honest and moral stance would have been to resign his position under protest than break an oath he had sworn to uphold.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 22, 2003, 5:34 pm

Krimson Klaw wrote:Read this kyoukan
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/009446.htm

Even this liberal is calling it civil disobedience.
http://warliberal.com/mt/blog/archives/006219.html

now kindly shut up, I'm getting tired of proving you wrong lately.

wow, if even the dirty liberals agree with you then you must be right.

civil disobedience is a form of protest. this judge isn't protesting anything; he is just disobeying the law.

by your logic I could get pulled over for speeding and tell the cop I was using civil disobedience to protest speed limits set by the government.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » August 22, 2003, 5:36 pm

OMG you are daft, civil disobediance is a peaceful protest of a law BY BREAKING IT YOU FREAKING MORON FROM OUTER SPACE. STOP REPLYING TO ME YOU IGNORANT PIECE OF TRASH

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 22, 2003, 6:22 pm

unlike you I'm not going to draw attention away from your losing argument by bringing up the fact that you typed most of that in caps and therefore are stupid etc. etc. like you do to me all the time. it might be hard for someone of your ilk to actually argue the issue, but do try. or stop posting on this thread. I don't care which, but an effective arguement for your position is rarely "OMG YOURE SO WRONG AND STUPID AND OH MY GOD YOURE WRONG AND DUMB"

but hey maybe your buddy cartalas is buying it. he seems to be at about your intellectual capacity.

they key word you fail to grasp (or maybe you do grasp it but your poor little battered internet ego that seems to be so important to you refuses to allow you to acknowledge how wrong you are) is protest. he isn't protesting anything; he is merely disobeying the law. the time for protesting is long since gone once two courts have ruled against you.

once again, by your definition, anyone who breaks any law could basically rationalize it by calling it civil disobedience.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » August 22, 2003, 6:24 pm

Yep, you are still a moron. I beg of you, seek help. At the very least, do some research on civil disobedience. I hope you at least realize that civil disobedience is breaking the law right? Your argument sounds like you think there is a rule somewhere that if someone breaks out their civil disobedience card then they are exempt from punishment, or have to be punished by a special set of rules. That's not the case.

-edit and since you mention protest, he protested having to take down the statue, and once he was ordered to, he decided to disobey the order and start his civil disobediance. A peaceful protest of a law by breaking it. Try looking up protest in the dictionary, it gives some examples of law protest. Matter of fact, don't bother looking anything up, it seems to suit you.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 22, 2003, 6:40 pm

yes nice totally non-sensical counter argument that fails to address anything I said logically or topically.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » August 22, 2003, 6:44 pm

What the? Get off of my planet you walking life support for a vagina.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 22, 2003, 6:54 pm

Yeah the productive and meaningful arguments relevant to the topic I'm trying to discuss never stop flowing from you do they?

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » August 22, 2003, 7:02 pm

kyoukan wrote:Yeah the productive and meaningful arguments relevant to the topic I'm trying to discuss never stop flowing from you do they?

You mean like this?

kyoukan wrote:what is it like to have a 2200 post count and not ever once have contributed anything useful to any discussion?

kyoukan wrote:I tend to associate with educated and civilized people capable of conducting a conversation above the level of a struggling 5th grade student.

kyoukan wrote: Do you ever bother reading threads or do you just mash the keyboard with your stubby tard fingers and hope whatever comes out is legible?

kyoukan wrote: I don't understand. Are you saying your contribution to this messageboard are funnier and/or more original than mine?

Nice try wanna be topic nazi, try practicing what you freaking preach.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » August 22, 2003, 7:03 pm

Krimson Klaw wrote:What the? Get off of my planet you walking life support for a vagina.

lol that was a good one

Say the judge was a Satan worshipper, and he made a big monument promoting Satanic rituals and belifs, WOULD THE CHRISTIANS BE PISSED OFF THEN??????of COURSE....but if its A CHRISTIAN MONUMENT.....its Civil Disobediance hmmmmm

put all the 10-commandments, adam and eve, and moses swallowing a whale to make it into bread to feed the starving israelites monuments you want in your own home or in your own church, mosque, temple etc, but not on a godamn government building

Acies · Post by **Acies** » August 22, 2003, 7:04 pm

I think this issue has been side-tracked.

Case and point, the Chruch (And by that, I mean religion) should not be involved in ANY way with the judical process. The reasons for this are many and varied. Do you remember when the church last held serious sway over the law? Remember what it was called?

The inquisition.

Anyway, imo those fucking commandments belong in his chambers for him to privately reflect on. If he wants to broadcast his beliefs then he should buy air time with a public access television network.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 22, 2003, 7:10 pm

Can a judge breaking the law be considered civil disobedience? He is the law.

He definitely should have resigned before doing so.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 22, 2003, 7:25 pm

Krimson Klaw wrote:
kyoukan wrote:Yeah the productive and meaningful arguments relevant to the topic I'm trying to discuss never stop flowing from you do they?
You mean like this?
kyoukan wrote:what is it like to have a 2200 post count and not ever once have contributed anything useful to any discussion?

kyoukan wrote:I tend to associate with educated and civilized people capable of conducting a conversation above the level of a struggling 5th grade student.

kyoukan wrote: Do you ever bother reading threads or do you just mash the keyboard with your stubby tard fingers and hope whatever comes out is legible?

kyoukan wrote: I don't understand. Are you saying your contribution to this messageboard are funnier and/or more original than mine?
Nice try wanna be topic nazi, try practicing what you freaking preach.

None of those were in response to a topic of debate other than possibly Cartalas' claim to be a member of the human race. Except for one of them (the second to last one), which was merely in response to a post where I made you look like a fucking moron that doesn't read anything before responding.. again.

God its like talk to a child. A stupid child.

Acies · Post by **Acies** » August 22, 2003, 7:27 pm

kyoukan wrote:God its like talk to a child. A stupid child.

I love irony

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » August 23, 2003, 2:55 am

Ha. Judge got suspended today.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 23, 2003, 3:25 am

Civil disobedience is the breaking of a law. You are arguing semantics.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 23, 2003, 5:35 am

I'm not arguing what civil disobedience is. I'm saying that this asshole isn't protesting anything. He is just disobeying the law.

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » August 23, 2003, 8:50 am

Kyoukan wrote:I'm not arguing what civil disobedience is. I'm saying that this asshole isn't protesting anything. He is just disobeying the law.

civil disobedience
n.
Refusal to obey civil laws in an effort to induce change in governmental policy or legislation, characterized by the use of passive resistance or other nonviolent means.

It's open to debate whether or not his goal is to enact change. His actions could easily be interpreted (or misinterpreted) as protesting against the separation of church and state.

I suspect that Kyou doubts his goal is really that lofty. I believe her point is that he's just a dipshit, hick, bible thumper who's head has gotten too big for his own good and is simply pulling a /em Judge Dredd voice,"I am the law!" type of nose thumbing gesture against the federal government.

Given the fact that a 220+ year old policy isn't at all likely to be tossed out on this fuckstick's say so, it can reasonably be interpreted that this fucker is just tooting his own horn for everyone to see. Thus saying that he isn't practicing civil disobedience isn't as absurd as you might think it is. To reiterate, it all simply depends on whether or not you think this guy is out to rewrite the lawbooks with his "protest".

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 23, 2003, 9:08 am

no I'm saying that defiance of a law you are being charged with in advance is not civil disobedience. civil disobedience is refusing an order from a police officer if you're protesting something, or throwing blood on some old rich cunt with a fur coat, or soaping a window, or in extreme cases blocking traffic or vandalising public or private property. All of these are actions taken to indirectly effect the goal you are trying to achieve with your protest.

If moore wants to protest a court's decision that is his right as an american citizen. he cannot, however, defy a judge's final ruling. nobody can, but especially not a fucking judge who takes an oath to uphold the law. I don't know why it is so difficult to understand that inaction or defiance after a judge's ruling that calls for action is not a form of protest. If a judge sentences me to prison for a crime I committed and I defy his ruling and escape, is that a form of protest? no it's not.

I just read on CNN that he's suspended now upon investigation of his ethics. he'll probably only get censured but I hope they can his ass.

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » August 23, 2003, 10:57 am

can you show me the aethist's bible type book ... ? or where they meet to pray? its not really a religion its a thought process

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » August 25, 2003, 1:02 pm

Assuming the kiddies are done arguing over the color blue....

Seems that Missouri has fairly well hidden monument of the Ten Commandments in the garden behind the state capitol as well. I expect this little tiff is going to affect more than Alabama.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » August 25, 2003, 2:59 pm

How long has the Missouri statue been there Falla? I tend to believe people look at these issues in terms of "grandfather" clauses. If the Missouri statue has been there for say 50 years (out of my asshole guess), then people aren't as likely to be upset by it (does it have historical significance?), as they were when this judge decided to erect a new testament to his Christian piousness, in defiance of the laws and constitution he is sworn to uphold.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » August 25, 2003, 3:12 pm

No idea how long it has been there, Wulf. My guess would be since the garden was erected, mid-50s sometime.

As for historical significance the monument isn't attached to any other sort of display. I imagine someone will use that argument to try and keep it, but if the Alabama judge loses this fight (and he will ) enough attention will come to other monuments on public property that they will be removed as well.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » August 25, 2003, 5:20 pm

No idea how long it has been there, Wulf. My guess would be since the garden was erected, mid-50s sometime.

Wrong. I'll let you check the facts and share what you've learned with the rest of the class. Posting the information myself is a bit too easy.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » August 25, 2003, 6:17 pm

Facts incoming !!

About the Commandments: The marker was a gift of the Missouri State Aerie, Fraternal Order of Eagles, and was dedicated June 28, 1958, by Lt. Gov. Edward V. Long and ex-Gov. Forrest Smith

I think you are confused, Fair.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 25, 2003, 6:20 pm

About 5,000 years ago a bunch of religious and political hustlers got together to try to figure out how to control people and keep them in line. They knew people were basically stupid and would believe anything they were told, so they announced that God had given them some commandments, up on a mountain, when no one was around.

rofl, unfortunately even in present day there are some that will fall for this sort of thing. You can make 10 commandments for anything.

1.Thou shalt not train
2.Thou shalt not steamroll
3.Thou shalt not twink
4.Thou shalt not cyber thy guildmembers spouse
5.Thou shalt not believe the WoW hype
6.Thou shalt not say Thou Shalt not
7.Thou shalt not fake LD on Raids
8.Thou shalt not guild hop (doh!)
9.Thou shalt not die to rage
10. Thou shalt not beg!

--------------

But seriously, get that shit off our government and public buildings. I don't want religious peddlers calling me, coming up to my door and I don't want to see religious crap on buildings that I have to go to. Is that so hard? Feel free to take the "In God We Trust" off our money as well.

Again, I don't mind anyone practicing their religion and holding their beliefs but Im not going to ring doorbells and tell people they should be atheists so I dont want people bugging me either.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » August 25, 2003, 10:24 pm

I think you are confused, Fair.

As usual, you are wrong.

http://stacks.msnbc.com/local/wvtm/a1393461.asp

Moore installed the monument after the building closed on the night of July 31, 2001, without telling any other justices. But he did tell Florida television evangelist D. James Kennedy, who had a crew from his Coral Ridge Ministries film the installation and offered videotapes of it for a donation of $19. Moore has appeared numerous times on Kennedy's national syndicated religious television show.

I eluded to his attention whoring attempt in my initial post. I know it's hard to imagine, but he has pulled this shit in the past. He puts the mental in fundamentalist.

Thanks for trying though. I'll try and make the next one a bit easier.

Silvarel Mistmoon · Post by **Silvarel Mistmoon** » August 25, 2003, 10:25 pm

Just thought I would add that Riley does not support Moore in breaking the court order.

I don't understand what the big fuss is about, it's not in the middle of the walk way, its not being forced on the public to read it. It would be different if people were forced to read it or quote it in the court room but that isn't happening.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » August 25, 2003, 10:28 pm

I don't understand what the big fuss is about, it's not in the middle of the walk way, its not being forced on the public to read it. It would be different if people were forced to read it or quote it in the court room but that isn't happening.

Easy to say when it's your religion.

The "big fuss" is about the seperation of church and state, you know, the Constitution and all that jazz. If it's not such a big deal, then just let them take down the ninja-placed biblical babble. Simple as that.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 25, 2003, 10:43 pm

Fairweather Pure wrote:
I think you are confused, Fair.

As usual, you are wrong.

http://stacks.msnbc.com/local/wvtm/a1393461.asp

Moore installed the monument after the building closed on the night of July 31, 2001, without telling any other justices. But he did tell Florida television evangelist D. James Kennedy, who had a crew from his Coral Ridge Ministries film the installation and offered videotapes of it for a donation of $19. Moore has appeared numerous times on Kennedy's national syndicated religious television show.

I eluded to his attention whoring attempt in my initial post. I know it's hard to imagine, but he has pulled this shit in the past. He puts the mental in fundamentalist.

Thanks for trying though. I'll try and make the next one a bit easier.

he's talking about the 10 commandments monument in the back garden of the missouri state capital.

Moore's is in alabama.

although I don't think there is a grandfather clause nor do I think that the one in missouri pre-dates the signing of the constitution which is what it would have to do to qualify for a gr andfather clause.

Izna Marcos · Post by **Izna Marcos** » August 26, 2003, 3:10 am

Update for ya...
http://apnews.excite.com/article/200308 ... EOV80.html

I love the part where, the people who helped him place it there, now, won't remove it. How digusting, least they can do, afterall, i think.And i'm hoping he gets far more than just suspended, they should sack his ass.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » August 26, 2003, 10:16 am

Correct, a cookie for Kyoukan. I was answering Wulfrans interrogative.

Silvarel Mistmoon · Post by **Silvarel Mistmoon** » August 26, 2003, 10:33 am

Here Fairweather sense you are so concerned about what is going on in Alabama I thought you might like to see some of what I call more important items in the News down here..............

http://www.nbc13.com/news/2418229/index ... d=10101622

NORTHPORT, Ala. -- A Northport family is living through the worst type of mystery tonight: Their 11-year-old daughter is missing.

Shae Ross vanished without a trace Tuesday morning while walking the 75 yards to her school-bus stop.

"My oldest daughter had left to go to school, the baby was still getting dressed, and she came in there and told her daddy she loved him and she'd see him in a little while," said Ross' mother, Beth Lowery.

But the family hasn't seen her since.

The morning started out as it usually does. Shae left the house to join her older sister for the bus ride to school. Shae's sister had left before Shae and was waiting at the bus stop, but Shae never arrived.

"We have one person who saw her after she left the house," said Terry Carroll of the Northport Police Department. "Then we don't know where she went or what happened."

One neighbor saw the 11-year-old pass by, but a neighbor further along did not.

Police have little to go on, and Beth Lowery fears the worst.

"I think someone was just sitting there and grabbed my baby," she said.

Police used a helicopter and a dog to search around the neighborhood for the missing girl, but so far, the search has turned up no clues.

The family hopes someone will see Shae and help her get home.

"Just bring my baby back home," Lowery said. "That's all I want. Just bring her back home."

Shae Ross was wearing a pink outfit with the word "brat" written on her shorts and shirt.

Anyone who has seen her should call the Northport Police Department at (205) 339-6600.

http://www.msnbc.com/local/WVTM/A1752752.asp

Shelby County Man Accused Of Sexual Assault

BIRMINGHAM, Ala., 4:21 p.m. CDT August 22, 2003 - A Shelby County man has been arrested for allegedly committing sexual assault, NBC13 reported.

Randy Buckner of Columbiana is charged with sodomy, attempted rape and possession of drug paraphernalia, authorities said.
The alleged assault happened Wednesday and involved a victim who knew Buckner, police said.

The victim's age was not known.

Buckner was being held in lieu of $63,000 bond, authorities said.

http://www.nbc13.com/news/2430782/detail.html

Gunfire Kills Two Birmingham Teens
Shooting Follows Dispute At Brighton Nightclub

POSTED: 9:50 a.m. CDT August 25, 2003

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. -- A weekend shooting claimed the lives of two Birmingham teenagers. Authorities have been searching for a gunman who fired into their car on a Bessemer highway following a dispute at a Brighton nightclub.

The victims, 16-year-old Owen Holden and 18-year-old Derrick Turnbow, were shot and killed early Saturday after leaving the Club R-and-B. The driver of the vehicle, 21-year-old Gordon Page, was wounded in the arm during the 5 a.m. shooting.

Page said one of his friends had gotten into a conflict with some people at the nightclub. Brighton police said the friend was arrested at the club and charged with disorderly conduct and resisting arrest.

Page believes that led to the shooting.

Holden had just started the 11th grade at Minor High School. Turnbow had earned his general equivalency diploma after leaving Wenonah High School and was working in Fairfield.

http://www.nbc13.com/politics/2429661/detail.html

Republican Party Opposes Riley's Tax Plan
Governor Surprised By Narrow Margin Of Defeat

POSTED: 2:33 p.m. CDT August 24, 2003

ORANGE BEACH, Ala. -- Gov. Bob Riley lost an important vote in his own political party Saturday.

At a Saturday meeting in Orange Beach, the State Republican Executive Committee voted 122-100 to encourage Alabama citizens to vote against Riley's tax and accountability plan on Sept. 9.

The Republican governor, who attended the party meeting, said he expected to lose the party vote, but he was surprised at the closeness. He said he didn't know he had that much support within his party.

A week earlier, the executive board of the State Democratic Party endorsed Riley's plan. Riley said that just shows the eclectic group behind his tax plan. Support has also come from the Business Council of Alabama and several other business groups, as well as several religious groups.

Previous Stories:
August 22, 2003: Governor Decides Against Special Session Before Sept. 9
August 22, 2003: Al Sharpton Endorses Riley Tax Plan
August 20, 2003: Remark By Riley Aide Draws Criticism
August 19, 2003: Employees Group Supports Tax Plan
August 18, 2003: Pastors Feel Political Heat On Tax Plan
August 18, 2003: Democrats Endorse Riley's Tax Plan
August 14, 2003: State Board Of Education Endorses Riley's Tax Plan
August 14, 2003: Riley Says Budgets Will Be Slashed If Tax Plan Fails
August 13, 2003: Tax Plan Could Reduce Local Property Tax Revenues
August 12, 2003: Riley Infomercials Seek To Shift Focus Of Tax Plan
August 10, 2003: 'Alabama Tea Party' Draws 2,000
August 6, 2003: Christian Coalition Disagrees Over Riley Tax Plan
August 6, 2003: UA President Campaigns For Riley Tax Plan
July 29, 2003: Tax Package Opponents Could Unveil Alternative Plan
July 27, 2003: Governor: Fate Of Plan Hinges On Informing Voters
July 22, 2003: Riley Continues Tax Campaign At 16th Street Baptist Church
July 20, 2003: Football Legends Support Governor's Tax Package
July 14, 2003: Riley Plans Tax Campaign For Next 57 Days
June 30, 2003: Republican Party Organizes Effort Against Tax Increase
June 25, 2003: Democrats Accuse Governor Of Partisan Politics

As you can see there is much more important things going on in this state then a statue sitting in a building. Something that is not affecting anyone who walks past it. It is simply sitting there.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 26, 2003, 11:01 am

The importance of the issue is relative. While I don't really give a fuck about the other news articles you posted, this issue I do care about, because my freedom and my future are at stake. You can shrug it off as meaningless, but it just highlights your ineptitude in understanding the importance of the situation.