Tests Confirm Sarin Gas in Baghdad Bomb

What do you think about the world?
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Tests Confirm Sarin Gas in Baghdad Bomb

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

May 25, 7:43 PM EDT

Tests Confirm Sarin Gas in Baghdad Bomb

By JOHN J. LUMPKIN
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Comprehensive testing has confirmed the presence of the chemical weapon sarin in the remains of a roadside bomb discovered this month in Baghdad, a defense official said Tuesday.

The determination, made by a laboratory in the United States that the official would not identify, verifies what earlier, less-thorough field tests had found: the bomb was made from an artillery shell designed to disperse the deadly nerve agent on the battlefield.

The origin of the shell remains unclear, and finding that out is a priority for the U.S. military, the defense official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity.

Some analysts worry the 155-millimeter artillery shell, found rigged as a bomb on May 15, may be part of a larger stockpile of Iraqi chemical weapons that insurgents can now use. But no more have turned up, and several military officials have said the shell may have been an older one that predated the 1991 Gulf War.

It likewise is not known whether the bombers knew they had a chemical weapon. Military officials have said the shell bore no labels to indicate it was anything except a normal explosive shell, the type used to make scores of roadside bombs in Iraq.

No one was injured in the shell's initial detonation, but two American soldiers who removed the round had symptoms of low-level nerve agent exposure, officials said last week.

The shell was a binary type, which has two chambers containing relatively safe chemicals. When the round is fired from an artillery gun, its rotation mixes the chemicals to create sarin, which is supposed to disperse when the shell strikes its target.

Since it was not fired from a gun but was detonated as a bomb, the initial explosion on May 15 dispersed the precursor chemicals, apparently mixing them in only small amounts, officials said then. In battle, such shells would have to be fired in great numbers to effect a large body of troops.

Iraq's first field-test of a binary-type shell containing sarin was in 1988, U.S. defense officials have said.

Saddam's government only disclosed the testing and production after Iraqi weapons chief Lt. Gen. Hussein Kamel al-Majid, Saddam's son-in-law, defected in 1995. Saddam's government never declared any sarin or shells filled with sarin remained.

Saddam's alleged stockpile of weapons of mass destruction was the Bush administration's chief stated reason for invading Iraq. U.S. weapons hunters have been unable to validate the prewar intelligence.

Some trace elements of mustard agent, an older type of chemical weapon, were detected in an artillery shell found in a Baghdad street this month, U.S. officials said previously. The shell also was believed to be from one of Saddam's old stockpiles.

© 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

The very reason many people bash this war has been the inability to find evidence of WMD's. They find some and yet the "un-biased" media doesn't report this as a crucial finding. uh-huh

[/quote]
vn_Tanc
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2398
Joined: July 12, 2002, 12:32 pm
Location: UK

Post by vn_Tanc »

A man with a fork
In a world of soup
Image
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Read the date on the article. Wakey wakey
vn_Tanc
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2398
Joined: July 12, 2002, 12:32 pm
Location: UK

Post by vn_Tanc »

Comprehensive testing has confirmed the presence of the chemical weapon sarin in the remains of a roadside bomb discovered this month in Baghdad
Date of news story in the other link: 17th May. It's still May. It's the same bomb.
A man with a fork
In a world of soup
Image
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Excellent point man. Since this is a duplicate post we shouldn't discuss this topic. Let's instead point out that a similar topic exists. Brilliant!
User avatar
Lalanae
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 3309
Joined: September 25, 2002, 11:21 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by Lalanae »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Excellent point man. Since this is a duplicate post we shouldn't discuss this topic. Let's instead point out that a similar topic exists. Brilliant!
??

are you new here?
Lalanae
Burundi High Chancellor for Tourism, Sodomy and Pie
Unofficial Canadian, Forbidden Lover of Pie, Jesus-Hatin'' Sodomite, President of KFC (Kyoukan Fan Club), hawt, perververted, intellectual submissive with E.S.P (Extra Sexual Persuasion)
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Nope. But I have always found it monumentally stupid to do this. Why the fuck should I scroll all the way down past 30+ topics to make sure there isn't a similar topic? It is indicative of the mindset of many people on this board. Distract and discredit.
User avatar
Truant
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4440
Joined: July 4, 2002, 12:37 am
Location: Trumania
Contact:

Post by Truant »

ATTENTION: WE FOUND A SHELL. I REPEAT WE HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. COMMENCE SLAUGHTER OF IRAQI INNOCENTS AS WE HAVE EVIDENCE TO JUSTIFY.


Ok, they found one shell, some jackasses found and decided to try and macguyver into a bomb. Why did you feel the need to point this out? Are you feeling guilty because you bought into the WMD horseshit they sold you, and have since been wondering if they lied to you or not? Or do you just think you're right and we're wrong, like every other day? I see you babbled some more about the evil media...hey here's a thought, if you can't stand it so much, QUIT FUCKING READING IT.

Now, as to your post, what's your point?
User avatar
Ashur
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2604
Joined: May 14, 2003, 11:09 am
Location: Columbus OH
Contact:

Post by Ashur »

It's pointless, like most of the posts here. Including this one.
- Ash
User avatar
Akaran_D
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4151
Joined: July 3, 2002, 2:38 pm
Location: Somewhere in my head...
Contact:

Post by Akaran_D »

1 shell that is ages old and improperly used does not equate to WMD.
Sheesh. You can GROW WMD's with more lethality than the trace ammount of saryn located in that shell.

It doesn't even prove that Sadam didn't blow all the gas agents he had to begin with - it just shows that some collector junkie pulled one out of the destroy pile and kept hold of it.

Of course, it doesn't prove that he didn't, either - to look at both sides of the argument.
Akaran of Mistmoore, formerly Akaran of Veeshan
I know I'm good at what I do, but I know I'm not the best.
But I guess that on the other hand, I could be like the rest.
User avatar
Skogen
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1972
Joined: November 18, 2002, 6:48 pm
Location: Claremont, Ca.
Contact:

Post by Skogen »

Yeah, one derelict 155mm arty shell w/ Sarin gas is a obvious sign that they MUST have a HUGE amount of these somewhere. So many, that we must spend billions of taxpayer dollars, get 500+ of our own people killed, thousands wounded (many of them seriously), kill & maim untold numbers of Iraqis, and completely destroy whatever semblance of a good reputation this country had in the middle east in order to stop this threat!!

Midnight, you need a serious wake up call. I really have no idea wtf happened to you when you grew up.
vn_Tanc
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2398
Joined: July 12, 2002, 12:32 pm
Location: UK

Post by vn_Tanc »

Never mind the fact that he posts an AP article to prove how the media is ignoring the issue. Or the fact that the other thread is a discussion of media reporting of it. . .
A man with a fork
In a world of soup
Image
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

The Media = ABC CBS NBC. Where most people get their news.

You know, you hear a snipet of possible first amendment violations and you guys go apeshit. You hear this news and you are the biggest skeptics. You call names and bash the shit out of me, but you are the hipocrits.
User avatar
Akaran_D
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4151
Joined: July 3, 2002, 2:38 pm
Location: Somewhere in my head...
Contact:

Post by Akaran_D »

Describe to me, in detail, please, how I am a hypocrite.
Akaran of Mistmoore, formerly Akaran of Veeshan
I know I'm good at what I do, but I know I'm not the best.
But I guess that on the other hand, I could be like the rest.
User avatar
Truant
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4440
Joined: July 4, 2002, 12:37 am
Location: Trumania
Contact:

Post by Truant »

How am I the hypocrite?

edit, lol akaran is a mind reader!
User avatar
Kelshara
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4176
Joined: November 18, 2002, 10:44 am
Location: Norway

Post by Kelshara »

Midnyte's posts are growing boring.. "waah wahh nuke towelheads! waah waaah Rumsfeld is god! waaaaah I teach my kids the good morality I have which is so much better than yours!"

There. Think I summed up all your posts in a few sentences.
User avatar
noel
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 10003
Joined: August 22, 2002, 1:34 am
Gender: Male
Location: Calabasas, CA

Post by noel »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:The Media = ABC CBS NBC. Where most people get their news.

You know, you hear a snipet of possible first amendment violations and you guys go apeshit. You hear this news and you are the biggest skeptics. You call names and bash the shit out of me, but you are the hipocrits.
Please describe to me in detail why we should not remain skeptical. Bear in mind the following:

1. We are all well aware that Iraq has in the past, possessed and used chemical weapons.

2. We all acknowledge that the US military has indeed found an artillery shell containing Sarin gas.

3. We have yet to see any sizeable stockpile of any type of WMD within Iraq.

4. We have no firm evidence to suggest that stockpiles in the quantity we were led to believe existed were ever, in fact, in existence.

Skepticism is very healthy. It allows you to maintain some perspective, and not just accept what is fed to you. One shell does not make a stockpile. Show me a warehouse full of WMDs, and then I'll acknowledge that the reasons behind the invasion at least had some credence. Until that time, I'll remain skeptical.

On an unrelated note, you got your ass kicked on the other thread because you claim to be a patriot yet you demonstrated several times over the course of several posts that you haven't the first clue about the importance of the most basic laws this country was founded on. Whether the situation was real or, as it turns out, hypothetical you failed.

On another unrelated note, I get my news from news.bbc.co.uk (BBC news), msnbc.com, and sky.com (Skynews), all of which are fairly unbiased.
Oh, my God; I care so little, I almost passed out.
User avatar
kyoukan
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8548
Joined: July 5, 2002, 3:33 am
Location: Vancouver

Post by kyoukan »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:The Media = ABC CBS NBC. Where most people get their news.

You know, you hear a snipet of possible first amendment violations and you guys go apeshit. You hear this news and you are the biggest skeptics. You call names and bash the shit out of me, but you are the hipocrits.
I don't see anyone skeptical about the story. I don't doubt for a minute it was a sarin gas artillery shell and I don't doubt for a second that there are 10s of thousands more of them somewhere. you know, seeing as how the US fucking SOLD IT TO SADDAM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

are you worried about an Iraqi artillery attack on US soil?
User avatar
Winnow
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 27727
Joined: July 5, 2002, 1:56 pm
Location: A Special Place in Hell

Post by Winnow »

kyoukan wrote:
are you worried about an Iraqi artillery attack on US soil?
Yes! ...no thanks to Canadian-born astro-physicist, Gerald V. Bull and his supergun!

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/other/supergun.htm

The range was only 1,000 km but what's to stop mad canadian scientists from extending that range?!!1!!1!
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Kyo, of course. Who knows who's hands they are in now. If terrorists have them they could bring them into the US and use them on Americans. I worry about them being used on our soldiers over in Iraq. I just hope they find the bulk of them and destroy them.
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Aranuil wrote:
4. We have no firm evidence to suggest that stockpiles in the quantity we were led to believe existed were ever, in fact, in existence.
.
UN reports have shown they did have stockpiles of this stuff. The US in fact waited on attacking Iraqfor several months longer than they wished to, in order to give the UN inspectors more time to find these stockpiles. Iraq was supposed to destroy them and show prove of such. They failed to do so, which is what led us to War.
User avatar
Aslanna
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 12479
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm

Post by Aslanna »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Iraq was supposed to destroy them and show prove of such. They failed to do so, which is what led us to War.
Ha ha!

You seriously believe that?
Have You Hugged An Iksar Today?

--
User avatar
noel
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 10003
Joined: August 22, 2002, 1:34 am
Gender: Male
Location: Calabasas, CA

Post by noel »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Aranuil wrote:
4. We have no firm evidence to suggest that stockpiles in the quantity we were led to believe existed were ever, in fact, in existence.
.
UN reports have shown they did have stockpiles of this stuff. The US in fact waited on attacking Iraqfor several months longer than they wished to, in order to give the UN inspectors more time to find these stockpiles. Iraq was supposed to destroy them and show prove of such. They failed to do so, which is what led us to War.
The stockpiles were not only not found by the UN inspectors, but they were also not found by the US forces that currently occupy, and have free movement within the country. That is to say, if there were 'stockpiles' they are either now gone, no longer exist, or only existed within the minds of the Bush administration.
Oh, my God; I care so little, I almost passed out.
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Kelshara wrote:Midnyte's posts are growing boring.. "waah wahh nuke towelheads! waah waaah Rumsfeld is god! waaaaah I teach my kids the good morality I have which is so much better than yours!"

There. Think I summed up all your posts in a few sentences.
I've never said any of those things. But, yes, often opinions that differ than your own can seem boring. I know I think your posts are filled with low-brow trailer park mentality. I guess that's how the cookie crumbles.
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Aranuil wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Aranuil wrote:
4. We have no firm evidence to suggest that stockpiles in the quantity we were led to believe existed were ever, in fact, in existence.
.
UN reports have shown they did have stockpiles of this stuff. The US in fact waited on attacking Iraqfor several months longer than they wished to, in order to give the UN inspectors more time to find these stockpiles. Iraq was supposed to destroy them and show prove of such. They failed to do so, which is what led us to War.
The stockpiles were not only not found by the UN inspectors, but they were also not found by the US forces that currently occupy, and have free movement within the country. That is to say, if there were 'stockpiles' they are either now gone, no longer exist, or only existed within the minds of the Bush administration.
They had to have gone some where man. If they end up killing your family someday you will wish we'd have found them.
Last edited by Midnyte_Ragebringer on May 26, 2004, 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Skogen
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1972
Joined: November 18, 2002, 6:48 pm
Location: Claremont, Ca.
Contact:

Post by Skogen »

Winnow wrote:
kyoukan wrote:
are you worried about an Iraqi artillery attack on US soil?
Yes! ...no thanks to Canadian-born astro-physicist, Gerald V. Bull and his supergun!

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/other/supergun.htm

The range was only 1,000 km but what's to stop mad canadian scientists from extending that range?!!1!!1!
The Mossaud.
User avatar
Raistin
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1296
Joined: July 2, 2002, 6:23 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Raistin »

Midnyte_Ragebringe


You have made me laugh the hardest this week. hahahaha Iraq is comming for the US! TAKE COVER[/quote]
User avatar
noel
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 10003
Joined: August 22, 2002, 1:34 am
Gender: Male
Location: Calabasas, CA

Post by noel »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:They had to have gone some where man. If they end up killing hyour family someday you will wish we'd have found them.
OK, at this point in the conversation, you should be able to understand the skepticism that people have regarding WMDs in Iraq.

It's entirely possible that if there were large stockpiles they were moved, but movement of large stockpiles of weaponry is extremely difficult when you have the foremost superpower in the world with the best satellite technology in the world watching you. It's entirely possible that the amount of WMDs was not what was suggested by our current administration. There are many aspects of this that call for prudence and skepticism going forward.
Oh, my God; I care so little, I almost passed out.
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Raistin wrote:Midnyte_Ragebringe


You have made me laugh the hardest this week. hahahaha Iraq is comming for the US! TAKE COVER
[/quote]

Ummm, yeah, I never said that though. I said terrorists.
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Honestly Ara, I don't understand the skeptism. It's a fact he had them. He broke numerous UN resolutions pertaining to them. Where did they go?
User avatar
Karae
Almost 1337
Almost 1337
Posts: 878
Joined: July 3, 2002, 5:32 pm
Location: Orange County, California
Contact:

Re: Tests Confirm Sarin Gas in Baghdad Bomb

Post by Karae »

Personally, I don't give a flying fuck if Saddam had WMD and never have. Who are we to tell another nation they can't have them when we have more than anyone else in the world? It's ludicrously hypocritical. Under the best of circumstances it is wrong for us to infringe on another nation's sovereignty, but to do so hypocritically is disgustingly wrong.
War pickles men in a brine of disgust and dread.
User avatar
Skogen
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1972
Joined: November 18, 2002, 6:48 pm
Location: Claremont, Ca.
Contact:

Re: Tests Confirm Sarin Gas in Baghdad Bomb

Post by Skogen »

Karae wrote:Personally, I don't give a flying fuck if Saddam had WMD and never have. Who are we to tell another nation they can't have them when we have more than anyone else in the world? It's ludicrously hypocritical. Under the best of circumstances it is wrong for us to infringe on another nation's sovereignty, but to do so hypocritically is disgustingly wrong.
In a perfect world, I would agree...

but put those weapons in the hands of a nation with a manic at the controls, and all of those values go out the window. What about a in the hands of a hypothetical hard-line muslim government, who uses religion to make the killing of as many americans as possible not only justifiable, but as gods will to do so. Would you not agree we should go in and put a stop to it then?
User avatar
Kelshara
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4176
Joined: November 18, 2002, 10:44 am
Location: Norway

Post by Kelshara »

I've never said any of those things. But, yes, often opinions that differ than your own can seem boring.
Actually, you've come pretty close to saying all of that. Not in the exact words, hence the sum up your posts part. And no I like reading intelligent opinions different from my own, I just can't stand people like you who do nothing but rehash Fox News.
I know I think your posts are filled with low-brow trailer park mentality. I guess that's how the cookie crumbles.
The irony of this coming from you is almost more than I can stand. Thanks for the laugh!
They had to have gone some where man.
One word: Decay.
but put those weapons in the hands of a nation with a manic at the controls, and all of those values go out the window. What about a in the hands of a hypothetical hard-line muslim government, who uses religion to make the killing of as many americans as possible not only justifiable, but as gods will to do so. Would you not agree we should go in and put a stop to it then?
I agree. Should start with Bush :)
User avatar
Akaran_D
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4151
Joined: July 3, 2002, 2:38 pm
Location: Somewhere in my head...
Contact:

Post by Akaran_D »

Still waiting for an explination as to why I'm a hypocrite.
Akaran of Mistmoore, formerly Akaran of Veeshan
I know I'm good at what I do, but I know I'm not the best.
But I guess that on the other hand, I could be like the rest.
User avatar
Pahreyia
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1936
Joined: October 13, 2002, 11:30 pm
Location: Povar

Post by Pahreyia »

Kelshara wrote:
They had to have gone some where man.
One word: Decay.
I have serious doubts that any portion of those devices could decay such that we aren't able to find them.

More than anything else, before turning over Iraq to their own government, I'd like to see us account for a serious majority of their weapons. Whether they were dismantled, sold, buried, detonated or hijacked. I'd just like to know. I don't believe for a second that the burning sands of Arabia could reduce that many weapons to grains of sand in the wind.
User avatar
Kelshara
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4176
Joined: November 18, 2002, 10:44 am
Location: Norway

Post by Kelshara »

The types of WMDs that Iraq had did, for a large part, require fairly specific and expensive storage facilities to prevent decay. Iraq did not have any of these facilities.
User avatar
noel
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 10003
Joined: August 22, 2002, 1:34 am
Gender: Male
Location: Calabasas, CA

Post by noel »

Not only that, the longest ranged delivery mechanism (talking about conventional military only here) that Iraq had was the SCUD which is essentially an unguided missile.
Oh, my God; I care so little, I almost passed out.
User avatar
Pahreyia
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1936
Joined: October 13, 2002, 11:30 pm
Location: Povar

Post by Pahreyia »

Kelshara wrote:The types of WMDs that Iraq had did, for a large part, require fairly specific and expensive storage facilities to prevent decay. Iraq did not have any of these facilities.
Aluminum:
Atomic Number: 13

Atomic Mass: 26.9815

Ground State Electron Configuration: [Ne}3s23p1

Naturally Occurring Isotope: 27
Isotope Half Life
Al-26 730000.0 years
Al-27 Stable
Al-28 2.3 minutes



The half-life of the 26Al isotope is 7.2*10^5 years and is the longest lived known isotope. It is a beta and gamma emitter and is found in meteors.

A bright Perseid meteor sighted in August of 1997

The melting point of aluminum is 933.47 Kelvin, 660.32 degrees Celsius, or 1220.58 degrees Fahrenheit.

It's normal boiling point is 2792 Kelvin, 2579 degrees Celsius, or 4566 degrees Fahrenheit.

The density of aluminum is 2700 Kg m^-3 at 293 k

http://www.chemistry.pomona.edu/Chemist ... uminum.htm
Even if they wrapped their shells or warheads in aluminum, after even twenty years (let's give them the benefit of the doubt for the WoMD that we knew about in 1988), at least something would remain. If they were dismantled, someone would be able to provide credible testimony to that fact, if not disposal sites or documents that cooroborate their testimony, if they were sold someone would know about that and could testify as to where and to whom they were sold.

I'm all for us getting the hell out of Iraq as quickly and as (relatively) painlessly as possible, but I'd be seriosuly disappointed if we still didn't have hide-nor-hair of evidence of where those weapons went to.
User avatar
Vetiria
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1226
Joined: July 3, 2002, 4:50 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Decatur, IL

Post by Vetiria »

First of all, just because something is wrapped in aluminum, for example, doesn't mean the contents held within won't decay.
If they were dismantled, someone would be able to provide credible testimony to that fact, if not disposal sites
Iraqi scientists took weapons inspectors to disposal sites, tested the area, and found positive tests for the chemicals they were looking for. They have proof that at least some of the weapons were destroyed. I doubt you will ever get proof of all the weapons being destroyed.
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:The Media = ABC CBS NBC. Where most people get their news.

You know, you hear a snipet of possible first amendment violations and you guys go apeshit. You hear this news and you are the biggest skeptics. You call names and bash the shit out of me, but you are the hipocrits.
it was one of the lead stories in the 3 CNN news shows during the AM. they teased it across commercial breaks and had at least 3 segments between 9am and 1pm (that i saw) with the "Security Analyst" discussing the story.

i think the biggest thing to note about the Sarin shell is that one of them deployed in a improvised explosive is not a WMD. I also think that it was clear that this shell is not the result of recent weapons programs, correct?
User avatar
Pahreyia
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1936
Joined: October 13, 2002, 11:30 pm
Location: Povar

Post by Pahreyia »

Vetiria wrote:First of all, just because something is wrapped in aluminum, for example, doesn't mean the contents held within won't decay.
If they were dismantled, someone would be able to provide credible testimony to that fact, if not disposal sites
Iraqi scientists took weapons inspectors to disposal sites, tested the area, and found positive tests for the chemicals they were looking for. They have proof that at least some of the weapons were destroyed. I doubt you will ever get proof of all the weapons being destroyed.
Agreed, asking for 100% disclosure after all that has gone on is unrealistic. I'll have to go back and read up on the weapon inspector's reports, but I recall reading or seeing on CNN at some point that the amount of chemical that the inspectors found at the weapon deconstruction facilities and disposal yards was equivalent to a small percentage of the total disclosed amount of weapons that Iraq said they had. Don't quote me on this, but somewhere in the vicinity of 20% accounted for and 80% still requiring proof of dismantling or decommissioning rings a bell in my memory.
User avatar
Karae
Almost 1337
Almost 1337
Posts: 878
Joined: July 3, 2002, 5:32 pm
Location: Orange County, California
Contact:

Re: Tests Confirm Sarin Gas in Baghdad Bomb

Post by Karae »

Skogen wrote: but put those weapons in the hands of a nation with a manic at the controls, and all of those values go out the window. What about a in the hands of a hypothetical hard-line muslim government, who uses religion to make the killing of as many americans as possible not only justifiable, but as gods will to do so. Would you not agree we should go in and put a stop to it then?
Yea well, the same could be said of GeeDub - so the statement is even more valid under his presidency. Please spare us the moral righteousness. We're not better than them.

I'm not sure what the second part of your post is suggesting. Are you saying this ficticious ruler is killing Americans with his ficticious WMDs? Clearly, if someone launched that kind of weaponry on us then there would be cause and need for us to defend ourselves. However, having weapons like this and a hatred for America doesn't warrant a pre-emptive invasion. There's a lot of countries that have them, hate us, and will never use them to attack us. If anything, they have them because they're afraid of us.

Don't forget, we're the only nation to *ever* use nuclear weaponry.

Hypothetically, I'd prefer to see everyone disarm. But that's not the way of things. Armies get bigger, weapons more deadly. So maybe the answer is for other nations to follow our lead, build up their militaries, and hopefully deter our bullying.
War pickles men in a brine of disgust and dread.
User avatar
Karae
Almost 1337
Almost 1337
Posts: 878
Joined: July 3, 2002, 5:32 pm
Location: Orange County, California
Contact:

Post by Karae »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:UN reports have shown they did have stockpiles of this stuff. The US in fact waited on attacking Iraqfor several months longer than they wished to, in order to give the UN inspectors more time to find these stockpiles. Iraq was supposed to destroy them and show prove of such. They failed to do so, which is what led us to War.
You're one of few people stupid enough to use Iraq's violation of U.N. policy as a justification for an invasion that is in violation of U.N. policy.

What the fuck is broken in your brain? How can you say that the U.N. should be respected and obeyed and then immediately turn around and advocate disrespecting and disobeying them by invading Iraq without U.N. support? Can't you see the hypocrisy in that statement?
War pickles men in a brine of disgust and dread.
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Karae wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:UN reports have shown they did have stockpiles of this stuff. The US in fact waited on attacking Iraqfor several months longer than they wished to, in order to give the UN inspectors more time to find these stockpiles. Iraq was supposed to destroy them and show prove of such. They failed to do so, which is what led us to War.
You're one of few people stupid enough to use Iraq's violation of U.N. policy as a justification for an invasion that is in violation of U.N. policy.

What the fuck is broken in your brain? How can you say that the U.N. should be respected and obeyed and then immediately turn around and advocate disrespecting and disobeying them by invading Iraq without U.N. support? Can't you see the hypocrisy in that statement?
Ummmm no I can't, sorry. They unfortunately are the world organization. It just so happens they were so irresponsible with this Iraq thing, we had to take our peoples security into our own hands and go into Iraq on our(with 50 other countries, minus some of the big ones who lacked the balls to put themselves into political jeopardy)

I seriously find your thinking just as fucked up as you do mine. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. I can recognize that and have repeatedly stated that over many threads. I have shown my flexibility. Show yours. (No pics of your actual flexibility please, k, thanks)
User avatar
Kelshara
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4176
Joined: November 18, 2002, 10:44 am
Location: Norway

Post by Kelshara »

As was said, if they were wrapped in aluminium and burried beneath the sands, the metal might still be out there somewhere but there wont be shit inside them. Some areas were inspected and remains were found proving that some was destroyed. Also, if I recall correctly, some Iraqi experts that were interrogated by the US/the UN claimed it was destroyed. Of course they were ignored while the one who claimed it was not destroyed was interviewed everywhere..
User avatar
Forthe
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1719
Joined: July 3, 2002, 4:15 pm
XBL Gamertag: Brutus709
Location: The Political Newf

Post by Forthe »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Karae wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:UN reports have shown they did have stockpiles of this stuff. The US in fact waited on attacking Iraqfor several months longer than they wished to, in order to give the UN inspectors more time to find these stockpiles. Iraq was supposed to destroy them and show prove of such. They failed to do so, which is what led us to War.
You're one of few people stupid enough to use Iraq's violation of U.N. policy as a justification for an invasion that is in violation of U.N. policy.

What the fuck is broken in your brain? How can you say that the U.N. should be respected and obeyed and then immediately turn around and advocate disrespecting and disobeying them by invading Iraq without U.N. support? Can't you see the hypocrisy in that statement?
Ummmm no I can't, sorry. They unfortunately are the world organization. It just so happens they were so irresponsible with this Iraq thing, we had to take our peoples security into our own hands and go into Iraq on our(with 50 other countries, minus some of the big ones who lacked the balls to put themselves into political jeopardy)

I seriously find your thinking just as fucked up as you do mine. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. I can recognize that and have repeatedly stated that over many threads. I have shown my flexibility. Show yours. (No pics of your actual flexibility please, k, thanks)
I'm so sick and tired of lowbrows like you referring to the UN like it is some foreign government. It is not. In fact the UN, due to the disproportionate influence the US has, represents US interests more so than any other nation.

Example: People blame the UN for starving millions of Iraqis with sanctions. Most UN representatives wanted those sanctions lifted or at least eased. The sanctions were forcibly kept in place by 2 countries (the US and UK). Millions of Iraqis starved because the US and UK wanted to use the UN to try to force a regime change. Of course it was under the guise of the now infamous Iraqi WMDs.

The UN isn't some foreign power that makes decisions unilaterally. Everything the UN does it does so with the consent of the US and other security council members.

So please backup your statement on how the UN was irresponsible in dealing with Iraq. What exactly did the UN do without US consent during those years, or what did the UN prevent the US from doing for all those years?
All posts are personal opinion.
My opinion may == || != my guild's.
"All spelling mistakes were not on purpose as I dont know shit ." - Torrkir
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

And you call me low brow? You can't follow a fucking simple point? Jesus man. UN didn't follow through will force after Iraq failed for years and years to comply with UN sanctions. US/UK had to go handle it ourselves. Damn dude. Reading is fondimentil.
User avatar
Forthe
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1719
Joined: July 3, 2002, 4:15 pm
XBL Gamertag: Brutus709
Location: The Political Newf

Post by Forthe »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:And you call me low brow? You can't follow a fucking simple point? Jesus man. UN didn't follow through will force after Iraq failed for years and years to comply with UN sanctions. US/UK had to go handle it ourselves. Damn dude. Reading is fondimentil.
-The UN doesn't have a force to follow through with.
-What resolutions did the US table during those years that called for force?
All posts are personal opinion.
My opinion may == || != my guild's.
"All spelling mistakes were not on purpose as I dont know shit ." - Torrkir
User avatar
Akaran_D
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4151
Joined: July 3, 2002, 2:38 pm
Location: Somewhere in my head...
Contact:

Post by Akaran_D »

Answer my question already, Midnight: How am I a hypocrite?
Akaran of Mistmoore, formerly Akaran of Veeshan
I know I'm good at what I do, but I know I'm not the best.
But I guess that on the other hand, I could be like the rest.
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Akaran_D wrote:Answer my question already, Midnight: How am I a hypocrite?
For fuck sake....when did I directly call you specifically a fucking hipocrit? I didn't, so shut the fuck up already.
Post Reply