VV Policy Poll - Please read all replies before voting

Post by **Sylvus** » June 8, 2004, 9:09 pm

Okay, with the first use of the *Flame Free* tag in recent memory and the subsequent bannings that resulted for breaking that rule, the question came up as to whether or not we should still enforce it. Here is where you all come in. Please vote as to whether or not we should still allow the use of *FF*. The poll is going to run for 5 days and at the end, the majority winner - regardless of how slight - will be adopted as the official VV policy.

It's that simple. If you vote to keep it, the rule will stay as it always has been and people will get a timeout for flaming on a thread marked FF, and we'll probably do a more formal write-up of the rule in the rules post. If you vote to abolish it, people will always be welcome to flame others wherever they like without having to worry about upsetting other people.*

Feel free to respond to this post trying to convince your fellow voters one way or the other, but we're going to go whichever way wins. To that effect, we hope that you'll read what the other posters have to say before casting your vote so you can be sure you voted the right way. Once the poll is closed up we aren't going to be running another one every week to see if we still want to keep it or if we want to bring it back.

*Please note that all other rules will stay in effect, so spammers, anon trolls, people doing things that are obviously in need of a ban, etc. will still be banned. We're just talking about disrespecting someone else's FF thread.

MooZilla · Post by **MooZilla** » June 8, 2004, 9:15 pm

Three words: No.

It's called the flame vault for a reason. Even if its in a thread about razors with batteries, we love our flames!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 8, 2004, 9:18 pm

I feel it should be used sparingly but there are times when a *FF* is a good idea for a tag.

Examples being posts such as the one Drustwyn made about his sister and posts made about disasters on the level with 9-1-1.

As we saw from Drusts post, people are idiots and can't be counted on to use common sense.

I think we found that *FF* posts never lasted long and people moved on to other threads but they were useful especially when discussing server issues back in the day when guild flamewars were rampant.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » June 8, 2004, 9:45 pm

Well.. I'd say in General Forum.. No. Other areas are ok for *FF* in my opinion. So.. Not sure how to vote. Would have to go with No I guess.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 8, 2004, 10:02 pm

*FF* is a good idea as in cases mentioned. It has been proven time and time again that the masses don't always know when to exercise good judgement and good taste. Having a *FF* thread hurts no one as people are free to not respond to it. It is also key to note that the condition that goes along with *FF* is that you can't just declare a thread *FF* willy nilly. If the post in question is inflammatory that's not proper use of *FF*

I vote yes.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » June 8, 2004, 10:21 pm

Keep the rules the same.

Using common sense, if the thread is **FF** worthy, then by all means, follow the rules. If it's getting to the point where someone's bound to corss the line, split the thread, or someone can be a big enough person to make a new one for the flamers.

If we got more shit like Dregors cock-waving **FF** thread, then go for the time-out.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » June 8, 2004, 10:44 pm

Keep it. However a common sense rule shall be applied. If someone creates a FF thread where you can tell it cant be FF, they will have thier FF rights completely revoked, and if they start whining about it, disciplinary action.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » June 8, 2004, 10:49 pm

It's a good idea to have. Rarely there comes a need for a FF title.. like the above examples. I think the common sense rule should deffinately apply - if someone says somthing with a FF title that is *obviously* flame bait (like Drolgin's post) then I think the mods should edit out the FF tag and let life resume as normal.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » June 8, 2004, 11:13 pm

No.

In my opinion, Toshira didn't flame anyone. "Killers" is not a fucking flame at all, it is his opinion. The tag read, FF not OF for opinion free. If anyone should have been it should have been everyone jumping his shit.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » June 8, 2004, 11:19 pm

We have very free reign on this board. At times it's pretty rough with the personal attacks or whatnot.

If someone wants to say something outside the mantle of flame, having one rule for the whole board isn't asking much.

Let it remain in effect.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 8, 2004, 11:56 pm

Zamtuk wrote:No.

In my opinion, Toshira didn't flame anyone. "Killers" is not a fucking flame at all, it is his opinion. The tag read, FF not OF for opinion free. If anyone should have been it should have been everyone jumping his shit.

This isn't specific to Toshira's post. You're not voting as to whether or not Toshira should have been banned, you're voting as to whether or not FF should remain in effect as in circumstances such as 9/11, Drust's sister, etc.

There is nothing that precludes you from starting another thread to make whatever comment you want regarding an FF thread. Had Toshira done this, there would have been no issue.

Regardless, 'Killers' without context is inflammatory on a Memorial Day thread.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » June 9, 2004, 12:07 am

I am all for posting whatever comes to mind....but... being a total dick on every fucking post is annoying. Send em to their rooms with no dinner!

Laliana · Post by **Laliana** » June 9, 2004, 1:25 am

I voted yes. There are times when it is needed and I'd like the option to be available for anyone to be able to use it when appropriate. Yes, we are all well aware this is flame city, but that doesn't mean it always has to be.

Brittney · Post by **Brittney** » June 9, 2004, 2:15 am

People take shit too seriously up in dis bitch. Flames and hate is what makes message boards worth reading, along with the occasional intelligent discussion. lol

All this FF shit reminds me of people that bitching about seeing explicit shit on TV, if you don’t fuckin like it then change the damn channel.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 9, 2004, 3:39 am

Whos to say what should be FF tho? If it can be used sparingly I dont mind it and tend to stay out of those threads anyways. But if it runs rampant and everything has a FF tag on it, well that would be fucked

noel · Post by **noel** » June 9, 2004, 3:45 am

Trek wrote:Whos to say what should be FF tho? If it can be used sparingly I dont mind it and tend to stay out of those threads anyways. But if it runs rampant and everything has a FF tag on it, well that would be fucked

For the record, when FF was first explained by TheMachine, there were several people that raised your concern, Trek. TheMachine made it clear that if the FF tag was abused, the penalty would be the same for if it was violated.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » June 9, 2004, 8:49 am

Pahreyia, hi, suck my dick while it's waving in front of you.

We self-moderate. Look at who posted negatively in Drustwyn's thread. Yea, like I thought. They get zero respect around here, that's our moderation.

* sorry, had to leave that computer, now I continue! *

Anyways, I'll personally ignore FF tags. You can keep banning me for a week as I do it for all I care. If someone says something worthy of flaming, I will flame. End of story for me.

Morgrym · Post by **Morgrym** » June 9, 2004, 9:30 am

IF *FF* is that needed, why not make a FlameFree section of the board? Have all *FF* rules apply there. That way if someone does not want to see it, they don't have to even be given the option. However, if they do take that option and choose to violate the *FF* policy, perhaps the penalty should be a tad stiffer.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » June 9, 2004, 9:45 am

There's already enough forums on this board. Jesus, for a democratic nation you guys can be real prudes. If someone posts something truly serious, something grave like they have cancer or their parents were killed or what have you, and someone has the nerve to flame them, we'll gut them alive. Let them make a fool of themselves. It's part of our process here.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » June 9, 2004, 9:50 am

The rare topic to read without the collective unnecessary sarcastic or flamespraying input of individuals like spang, Dakamura, Kyu, Midnite_Ragebringer, and countless of other trolls attempting to derail the topic or only add worthless innane commentary to it would be a breath of fresh air.

Remember, you can disagree with someone without actively flaming with them about it - so no, I would not be against a *FF* forum. Barring that, the *FF* tag serves a very important sanctuary role for the rare post that should itself be *FF* - like holiday wishes, announcements that someone has died, notification that someone we know here has been gravely injured, ect. If you want to flame that bad, it takes lesss than a full minute to create a new thread allowing you to do so.

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » June 9, 2004, 10:29 am

I would be very much in favor of people posting frivolous *FF* threads to get hit hard with the ban stick.

*FF* threads for serious topics are certainly appropriate in any forum on these boards. I doubt it's necessary to create a whole new *FF* forum.

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » June 9, 2004, 10:31 am

Shove *FF* threads in their own fucking forum and keep them out of any other forum and then I'd probably agree to recognize them

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » June 9, 2004, 10:32 am

You didn't enjoy your ban, I see..

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » June 9, 2004, 10:33 am

Akaran_D wrote:You didn't enjoy your ban, I see..

I was never banned

Edit: Haha I was banned and didn't even notice...I haven't visited VV in over 24 hours since I just moved

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 9, 2004, 11:24 am

FF threads are needed.

The people arguing against them align perfectly with the reason they need to exist. The same people that feel that a time of national tragedy is time to seek blame rather than solutions cause a need for FF.

I agree that posting **FF** KYOUKAN IS A DUMB CUNT **FF** is just as wrong as Kyoukan or even me flaming on a FF thread and if I did it I would deserve a week off. But if someone wants to be nice about a holiday, or say they love someone in the military, or say they are proud of their son/daughter/wife/husband in the military or working in the goverment etc they should be able to do so without taking shit. If they want to post about how they feel about the music of a musician that just died ( e.g. Kurt Cobain) they should be able to do so in grief, without someone like me pointing out he was a pathetic loser.

Let's face it, we all like to argue on VV, we all like the friends we have here, and many hate their enemies, but a few people "just do not get it" and thus FF makes sense. There are people that post here I would not give a glass of water to in the desert (Kyoukan as an example), there are people posting here (2 if you count Agdarr) that I would stomp into the dirt on sight, there are people posting here that I think are almost entirely wrong IMHO but I would happily buy them a drink of their choice and sit back and BS with ( Forthe ), there are people here I would not be seen in public with, and I have no respect for their views ( Xzion) but it does not hurt me to read them. Most of us feel that way or other ways about the VV community, but this being a net thing and anonymous, some people abuse that, and I think there is no other choice to to have a safe outlet within our community when someone wants to say how they feel about something without catching a bunch of unneeded grief from people that would never say such things in person.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » June 9, 2004, 11:24 am

Damn I thought *FF* meant Flame Fest. Oh well. I like the self moderate concept better than having people get banned. If something is so important that they want it FF then I think it really shouldn't be posted in the general forum.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » June 9, 2004, 12:55 pm

Dregor Thule wrote:Pahreyia, hi, suck my dick while it's waving in front of you.

We self-moderate. Look at who posted negatively in Drustwyn's thread. Yea, like I thought. They get zero respect around here, that's our moderation.

* sorry, had to leave that computer, now I continue! *

Anyways, I'll personally ignore FF tags. You can keep banning me for a week as I do it for all I care. If someone says something worthy of flaming, I will flame. End of story for me.

Tell me you had a better reason to make that bullshit **FF** thread other than to wave your prosthetic cock around. Self-moderation is raising yourself a little high on your totem pole. This board has moderators. They let a lot of shit slide, but there ARE rules. There were rules on day one, and they still apply today. Why should you get away with being a witless fucktard when we're banning other morons for the same offense.... Because you're not an anon-fucktard? Because you have a post count?

Bullshit. You're no better than anyone else here, and the rules apply to everyone. Get off your high horse and stop waving your pathetic little rebellion around. You're in the minority.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » June 9, 2004, 2:00 pm

They are by all means welcome to ban me. If moderation means banning people for not following assinine, stupid rules, instead of punishing stupidity period, then fine. Of course I made that post as a point. What one person views as worth of FF may not be to another.

I heartily encourage a banning on me.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » June 9, 2004, 2:20 pm

I say No.

This is similar to the debate about game names with some games. Lots of people get bent out of shape when they see retarded character names in an MMORPG, but I frankly think that there is no better way of steering clear of a retard than when he has a great big sign letting me know he is an idiot.

I agree with Dregor. If people want to step out of line, then it is only themselves they are hurting. People who act like cunts on this board generally get treated like cunts. Often they end up leaving (some for just 20 days or so *ahem*) because they don't have the social connection that most of us have here.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » June 9, 2004, 2:24 pm

Dregor Thule wrote:They are by all means welcome to ban me. If moderation means banning people for not following assinine, stupid rules, instead of punishing stupidity period, then fine. Of course I made that post as a point. What one person views as worth of FF may not be to another.

I heartily encourage a banning on me.

I second the banning of Dregor Phule.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » June 9, 2004, 2:25 pm

Third it.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 9, 2004, 2:30 pm

Atokal wrote:I second the banning of Dregor Phule.

We're not banning anyone to satisfy your assanine personal vendetta toward someone who's gotten over on you every time you've posted.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 9, 2004, 2:35 pm

*FF*s weren't that big a deal. Many old school VVers were banned for a day or week and survived.

People like Dregor can prove his loyalty to freedom from oppression ideals by being banned on a *FF* and it would be considered a badge of honor for the Free Willy crowd.

I like *FF* and know from experience it's used very sparingly. If anything, it will encourage more healthy flamefests outside of the FF thread. You know damn well if you have an issue with something in an FF thread that you can post your own non FF thread and you'll get your point across with flames aplenty.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » June 9, 2004, 2:41 pm

Winnow wrote:I like *FF* and know from experience it's used very sparingly. If anything, it will encourage more healthy flamefests outside of the FF thread. You know damn well if you have an issue with something in an FF thread that you can post your own non FF thread and you'll get your point across with flames aplenty.

That would be the reasonable, sensible and logical approach. But you should know better than to propose that in Dregor's presence.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » June 9, 2004, 2:55 pm

I say keep it, serously, how many discussions are marked FF? Not many... AND if you really have to flame them, just create another thread to start the discussion. If it's worth it, everyone will jump on the band wagon

I vote yes.

Marb

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » June 9, 2004, 3:31 pm

HELP HELP I'M BEING REPRESSED

bloody peasant

Did you hear that, dead giveaway, did you hear him repressing me

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » June 9, 2004, 3:57 pm

Pahreyia wrote:
Winnow wrote:I like *FF* and know from experience it's used very sparingly. If anything, it will encourage more healthy flamefests outside of the FF thread. You know damn well if you have an issue with something in an FF thread that you can post your own non FF thread and you'll get your point across with flames aplenty.
That would be the reasonable, sensible and logical approach. But you should know better than to propose that in Dregor's presence.

Why is that logical? Whether its on thread A or thread B, its still said. The person who wanted it FF will STILL read the "flame" so what difference does it make? You are just moving something from point A to point B. How is that a solution? Would you ban the person for starting their own thread? No, but yet you'd ban them if their text was in the original thread.

That's not logic. You're deluding yourself if you think there is any difference between posting a "flame" on thread A and posting it on thread B.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 9, 2004, 4:08 pm

Lalanae wrote:
Pahreyia wrote:
Winnow wrote:I like *FF* and know from experience it's used very sparingly. If anything, it will encourage more healthy flamefests outside of the FF thread. You know damn well if you have an issue with something in an FF thread that you can post your own non FF thread and you'll get your point across with flames aplenty.
That would be the reasonable, sensible and logical approach. But you should know better than to propose that in Dregor's presence.
Why is that logical? Whether its on thread A or thread B, its still said. The person who wanted it FF will STILL read the "flame" so what difference does it make? You are just moving something from point A to point B. How is that a solution? Would you ban the person for starting their own thread? No, but yet you'd ban them if their text was in the original thread.

That's not logic. You're deluding yourself if you think there is any difference between posting a "flame" on thread A and posting it on thread B.

The point is that you are free to flame away on any issue including ill sisters of VV members if you feel it's a must. Your right to flame isn't taken away. There's a valid rational for having a few FFs and allowing the moderators to quickly edit the posts and boot the offender to leave the message of the original poster intact without posts bent on pissing you off intentionally to interrupt the flow.

I'm sure there are some threads that I or someone else derail that you wished would have stayed on topic longer than two posts. I haven't seen a comment yet from Forthe but I'd bet he'd vote for FF to avoid derailments from time to time.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » June 9, 2004, 4:20 pm

Winnow wrote: ...to leave the message of the original poster intact without posts bent on pissing you off intentionally to interrupt the flow.

You are trying to redefine FF now. Its not an issue of "derailments" or "interrupting the flow." Its about not acting like an asshole in certain situations. Has nothing to do with the continuity in a thread. Its a matter of people wanting others to be respectful about certain topics. Whether they deposit their text in one place or another, it doesn't matter.

Mak · Post by **Mak** » June 9, 2004, 5:49 pm

I agree with Lalanae- a topic is either FF or it is not. Starting a new thread to flame the first thread seems really, really stupid to me.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » June 10, 2004, 1:29 am

Make a FF or Real Life forum and let the overly sensitive types linger in there. Other than real life issues, there really isn't a need for a FF tag.

There's entirely not enough flaming here as it is.

Lynxe · Post by **Lynxe** » June 10, 2004, 8:53 am

I voted yes. Ban people for stupid FF threads or for breaking the FF rule. A lot of people on this board actually like each other and use this as a way to keep in contact. When a little FF slips in, it is nice to see (but not often mind you!)

FF tag goes both ways Dreg, if the majority want it and you don't agree with it - just don't read it

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » June 10, 2004, 11:54 am

I voted yes... If you honestly think you need to prove some point that this is america and you will not be censored !!1!!!! then go ahead, but get banned for doing it.

Like everyone else has said, in the rare case that you have something very serious to say you shouldnt have to see someone directly disrespecting what you said, and whether they get reemed by everyone else on the board for doing it is irrelevant, whoever it was that mentioned that above. Because if you made a post here saying, i am dying of cancer or whatever the case.. and two posts down on it someone told you they hoped you died slow - whether or not they were disciplined isnt going to mean jack shit to you - you are still going to be hurt and/or mad.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » June 10, 2004, 12:01 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:I voted yes... If you honestly think you need to prove some point that this is america and you will not be censored !!1!!!! then go ahead, but get banned for doing it.

Like everyone else has said, in the rare case that you have something very serious to say you shouldnt have to see someone directly disrespecting what you said, and whether they get reemed by everyone else on the board for doing it is irrelevant, whoever it was that mentioned that above. Because if you made a post here saying, i am dying of cancer or whatever the case.. and two posts down on it someone told you they hoped you died slow - whether or not they were disciplined isnt going to mean jack shit to you - you are still going to be hurt and/or mad.

And how would them getting banned help more? You'd still read their reply.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 10, 2004, 12:02 pm

Dregor Thule wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:I voted yes... If you honestly think you need to prove some point that this is america and you will not be censored !!1!!!! then go ahead, but get banned for doing it.

Like everyone else has said, in the rare case that you have something very serious to say you shouldnt have to see someone directly disrespecting what you said, and whether they get reemed by everyone else on the board for doing it is irrelevant, whoever it was that mentioned that above. Because if you made a post here saying, i am dying of cancer or whatever the case.. and two posts down on it someone told you they hoped you died slow - whether or not they were disciplined isnt going to mean jack shit to you - you are still going to be hurt and/or mad.
And how would them getting banned help more? You'd still read their reply.

If they knew they would be banned maybe they wouldnt reply.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » June 10, 2004, 12:23 pm

well, It shouldn't even have to be a rule anyhow, because people should just be mature and have decent judgement, but we all know damn well that is never going to be the case 100% on this board or any other for that matter..

Point is, if you want to be outright rude and disrespectful there should be some kind of ban in effect. Yes it's not going to help because you still have seen the post, but that's not to say that it may not make you feel better that the person being a fuck to you in a serious time will be gone from the board for a while.

Because what have we learned from the past few instances of this ?

the thing with the guys sister (cant remember who it was) that was sick and the people who posted on that and said she is ugly or bla bla . Well I would hope those people got hit by a car on their way to work the next day, but the least they can get is a banning for a while..

Or how about Toshira, yeah banning him didnt change what he said, but it did make other fuckstains like fesuni or whoever come out of the woodworks and say their fucked up 2 cents where it wasnt wanted or welcomed. (people like these btw, should be sent to live the remainder of their lives in the fucking republic of congo)

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » June 10, 2004, 12:41 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:well, It shouldn't even have to be a rule anyhow, because people should just be mature and have decent judgement, but we all know damn well that is never going to be the case 100% on this board or any other for that matter..

Point is, if you want to be outright rude and disrespectful there should be some kind of ban in effect. Yes it's not going to help because you still have seen the post, but that's not to say that it may not make you feel better that the person being a fuck to you in a serious time will be gone from the board for a while.

Because what have we learned from the past few instances of this ?

the thing with the guys sister (cant remember who it was) that was sick and the people who posted on that and said she is ugly or bla bla . Well I would hope those people got hit by a car on their way to work the next day, but the least they can get is a banning for a while..

Or how about Toshira, yeah banning him didnt change what he said, but it did make other fuckstains like fesuni or whoever come out of the woodworks and say their fucked up 2 cents where it wasnt wanted or welcomed. (people like these btw, should be sent to live the remainder of their lives in the fucking republic of congo)

Ok, I get your point now. It's that you're a fucking moron. Gotcha. What you want is a security blanket to pull over yourself as you sleep with your thumb up your ass. Why didn't you just say so! Is that what it is for everyone? Empty, meaningless token gestures that make you feel secure? In that case, here. I think all the people I consider idiots on these boards are just swell! How's that for empty!

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » June 10, 2004, 12:52 pm

Yeah, because that's what I was getting at you fucking idiot. How many FF threads have there been in the past year even ? like 5 maybe, the point is, is it that big of a deal for you and whoever to be decent on those 5 threads a year ? I don't really think it is.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 10, 2004, 1:03 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:Yeah, because that's what I was getting at you fucking idiot. How many FF threads have there been in the past year even ? like 5 maybe, the point is, is it that big of a deal for you and whoever to be decent on those 5 threads a year ? I don't really think it is.

Funk:

Please Excuse Dregor!! The buffets dont open for another 30 min.
Hence his short temper.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » June 10, 2004, 1:07 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:Yeah, because that's what I was getting at you fucking idiot. How many FF threads have there been in the past year even ? like 5 maybe, the point is, is it that big of a deal for you and whoever to be decent on those 5 threads a year ? I don't really think it is.

If they're saying something stupid and I want to tell them that, then yes, it is. If it isn't, then I won't say it. I don't need some little tag telling me when and where I can express myself here.

VeeshanVault