NBA Finals Game 2

noel · Post by **noel** » June 9, 2004, 1:19 am

Incredible game. I've said since 'Sheed arrived in Detroit that they were far and away the best mathcup for any Western Conference team, but they were even better than I ever thought. This is shaping up to be one hell of a series.

Props to Shaq and Kobe for not picking up their sixth. That was an incredible comeback by the Lakers.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » June 9, 2004, 4:09 am

Lakers in 5.

i'm not a lakers fan either.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 9, 2004, 11:09 am

I am no Lakers fan.. faaaar from it.. and have been vocal with the fact that when you play the Lakers you play against the refs as well. Not so yesterday. The 5th foul on Shaq and the no-call on Kobe in particular were ridiculous.

That said.. if Kobe learned to hold back SOME of his shots (the quick 3 towards the end of the game was bad and a few others) he would, imho, pass up Michael Jordan.

Post by **Sylvus** » June 9, 2004, 12:41 pm

Spang wrote:Lakers in 5.

i'm not a lakers fan either.

There is no way that the lakers are going to sweep the Pistons the next three games at home.

If anything, I'd be scared if I were a Lakers fan. We totally took them the first game, and they had to rely on some pretty miraculous happenings (including shaq making a free throw) just to send game 2 into overtime. Now they are coming into Detroit where our crowd has been a big factor throughout the playoffs... Pistons in 6!

noel · Post by **noel** » June 9, 2004, 12:46 pm

Sylvus wrote:
Spang wrote:Lakers in 5.

i'm not a lakers fan either.
There is no way that the lakers are going to sweep the Pistons the next three games at home.

If anything, I'd be scared if I were a Lakers fan. We totally took them the first game, and they had to rely on some pretty miraculous happenings (including shaq making a free throw) just to send game 2 into overtime. Now they are coming into Detroit where our crowd has been a big factor throughout the playoffs... Pistons in 6!

This is certainly the attitude of most people in LA. The current goal, based on the morning talkshow, is Lakers winning 1 in Detroit, and coming home to win the last two. The only way you can say, 'Lakers in 5' is if you didn't watch the last two games.

It also looks like the Lakers might lose Malone. ><

I do think the Lakers will win, but I think this is going to be one hell of a series.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 9, 2004, 12:49 pm

No way Lakers will win 3 in Detroit. I also say bench Peyton and Malone (first one plays horrible, second one is injured) and run the team old-style (aka last season heh).

I still believe Lakers will win.. but am not as certain as I used to be. And talking about crowds, damn the LA crowd sucks as when it comes to making noise etc.

xZiBiT · Post by **xZiBiT** » June 9, 2004, 1:11 pm

The lakers look old and tired (besides Kobe) and there is no way that the Piston's are gonna sleep on Walton again.

And if you wanna talk no calls what about the foul they gave Ben Wallace on Shaq that pulled the game to 89-86. Lakers got OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS more calls than the Piston's did. i.e. Hamilton's tech (Gary Payton did the same exact thing to start the Third quarter when he picked up foul #3 and again on his fourth foul). the only difference in the calls was that the lakers made theirs (B.Wallace 2-8)

And whoever said lakers in 5 LMAO
I went to game 7 vs. the Nets and the palace was electric, much louder than any concert/sports event I have ever been to, lakers will be lucky to take 1 game, and the crowd does energize the pistons

noel · Post by **noel** » June 9, 2004, 1:19 pm

No home team in history has ever swept the middle 3 in a 2-3-2 series. Just FYI.

Edit: How the hell does Shaq look old and tired? Hate to break it to you, but when he's not in foul trouble, Shaq is dominating the low post.

xZiBiT · Post by **xZiBiT** » June 9, 2004, 5:08 pm

I never said they would take all three.

3 of shaq's fouls were from taking the play off and reaching, one was an offensive "flop" foul and one he almost took Ben Wallace's head off and then landed on top of him. I'm not refering to old/tired shaq in the low post, i'm talking defensive shaq that has been so big for the Lakers against Minnesota and Houston and S.Antonio

If he don't get out there and put effort into gaurding the high pick and roll, chauncy and rip will continue to score 20-25 points apiece each game and the Piston's will continue to have easy easy layups and dunks (whether or not they can make said layups is a different story) shaq isn't matching the Pistons energy, The need the dominant rebounding,shot-contesting defensive shaq in this series as much as they need the low post shaq, shaq can get his 36 point per game but i'm sure detroit will trade those 36 points for all the layup/dunks and the 50 points per game that their guards will be scoring

obviously he's the biggest and most dominant force on the inside and no one in the NBA can stop him down low

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 9, 2004, 5:46 pm

Malone and Payton are over the hill. Payton looks like he doesn't even want to be there.

With Kobe hitting the road and coming to play for the Suns or someone else next year, the Lakers have some serious depth issues to address if they want to be competitive next year. The Suns may even get Ben Wallace from the Pistons next year as well! The Suns have megabucks under the cap for next year and listening to interviews it appears they are confident that they have someone unofficially committed to play for them next year and maybe a second big name if the first does come.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 9, 2004, 6:49 pm

Winnow wrote:With Kobe hitting the road and coming to play for the Suns or someone else next year...

BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

Kobe is going nowhere.

Karae · Post by **Karae** » June 9, 2004, 6:51 pm

Kelshara wrote:That said.. if Kobe learned to hold back SOME of his shots (the quick 3 towards the end of the game was bad and a few others) he would, imho, pass up Michael Jordan.

No chance. While a case can be made that Kobe is at least as skilled as MJ, if not more, he is not a leader. The thing that seperates MJ from players like Kobe, T-Mac, Vince, etc. is that he made his teammates better. None of those players do.

Here's some assorted facts of why Jordan was better.

Defensive Player of the Year Awards: MJ: 1 Kobe: 0

All-defensive First Team selections: MJ: 9 Kobe: 3

MVP Awards: MJ: 5 Kobe: 0

Career PPG: MJ: 30.1 Kobe: 21.8

SPG: MJ: 2.35 Kobe: 1.47

APG: MJ: 5.3 Kobe: 4.3

RPG: MJ: 6.2 Kobe: 5.0

Total points scored: MJ: 32,292 Kobe: 12,215

and by far the most important statistic,

Titles won without Shaquille O'Neal: MJ: 6 Kobe: 0

Bottom line, Kobe isn't even the best players ON HIS OWN TEAM. No way can you compare him to the best player in the history of the game.

Kobe is inferior statistically, in every major statistic, doesn't have near the defensive skill Jordan had, and doesn't have any of the leadership abilities. Maybe that'll change over time, personally I doubt it, but until then the suggestion that Kobe is the player Michael was is preposterous.

Post by **Sylvus** » June 9, 2004, 6:52 pm

And I'm pretty sure you won't see Ben Wallace playing for the Suns anytime soon either.

Karae · Post by **Karae** » June 9, 2004, 7:04 pm

xZiBiT wrote:I never said they would take all three.

3 of shaq's fouls were from taking the play off and reaching, one was an offensive "flop" foul and one he almost took Ben Wallace's head off and then landed on top of him. I'm not refering to old/tired shaq in the low post, i'm talking defensive shaq that has been so big for the Lakers against Minnesota and Houston and S.Antonio

If he don't get out there and put effort into gaurding the high pick and roll, chauncy and rip will continue to score 20-25 points apiece each game and the Piston's will continue to have easy easy layups and dunks (whether or not they can make said layups is a different story) shaq isn't matching the Pistons energy, The need the dominant rebounding,shot-contesting defensive shaq in this series as much as they need the low post shaq, shaq can get his 36 point per game but i'm sure detroit will trade those 36 points for all the layup/dunks and the 50 points per game that their guards will be scoring

obviously he's the biggest and most dominant force on the inside and no one in the NBA can stop him down low

Other than sending him to the free throw line 14x the Lakers basically shut Billups down. LA can live with Rip scoring because Kobe is outscoring him. But, to this point, the Wallaces have been outscoring Karl and Gary. The Lakers need more from them, it's the #3 and #4 scorer where LA has been getting manhandled, they're winning #1 and #2 consistently. They're just lucky they had enough bench production from Rush, Walton, Fisher, and George to make up for Karl and Gary's lack. They're gonna need to continue to rely on their bench, especially if Karl isn't able to play in game 3. Personally, I just dunno if the Lakers bench can continue to produce. I think they're in trouble if Karl and Gary don't score more.

And, well, Rip only had 12 points in game one so he hasn't been scoring 20-25 a game anyway.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 9, 2004, 7:10 pm

Sylvus wrote:And I'm pretty sure you won't see Ben Wallace playing for the Suns anytime soon either.

Ben Wallace was just mentioned as a free agent but I wouldn't laugh about Kobe coming to the Suns!

Kobe is good friends with our coach and if you were around Phoenix, you'd hear again and again that the Suns have someone wrapped up (unofficially of course) as a free agent. The talk shows talk as if he's already here. It's obvisous when listening to him that our coach definately knows something about who's coming here. We kept our coach because of Kobe...no other reason to keep him.

Remember they dumped Marburry, Penny, Gulgiotta, and some others this year alone. The past two years they've cleaned house of all the dead weight contracts.

Amare Stoudemire, Joe Johnson and Shawn Marion make up a good young nucleus for Kobe to join with the idea that we'd pick up a decent center as well (that's where Wallace comes in!)

We shall see. Kobe has a good shot at being in Stripes or Purple next year! laugh away!

xZiBiT · Post by **xZiBiT** » June 9, 2004, 7:13 pm

Sylvus wrote:And I'm pretty sure you won't see Ben Wallace playing for the Suns anytime soon either.

i second that

Ben Wallace is the biggest/best thing that happened to detroit since isiah thomas, he is the heart of the pistons but more importantly the heart of their fanbase and his energy sells out the palace just about everynight

there isn't any bigger reason why the pistons have led the league in attendance the past two seasons than Ben Wallace, no matter how "Ugly" the basketball is, Ben Wallace is the main reason 22,000 people pack into the palace and watch the game

that is a fact, no one can dispute it, if you try, go to a pistons game and watch the sea of #3 jersey's and afro wearing fans that file into the stadium

the pistons are flourishing financially in Michigan because of ben wallace, and now with Rip locked up, they have a secondary marketing tool

to trade/release Big Ben would be an even bigger mistake by the pistons than not drafting carmelo anthony

noel · Post by **noel** » June 9, 2004, 7:16 pm

Karae,

Good post on Kobe vs. Jordan, but the statistics lack a few points which I feel are relevant to such a discussion.

Jordan's age when he won his first championship ~28.

Throughout his career including his rookie career, Jordan was always the number one option for the Chicago Bulls wheras in Kobe's first few seasons he saw limited play time.

I don't believe Kobe is anywhere near his prime at this point in his career. I think he's still learning, and I expect him to become a better player.

It's my feeling that Michael Jordan was the greatest NBA player of all time by far. An argument could be made that Magic Johnson through his ability to play all positions on the court was a better player, but... That's a whole different discussion. Kobe Bryant is not Michael Jordan, and he never will be, but they are similar players, and the comparison is very relevant. Add to that the fact that Kobe's career is in it's infancy, and I think it's certainly possible that he could reach the level that Jordan played at. I also think it's reasonable to say that Kobe's game has improved every year.

Thoughts?

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 9, 2004, 7:19 pm

Eh Kobe is a better player by Shaq by far. Shaq surfs on his body, he far from has the skills of the best players.

That said, if Kobe does not end up in jail I believe by the end of his career he will be listed side by side with MJ if not above. And I don't particularly like Kobe nor the Lakers heh.

Btw.. Kobe said he would accept an invitation from New York if they were to give him one for a recruiting trip heh.

Post by **Sylvus** » June 9, 2004, 7:20 pm

xZiBiT wrote:to trade/release Big Ben would be an even bigger mistake by the pistons than not drafting carmelo anthony

I'm still not sure that us not drafting Carmello was a mistake. He would have had virtually no pt on the Pistons this year and would have made virtually no impact. The reason he played so well is because of the team (or lack thereof) that he played on.

That said, I'd probably rather have Carmello on the bench than Darko.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 9, 2004, 7:21 pm

Whats the cap situation like in Detroit?

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » June 9, 2004, 7:57 pm

Aranuil wrote:
Winnow wrote:With Kobe hitting the road and coming to play for the Suns or someone else next year...
BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

Kobe is going nowhere.

Other than jail that is...

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 9, 2004, 8:04 pm

On that note.. I wonder what the cell phone text messages they are pulling in will show.. That can make or break the case for Kobe.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 9, 2004, 8:06 pm

Kelshara wrote:On that note.. I wonder what the cell phone text messages they are pulling in will show.. That can make or break the case for Kobe.

Hadn't heard about that... I can google it if you don't have linkage...

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 9, 2004, 8:08 pm

http://us.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/06/07 ... ecords.ap/

Should have linked it sorry.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 9, 2004, 8:10 pm

No, thanks... I've been kind of loosely following it, since it's all really moot until it goes to trial, but I hadn't heard about that. Thanks!

Karae · Post by **Karae** » June 9, 2004, 8:37 pm

Kelshara wrote:Eh Kobe is a better player by Shaq by far. Shaq surfs on his body, he far from has the skills of the best players.

That said, if Kobe does not end up in jail I believe by the end of his career he will be listed side by side with MJ if not above. And I don't particularly like Kobe nor the Lakers heh.

Btw.. Kobe said he would accept an invitation from New York if they were to give him one for a recruiting trip heh.

More skilled != better. Shaq is better, his dominance of the low block contributes more to the team. He makes his teammates better by erasing a lot of their defensive mistakes and commanding multiple bodies everytime he touches the ball and everytime a shot goes up. Many of the Lakers offensive rebounds are specifically because Shaq can control 2-3 people freeing another teammate to get the loose ball. The Lakers are built around Shaq for a reason: Kobe is replaceable, Shaq is not.

Is Shaq's dominance based largely on his strength, size, and physicality? Absolutely. But that advantage outweighs (no pun intended) Kobe's superior skill. It's why some would argue that he ranks above MJ as the greatest all time - personally I don't agree but my reasons for that have nothing to do with MJ being more skilled.

Point taken, Aranuil. Statistics are not the end all be all of comparison between players. They are a part of the comparison, though. Kobe only averaged significantly fewer MPG than MJ in his first season - in his second season he even averaged more MPG than MJ's second season average.

I don't believe the age they won at is really relevant. As you've already stated, Kobe is not as big a part of his team as MJ was his. Kobe wouldn't have won any championships without Shaq at this point. And, please, spare me the Scottie Pippen comments, MJ could have done it with any one of a number of players - just like Shaq could have, Kobe was along for the ride and so was Scottie.

I'm not gonna argue what Kobe will become, I'm not prescient. But right now, to suggest that he's in the same category as MJ or even approaching it, is ludicrous.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 9, 2004, 8:45 pm

I agree to a certain degree, but will disagree on one part: MJ was not alone on the team. At the time, Mr. Lunatic himself (Dennis Rodman) was an excellent rebounder and to SOME degree dominated. Not like Shaq no, but he was a huge force to be reckoned with. As was Scottie Pippen even though I'll spare you a huge argument for him. I never liked him or Bulls anyway! heh.

I guess the question is: If Kobe did not have Shaq but had GOOD (not great) teammates like MJ did.. would he be more or less dominating? Impossible to answer really since at this time we have no idea.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 9, 2004, 8:48 pm

Karae wrote:Is Shaq's dominance based largely on his strength, size, and physicality? Absolutely. But that advantage outweighs (no pun intended) Kobe's superior skill. It's why some would argue that he ranks above MJ as the greatest all time - personally I don't agree but my reasons for that have nothing to do with MJ being more skilled.

Point taken, Aranuil. Statistics are not the end all be all of comparison between players. They are a part of the comparison, though. Kobe only averaged significantly fewer MPG than MJ in his first season - in his second season he even averaged more MPG than MJ's second season average.

I don't believe the age they won at is really relevant. As you've already stated, Kobe is not as big a part of his team as MJ was his. Kobe wouldn't have won any championships without Shaq at this point. And, please, spare me the Scottie Pippen comments, MJ could have done it with any one of a number of players - just like Shaq could have, Kobe was along for the ride and so was Scottie.

I'm not gonna argue what Kobe will become, I'm not prescient. But right now, to suggest that he's in the same category as MJ or even approaching it, is ludicrous.

Mostly agree.

Whether or not Kobe is the greatest of all time is not something that can even be discussed until much later in his career. If there are people saying he is now, they've either never seen MJ play, or they're retarded...

I'm not saying Kobe is better because he won earlier. I'm saying that Kobe has the potential to end up with more championships. For certain, the first 3 were Shaq's wins, with Kobe as the supporting member, but I see that changing down the road no matter which team Kobe ends up playing for (I think he'll be with the Lakers because the Lakers organization sees Kobe as their most important asset and I believe they'll do whatever it takes including booting Phil Jackson or Shaq to keep Kobe around).

Scottie Pippen wasn't necessary for Jordan to win, but he did make it easier for Jordan, and for Phil Jackson, because Jordan could come out of the game and they could still have a consistent focal point for the Bulls offense while Jordan got a rest. By the same token, Shaq could have won without Kobe, but Kobe made it MUCH easier... No comparison between Shaq/Jordan as the focal point and Bryant/Pippen as the supporting cast. Bryant is far and away better than Pippen in terms of the help Bryant gave Shaq in getting rings imho.

I also agree that Shaq is not replacable. He has his weaknesses, but there is no single player in the NBA who can counteract his strenghts when he's healthy and motivated. I think the Lakers would be foolish to part with Shaq, Kobe, or Phil Jackson, but I suppose we'll see what the offseason brings.

Kelsh: In my opinion there's no way Kobe would have gotten a ring if he were in a T-Mac, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, etc. Lots of great individual players (for the record none close to MJ in any way), but none of them have been able to succeed at making their team good enough to get a ring.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » June 9, 2004, 9:28 pm

The way I see it:

Kobe has completed phase one. This year is the end of the first phase of his career. Now, he has earned the right to have the rest of his career judged alongside the best. If he can win championships, or at least play dominant basketball, on a new team (whether he leaves the lakers or not) then his name must be included in the discussion. On the other hand, if he can't do that, then he may have a status sort of like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: Everyone thinks he was good, but he's still kind of second tier. No one would compare him to Bill Russell.

Speaking of which, at this point in his career, there's still several players Kobe has yet to eclipse:

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Oscar Robertson
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajouwan
Tim Duncan
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Julius Erving

Off the top of my head. He's only like 26 still, isn't he? There's a long time to go to judge him.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 9, 2004, 9:38 pm

Kelsh: In my opinion there's no way Kobe would have gotten a ring if he were in a T-Mac, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, etc. Lots of great individual players (for the record none close to MJ in any way), but none of them have been able to succeed at making their team good enough to get a ring.

I mostly agree, which is why I tried to put the thought out of Kobe being on a similar team to MJ (aka GOOD players but not great.. AI, T-Mac and Vince currently have zero support at all).. how would he play? I'd love to give an answer, but I can't.

Sueven,
He'll be 26 in August. And bonus points for putting Tim Duncan on that list, he is my favourite player after David Robinson retired! Had the pleasure of living in San Antonio for a while and damn.. they are both perfect class acts and do a HUGE job for the city. Wish more athletes were like them.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 9, 2004, 10:33 pm

Soooo...if you look at it by age, Kobe has three rings before Jordan had his first and could have four rings after this series before Jordan had his first.

The way our whacky society rates people you have to look at it this way...if Kobe was assassinated today, where would he place? People tend to project things when that happens.

I'm betting Kobe's number will be retired right next to Barkleys in the Suns hall of fame. I automatically hate Lakers but can forgive him because he was so young when they nabbed him.

Karae · Post by **Karae** » June 10, 2004, 12:52 am

Kelshara wrote:I agree to a certain degree, but will disagree on one part: MJ was not alone on the team. At the time, Mr. Lunatic himself (Dennis Rodman) was an excellent rebounder and to SOME degree dominated. Not like Shaq no, but he was a huge force to be reckoned with. As was Scottie Pippen even though I'll spare you a huge argument for him. I never liked him or Bulls anyway! heh.

er...already adressed Scottie. Malone is a future Hall of Famer (albeit an old one) and still an excellent rebounder. Also, Rodman was only on the Bulls for the second set of 3.

Winnow, Kobe is not going to the Suns. He's not going anywhere he won't win a championship. Phoenix does not have the supporting cast. They'd be a first round and out team with him at best - if they picked up Ben Wallace - 2nd round.

I'd like to add quite a few people to Sueven's list.

Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
Bob Pettit
Rick Barry
John Stockton
Isiah Thomas
Clyde Drexler
Moses Malone
George Gervin
Elvin Hayes

In no particular order, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some. But I think all these people had careers that Kobe will be lucky to eclipse.

I'd just like to say, as a matter of personal opinion, that I don't think Allen Iverson is a great player. I could score 25 a game if I got 50 shots! Ok, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but his game does seem a lot like a throw-it-up and hope-it-goes-in style. If I had a doller for everytime he went 4/25 I'd be richer than he is!

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 10, 2004, 12:58 am

I disagree on AI, he has to shoot OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS since he has zero support heh. But oh well..

Was interesting to watch this very same debate on Sportscenter tonight. The question was "Would you take a 25 year old MJ or Kobe?" and they split decissions. They agreed that Kobe shoots better and is a more complete player offensively at 25 than what MJ was, but MJ was the perfect competitor (and his best years came after 25). They also said that having Shaq might actually take something away from Kobe's game since he has to blend in at times and play second fiddle.

Their words, not mine.

Karae · Post by **Karae** » June 10, 2004, 12:59 am

Winnow wrote:Soooo...if you look at it by age, Kobe has three rings before Jordan had his first and could have four rings after this series before Jordan had his first.

A point of contention: The Chicago Bulls were a bonified dynasty. LA is still trying to prove they are (to do so, you typically have to dominate an entire decade). Also, Chicago's dynasty was built entirely on MJ's shoulders. If LA does reach that stature, I don't think many would argue that it was as at least equally built on Shaq and, imo, more on Shaq than on Kobe.

Kobe has yet to show that he can lead a team, win without "the most dominant player in the game" as a teammate, or make his teammates significantly better. Until those questions are answered, we can't really say where he places in history.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 10, 2004, 4:12 am

Karae wrote:
Kobe has yet to show that he can lead a team, win without "the most dominant player in the game" as a teammate, or make his teammates significantly better. Until those questions are answered, we can't really say where he places in history.

Fair enough. It's hard to ignore Shaq's contribution. With Kobe being so young, I'd think at some point he'd want to prove he can win a ring without Shaq. It appears Shaq and Phil Jackson will be back next year. I get the feeling Kobe will want a fresh start outside of basketball as well as in the NBA after the drama in both areas this past year.

He's in the drivers seat pending the trial outcome so if he does leave the Lakers it will be to go to a well built team after all the dealing is done during the offseason. If it happens to be the Suns then it means more than one trade as we need a center.

Maybe a better way to describe Kobe's status is that he's on the right path to be mentioned in the same breath as MJ down the road.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » June 10, 2004, 6:44 am

Kobe can never be compared to MJ or vice versa. in terms of stats.

#1 MJ played in teh NBA longer. but that's because MJ joined the NBA while Kobe was still breast feeding (prolly exagerating). any stat comparisons made now are null/void, imo.

#2 MJ went to college for 4 years. at 22 MJ was a rookie, right? Kobe was a 4 year veteran in the NBA when he hit the age of 22. right? atleast roughly. give or take a year or 2.

the point is, when kobe is done playing he will have played for more years, games, minutes, etc...naturally he will have as good, if not, better stats than MJ if he remains healthy.

as far as the total package, Kobe is no where near a MJ. MJ wasn't just good himself, he made the people around him good. that's what makes a legend. Kobe is an all-star at best.

*i didn't read all the posts. i'm sry if i repeated what someone has already said.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 10, 2004, 8:49 am

Kobe is an all-star at best.

That was just priceless.

If Kobe matures a bit (and I would say he needs to get the hell away from LA and Shaq), he can very well develop into the leader that MJ was I believe. But time will tell.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 10, 2004, 10:42 am

Spang wrote:Kobe can never be compared to MJ or vice versa. in terms of stats.

#1 MJ played in teh NBA longer. but that's because MJ joined the NBA while Kobe was still breast feeding (prolly exagerating). any stat comparisons made now are null/void, imo.

I don't understand how this statement supports your argument that Kobe and MJ cannot be compared to each other in terms of stats.

Spang wrote:#2 MJ went to college for 4 years. at 22 MJ was a rookie, right? Kobe was a 4 year veteran in the NBA when he hit the age of 22. right? atleast roughly. give or take a year or 2.

I don't understand how this statement supports your argument that Kobe and MJ cannot be compared to each other in terms of stats.

Spang wrote:the point is, when kobe is done playing he will have played for more years, games, minutes, etc...naturally he will have as good, if not, better stats than MJ if he remains healthy.

I don't understand how this statement supports your argument that Kobe and MJ cannot be compared to each other in terms of stats. There are stats such as: points per game, assists per game, rebounds per game, FG% per game, etc. that can be directly compared from any one player to another. As an example: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/lebron/line

Spang wrote:as far as the total package, Kobe is no where near a MJ. MJ wasn't just good himself, he made the people around him good. that's what makes a legend. Kobe is an all-star at best.

Not making the players around him better has been the knock on Kobe as he has emerged as a superstar. His +/- rating, as seen here seems to indicate otherwise, as does the fact that this year he's led the Lakers in assists during the playoffs, and was second to Gary Payton during the regular season... As far as Kobe 'just being an all-star at best' LOL! Actually, he was the All-star MVP during the 2002 game. Kobe is what is referred to as a 'perennial all-star' or, an individual who is selected to the all-star team, every year.

Spang wrote:*i didn't read all the posts. i'm sry if i repeated what someone has already said.

You made the arguments that:
A) Kobe Bryant can't be compared to MJ in terms of stats.
B) Kobe Bryant doesn't make the players around him better.
C) Kobe Bryant is an all-star at best.

You demonstrated that you don't understand the way stats work. You presented emotional arguments based on no fact. You failed to present any evidence to support any of your arguments.

Therefore, I'm going to have to disagree with what you said.

xZiBiT · Post by **xZiBiT** » June 10, 2004, 10:43 am

Winnow wrote:Whats the cap situation like in Detroit?

Here's an old article from Feb'04 but it makes some good points about B.Wallace and why the Pistons are not likely to ship him anywhere and he isn't going to be a free agent either.

"Wallace trailed only Toronto Raptors star Vince Carter in voting for the all-star game and received 200,000 more votes than better-known stars Kevin Garnett and Allen Iverson."

"Wallace has established himself as the second-most popular athlete in Michigan - behind only Red Wings captain Steve Yzerman."

"Despite his success, there's one thing he won't do - ask for a new contract. Wallace has two-plus seasons left on his $30-million US, six-year deal. He intends to honour it - without a peep - even if it doesn't equal his value to the Pistons.

"I never imagined I'd make this kind of money, so I'm just thankful," he said."

Karae · Post by **Karae** » June 10, 2004, 8:04 pm

Spang wrote:#2 MJ went to college for 4 years. at 22 MJ was a rookie, right? Kobe was a 4 year veteran in the NBA when he hit the age of 22. right? atleast roughly. give or take a year or 2.

No, MJ went to college for 2 years.

Statistical averages are valid, and I doubt Kobe can pull his above MJ.

Aranuil, I think you're misinterpreting the +/- chart. I don't think anyone would argue that the Lakers are a better team with Kobe Bryant on the floor, but that is because of his individual production. It is basically saying - if you took Kobe Bryant and replaced him with a player that plays fewer than 250 minutes/season, the Lakers will score 10 fewer points per 100 possessions. It's not comparing how much his team scores with him on the court vs. how much they score with him on the bench. This overall rating is also highly weighted, giving bonuses to things like clutch shots. Rosenbaum has, essentially, mathematically massaged the pure +/- rating (in which Kobe was a 4.3 and ranked 52/402) to place the top 20 players in the NBA in the top 20 slots on the list. It's highly mystified and isn't representative at all of how the rest of the team played.

Here's a much more clear +/- chart. This one compares team scoring vs. opposing team scoring with and without the player on the court. It's a much more representative analysis of how the team fares with the player on the court. With this statistic, it's easy to see that Kobe is nowhere near as important to the Lakers as Shaq.

I'd also like to point out that Kobe accounted for 30.29% of the points scored while he was on the court. Compared to Shaq's 27.76%, Gary's 20.21%, and Karl's 18.79% - all of whom outranked him in team +/- - it's easy to see why people say Kobe doesn't make his teammates better.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 10, 2004, 8:17 pm

Karae wrote:
Spang wrote:#2 MJ went to college for 4 years. at 22 MJ was a rookie, right? Kobe was a 4 year veteran in the NBA when he hit the age of 22. right? atleast roughly. give or take a year or 2.
No, MJ went to college for 2 years.

Statistical averages are valid, and I doubt Kobe can pull his above MJ.

Aranuil, I think you're misinterpreting the +/- chart. I don't think anyone would argue that the Lakers are a better team with Kobe Bryant on the floor, but that is because of his individual production. It is basically saying - if you took Kobe Bryant and replaced him with a player that plays fewer than 250 minutes/season, the Lakers will score 10 fewer points per 100 possessions. It's not comparing how much his team scores with him on the court vs. how much they score with him on the bench. This overall rating is also highly weighted, giving bonuses to things like clutch shots. Rosenbaum has, essentially, mathematically massaged the pure +/- rating (in which Kobe was a 4.3 and ranked 52/402) to place the top 20 players in the NBA in the top 20 slots on the list. It's highly mystified and isn't representative at all of how the rest of the team played.

Here's a much more clear +/- chart. This one compares team scoring vs. opposing team scoring with and without the player on the court. It's a much more representative analysis of how the team fares with the player on the court. With this statistic, it's easy to see that Kobe is nowhere near as important to the Lakers as Shaq.

I'd also like to point out that Kobe accounted for 30.29% of the points scored while he was on the court. Compared to Shaq's 27.76%, Gary's 20.21%, and Karl's 18.79% - all of whom outranked him in team +/- - it's easy to see why people say Kobe doesn't make his teammates better.

Interesting +/- chart but look at the one for Phoenix. Archibald is +22 but he certainly isn't an allstar. I suppose it's one of many factors to consider though.

http://www.82games.com/0304PHO.HTM

Karae · Post by **Karae** » June 10, 2004, 8:47 pm

You need a much larger sampling than 1 game and 6 minutes played for it to be accurate. That's why Archibald's is fucked up. It's the same reason why the league has minimum requirements to qualify for the NBA League Leaders List.

Look at his rating on the Toronto Raptors, where he played in 30 games.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 10, 2004, 9:18 pm

Thanks, Karae. Your chart is definitely much better.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » June 11, 2004, 1:11 am

While this was a game 2 thread, I found game 3 quite enjoyable. Be interesting to see in Detroit can keep it up.

Rooting against the Lakers must be what it feels like to root against the Yankees. I have to admit, I enjoyed watching team purple get their asses handed to them tonight. Detroit contests every single shot, it's awesome to watch really.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 11, 2004, 1:24 am

Impressive game indeed. Their defense is insane. The Lakers' injuries are hurting them badly as well though.

I expected Detroit to come out seeking revenge for Game 2, did not expect them to win THIS bad (even though expected them to win). I still believe Lakers will take one in Detroit.

Also, the introduction of the Pistons' starting 5 was impressive, one of the better ones I've seen. Hell's Bells for Ben Wallace was quite fitting!

noel · Post by **noel** » June 11, 2004, 1:54 am

That was the best NBA defense I've seen this year. Fantastic job by Detroit...

I think the Lakers injuries are really starting to take their toll.

xZiBiT · Post by **xZiBiT** » June 11, 2004, 12:50 pm

I find a fanatastic defensesive game more exciting than a high powered offensive game in basketball, baseball, and football.

It's really a shame that more piston's games aren't televised nationally. Watching other teams get swarmed, frustrated, and demoralized is so damned entertaining. But no way, defensive basketball is ugly basketball. I think televising more Pistons/Pacers games nationally would bring more respect to the gamestyle played in the east.

And about the intros, those flames that explode above the baskets are ridiculous, I behind the visitors bench in Game 7 vs the Nets and honestly thought my face was going to melt off everytime those flames shot 50 feet into the air. Ben Wallace has had the same intro for 2 years and the "DONG" everytime he grabs a rebound or blocks a shot energizes the crowd to astronomical porportions. Even at home or at the bar watching the game (I refused to pay $600 bucks for a shitty ticket), you can't help but jump out of your seat and get excited at the "DOOOONG, DOOOONG"

Lakers had better win the next game or they may not get the series back to L.A. and LMAO at whoever said Lakers in 5.

If L.A. wins, I see them doing it in no less than 7 games. But I will be taking Piston's for teh win.

Like I said before, Lakers looked old and tired on defense. Shaq comes out on the pick and roll. Billups has a layup. Payton goes under the screen, Billups has a three pointer. Lakers trap, Hamilton hits a three. Lakers rotate to help defensively, Pistons get a dunk/layup. Honestly, after watching the Piston's defense all season, its pains me to watch the Lakers play defense.

You can say that the Pistons stole one in L.A. but I like to contend it was actually the Lakers stole one in L.A.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 11, 2004, 12:56 pm

They need to stop going under on pick and rolls on Billups! Go over damnit you idiots!

That said, yes they look haggard on defense. Not so sure if it is "old" as.. well not sure what.. With all the injuries (and in particular Malone moving like a gimpy old man with that knee) they can't move fast enough. When you have to play 2 rookies at a time you get in trouble.

xZiBiT · Post by **xZiBiT** » June 11, 2004, 1:02 pm

But everytime the go over, Billups get a free lane because shaq won't show on the pick and roll. If he does show, he usually reaches and picks up a cheap foul. Besides, Payton is getting pummeled on the pick and roll by detroits big men, its like L.A. doesn't even call out the screens so of course he is gonna go under when he does see it. I just hope Chauncey continues to light him up everytime he does.

Edit:
I would just like to add that the Laker's have no defensive answer for Detroit's backcourt up to this point. They better find one in game four before its to late.

I can't wait till sunday.

xZiBiT · Post by **xZiBiT** » June 11, 2004, 2:16 pm

I couldn't have said it better than this Laker's fan about the atmosphere of the Palace during any Pistons game (not just the playoffs).

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... eel/040611