Christians unfairly judged by God

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 3, 2003, 5:48 pm

Why does God make it immoral for you people to do pleasurable things, live a happy life, and be yourself?

God must love me more than he loves you.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » July 3, 2003, 5:57 pm

Replace "God" with "the church" and you come close to the root of the problem.

Cotto · Post by **Cotto** » July 3, 2003, 6:01 pm

Fallanthas wrote:Replace "God" with "the church" and you come close to the root of the problem.

Agreed!
Thats the primary reason I dont believe in The Bible and Religion thing (not about believe in god, but do this, do that, kill him, shun her etc)
Primaryily because the bible is a book written/copied by man. If the church saw soemthing they didnt like it could be..forgotten

noel · Post by **noel** » July 3, 2003, 6:02 pm

Haha much

for Xyun.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 3, 2003, 7:15 pm

How do you define pleasure?

I think the greatest surge of joy you'll ever have happens when you allow God to optimize your life for his purpose.

Assume for the moment that God created everything. We may paint a portrait, craft a chair, or create a virtual world like EQ, but God, so much larger than us dreamed up our reality. Inside that brilliant dream he crafted each of us. Each of us, if we'd allow it, have a "best path" through life. Looking to God for guidance down that "best path" will ultimately yield the greatest peace of mind, and joy springing from the root of souls.

I value these things greater than the fleeting moments of sensual pleasure. Anything carnal we do doesn't last. Yet we've got the opportunity to latch on to someone who is rock solid and constant. God doesn't fade.

Along this path God asks that we trust him when he guides us to do things. Sometimes that means turning away from a pleasurable moment. Sometimes that means learning from God by going through cancer.

I tell you, when I've took my stubborn selfishness out of a choice in life and acted as God instructs, I get a surge of joy fills me up in a way that nothing else can.

It all depends on how you define pleasure.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » July 3, 2003, 7:31 pm

No xyun, becouse when you die, your gonna be up in the clouds and shit, and there will be a huge ass gate, and then this one dude with blue eyes brown hair and a toga is gonna hold a big list in front of you, then pull a lever, and you go to hell! Becouse priests are horney basterds who cant get laid and they dont want anyone else too, so then they send you to hell, that head your gettin is nothin but satans fire I tell you, snap outa your evil ways!
Honestly, i dont see how anyone can be a part of an established religion like christianity or islam without having such a large sence of insecurity and fear that they consistantly tell themselfs if you follow there book you will get the reward afterwards...but if some people are able to see it in a different perspective thats good for them

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » July 5, 2003, 6:48 am

Adex_Xeda wrote:I think the greatest surge of joy you'll ever have happens when you allow God to optimize your life for his purpose.

I just let out the biggest laugh I've had in weeks when I read this. Thanks Adex

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » July 5, 2003, 8:28 pm

I again applaud Adex for being strong enough to state his belifs even though he knows most others won't agree.

While I share some of those beliefs I would like to paint a more secular picture for others to understand.

Lets take for instance a relationship between two people who are married. They have vowed, often before God, to be faithful to one another. Now by taking that vow, whether in front of God or not, they are saying to one another that they will forgo some "things" that would obviously bring them pleasure. One person is out of town, they meet someone else they will most likely never see again, one thing leads to another and they are presented with an opportiunity for unbridled passion and pleasure. The other person will never know... but they pass on the chance.

Why? For someone who is a Christian, or a number of other religions as well, they could be saying no because to them that is what their God commands them to do. However lets look at it without religion. As a human being the person has made a vow to another human being to be faithful. For a person of moral character, religious or not, the breaking of that vow will cause them strife, stress and psychological pain. Now someone can say, well it wouldn't bother me and I'm a moral person... well are you? If you say you are then your word should mean something. Honesty should mean something. If all of us are this planet are to live together and someday get along, truthfulness is of the utmost importantce.

For there ever to be a lasting peace people must choose to go beyond their animal instinctual desires, whatever they may be. The Bible, particully the New Testament, ask it's followers to do this. As does Scientology, Maslow and Roger's versions of Humanism and many Eastern Religions.

While Adex and others may choose not to follow every whimsical desire because of one reason, other choose the exact same path for another. The end result of both is a better society for all of us to live in.

Don't get me wrong though, religious or not we are all going to fail from time to time. I also know of no where in the Bible that is says pleasure simply for pleasure's sake is wrong. In the bounds of marriage my understanding is pretty much everything is a go

Ah but some of you will say... The Churce says.... My point is I could give a rats ass what the "Church" says most of the time. I choose to read on my own and pray for understanding. Just because someone has believed something for 2000 years dosen't mean it was the correct thought when they came up with it... it just means people got use to the idea and followed along as many humans tend to do anyway.

Oh the person who didn't cheat... they lived happily ever after

It wasn't that "God" didn't want them to have "fun." It was just the right thing to do...IMHO of course.

Cheers!
Marb

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » July 5, 2003, 11:59 pm

Xzion wrote:Honestly, i dont see how anyone can be a part of an established religion like christianity or islam without having such a large sence of insecurity and fear that they consistantly tell themselfs if you follow there book you will get the reward afterwards...but if some people are able to see it in a different perspective thats good for them

Why do you follow the laws of your country? Is it insecurity? Fear of the legislative reprocutions? Small world. Your religion is politics, same difference. You get a 401k, social security, some type of retirement plan for following the rules, Christians get that, as well as hopefully heaven. Your god is tangible, mine is ethereal.

*prepares for the inevitable flame the Christian thread that this is supposed to bait us into*

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » July 6, 2003, 1:23 am

Personally Xzion I don't know exactly how, where or when the final judgement will take place. I do believe it will be quite some time from now... at least 1000 years away. But when that time comes I pray that my name is on that list. The lake of Fire won't snap anyone out of anything though... it will be too late then

I'm not insecure and I'm not fearful but as you propose I will probably agree there are many who are. Years ago Xyun and I use to email each other arguing some of these same topics or waste away the hours waiting for Fear to repop

I will give that I think in some ways the Church has been very unfair to the general population and moreso to Christ's message. I see His message as one of freedom and liberation if from nothing else, from fear. To quote Herbert "Fear is the mind killer."

I believe we are to live our lives the best we can, treat others the best we can and try to do better when we make mistakes. As I said in another post that is the right message not just for Religion but for a happy healthy society. What I think is great is that the message has been around for 2000 years (much of that of course the average person couldn't read it though) and it's just in the last 100 our scientist and psychologist are beginning to figure it out. I think it shows that just as Children need to listen to adults, and sometimes question, we should listen to God as well. Without mans corruption of the message it looks like He knew what he was talking about all along... IMHO.

Cheers!
Marb

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 6, 2003, 3:55 am

Why do you follow the laws of your country? Is it insecurity? Fear of the legislative reprocutions? Small world. Your religion is politics, same difference. You get a 401k, social security, some type of retirement plan for following the rules, Christians get that, as well as hopefully heaven. Your god is tangible, mine is ethereal.

This is the most ridiculous piece of horse shit I have ever come across. I could've used a hundred better comparisons to religion than politics, taking a shit comes to mind. My religion is politics?? WTF? I don't go to the courthouse every sunday and worship the constitution, and I sure as fuck don't obey or disobey laws because of fear. I obey the ones I agree with and disobey the ones I don't agree with. Fear is something I dealt with as a little kid and is now a distant memory.

And as for the retirement plan, those who forego the tangible, wonderful, miraculous life they've been given for something untangible, questionable, and down right mythical deserve the fucking misery they live in.

On a tangent here... I also have a book I live by. Here are some passages from it, which to me is the best poem ever written--

The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

Verse XII:
"How sweet is mortal sovranty" think some
Others-- "How blest the paradise to come"
Ah, take the cash in hand and waive the rest
Oh the brave music of a distant drum

Verse XXXVII
Ah fill the cup; what boots it to repeat
How time is slipping underneath our feet
Unborn tomorrow and dead yesterday
Why fret about them if today be sweet?

Verse XXXVIII
One moment in annihilation's waste
One moment of the well of life to taste
The stars are setting and the caravan
Starts for the dawn of nothing-- oh, make haste

Verse XLVII
And if the wine you drink, the lip you press
End in the nothing all things end in - Yes!
Then fancy while thou art,
Thou art but what thou shalt be: Nothing
Thou shalt not be less

Verse XLIX
Tis all a chequer-board of nights and days
Where destiny with men for pieces plays
Hither and thither moves and mates and slays,
And one by one back in the closet lays

Verse LVI
And this I know, whether the one true light
Kindle to love or wrath consume me quite
One glimpse of it within the tavern caught
Better than in the temple lost outright

Verse LXX
Indeed, indeed, repentance oft before I swore
But was I sober when I swore?
And then and then came spring, and rose in hand
My thread-bare penitence apieces tore

Verse LXXIII
Ah, Love, could thou and I with fate conspire
To grasp this sorry scheme of things entire
Would not we shatter it to bits and then
Re-mould it nearer to the heart's desire?

---------------------

Anyway, thought I'd throw a tangent out there. If you like these passages I urge you to check it out, there is obviously a whole lot more. The best translations are by an Englishman named John Fitzgerald.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » July 6, 2003, 10:23 am

Why does God make it immoral for you people to do pleasurable things, live a happy life, and be yourself?

He doesn't. I can be myself without philandering, thieving, lieing killing or whatnot. I can do a number of pleasurable things, such as sex with my wife, play EQ, play the PS2, watch R rated movies, or go out and have a drink with some friends. My religion isn't hindering me from doing things that I wouldn't do anyways. I have a mostly happy life, and my choice in religion won't change that.

I have a set of morals that I follow. Most of them, yes, are rooted in Christianic beliefes, but like I stated, these are things that I would likely do regardless of my religious status. I try to be what I consider a "good" person - living up to my religion's standards is a good way to attempt that.

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » July 6, 2003, 3:24 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:I tell you, when I've took my stubborn selfishness out of a choice in life and acted as God instructs, I get a surge of joy fills me up in a way that nothing else can.

Almost like, say, the effects of an opiate?

Having said that, I'm an agnostic living in a community dominated by very homogeneous Christianity. It's a great place to live. People largely govern themselves - whether it be from guilt or shame - and as a result, the crime rate is low, people are generally polite to each other, and hell, there is even a low incidence of littering. I leave my front door open at night, and I live right downtown in a city of one million.

I have a clear view of why religion was adopted for the pacification of the multitudes by the leaders of the first states. It's great!

Mp

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » July 6, 2003, 4:46 pm

Xyun wrote:
Why do you follow the laws of your country? Is it insecurity? Fear of the legislative reprocutions? Small world. Your religion is politics, same difference. You get a 401k, social security, some type of retirement plan for following the rules, Christians get that, as well as hopefully heaven. Your god is tangible, mine is ethereal.
This is the most ridiculous piece of horse shit I have ever come across.

Was meant to be equally rediculous as the person I was responding to. Glad you caught it.

Kudo · Post by **Kudo** » July 6, 2003, 9:26 pm

That little voice is NOT god, damn you guys.
It's the little leprecauns telling you to do those things.

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » July 7, 2003, 12:41 am

so those poor people on the street that eat rotten food are put there because god sees it fit that they are infested with lice and have improper food?

remember ... god works in strange ways !

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » July 7, 2003, 1:24 am

Well, I am agnostic. I grew up Catholic, and appreciate what religion has to offer, despite my own beliefs. Hey, we are all different... I have friends that go to church every Sunday, and friends who believe none of it.

As for me, I don't believe. However, I see folks who get joy and enlightenment from going to church or burning incense near a Budda...and I think that is pretty cool. Better to be happy with life than to be in despair, eh?

BTW - I need recruits to spread the great word of Our Lord, Canelek.. here, have a newsletter.

EDIT: Hey Marbus, I grew up in Little Rock. Miss it bigtime!

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » July 7, 2003, 1:39 am

so those poor people on the street that eat rotten food are put there because god sees it fit that they are infested with lice and have improper food?

But who's fault is that? Theirs - or the people that have the power / money / whatever to helpt hem out? I try and help at every oppertunity, but I live in an area where we don't have this kind of problem. That said, I have always doanted whatever I could whenever I could.. it may not be perfect, but hopefully it helps someone.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » July 7, 2003, 9:13 am

Those people starve because of people like Xyun who has clearly stated that his God is money. His church is the bank. He worships not once a week, but every day. The churches, whether you like them or not, reach out continually and make efforts to feed hungry people. Just because you don't like them, don't you dare say they have anything to do with someone being poor. You and YOUR materialistic ways contribute far more to that person going hungry tonight than the church. When was the last time you gathered up food and went to a less fortunate person to deliver it? I am guessing never. You can shut the fuck up and go do something yourself instead of blaming God.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 7, 2003, 9:16 am

Actually my God is sex and I worship pussy, but thanks for playing.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » July 7, 2003, 9:17 am

Adex_Xeda wrote:I think the greatest surge of joy you'll ever have happens when you allow God to optimize your life for his purpose.

Jumping in late on this one but

I'm pretty sure you're wrong. I'm pretty sure most people would say their greatest surge of joy will be watching their children being born. I know that's what it will be for me.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » July 7, 2003, 9:34 am

Let me just make my position clear at the outset with a F God, or whichever name you give to the imaginary friend you choose to deify.

Many organisations are a force for good in this world and certainly organised christianity has done it's fair share and probably more. /clap and pat yourselves on the back.
However I have seen and heard (first hand) people dismiss suffering and destruction in this world with the "moves in mysterious ways" bullshit and it lights a furnace of fury within me. Similarly I've seen people accept "their lot in life" because they have their religion and will get their rewards in the afterlife.
Well fuck that and the horse it rode in on.

I believe in life before death and I cannot stand to hear anyone recommend you accept short shrift in this life for some ineffable bullshit "reward" you will supposedly receive when the lights go out.

I also don't believe in fate, superstition, destiny, the deserving poor or any other creed that infers you should eat shit with a smile on your face because "things will be ok in the end cos I have religion". My own personal definition of heaven and hell is the difference between reaching the end of your life without regrets and reaching it with them.

Also anyone subscribing to Kilmoll's typically stunted "with us or against us", "if you don't

baby jesus you must

teh evil cash" (I assume he ran off to trash the moneylenders tables at the temple) bullshit can go fuck themselves. Christians DO NOT have the monopoly on compassion, humanity, humility, manners and consideration. Though the smug cunts would like to have you believe that of course.

There's your rant. Religion fucking sucks and the sooner we evolve past our need for pathetic crutches of superstition the better for all mankind.

Thanks for listening.

Burke · Post by **Burke** » July 7, 2003, 10:10 am

If we all just listened to Saints Bill S. Preston and Ted "Theodore" Logan, the world would be a better place:

"Be Excellent to Each Other!"

There. Done. No more rules or guidelines needed. Take the world's religions and chuck 'em. That's the only tenet we need to follow to ensure a good life for all.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 7, 2003, 11:06 am

Tanc you remind me of myself a few years back.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » July 7, 2003, 11:15 am

So what changed? I'm genuinely interested even if the question sounds flippant.

I've known a couple of born-again christians and there was a definite "trigger moment" for them so I'm curious if you had one too.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 7, 2003, 12:02 pm

I was an anger junky. I'd get fed up and go on a crusade against whatever the perceived offences were in my life. I'd get a energy boost off of the anger I built up. Well over time despite my good intentions I ended up scorching my friends, and I developed into a rather reckless and hostile person. I was relying on myself to bulldoze my way through life. The fruits of which were very lacking.

I explained my situation one night to a close friend. I asked why she seemed so at peace with life. She was always steady and unmoved by negative things that hit her. She seemed to have things figured out.

Well she mentioned how she let Jesus take care of her failings and she let God play a part in her life. She suggested that I bet on God and give him a chance with something small.

I figured what the heck. I grew up with the christain stories and I knew what to do. For the first time I didn't just go through the motions but I actually prayed and requested Jesus take the punishment for my offences towards God. That cleared the way for me to be in clear communication with God. I started trusting God with little things in my life, and I be damned if by following God's instructions (reading the bible for advice, and listening to God's whisper in my ear) didn't make those little things better.

Over time I trusted God with the bigger things and he's never failed me.

Let me repeat that, unlike anyone else in my life, God never fails me.

Best of all like I've said before he filled me up. I didn't need the adreniline rush from anger to feel motivated. He saturated me with something that I can best describe as joy. Pure joy that just wells up from the marrow and surges outward. It's a kind of unrelenting optimism, or confidence. A feeling that no matter how screwed up life gets, I'm never alone and I'm never going to face a challenge anymore that I can't beat by depending on him.

Its like Irish Spring for the heart. It shines you clean, through and through.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 7, 2003, 12:19 pm

Let me give you an example of how I trusted God with something and he helped me out.

I don't make strong enough grades to get scholarships to college. I depend on work to pay the bills. Well one summer the company I'd been interning with in San Jose bit the dust with the rest of the dot-com bust a few years back. I had tried like mad to set up interviews and faced the same story, "we can't afford to hire an intern right now". Well after 4 months of looking that spring. On the way home after the spring semester it dawned on me that I might pray about the situation. I did and I be damned if as I was unloading my pickup at the house, 30 minutes after arriving home for the summer break, my mother runs out of the house saying that someone's cousin's aunt's friend's boss needed a guy like me to help them with some telecom research.

I mean I looked for 4 months. It dawns on me to pray, and then boom 3 hours later I get a job offer out of the blue. Luck? maybe.

Another example, this is one I pray about all the time. I get frustrated easily, when I get frustrated I boil up anger and get into this state of frenzied pushyness. I slip up and say things that could get me fired, I hurt my friends at times verbally. Nowadays whenever I feel this anger boiling up, I pray about it, and I be damned if its like someone takes the fizz out of my coke and the anger dies off. In replacement I get sense of quiet peace. All because I ask God to help me with my temper. Luck? maybe.

Another example, I got kicked out of college due to bad grades. I was bummed out and didn't want to flip burgers for the rest of my life, but my requests to get back in the college door were rejected. I prayed about it. I asked that if it was God's will for me to finish college that he might help me fix whatever my problems are with self discipline and provide an opportunity to get back in. Well, at my job the next week there happened to be a researcher who was having trouble. I got put on his project and did some work for him. It went wonderfully and I got a patent pending from the product we developed. Well he was so pleased with the work we did together that he pulled some strings to get me back into school in his department. I just happend to bump into the guy to start that sequence. Luck? maybe.

I got a new roommate during that time. The new roommate just happened to share the same major that the researcher helped me enroll with. This new roommate had great study habits. It was this roommate's help that allowed me to drop my EQ addiction and get back to finishing my degree. I just happened to bump into this guy as I was filling out paperwork for reenrollment. Luck? maybe, but I'm more inclined to belive that it's God.

These are just little things, that I trust God with, and he delivers. If ever get cancer, guess who I'm leaning on to help me through it? I'm leaning on someone with a proven track record.

God, I gotta love him.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 7, 2003, 12:27 pm

Sorry for all the verbage, but just one more thing.

What I previously mentioned pales in comparison to the things you experience when you feel God tugging you to help someone else out.
If you follow through and allow God to use you, you get sense of meaning and purpose that's undescribeable.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » July 7, 2003, 12:30 pm

Xyun wrote:Actually my God is sex and I worship pussy, but thanks for playing.

See Xyun you do have something in common with Adex.

He has never seen his God either.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » July 7, 2003, 12:50 pm

That's cool Adex I'm glad it works for you though I'd call it some luck and a lot of confirmation bias rather than god

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 7, 2003, 1:21 pm

Well Tanc,

Describe a warm summer breeze using a ruler. A ruler can give you an idea, but its far from the describing the experience. It's a poor tool for the job.

Likewise my typed words fall short of describing my experience with God.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » July 7, 2003, 2:24 pm

Atokal wrote:
Xyun wrote:Actually my God is sex and I worship pussy, but thanks for playing.
See Xyun you do have something in common with Adex.

He has never seen his God either.

Hahahahaha, very good Atokal! Zing!

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » July 7, 2003, 2:47 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Well Tanc,

Describe a warm summer breeze using a ruler. A ruler can give you an idea, but its far from the describing the experience. It's a poor tool for the job.

Likewise my typed words fall short of describing my experience with God.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 7, 2003, 2:50 pm

Which leads one to ask does Xyun's god move in mysterious ways?

I know that in general the person in charge of Xyun's god can be hard to decipher when you ask them where they want to go for dinner.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » July 7, 2003, 4:35 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Which leads one to ask does Xyun's god move in mysterious ways?

Yes I am sure his god will always be a mystery and move in ways he will never understand. Xyun, you once denounced people for having shallow views on serious topics. If your views were a puddle of water I dare say there would be enough liquid to quench the thirst of an ant.

Adex I must commend you on your views and the way in which you present them. My Grandfather was a preacher, I was raised going to Church every Sunday and I have many relatives etc that are in ministry of one sort or another. I have my beliefs but do not walk the walk. I admire your stand my friend.

Cheers

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » July 8, 2003, 9:50 am

Its just my belief that if there is a god and an afterlife ETC, NOONE has and ever will deserve to spend an "eternal damnation of torture in hell", becouse of there ignorance and manner that they were brought up and managed to screw up in the eyes of a christian they deserve to spend an eternal damnation, fuck that up the ass

My problem with very established-closed minded christians is they see "god" as a tyrant that judges them, and they also see him as a power hungry egomaniac, if "god"'s job is only to judge people and desire all to bow down to him and embrace his power blindly then all i can say to that is, fuck you, i dont want anything to do with you

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » July 8, 2003, 9:55 am

Religion is a learned behavior. If you were born in China, you would be a Buddist. If you were born in Iraq, you would worship Allah. You were born in the US, chances are, you are a Christian.

Your beliefs, interpretations of events around you, and the interpretations of your feelings towards a diety are all learned and directed by various influences in your life. If you know and understand that concept, I don't understand how someone can be religious.

The real question isn't "Why are you a Christian?". A more difficult question would be "Why am I not a Christian?". The first question is easily answered and rather obvious, while the second would be unique and personal for virtually every non-Christian. Religious people tend to congregate and feed off of each other's experiances, while for the most part, Athiets/agnostics are much more private in their decision.

Anyway, it's grounds for a term paper and I will not get into it any further here. I'm sure you get the idea.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » July 8, 2003, 10:55 am

thats not necissarily (godamn i cant spell) true at all, i was more or less raised a christian, and i am anything but christian, i am agnostic with a lot of buhdist ideas and philosophys i somewhat believe in, yet open minded to all ideas, in order to find out your religion and or what you are, you have to question that on which you have been brought up on, and after a while, you can choose to believe what you want to, most people, never question there religion on which they were brought up on and as a result theys upport it blindly, yet i do have respect for people who converted to a new religion or choose there religion based on wht they reallu believe in

I believe that what people consider to be "a higher power" is not necissarily a higher power, but a binding lifeforce which holds all life togeather, and that as a lifeform that we are, that we were never created by a god or will die and be judged by one, yet that life has always exsisted as have we in one form or another, and always will exsist in one form or another, and that there is no beginning or end to life, matter, etc
...but for me, things like that are just "ideas", i have no "faith"....

what pisses me off more then anything is when i hear people say "god says this, god wants that, god thinks i should this,god thinks this is wrong"

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » July 8, 2003, 10:58 am

Don't take this the wrong way, Adex, as I'm glad your life isn't hypocritical to your words but, former drug addicts. alcoholics, and felons speak of God as their catharsis in much the same way. But you have found your own interpretation of God and find strength in it which is great. However, you should know that each person's interpretation of God is different and that's not just as a result of differing religions but in the same one as well. Forcing your interpretation of God onto someone else is where the problems arise (not saying you do, but just in general). When someone says that God, as an example, thinks homosexuality or gay marriage is wrong, you're forcing your own interpretation of God onto someone else.

Deward · Post by **Deward** » July 8, 2003, 11:07 am

I am agnostic. I was raised very strict mormon and tried nearly every other religion growing up and gave up on it when it came down to one thing...God = Money. Organized religions only believe in the $$$.

After becoming more educated and actually studying the bible as a history text, I can see that it was not the word of some god but a history and moral text of the human race. Some of the stories in the old testament are quite evil and were all done in god's name. Read Genesis. God condoned the murder of thousands of non-jews because one of them kidnapped and raped a jewish girl. I think we know why the church didn't want it's followers to become educated. The people would see what kind of bullshit it was for themselves. Hence why man wrote the new testament in it's nice and shiny format.

Some people need a crutch to blame their life's problems on. The church is glad to be the crutch if you pay them 10%.

Deward

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » July 8, 2003, 11:27 am

i was more or less raised a christian, and i am anything but christian, i am agnostic with a lot of buhdist ideas and philosophys i somewhat believe in, yet open minded to all ideas, in order to find out your religion and or what you are, you have to question that on which you have been brought up on, and after a while, you can choose to believe what you want to, most people, never question there religion on which they were brought up on and as a result theys upport it blindly, yet i do have respect for people who converted to a new religion or choose there religion based on wht they reallu believe in

You can say I am wrong, but my prior description is 100% accurate. We make choices that reflect our lifestyle, or the lifestyle we would like to live, based upon where we see ourselves fitting into society. Religion is constantly evolving in order to keep up with society. Religion is highly influenced by social norms, not the other way around. That's the main reason there are a myriad of Christian churches here in the states. There is a subtle/different underlying philosphy to each one.

My church allows me to smoke and drink. My church thinks gays are fine. My church dosen't frown upon gambling. ect. ect. (of course, there are the Puritans as well)

There is a church/religion for every single lifestyle imaginable because there has to be. Yes, people often mature, become independent, and change their religon or adapt a religon that conforms to their chosen lifestyle. Your entire description of "finding yourself" and what-not, while sounding romantic and magical, is nothing more than finding things that conform to you instead of you confroming to them. It definately involves a form of independence, but it is still very much psychology 101.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 8, 2003, 11:28 am

No no Chidoro, I'm a hypocrite more often that I'm not. I try to minimize hypocracy in my life but it pops up from time to time.

I know that until God hits you up, it all sounds like a self delusion. It is when God chooses to reach out and initiate contact that you, that makes it very real. You feel him. You can can sense him when he talks to you. Outside that experience, it is difficult to get past the idea that the whole thing is a personal construct.

If someone asks my stance on homosexuality I'm going to tell them. I don't see that as forcing myself on them. If I have to vote in support of a candidate or referendum, how am I to know if the guy running for office is a good guy if I not allowed to compare his moral code to mine?

We all vote our moral codes. In the end, a candidate that represents a commonality of all our individual moral codes tends to get elected.

That's group consensus in action.

Deward,

I accept that you saw dark or selfish things from the Mormon church early in life.

I ask that you consider that there are many Christain organizations out there that do their best to be honest and fair.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 8, 2003, 11:31 am

Fairweather I'd add that my personal experiences with God are independant of any church I've attended.

Interacting with God is personal.

Like-minded people getting together to help each other out and those around them is a church.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » July 8, 2003, 11:51 am

No no Chidoro, I'm a hypocrite more often that I'm not

Unfortunately, that is the downfall of most religions. For example, every single Christian is a hypocrite. The daily life of a Christian is nothing but hypocracy as long as you are not trying to be more like Christ. Would Christ work 9-5 Mon.-Fri., eat at McDonalds twice a week, and play EQ on the weekends? Fuck no. Christ would spend every waking momment helping others and improving the lives of those around him while preaching the word of god. Any reason that you express as to why you do not do that is an excuse. Every single reason.

But that lifestyle does not conform to your personal view of how you fit in society. You, as a person, decide which parts of your religion you value more than others. In a sense, you make your own religion, or at the very least, modify your religion to confrom to, or justify your lifestyle.

I'll be honest and say that if I truely believed the Bible to be the word of God, our creator, I would lock myself in a room and worship/praise him 24 fucking 7 with little or no contact with the outside world. I would give up all my mortal belongings and live a spartan lifestyle consisting of a rug to sleep on and possibly some bread/water. I would be scared. I would dedicate every waking momment to him, assuring my place beside him in heaven.

The fact is, most people are very nonchalant about their lifestyle and how it conforms to the typical hardline beliefs that their chosen religion preaches.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 8, 2003, 12:05 pm

Fairweather, did you know the Apostle Paul was a tentmaker?

You know most Christains belive Paul to be a good role model.

He alone of all the 12 had the greatest impact on the early church.

Would it surprise you to know that he didn't go around all the time preaching?

He'd move from town to town as a tentmaker. He'd labor by day and by night or special occasion he'd preach.

Sometimes God's instructions to a person is to go work and provide for your family.

Sometimes by donation the hard work of christains finance the professional missionaries.

Providing for yourself and others is an honorable thing, and its solidly biblical.

It becomes wrong when you put your work or personal gain infront of doing God wants you to do.

But many times it is God's desire that you work.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » July 8, 2003, 12:21 pm

I don't want to derail this so I will just say that when someone w/ a differing moral authority dictates what can be said or done to others that may or may not follow a similar code, someone else's morals are directly effecting someone that doesn't believe in it. Since morals tend to be dictated by religion, it's forcing religious beliefs onto someone that doesn't agree with them. Dictating what people can do for the safety of all is one thing, dictating what they can do because it's, what boils down to, a religious belief, is another.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » July 8, 2003, 12:26 pm

Interacting with God is personal.

Of course it is. There is no other way for a person to communicate with an imaginary being. God does not communicate with, say, a room full of strangers at once because it is not possible. Each one of those people would have a different deffinition of God and how he would theoretically communicate with them.

Ever heard the old saying, "If you talk to God, you're normal. If God talks back, you're crazy."? It's true.

Furthermore, are you under the impression that you are the only person throughout the history of mankind that is having these deep, personal interactions with your chosen diety? Do you think Og didn't have these same feelings back in the days of the caveman when he believed he was in direct commune with the Sun God? Do you think a monk who has fasted and prayed for 10 years is not feeling that sort of connection with his surroundings? That claim is as ludicrous as it is egotistical.

How do you explain/justify the fact that a plethora self-proclaimed relgious people claim to have had your exact personal experiance, although not with the Christian god? Dosen't that make you think or wonder at all? Dosen't logic start to enter the picture at any point?

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 8, 2003, 12:33 pm

I think we can agree on your last statement Chidoro.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 8, 2003, 1:06 pm

Hehe, well Fairweather by your definintion I am a little bit crazy.

You know I spoke poorly. A person's relationship with god is on the personal level. I was incorrect in saying that God doesn't communicate with a group of people. I have seen God speak to a whole group by allowing a miracle that we could all witness.

When you're the Creator you don't have to speak exclusively though a booming voice and a firey bush. Sometimes God speaks by events in life. Should I go to the Atlanta today? Suddenly your flight gets canceled and you go back home to find that your wife really needed you that day.

God speaks to groups, and God sometimes speaks through tweaking your environment. It is quite within his power.

I'm sure more than me interact with God.

I can't speak to what Og experienced because I never met Og, but what I can say is that my experiencing God is potent enough that my life has been rebuilt and invigored by it. And I was a hard sell.

How do I explain the plethora of self-proclaimed relgious people who express similar experiences? Well that's hard to say, I don't know what everyone else is proclaiming.

I do know that if what they say isn't inline with the personality of God displayed in the bible, I doubt who they're talking to is God.

You see if you buy into the God thing you buy into the devil thing. What better way for the devil to keep people from God than to put up a whole bunch of relgious flak and distractive paths that makes God part of the crowd to the unconnected searcher?

If anything, all of the flak suggests the devil's existance.

I can carry this reasoning further if your interested, but I'll stop in my assumption that you'd rather not hear it right now.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » July 8, 2003, 1:38 pm

Well, the conversation cannot progress until you acknowledge that other people in the world experiance the exact same things you claim, although they are through an entirely different set of religious beliefs. That is the crux.

As far as not claiming not to know what other people are proclaiming, I am not surprised at all. Most Christians here in the US know very little about other religions or cultures. Trust me, you would be amazed at how much every religion on the planet, both past and present, have in common. That also includes the people and their justifications.

You don't even want to get me started on the devil and "evil". That's a whole other topic, and one that I could post volumes based on my opinions.

I said in the other thread that I tend to not discuss religion with people when God or faith are their fall-back. It's the ultimate trump card that no rational conversation can hope to penetrate. A conversation such as this has to be rooted in reality. For example, you say that the devil is the reason for the vast amount of "religious flak and disruptive paths". That line of reasoning makes me struggle to contain laughter. I mean, it couldn't possibly have anything to do with thousands upon thousands of years of history and social evolution, right? Of course not. It's borderline satanic to even think such a thing.