Troubling Times

[Adex_Xeda]

http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/35 ... uters.html

You know you can demonize terrorist tactics all you want, but if you look at Spain, those tactics appear to work....


sadly


What do you do, pull out and affirm the terrorist tactic?

Or do you grizzle yourself with even more resolve and swipe harder at shifting vapor of an enemy?

Something big has to change in the way we do things as nations. Our governments don't seem equipped to handle this new phase in warfare.

It reminds me of the impact of the printing press when it was first used widely in Spain, mass produced propaganda leaflets, produced by a revolutionary group trying to oppose Spain's monarchy demonized the government, embelished the king endorsed spainish inquisition into a tyranical myth.

At the time the king didn't know how to handle the onslaught.

A few revolutionaries with new tactics (the printing press) sent shockwaves through an old style government.

It seems we are at such a junction today.

Now if you have 100 folks willing to die for a cause, you can have an impact and change a nation's politics.

How does the world adapt to this new tactic? Does it take a revolutionary change in government? Must we sacrifice of our freedoms to open up options to increase security?

Does it take a bunch of countries getting hit with this, before we all get together and decide to deal with it? Even if the entire UN was unified to stop this, "how" would we stop it?

Hate is a negative energy, it is fueled by negative acts of reprisal, just look at Israel and Palistine.

Do we want to get into some kind of global ping pong match? They hit, we hit, they hit we hit. They die, we die.

How do you negotiate with the inflexible?
How do you attack the formless?
What other options do we have than the two dead ends above?

[Drasta]

aye ... and its all caused from ... /gasp my god can beat up your god !

[Krimson Klaw]

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all have the same god. A better cheap shot would be "my prophet can beat up your prophet".

[Forthe]

What does Spain pulling out of Iraq have to do with terrorism?

[Krimson Klaw]

absolutely nothing. Other than the fact that their people did not want their troops there in the first place. They are going through a change of guard now and listening to their populace, pulling out.

[Brotha]

What does Spain pulling out of Iraq have to do with terrorism?

They're basically surrending to the terrorists, which will only embolden them. I wonder what their next demand will be- no more Jews in Spain?

I found it absolutely hilarious watching the Spanish election. Time and again they said "we're going out to vote to show the terrorists that we aren't scared" then they went and voted EXACTLY the way the terrorists wanted them to.

News flash: on 9/11 there were Al Qaeda cells in Spain already. The idea that if they hadn't participated in Iraq this wouldn't have happened is a joke. There will be more terrorists attack in Spain, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if in the end it's found out that these specific attacks were planned before the Iraq invasion even began.

[Kelshara]

Brotha you moronic idiot, the majority of the Spanish people didn't want to support the war in the first place. The government went against the wish of the people and paid for it.

[Brotha]

Brotha you moronic idiot, the majority of the Spanish people didn't want to support the war in the first place. The government went against the wish of the people and paid for it.

The Popular Party was poised to win the election DESPITE it's support for the Iraq war just days before the terrorist attacks. Clearly, the Madrid bombings swayed public opinion. Are you seriously going to argue against that?

There's also the issue of some people thinking the government lied by quickly blaming ETA and sticking with that decision for a few days despite some evidence to the contrary, but you can't deny that the sentiment throughout much of Spain was "these bombings happened because we invaded Iraq, if we pull out (IE surrender) they will stop."

[Xzion]

What does Spain pulling out of Iraq have to do with terrorism?

They're basically surrending to the terrorists, which will only embolden them. I wonder what their next demand will be- no more Jews in Spain?

I found it absolutely hilarious watching the Spanish election. Time and again they said "we're going out to vote to show the terrorists that we aren't scared" then they went and voted EXACTLY the way the terrorists wanted them to.

News flash: on 9/11 there were Al Qaeda cells in Spain already. The idea that if they hadn't participated in Iraq this wouldn't have happened is a joke. There will be more terrorists attack in Spain, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if in the end it's found out that these specific attacks were planned before the Iraq invasion even began.

go fuck yourself you stupid godamn imbread redneck

the spanish people NEVER WANTED TO BE IN IRAQ, how the fuck does a new government in which listents to the people have anything to do with "surrendering to the terrorist"?
Shit, if anything there winning the war on terror, were just making it worse by adding fuel to the fire and pissing them off more by invading an innocent country
Want to know how to win the war on terror? I will tell you, again.

Get the fuck out of the middle east and stop giving money to israel, or anyone else there for that matter

[Pherr the Dorf]

What does Spain pulling out of Iraq have to do with terrorism?

They're basically surrending to the terrorists, which will only embolden them. I wonder what their next demand will be- no more Jews in Spain?

I found it absolutely hilarious watching the Spanish election. Time and again they said "we're going out to vote to show the terrorists that we aren't scared" then they went and voted EXACTLY the way the terrorists wanted them to.

News flash: on 9/11 there were Al Qaeda cells in Spain already. The idea that if they hadn't participated in Iraq this wouldn't have happened is a joke. There will be more terrorists attack in Spain, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if in the end it's found out that these specific attacks were planned before the Iraq invasion even began.

Keep in mind, the spanish know more about terrorism then any western country besides Ireland/England imo, years and years of terrorism, they choose to think they have enough on their plate with domestic terrorists, can't say I blame em.

Edit to add: Any terrorist action of any significance is planned over a year before it is carried out, I would bet when spain opted to back the US, this plan was formed then, and executed rather brilliantly

[kyoukan]

If terrorism didn't work, the USA would still be a british colony. So yeah of course it works. It always has. It's also doing a good job of keeping the plight of the palestinian people in the minds of people all over the world. If they didn't keep carrying out suicide bombing attacks on Israelis, most people wouldn't have thought about all those poor people rotting in Israeli concentration camps.. err sorry I mean refugee camps, since Israel stole all of their land.

[Brotha]

Keep in mind, the spanish know more about terrorism then any western country besides Ireland/England imo, years and years of terrorism, they choose to think they have enough on their plate with domestic terrorists, can't say I blame em.

Edit to add: Any terrorist action of any significance is planned over a year before it is carried out, I would bet when spain opted to back the US, this plan was formed then, and executed rather brilliantly

I'll admit that the argument that going to Iraq might create terrorists and cause more harm than good has some points, although I really don't agree with that point of view.

But surely the Spanish have to see that nothing short of denouncing the US, stopping all support for the war on terror, and pulling out all it's troops from Iraq AND Afghanistan is going to stop the terrorists from attacking them.

And yeah kyoukan, terrorism is obviously working in Palestine right now. With the road map and the chance of a Palestinian State with agreeable borders basically dead, almost constant incursions by the Israeli military into Palestinian cities, houses being levelled, the majority of Palestinians living in poverty and basically being employed as volunteer marchers, and now a big ass fence dividing up the land they could have gotten...things couldn't be better.

[kyoukan]

Palestinians aren't any worse off than they were before the current or previous intifadas. The only difference is people actually know about them so Israel can't just let them rot. Eventually world pressure will come to a breaking point and Israel will be forced to give back all the old palestinian areas that the US helped them steal.

[Brotha]

Palestinians aren't any worse off than they were before the current or previous intifadas.

Not worse off than before the current intifada?

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factshe ... overty.htm

In early October 2000, Israel imposed the most severe restrictions on movement in the Occupied Palestinian Territories since the beginning of the occupation in 1967. The West Bank and Gaza Strip have been divided into several separate clusters totally isolating individual communities, especially in the south of Gaza and in rural and remote areas of the West Bank. The Israeli army controls all movement of people and goods within the Occupied Territories, between them and East Jerusalem and Israel through a dense network of military checkpoints and roadblocks. The travel and movement restrictions imposed on people and transportation has paralyzed the Palestinian economy. As a result, there has been a dramatic deterioration of living conditions in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

Unemployment has risen to 65%. Since September 2000, approximately 80,000 Palestinians have lost their jobs in Israel, while another 60,000 jobs have been lost inside the Occupied Palestinian Territories due to a decrease in demand and businesses forced to dismiss workers;1

Almost half of Palestinian households live on 50% of what their income was before the current Intifada began;2

The sharp decline in Palestinian purchasing power and interruptions in the ability to transport goods locally or to East Jerusalem and Israel has lead to the food industry producing at 60% of its capacity, whereas light industries work at less than half their capacity;3

Palestinians are forced to depend on Israeli products; the Israeli army facilitates access of Israeli products to Palestinian markets by letting Israeli products pass the checkpoints.4

An economy in crisis

The Palestinian economy began its recovery in 1998, but this process came to an abrupt end in September 2000. Largely dependant on Israel, the imposition of the extensive and prolonged closure has led the Palestinian economy into severe recession.

In the first 15 months of the current Intifada, physical damage from the conflict amounted to $305 million. Damage caused by closure and siege during the same time is estimated at $2.4 billion;5

60% of Palestinian exports have been lost and government spending is halved; before the Intifada the PA spent over $100 million a month, now it puts little more than $50 million a month into the economy;6

Since September 2000 there has been no private investment, which means that the country’s capital stock is declining;7

Direct and indirect losses for the entire economy have been estimated at somewhere between $3.5 and $10 billion. A loss of $3.5 billion means that the Palestinians have lost their Gross Domestic Product for an entire year (prior to September 2000, the Palestinian Authority GDP was almost $4 billion);8

Most of the businesses created as a result of economic cooperation between Palestinians and Israelis were shut down at the beginning of the crisis;

Average per capita real income is currently 30% below what it was in 1994 (signing of the Gaza-Jericho Agreement);9

95% of tourism and construction companies, regardless of their size, have come to a standstill. Construction, which makes up 22% of the Palestinian GDP and 80% of private Palestinian investments, is working at 15% of its capacity.10

Poverty

75 % of the Palestinian population living in the Occupied Palestinian Territories lives under the poverty line ($2 per person);11

Alarming development:
› September 2000: 600,000, or 20%, of about 3 million Palestinians lived in poverty
› End of 2002: 1.5 million, or 50%, of the population lived in poverty
› April 2002: 75% of the population lived in poverty
› By May 2002, following the Israeli large-scale invasion: 84.6 % of households in Gaza and 57.8% of households in the West Bank live below the poverty line12

58.3% of Palestinian households (of which 45% were in the West Bank and 86% in the Gaza Strip) received some form of humanitarian aid during the Intifada. 81.2% of the households are in need of assistance13

Disproportionate affect of poverty on children: due to the fact that a large proportion of the Palestinian population are children (53% of the Palestinian population is below 18 years) more than two-thirds of Palestinian children live in poverty14

The United Nations World Food Program (WFP) has launched an emergency operation to help the most impoverished Palestinians, about 500, 000 people, in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The WFP says the situation is alarming and hunger and malnutrition is increasing15

Malnutrition and Anemia:16
› 30% of children under five suffer from chronic malnutrition, 21% from acute malnutrition;
› 45% of children under five and 48% of women of childbearing age suffer from moderate to mild anemia.

More than 30% of Palestinians depend upon food handouts from NGOs and 50% of all Palestinians require external food assistance to help meet their minimum daily caloric intake.17

Destruction and damage

The latest Israeli large-scale military incursion, which started with the invasion of Ramallah and El-Bireh on the 29 March 2002 and lasted for three weeks with the re-occupation of all the Palestinian towns and cities, also had severe implications for the Palestinian economy and living conditions.

Poverty increased widely as a result of the complete shutdown in economic activity due to the extensive curfew;

The physical damage to infrastructure and property up until the invasion in late March adds up to a loss of $350 million. During one month in March and April 2002 alone, the Israeli army destroyed and looted property worth $361 million;18

To put this in context; Palestinian public investment is not more than $200 million a year. In one month, the Israeli army destroyed what the Palestinian Authority might have built in two years;19

The World Bank estimates that even if there were a political solution to the ongoing conflict and a lifting of the closure, it would take the Palestinian economy at least two years to recover to a pre-Intifada per capita income level.20

[Kelshara]

Your mother obviously dropped you on the head as a child one too many times.

- Spain lives with terrorism for a long time from ETA.
- USA gets hit once and cries like a baby.
- Spanish government sends military forces to invade a country that had nothing to do with the terrorist attack. Does it against the will of the people.
- Spain gets hit by another attack.
- Spanish government lies to it's people.
- The people gets upset and votes them out of business.
- The new government follows the opinion of the people in what is usually considered the way of a democracy.

Of course, I suppose Spain could have done what the US did and invaded Sweden or something because of the attack on them. After all, the Swedish Bikini Team is obviously a world threat!

[Sueven]

So, the Spanish leaders made decisions that the populace was opposed to. They also told lies, offending the populace. In response, the populace voted them out.

You can say that's a bad thing, but it sounds like democracy to me.

If an election had occurred a week after 9/11, I bet that Bush would have won.

[kyoukan]

Yes that is what I said; they aren't any worse off now.

[Kelshara]

Would be nice if Americans reacted against leaders who lie to them as well Between Rumsfeld, Bush and Rice.. heh... Guess they have to lie about a blowjob first!

[Brotha]

but you can't deny that the sentiment throughout much of Spain was "these bombings happened because we invaded Iraq, if we pull out (IE surrender) they will stop."

Are you trying to argue against that point, basically ignoring all of the rhetoric that's come out of Spain, including from it's leaders, or not?

Yes that is what I said; they aren't any worse off now.

Are you:

A. Insane
B. Retarded
C. Ignorant
D. Canadian
E. All of the above

[Dregor Thule]

D. Canadian

BLING$BLING

Are you the kid in the orange cap?

[Sirton]

The party in control fkd themselves over by not just saying this was done by islamic terrorist and getting in a situation looking like some sort of a cover up.

The spanish people were against the war in Iraq...The party that lost the election was going to win it till the bombings happened in Madrid.

The bombing in Madrid and the new Spanish Gov'ts reaction right after.... saying they will pull out of Iraq...DOES make every other country in the alliance in more danger of terrorist attacks. The actions will 100percent emboldin islamic terrorist to attack countries in the coalition and they will want to push those countries more to the left with persuasion from Fear...Meaning the terrorist are winning some of the battles. Spain pulling out of iraq AFTER the bombings does enbolding a terrorist, because Iraq is a islamic country and its something they can target the islamic comunity and increase some recruitment among the extreme...showing they are having some success against the west.

If you deny any of the above then your a complete idiotic moron...who has the intrest of your canidate and your moronic pride over the intrest of your country whichever side you are on.

[Brotha]

D. Canadian

BLING$BLING

Are you the kid in the orange cap?

So basically she's all of the above. Thanks for playing.

[kyoukan]

Actually I'm just a realist. I could give less of a fuck about how many of them are unemployed or what their economy is. I was obviously referring to their political situation and the fact that they are currently being oppressed.

[Brotha]

Actually you're a self-righteous hypocrite. On one hand you look at the noble cause of the oppressed Palestinians against the evil Israelis, then on the other you could careless whether Palestinians are malnourished and living in poverty ("how the economy is doing")- the fact that you can make a blanket statement like "Palestinians aren't worse off than before the intifada," then act surprised when I mention how they're actually living says a lot about how you really view things.

[kyoukan]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=context

[Brotha]

Context?

I said this, which mentions a lot more than the political situation:

And yeah kyoukan, terrorism is obviously working in Palestine right now. With the road map and the chance of a Palestinian State with agreeable borders basically dead, almost constant incursions by the Israeli military into Palestinian cities, houses being levelled, the majority of Palestinians living in poverty and basically being employed as volunteer marchers, and now a big ass fence dividing up the land they could have gotten...things couldn't be better.

And you responded with this:

Palestinians aren't any worse off than they were before the current or previous intifadas. The only difference is people actually know about them so Israel can't just let them rot. Eventually world pressure will come to a breaking point and Israel will be forced to give back all the old palestinian areas that the US helped them steal.

Then this:

I was obviously referring to their political situation and the fact that they are currently being oppressed.

How am I supposed to take that as just referring to the "political situation and they fact that they are currently being oppressed?" And that's ignoring the fact that they've been offered several agreements that would have improved things "politically" and are being "oppressed" worse now than they have been in quite sometime, ie "before the current intifada."

[Xzion]

Keep in mind, the spanish know more about terrorism then any western country besides Ireland/England imo, years and years of terrorism, they choose to think they have enough on their plate with domestic terrorists, can't say I blame em.

Edit to add: Any terrorist action of any significance is planned over a year before it is carried out, I would bet when spain opted to back the US, this plan was formed then, and executed rather brilliantly

I'll admit that the argument that going to Iraq might create terrorists and cause more harm than good has some points, although I really don't agree with that point of view.

But surely the Spanish have to see that nothing short of denouncing the US, stopping all support for the war on terror, and pulling out all it's troops from Iraq AND Afghanistan is going to stop the terrorists from attacking them.

And yeah kyoukan, terrorism is obviously working in Palestine right now. With the road map and the chance of a Palestinian State with agreeable borders basically dead, almost constant incursions by the Israeli military into Palestinian cities, houses being levelled, the majority of Palestinians living in poverty and basically being employed as volunteer marchers, and now a big ass fence dividing up the land they could have gotten...things couldn't be better.

dude, get your godamn facts right before you spew your right wing with "us or against us" nazi bullshit

spain is putting MORE troops in afghanistan

[Krurk]

I know it's Canadian so that means it is what, 80% real news?

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/03/29/world/spain040329

Point to liberal tree hugging hippies

[nobody]

It's OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS easier for other countries to but troops in afganistan. we're winning and it's OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS easier to identify who the badguy is. i'm not saying it's not a risk but the US has already done the hard part and the monentum is in our favor. frankly the UN and the great majority of the nations associated with it have no backbone and wouldn't go ANYWHERE with out the US to lead the way anyway. the UN is just a way for other countries to manipulate the US. it was formed with good intentions but so is the road to hell.

[Brotha]

Spain is sending 125 or so more troops to Afghanistan. Oh shit! Here I thought deciding to withdraw 1300 troops from Iraq right after they're attacked by terrorists would be appeasement...but now they're really giving them the middle finger!

[kyoukan]

yeah, you remember afghanistan? it is that country that osama bin laden is hiding in that you abandoned to the warlords and islamic fundies to control while you went off to fight your little oil war.

I was sure you would at least have remembered it.

[Kelshara]

Whoever Mr. Nobody is surely doesn't seem to know much about the situation in Afghanistan..

And Brotha, Spain is a perfect example of how the US had full world support for Afghanistan but got laughed at for Iraq.

[nobody]

Whoever Mr. Nobody is surely doesn't seem to know much about the situation in Afghanistan..

And Brotha, Spain is a perfect example of how the US had full world support for Afghanistan but got laughed at for Iraq.

k Dumbass, i'm only in afghanistan as we speak. maybe you should get off your ass and instead of listening to what the media feeds you get out and experience the world for yourself.

[Xzion]

hmmm who are you?
noone here likes "anon fucktards" you'll soon come to realize that

[nobody]

i should apologize, i have good reasons for remaining nameless. you guys have a great forum set up here and great opinions and discussions as well. i visit it primarily for the current events. if i'm not welcome i understand and won't intrude.

[Kelshara]

Before you call other people dumbass you should learn something about capitalization and sentence structure. I am not one to rag on that usually but it makes me laugh when people calling other people stupid while sounding like an un-educated redneck themself. Of course that might be just what you are, which would make a lot of sense really.

That said, I do get some information from a wide variety of news media in different parts of the world. But I also have talked to a couple of people who are/have been to Iraq and Afghanistan themselves, so it is a good mixture of info

[nobody]

lol, it's not a matter of being unedumacated, rather that i'm lazy to be honest. (i'm a one shake man, don't have time to shake twice). from my point of view, and i think i can see it pretty well from here, we are kicking ass in asscrackistan. i'll agree there could have been a better way to deal with Iraq but we're there and might as well finish the job we started.

[Adex_Xeda]

We're not saying you can't jump up and speak. All we ask is that you make an account, consistantly post under the same account, and if you play EQ identify character. (Not that many of us play anymore)


Guys, I'm not too concerned with the politics of Spain as I am the question of: "How do you combat terrorism?"

Terrorists today hate us because we're in Iraq. Tomorrow they'll hate us because we don't make our women wear head scarves. Tomorrow after that they'll want to blow us up because we refuse to submit to Allah.

They're going to want to kill us no matter what we do, because they hate anyone that's not exactly like them.

There is no appeasement, or negotiation.

We have to fight. HOW do we fight?

How do you have a free society, that doesn't restrict the good guys, while catching the bad guys?

Don't get me wrong, the US has disrupted numerous attempted bombings after 9/11. But sometime somewhere one is going to slip by and more families are going to get blown to pieces or poisoned.

HOW do we fight?

[Sirton]

The only problem with Spain is the timing.....The timing on the bombing the timing of there election and the timing of them stating they will pull there troops out of Iraq.....That alone will give anyone who is against Iraq war including Al'Qooky more resolve, more recruitment and more power.

I just wish Spain could of waiting till the bombing of madrid died down to even mention a pull back now it can be used against the war on terrorism.....And yes they are fighting the war on terror...But the pull back from Iraq CAN be SPUN as: look were trying to knock the westerners from our land...Weve caused one of em to retreat from some of our lands...Go out bomb the others and watch em sqirm in fear and fall to Allah's power!! The timing of it sucks for propaganda purposes.

Ok done ranting.

[nobody]

i find it ironic that the Spanish get their dark hair, eyes, skin, from the Moor's whom invaded them way back in the day trying to spread their religion by force. El Cid anyone? they haven't been appeased yet and they never will be. i honestly don't see a solution coming out of this anytime soon.

personally i see the terrorists making a mistake by taking on the whold world at one time, that was Hitler and Napolean's problem. they were doing fine until they bit off more than they could chew. it's sad that it takes everyone to realize "oh shit" and that closing their eyes and pulling their sheets over their heads hoping the boogie man won't notice them doesn't work. that was the US's problem last time we left Afghanistan. We thought the threat to US was gone and therefore not our problem anymore. that is until 9/11. Al Qaida didn't realize they had finally woken up the Sleeping Giant.

i could go on but have to go save the world.

[Arborealus]

i find it ironic that the Spanish get their dark hair, eyes, skin, from the Moor's whom invaded them way back in the day trying to spread their religion by force. El Cid anyone? they haven't been appeased yet and they never will be. i honestly don't see a solution coming out of this anytime soon.

personally i see the terrorists making a mistake by taking on the whold world at one time, that was Hitler and Napolean's problem. they were doing fine until they bit off more than they could chew. it's sad that it takes everyone to realize "oh shit" and that closing their eyes and pulling their sheets over their heads hoping the boogie man won't notice them doesn't work. that was the US's problem last time we left Afghanistan. We thought the threat to US was gone and therefore not our problem anymore. that is until 9/11. Al Qaida didn't realize they had finally woken up the Sleeping Giant.

i could go on but have to go save the world.

Errrmmm Nobody are you familiar with VV's anti-troll policy?...

No trolls allowed. If you are anon or even unknown, do not expect us to be kind. If you are anon, expect that you might get banned or have your IP address posted for the public to see. If you come here looking to start shit, please leave. We already had our pet troll; we quit feeding him and he died.

Is "Nobody" a Veeshan character?

Clearly from your posts to date you haven't regged just to start some anon shit...But, Anon trolls aren't particularly desired nor welcomed here...feel free to register with your actual character name from veeshan if you wish to be part of the VV community...

If Nobody is a Veeshan character then my apologies...

[Xzion]

i find it ironic that the Spanish get their dark hair, eyes, skin, from the Moor's whom invaded them way back in the day trying to spread their religion by force. El Cid anyone? they haven't been appeased yet and they never will be. i honestly don't see a solution coming out of this anytime soon.

personally i see the terrorists making a mistake by taking on the whold world at one time, that was Hitler and Napolean's problem. they were doing fine until they bit off more than they could chew. it's sad that it takes everyone to realize "oh shit" and that closing their eyes and pulling their sheets over their heads hoping the boogie man won't notice them doesn't work. that was the US's problem last time we left Afghanistan. We thought the threat to US was gone and therefore not our problem anymore. that is until 9/11. Al Qaida didn't realize they had finally woken up the Sleeping Giant.

i could go on but have to go save the world.

Most spaniards dont have dark hair or skin.
My dad had blond hair/ blue eyes as a kid and hes 100% spanish, i have darker skin becouse im a little cuban.
The moors only invaded southern spain/portugal/and part of france before spain was even a country. When spain united they drove the moors out pretty quickly.

Dont go spewing shit about the "weakness" of my people before you get your history streght

[Animale]

The only way to fight terrorism in my mind is to destroy the base from which they get their support (money, material, protection, "soldiers"). That base of support for Al Queda and related groups is the poor, undereducated Arab fellow who is easily swayed by religious/racial propoganda. For Northern Ireland, it was the poor, undereducated Catholic/Protestant who was easily swayed by religious/racial propoganda. For U.S. domestic terrorists (read Oklahoma bombing folks, Atlanta Bombing guy, etc.), that base of support is the poor, undereducated white fellow who is easily swayed by religious racial/propoganda.

So how does this base get taken out? Basically you have to take away the environment wher terrorism is accepted. The primary methods of this war should be education, economic uplift, and recognition of policies that serve as "hot" issues in the particular area of interest, not military intervention. All military intervention often does is serve to galvanize the populution TOWARD sympathizing with terrorists (see Israel/Palestine, Northern Ireland, or Basque Spain for examples of this). While exceptions exist to this supposition (Afghanistan being the most likely example of this) the military intervention there was on the behest of an internal group, and had a large level of support worldwide to help out on the first three, main issues of anti-terrorist work.

In short, the war on terrorism is not a war as we currently understand it... in that it is largely a law enforcing action domestically while being a policy/aid action internationally. Flexing military muscle won't solve it, but will in fact make it worse in the long run. Thus, the dilemna for those in charge: aid and policy are the stuff of CSpan, while smart bombs down some "evildoers" chimney makes for great primetime drama.

Animale

[nobody]

again i apoplogize, i don't have a character and no i didn't read the anon policy. like i said it wasn't my intention to intrude rather i had found a unique board and seeing as how there isn't much to do in the desert for entertainment i figured i'd enjoy some political discussions. i don't blame you for wanting to keep this to a Veeshan thing but as much as i'd like to be playing EQ it'd not an option at the moment. if i'm not welcome then oh well. sorry if i don't reveal myself but since i don't play EQ (my friends do) you wouldn't know me anyway.

i don't know where i said anything about the Spaniards being weak for kicking out the Moors. i apologize if my statement was viewed as stereotyping

i agree we need to go after their financing but even if they didn't have a dime in their pocket their ideology would still be the same. all they know is hatred and violence. part of what is working in Afghanistan is winning the hearts and minds. i can't tell you what it's like to go through the streets of Kabul and see the kids so excited to see Americans and how it makes their day to get a simple bottle of water. funny thing is they dump the water out as it's the bottle their excited about. lol.
reminds me how spoiled i am


anyway, i won't post anymore.

[Sueven]

I don't see why you shouldn't post here. Who cares if you play EQ or not? As long as you keep identifying yourself as "nobody," then I don't understand why it'd matter.

[Xzion]

I don't see why you shouldn't post here. Who cares if you play EQ or not? As long as you keep identifying yourself as "nobody," then I don't understand why it'd matter.

As long as you identify yourself as "nobody" its all good.
We keep scaring off the conservatives so its good to have someone new to pick on

[Arborealus]

again i apoplogize, i don't have a character and no i didn't read the anon policy. like i said it wasn't my intention to intrude rather i had found a unique board and seeing as how there isn't much to do in the desert for entertainment i figured i'd enjoy some political discussions. i don't blame you for wanting to keep this to a Veeshan thing but as much as i'd like to be playing EQ it'd not an option at the moment. if i'm not welcome then oh well. sorry if i don't reveal myself but since i don't play EQ (my friends do) you wouldn't know me anyway.

anyway, i won't post anymore.

I'm not an admin or mod...just pointing out the policy...And as I said you didn't come in using anonymity as a tact for ball-less flaming...I have no objections in principle to anyone joining in on teh lovefest...Just wondering how the hell someone would get to VV out of the blue and why the hell anyone woulda wanna stay if they hadn't known all these people for years......

[Brotha]

The way to defeat terrorism is to lob a few cruise missles, retreat whenever possible, and be nice. But if Bush had done this I'm sure five years from now when his counter-terror chief suggested he had taken the problem of terrorism very seriously and made it a top priority he would be laughed off the air

Edit: I'm sort of an off and on poster myself, but I agree that if "nobody" wants to post in current events and isn't trolling there's nothing wrong with it.

[Mak]

I think that, in one aspect, we fight terrorism the same way we fought communism: McDonald's, internet, music, and Friends.

Give Arab youths the opportunity to experience our culture. It's what the fanatical religious leaders are so vociferously against, because they in know that, in a very real way, these things can exhert more influence over the people than they can. There will always be radicals that reject such things, but young poeple generally want to be entertained, be it video games, television, or music. Nothing provides entertainment more than the "decadent West".

As more and more Middle Eastern people become exposed to something other than radical religious zealotry, they'll be less and less inclined to support it. As that support dries up, so does it's power.

[Arborealus]

I think that, in one aspect, we fight terrorism the same way we fought communism: McDonald's.

I'm pretty sure that's against the geneva convention...