Crav wrote:Science is exact given that the rules of the universe are exact. The best example I can give is a discussion I saw talking about the first few second after the Big Bang. We have been able see physics leading up till the first few second, but within those few seconds we can not say for sure that the rules are the same. So we know that the rules of the universe are not absolute, we see this in other astrologic anomalies as well. .
you are referring to the notion it is believed during the first 10(to the -43) seconds after the big bang, known as Planck Time the universe expanded in ways that are not possible after that period of time has passed.
IE there are other types of physics that applied then.
This is all part of Superstring Theory, and it should not be confused with observed fact. Nobody observered or measured the expansion of space after the Big Bang, therefore it is inaccurate to say that we "know the rules of the universe are not absolute". These are calculated predictions, which could be awesome calculations, and could be excellent approximations. But they could also be way the fuck off. They are calculated conclusions from some theoretical premises (talking about the exact process by which the big bang occured.)
But also it is important to recognize that because we do not know the mathematical relationships between the physics of pre-Planck Time and post-Planck Time, does not mean that there is not a fundamental continuation of physics across that time. Because we don't understand how a predicted state relates to a measured state does not mean there is no relationship.
Hence what you are saying is that you have faith that the truth is out there whether we know it or not with or without proof?
This is becoming seriously circular. I have no faith that the truth is out there. I know the truth is out there as is evident in the truths we have already discovered.
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
I think we've all pretty much taken this argument as far as it will go and the rest will just be us twisting semantics. I really appreciate the view points of everyone that posted . We can all agree that we believe in what we believe and know what we know regardless of reasons. Oh and yes I was talking about that particular theory Voronwe, since people were throwing out the Big Bang theory I'd thought I'd mention it . Thanks for the link, I was interested in learning more just hadn't gotten around to it. Of course if you don't agree that the argument is played out then please continue posting I'll be more than happy to continue .
Crav Veladorn
Darkblade of Tunare
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
- Albert Einstein
Honestly, what do any of us "know"?
Nothing. We know, for certainty, nothing. Everything is a compound of belief. Why? Because your perceptions determine your knowledge.
Allow me to explain.
Ever hear of "Plato's Cave"?
Let's go spelunking...
In roughly 400 b.c., the philosopher Plato postulated a scenario where people are born and live their entire lives imprisoned within a cave. The entrance to the cave is covered by a sheet of cloth, so that the only thing the cave inhabitants would ever perceive of the outside world would be passing 2D shadows of the external 3D reality.
Imagine... what would happen if someone from the outside world were to suddenly remove the veil from the doorway?
Here, Plato was attacking observation as a tool to knowledge, because his concept of the ideal society was one where knowledge should be withheld from the working class (slaves), who were to work without thinking while the elite philosopher-kings should think without working.
More contemporarily, we can take Plato's cave model to make a statement about the human condition. Basically it surmounts to people lacking objectivity living in a shadow of reality. This allegory should encourage self-examination and a constant questioning of what we regard as the truth about our world.
Science is testing hypothesis. Hypothesis is tested by obersavation. However, when you observations could very well be screwed up, how can you sincerely state you know the truth?
You have no fact, you have only belief. For all you know, your entire life could be a lie, cave-dweller.
Funny that you bring up Plato because along with his cave he also came up with paradeigma and the concept of Ideas ("eidos"). In this he says that all things come from paradeigma, where the ideal images of everything reside. Ideas are how people interpret the objects they see around them and try to make it closer to the ideal image that is not found on earth, but is in paradeigma. So in this way we know the truth, but can not reach it, we learn to approximate what we observe towards the truth that we know inside ourselves.
Another point of the cave allagory is:
If a prisoner says "That's a book" he thinks that the word "book" refers to the very thing he is looking at. But he would be wrong. He's only looking at a shadow. The real referent of the word "book" he cannot see. To see it, he would have to turn his head around.
Plato's point: the general terms of our language are not "names" of the physical objects that we can see. They are actually names of things that we cannot see, things that we can only grasp with the mind
Crav Veladorn
Darkblade of Tunare
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
- Albert Einstein
That is the problem with relying only on science. We take what we think we have see or interperted as fact or Truth with a capital T. Just like some fundamentalist on the belief side take the Bible literally as Truth with a capital T.
Somewhere in the middle is reality.
For hundreds of years, since Newton, we have understood Gravity to be a force. Hence just like we thought that the sound barrer cound't be broken we have thought that Gravity always acted in a similar fashon. Just before Einstein died he was working on a new theory, a theory that Gravity was not a force but a warp in Space. As of the last time I looked into this, probably 10 years ago, people were finally started to understand that theory to develop a new theory of gravity.
Science isn't exact, neither is faith. I for one believe we have to have both in order to truly understand our surroundings and Universe.
Hehe I agreed with that statement like two posts ago, just had to respond to Acies since he brought up Plato . Anyways like I said was fun hearing the opinion of others.
Crav Veladorn
Darkblade of Tunare
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
- Albert Einstein
More contemporarily, we can take Plato's cave model to make a statement about the human condition. Basically it surmounts to people lacking objectivity living in a shadow of reality. This allegory should encourage self-examination and a constant questioning of what we regard as the truth about our world.
Science is testing hypothesis. Hypothesis is tested by obersavation. However, when you observations could very well be screwed up, how can you sincerely state you know the truth?
You have no fact, you have only belief. For all you know, your entire life could be a lie, cave-dweller.
Let me give you a little lesson in philosophy since you don't read up on your shit before you spout it. Plato's Allegory of the Cave illustrates the ascention of the human mind. There are 4 stages that the mind travels through. The first being the only one you seem to know about, the world of illusion. Some minds are trapped in the first stage looking at shadow figures on the wall, but others move on.
The second stage consists of informed opinions and "common sense". This is represented by the people having the freedom to move around in the cave and realize what they've been seeing is shadows on the wall.
The third stage is those struggling through the corridor of the cave to the surface. These minds are aquiring knowledge through reason.
And finally, those who reach the surface attain the highest level of reality, having reached it by a combination of wisdom and intelligence.
But yeah not everyone is trapped inside the cave like you. This was a bad example. A better example would have been Rene DesCartes' rationalist theory of how can we possibly know that we are alive. He concluded: I think, therefore, I am.
Not one credible philosopher has ever tried to argue that we do not actually exist, or that our entire lives are lies as you try to claim. So eat a dick, simpleton.
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
We do know gravity. I have never heard of Einstein trying to disprove the law of gravity, nor of any physicist working on such a theory. Please document this crap if you are going to spew it.
Science isn't exact, neither is faith.
I grant that science is not always exact, but it sometimes is. And most often is as close as humanly possible to being exact. Faith on the other hand, is never ever exact. You are trying to put them in the same boat but they do not belong. Faith comes into play only when science cannot explain a certain phenomenon. Religion itself exists for this reason only, to explain phenomenon that we do not understand.
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
We do know gravity. I have never heard of Einstein trying to disprove the law of gravity, nor of any physicist working on such a theory. Please document this crap if you are going to spew it.
Science isn't exact, neither is faith.
I grant that science is not always exact, but it sometimes is. And most often is as close as humanly possible to being exact. Faith on the other hand, is never ever exact. You are trying to put them in the same boat but they do not belong. Faith comes into play only when science cannot explain a certain phenomenon. Religion itself exists for this reason only, to explain phenomenon that we do not understand.
Why don't they belong? You tell me the difference between a scientific theory and faith. You punching in equations into a calculator and surmising that it might be so is no different than faith. It's an impass. You tell me where the matter came from that started the big bang other than from God and I'll tell you how God came into existence in the first place, and prove that he does exist. We can do neither right now (Oh and save the but one day science will be able to prove it crap), but both of us have faith that one day we will be able to.
-edit I am not trying to come off as anti-science. I love science, was my favorite subject in school and I excelled at it. I am just trying to point out that those of you that take the high ground against religion are no different than us. Of COURSE there are differences between the two. It is possible to be both scientifically logical and spiritual. Just because I don't believe that a big bang created everything from nothing simply on its own does not mean I am totally without logic.
Last edited by Krimson Klaw on July 11, 2003, 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
We do know gravity. I have never heard of Einstein trying to disprove the law of gravity, nor of any physicist working on such a theory. Please document this crap if you are going to spew it.
It's pretty simple: According to our current models and understanding of the construction of the universe there needs to be a Gravity Particle (Graviton). All our attempts to find it have been fruitless, hence, gaping fucking hole in the equations.
Don't even get me started on Photons acting like waves OR particles depending on how you look at them. . .
You tell me the difference between a scientific theory and faith.
There's scientific theory, then there's scienific law.
I grant that science is not always exact, but it sometimes is. And most often is as close as humanly possible to being exact. Faith on the other hand, is never ever exact.
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
You tell me the difference between a scientific theory and faith.
There's scientific theory, then there's scienific law.
I grant that science is not always exact, but it sometimes is. And most often is as close as humanly possible to being exact. Faith on the other hand, is never ever exact.
I was making reference to the Big Bang theory, your belief in how the universe was created.
Krimson Klaw wrote:You punching in equations into a calculator and surmising that it might be so is no different than faith. It's an impass.
I always love the laws of physics. Of course, like everything else, there are rules and those rules have to be established. Now perhaps you physics majors would care to explain who set the rules? Somewhere, somehow, particles had to have been created. Did they magically appear?
Right Kilmoll. I have no problem playing by the rules of the game we are in, I just have a different opinion on how the game got started in the first place.
We do know gravity. I have never heard of Einstein trying to disprove the law of gravity, nor of any physicist working on such a theory. Please document this crap if you are going to spew it.
Xyun, you're a moron. Newton's "Law of Gravity" only exaplins the affects. We understand that here on Earth, gravity exerts an accelerative force of 9.8 m/s^2. We also understand that the further away two objects are, the less force gravity exerts, and have some more nifty equations to explain that relationship.
We have no fucking idea what actually causes this force. Maybe you should LEARN about something before you try to argue about it.
Hey! I don't know how the universe was created so I'll pick from these 2 options:
1) Infinite invisible bearded guy made it happen as an act of will.
2) Something a little less unbelievable than (1) that we haven't got our primitive brains around yet.
If that's the case then who created god? Or is god just "infinite" with no beginning and no end? If he is and that's an acceptable proposition then I'll use the same definition for the universe and leave it at that, cutting out the big man upstairs, his son/prophet/burning bush/wtf ever and all the other rilly rilly great guys who've been interpreting 'his' rules for us for the last couple of thousand years.
vn_Tanc wrote:If that's the case then who created god? Or is god just "infinite" with no beginning and no end? If he is and that's an acceptable proposition then I'll use the same definition for the universe and leave it at that, cutting out the big man upstairs, his son/prophet/burning bush/wtf ever and all the other rilly rilly great guys who've been interpreting 'his' rules for us for the last couple of thousand years.
Krimson Klaw wrote:You tell me where the matter came from that started the big bang other than from God and I'll tell you how God came into existence in the first place, and prove that he does exist. We can do neither right now, but both of us have faith that one day we will be able to.
Xyun, you're a moron. Newton's "Law of Gravity" only exaplins the affects. We understand that here on Earth, gravity exerts an accelerative force of 9.8 m/s^2. We also understand that the further away two objects are, the less force gravity exerts, and have some more nifty equations to explain that relationship.
Thank you, o' man of science, for clearing that up for me. I'm glad to see you retained some jr. high education.
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
Xyun, you're a moron. Newton's "Law of Gravity" only exaplins the affects. We understand that here on Earth, gravity exerts an accelerative force of 9.8 m/s^2. We also understand that the further away two objects are, the less force gravity exerts, and have some more nifty equations to explain that relationship.
Thank you, o' man of science, for clearing that up for me. I'm glad to see you retained some jr. high education.
I just wish you would have finished jr. high. Just because we have a few sets of equations describing observed effects of a force does not mean we have even an inkling of the cause.
Einstein was working on a theory that gravity was caused by the curvature of space (which is related to an objects mass) to explain the errors that creep into equations that directly relate an objects mass to it's gravitational attraction.
Thank you Masteen. I have had 5 new C/S deals thrown on me this week, all of which need months worth of work to truly understand what my client is wanting to do. I didn't have time to look up the details as it's been a while, thanks for sheding so light on the subject.
More contemporarily, we can take Plato's cave model to make a statement about the human condition. Basically it surmounts to people lacking objectivity living in a shadow of reality. This allegory should encourage self-examination and a constant questioning of what we regard as the truth about our world.
Science is testing hypothesis. Hypothesis is tested by obersavation. However, when you observations could very well be screwed up, how can you sincerely state you know the truth?
You have no fact, you have only belief. For all you know, your entire life could be a lie, cave-dweller.
Let me give you a little lesson in philosophy since you don't read up on your shit before you spout it. Plato's Allegory of the Cave illustrates the ascention of the human mind. There are 4 stages that the mind travels through. The first being the only one you seem to know about, the world of illusion. Some minds are trapped in the first stage looking at shadow figures on the wall, but others move on.
The second stage consists of informed opinions and "common sense". This is represented by the people having the freedom to move around in the cave and realize what they've been seeing is shadows on the wall.
The third stage is those struggling through the corridor of the cave to the surface. These minds are aquiring knowledge through reason.
And finally, those who reach the surface attain the highest level of reality, having reached it by a combination of wisdom and intelligence.
But yeah not everyone is trapped inside the cave like you. This was a bad example. A better example would have been Rene DesCartes' rationalist theory of how can we possibly know that we are alive. He concluded: I think, therefore, I am.
Not one credible philosopher has ever tried to argue that we do not actually exist, or that our entire lives are lies as you try to claim. So eat a dick, simpleton.
Educate yourself. I have no idea what that was you posted, but it was not Plato's work. His intended idea is simple. What we see is not nessicarily the truth.
The Allegory of the Cave wrote:And suppose once more, that he is reluctantly dragged up a steep and rugged ascent, and held fast until he's forced into the presence of the sun himself, is he not likely to be pained and irritated? When he approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled, and he will not be able to see anything at all of what are now called realities.
Not all in a moment, he said.
He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And first he will see the shadows best, next the reflections of men and other objects in the water, and then the objects themselves; then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven; and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day?
Certainly.
Last of he will be able to see the sun, and not mere reflections of him in the water, but he will see him in his own proper place, and not in another; and he will contemplate him as he is.
Certainly.
He will then proceed to argue that this is he who gives the season and the years, and is the guardian of all that is in the visible world, and in a certain way the cause of all things which he and his fellows have been accustomed to behold?
Clearly, he said, he would first see the sun and then reason about him.
And when he remembered his old habitation, and the wisdom of the den and his fellow-prisoners, do you not suppose that he would felicitate himself on the change, and pity them?
Thanks for linking that. I studied philosophy for 5 years in college you fucking numbskull. DID YOU EVEN READ THE FUCKING THING??? I can't believe that you reference the work without reading it or understanding what the fuck it is you read, then come tell me that I'm wrong. Actually, I can believe it.
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
Religion is a difficult thing to debate, particularily when you shake a person's beliefs and make them question things they aren't ready to question, or are simply content to not know, tempers will flare and nothing is accomplished... but I'm digging this thread and frankly I find different people's opinions on the matter especially interesting, so here is mine.
Simply put, organized religion just doesn't work logically, on so many levels. If you look at things objectively, there simply isn't enough information out there to determine something as profound as a one true faith. So how does religion work? Why do people feel the need to make a "leap of faith" to work around the lack of factual verifiable information?
What makes religion work is the fact that people, no matter who you are, where you live, or what religion you are geographically predisposed to, have a feeling of incompleteness when burning questions such as "Why am I here?", "How did I get here?" or "What will happen to me when I die?" go unanswered. People without answers are uncontent... enter organized religion, the great pacification of the multitudes.
I am strong enough to say that I do not know which is the one true path of enlightenment, but I do know that the road of selective exposure and sheer geographic probability most likely isn't it.
Adex_Xeda wrote:Ever wonder why faith is hard for people?
YES
It is senseless to argue/reason with/explain faith to a person who thinks the way Xyun does. I believe people should find faith on their own, no one should explain it to them for it means something different to everyone.
To better understand all the schools of religious thought let us examine how "Shit Happens" is filtered through the ethereal plethora:
Taoism:
Shit happens.
If you can shit, it isn't shit.
Shit happens, so flow with it.
Hare Krishna:
Shit Happens, Rama Rama Ding Ding.
She-it happens, She-it happens, happens, happens,
she-it, she-it... (Repeat until you become one with she-it)
Please take this flower and buy our shit.
Confucianism:
Confucious say, "Shit happens".
Confucious says, "If shit has to happen, let it happen PROPERLY."
Buddhism:
If shit happens, it isn't really shit.
If shit happens, it isn't really happening TO anyone.
Shit will happen again to you next time.
Only he who totally gives up the desire for shit will have salvation.
Zen:
What is the sound of shit happening?
7th Day Adventism:
Shit happens on Saturdays.
Hinduism:
I've seen this shit happening before.
This shit is not a religion, it is the way of life.
This shit happening IS you.
Protestantism:
If shit happens, it happens to someone else.
If shit happens, praise the lord for it!
Presbyterianism:
This shit was bound to happen.
Calvinism:
Shit happens because you don't work hard enough.
Episcopalianism:
If shit happens, hold a procession.
It's not so bad if shit happens, as long as you serve the right wine with it.
Methodist:
It's not so bad if shit happens, as long as you serve grape juice with it.
Lutheranism:
Shit happens, but as long as you're sorry, it's OK.
Have faith that shit will happen.
If shit happens, don't talk about it.
Anglicanism:
It's true, shit does happen -- but only to Lutherans.
Quakers:
Let us not fight over this shit.
Catholicism:
If shit happens, you deserved it.
You were born shit, you are shit, and you will die shit.
Charismatic Catholicism:
Shit is happening because you deserve it, but we love you anyway.
Judaism:
Why does shit always happen just before closing the deal?
Conservative Judaism:
Why does shit always happen to US?
Reform Judaism:
Got any laxatives?
Shit happens to whom it may concern.
Orthodox Judaism:
So shit happens, already!
Islam:
We don't take any shit.
Sunni Islam:
If it happens to be shit, it's Allah's will and you'd better submit!
Shiite happens.
Shi'ite Islam:
WE WILL DESTROY YOUR SHIT!
If shit happens, take a hostage.
Nation of Islam:
Don't take no shit!
New Age:
That's not shit, it's feldspar.
A firm shit does not happen to me.
This isn't shit if I really believe it's chocolate.
I create my own shit.
If shit happens, honor it and share it.
Sheeeeeeeeeeit!
Were all part of the same shit.
For $300, we can help you get in touch with your inner shit.
Wicca:
If shit happened once, it will happen twice more.
The Goddess makes shit happen.
An it harm none, let shit happen.
Jehovah's Witnesses:
No shit happens until Armaggedon.
There is only a limited amount of good shit.
Knock Knock, "Shit Happens."
Here, we insist you take our shit.
Shit happens door to door.
Open the door and I'll show you what shit is.
Good Morning, I have some shit for you to read.
Secular Humanism:
Shit evolves.
Darwinism:
Survival of the shittiest.
This shit was once food.
Creationism:
... And the Lord said "Let there be shit" ... and there came piles of it. After six days of this shit, He rested.
Christian Science:
When shit happens, don't call a doctor--pray.
Shit doesn't happen and I am not up to my eyeballs in it.
Our shit will take care of itself.
Shit happens in your mind.
Atheism:
I don't believe this shit!
Shit doesn't happen. Shit is dead.
No shit!
It looks and smells like shit, so I'm damned if I'm going to taste it.
Religion from an Atheist's point of view:
I haven't smelt, seen, touched, or tasted it. But it's shit.
Agnosticism:
It looks and smells like shit, but I haven't tasted it, so I'm not sure whether its shit or not.
What is this shit?!
I don't know shit!
How can we KNOW if shit happens?
You can't prove any of this shit!
Rastafarianism:
Let's smoke this shit!
Hey, this is good shit, mon.
Mormonism:
If shit happens, shun it.
Let the shit multiply.
Excrement happens. (you can't say 'shit' in Utah)
Hey, there's more shit happening over here!
God sent us this shit.
Shit happens again & again & again ...
Energizer Bunny:
Shit happens and happens and happens and ...
Baptist:
You are shitting all wrong, and you'll be punished for it.
We'll wash the shit right off you.
Southern Baptist:
Shit will happen. Praise the lord!
Shiite Baptist:
Shit will happen, but only the way we say it will happen and if it doesn't happen we will make it happen because that's God's will and we know it...
Iraqi Baathist:
Oh shit!
Voodoo:
Shit doesn't just happen -- somebody dumped it on you.
Let's stick some pins in this shit!
This shit's gonna get you!
Televangelism:
Your tax-deductible donation could make this shit stop happening...
Congregationalism:
Shit that happens to one person is just as good as shit that happens to another.
Unitarianism:
Shit that happens to one person is just as bad as shit that happens to another.
What is this Shit?
We affirm the right for shit to happen.
Go ahead, shit anywhere you want.
It's not the shit that matters. It's the process.
Come let us reason together about this shit.
Orthodox:
St. Sergius found his faith in deep shit.
Greek Orthodox:
Shit happens, usually in threes.
EST:
I am at cause that shit will not happen.
You're responsible for all the shit that happens.
Fundamentalism:
There's no shit in the Bible.
If shit happens, you will go to hell, unless you are born again. (Amen!)
Shit happens, but don't publish it.
Twelve Step:
Shit happens one day at a time.
Amish:
Shit is good for the soil.
This modern shit is worthless.
Native Americans:
Shit is sacred when it happens.
Shintoism:
You inherit the shit of your ancestors.
Sushi happens.
Moonies:
Only happy shit really happens.
Stoicism:
This shit happening is good for me.
Zoroastrianism:
Shit happens half the time.
Christianity stole half its shit from us.
Bahaism:
Why do you keep shitting on us?
Shit happens universally.
Mysticism:
This is really weird shit.
Paganism:
Shit happens for a variety of reasons.
Rajhneesh:
Give us your shit and put on this orange shit.
Rosicrucianism:
What is this AMORC shit?
Satanism:
We hope bad shit happens to all of you.
We will make your shit happen.
SNEPPAH TIHS.
Witchcraft:
Mix this shit together and it will happen!
Scientology:
All this happens to be shit.
If you leave us, bad shit will happen to you.
This shit happened before, but we can clean it up if you pay us enough.
Feminism:
This shit happened before, and WE won't clean it up!
Shamanism:
Whoaa...Holy Shit!
Sikhism:
Leave our shit alone.
Moilanenism:
Smells like shit of finnish fish.
Sureshism:
You are all pieces of shit.
Lubavitcher Hassidism:
Blessed are they upon whom He sends His most holy Shit to happen.
Mithraism:
Bull shit happens.
Branch Davidianism:
May shit happen to the FBI!
If shit happens, have a BIG barbecue...
David thinks he's hot shit.
Jesuitism:
If shit happens and nobody hears it, did it really make a sound?
Divorcism:
She's full of shit!
He's fooling around with some worthless piece of shit.
Creation Science:
Shit has only been happening since October 23rd 4004 B.C.
Discordianism:
Shit makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful.
Kibology:
What's shit, and where can I get some?
Spam:
Spam happens.
SubGenius:
Shit has happened. For $20 "BoB" will sell you a way to MAKE MONEY FROM IT.
Dianetics:
"Why does shit happen?" (p. 157)
