Assisted Suicide: For or against?

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » March 19, 2004, 2:27 pm

Came up durring a rather morbid conversation last night, but being th ecurious person I am, I'm interested to know what you guys think about it.

So - for, for (with special circumstances), against (non religious reasons), against (religious reasons)?

Post away..

Spankes · Post by **Spankes** » March 19, 2004, 2:29 pm

Fine with me if someone wants to die, who and I to decide what they can and can't do with their life. Though, I am a bigger fan of it if someone is at a painful end stage of a debilitating disease.

Nilaman · Post by **Nilaman** » March 19, 2004, 2:32 pm

I am all for it. If someone is elderly and has lost all their friends and or loved ones and is lonely and ready to go then fine. Or if someone is is slowly dying from some disease, or perhaps even give criples the option.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 19, 2004, 2:34 pm

For...

If a person in their majority and of sound mind wishes to die...I see no reason that assistance shouldn't be available to them...I would think there should be a mandatory waiting period (overidable only in extenuating circumstances)...

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 19, 2004, 2:41 pm

Not just assisted, encouraged for some.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 19, 2004, 3:03 pm

Not just encouraged, but mandatory. You should have to pass a test every 5 years to make sure you aren't a fucking moron. If you fail it then you get strapped into the Kevorkenator. I call it Atokal's Law.

Seebs · Post by **Seebs** » March 19, 2004, 3:31 pm

I'd like to put my name down as the person that would assist in some cases.

i get to pick the method as well ...

sweetkastings · Post by **sweetkastings** » March 19, 2004, 3:35 pm

im for i dont know why but i am

Jarori Bloodletter · Post by **Jarori Bloodletter** » March 19, 2004, 3:39 pm

For (Special circumstances )

If I had to watch my mom suffer thru yr after yr of painful suffering and SHE wanted it..etc stuff like that

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 19, 2004, 4:25 pm

i'm for it

example: in your case i'm willing to help

Deward · Post by **Deward** » March 19, 2004, 4:34 pm

I am watching my mother-in-law slowly be destroyed by Alzheimers. SHe is only 56 years old. When she was diagnosed, she stated that she wished she could end things before they got too bad. Now she has no idea who anyone is and we had to put her in a special home last year.

I agre that anyone should be able to do what they want to. BUT they need to be in a sound state of mind to make the decision. A depressed guy who just broke up with his girlfriend should not be allowed to go into a McEuthansia and order a quicky needle death. There should be a waiting period and required doctor's permission.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » March 19, 2004, 4:44 pm

kyoukan wrote:Not just encouraged, but mandatory. You should have to pass a test every 5 years to make sure you aren't a fucking moron. If you fail it then you get strapped into the Kevorkenator. I call it Atokal's Law.

Ah Hell nice knowing ya Kyoukan.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » March 19, 2004, 6:27 pm

sure send them out into the ice like the eskimo's used too...
start with cartalas^^

Legenae · Post by **Legenae** » March 19, 2004, 7:51 pm

For (special circumstances).

If the person is already dying and in great pain, it's actually cruel to force them to stay alive and suffer. People who love their pets enough can put them to sleep when they are too sick and dying, so why can't we do it for the people we love as well?

Lor · Post by **Lor** » March 19, 2004, 8:32 pm

For (special circumstances).

Deward said it best.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » March 19, 2004, 9:35 pm

If you wanna die jump off a fucking building, the way i see it you'll have a fun ride until you hit the bottom. That or rent a jet ski or a motorcycle and do some crazy ass stunt, hell if worst came to worst, thats how i would like to do down.

Personally for whatever reason i think anyone who wants to commit suicide is a fucking moron, and if they really wanna go for it, it just cleans out the gene pool. Even if someones dieing of cancer, have the balls to stay the course, or at least i would.

Drolgin Steingrinder · Post by **Drolgin Steingrinder** » March 19, 2004, 9:52 pm

Xzion wrote:Personally for whatever reason i think anyone who wants to commit suicide is a fucking moron, and if they really wanna go for it, it just cleans out the gene pool. Even if someones dieing of cancer, have the balls to stay the course, or at least i would.

Clearly you don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » March 20, 2004, 12:57 am

Actually, I'm sure I would trade my balls for the end of a pain that had lasted for 2 years Xzion. Until you've lived with a condition that makes evey day filled with pain and agony, and every moment seems like an eternity, then stating that a person is a coward for seeking an end to the pain is a statement filled with ignorance. I work with the elderly, going on two years now. These are people who live in pain every day, whether it is muscle aches or unusable body parts. I have a resident who was poisoned in World War 2 and who nows has trouble getting around from his apartment to the dining room to eat. He told me once, in a moment of extreme angst, that he knows God has a plan and all, but he wished He would hurry it along. This is a man who is secure in his faith. I'm sure that if God put a little clause at the end of his "Suicide Clause 001-Thou Shalt Not Do It Except When in Constant Pain and Suffering", then my resident would have sought it long ago. This is also a man who snuck into the Baton Death March (sp?) 117 times to retrieve prisoners of war from the Japaneese. Go ahead and lecture him on having no balls for wishing an end to the pain. If you can get through six seconds of trying to speak to him without faltering and worshipping this man for his courage and extreme-ball-size, then I salute you. I could not do it.

That said, assisted suicide is fine in medical cases, debilitating conditions, constant pain, etc. I like to think that there is always a method to help someone who feels like suicide, but in medical cases with no hope, I'd like to help them reach whatever afterlife they believe in.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » March 20, 2004, 11:15 am

I guess my wording wasnt that great, i was mainly speaking about depressed teenagers or middle-aged people with an illness thats potentially overcomable, if theres any hope whatsoever, you should have no reason to end your life. I cant say i have ever been threw such an unbareable pain or know anyone that has for that manner.
The elderly are a seperate issue.

Although i do believe anyone that wants to commit suicide has the right to do so, but personally (discarding the elderly) i wont think to highly of them

Tegellan · Post by **Tegellan** » March 20, 2004, 12:19 pm

I think it should be an option gfor people with incurable and very painful or mind damaging illneses. If 2 independent doctors both say that there is no way this will get better, then it should be an option.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » March 20, 2004, 12:46 pm

Against (Religious Reasons)

I admit I am not the most religious person. I go to my wifes church on the big holidays or special occasions but other than that I'd just as soon stay home and watch something on tv. I was brought up Baptist. Basically that means we don't hire someone to read the bible to us and serve crackers and booze, we had to read the bible ourselves and contribute during church.

The one thing that has always been remembered is that Suicide is the one Unforgivable Sin. The only one. God gave you your life and if you throw it back at him then he gets pissed and damns you to hell. (imagine the excitement that would go on in a Baptist church) That is why I can't agree to Suicide, assisted or otherwise.

Just my belief.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » March 20, 2004, 1:58 pm

I understand where you are coming from, Bubba. My problem with religion has always been the damnable certainly of some of it's followers that "God has a plan." When it comes to situations like this, where we have a potentially debilitated person who will sit in a bed the rest of their life in extreme agony, and they will last for a good 1-2 years, what kind of plan is that? The rigid black and white certainties of the bible, such as no murder, no suicide make me angry. I don't like the idea of a being I've never met telling my ancestors 3000 years ago that they can't commit suicide because it's wrong, and then having to watch my friends and residents waste away. It just seems senseless.
There I go, ranting against "The Plan" again. I'm not attacking your position, Bubba, I certainly agree with you on the suicide issue in that it should be discouraged at all costs. But I still think that making people endure unending pain because of this statute in the Bible causes more harm than it solves.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 20, 2004, 3:41 pm

Xzion wrote:I guess my wording wasnt that great, i was mainly speaking about depressed teenagers or middle-aged people with an illness thats potentially overcomable, if theres any hope whatsoever, you should have no reason to end your life.

We're discussing people that are on life support or in extreme pain daily, not people that are just depressed because they "think" their life sucks.

My fathers best friend fell a year and a half ago and broke his neck. He was in his 60's. He was on life support unable to move or speak. The best he could do was move his eyes around sometimes on a good day and blink to acknowledge visitors. He was in this state for one year. His daughter, after a few attempts, was able to get him to answer the question, through blinking, if taking him off life support would be his desire. He said yes. They did just that and he actually lived for another 3 or 4 days until he died.

You can imagine the emotional trauma of that entire year on his wife, daughter and friends. I don't think I need to mention what intensive care/life support costs for a year whether it's picked up by insurance or not, someone's paying it.

For individuals that are in obvious pain, incapacitated with no cures available, it's inhumane to keep them alive if their wish is to end their life.

This is yet another reason religion sickens me. Keep religious beliefs out of common sense decisions. It comes down to the individual person's choice and fuck religious beliefs as they play no part in an antheists life or anyone's life that wishes to terminate due to severe medical conditions.

Drolgin Steingrinder · Post by **Drolgin Steingrinder** » March 20, 2004, 5:36 pm

I completely agree that ennui is insufficient grounds to commit suicide; and yes, committing suicide because the cute varsity footballer won't go out with you or because your mom won't let you play your music real loud is weaksauce, very weaksauce.

Without going into too many details I'll just say that despite that, there are times when assisted suicide is one hell of a blessing.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 20, 2004, 5:58 pm

Bubba Grizz wrote: The one thing that has always been remembered is that Suicide is the one Unforgivable Sin. The only one .

Errrm think that's mostly Kierkegaard's idea..

Bubba Grizz wrote: God gave you your life and if you throw it back at him then he gets pissed and damns you to hell. (imagine the excitement that would go on in a Baptist church) That is why I can't agree to Suicide, assisted or otherwise. Just my belief.

Exactly...it's your belief...not mine. Why is it that your belief should take legal precedence over mine?

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » March 20, 2004, 7:12 pm

We're discussing people that are on life support or in extreme pain daily, not people that are just depressed because they "think" their life sucks.

Not at all true. You're discussing "assisted suicide," as per the post title and content of the question. If you want to define that more narrowly for the purposes of your discussion, then do it.

Now cleary some distinctions need to be made between different cases of euthanasia. Some people claim that an active/passive (or acts/omissions) disctinction exists, and there is a significant moral difference between, say, withholding life-saving medical treatment and actively killing the same person in the same situation. I don't agree that this distinction is relevant at all.

Then there is the question of active will. Does the person being killed need to consent? Do they need to be of sound mind? What if they are incapable of making a decision, due to mental defect, coma, disease, senility, or whatever? Does it matter if they ever were of sound mind, or if they ever will be of sound mind?

Personally, I wholeheartedly support voluntary euthanasia. The right to life is a fictitious construct that has never been particularly respected or revered in any society in human memory, including our own. Claiming that this right is not waivable is absurd. We've been allowing this right to be waived, both willingly and nonwillingly, forever.

I also support charitable euthanasia in circumstances where desire is irrelevant, as outlined above. Provided that our motives are genuinely altruistic, there is nothing wrong with making a life or death decision for a non rational agent. There is nothing inherent in being human that requires us to respect and protect life to the highest degree possible, even when death is a preferable outcome. The right to have our lives protected is granted by our rationality and consciousness, not our species classification.

I have no solidly formed opinion on involuntary euthanasia.

It's a very complex issue.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 20, 2004, 11:13 pm

Sueven wrote:
We're discussing people that are on life support or in extreme pain daily, not people that are just depressed because they "think" their life sucks.
Not at all true. You're discussing "assisted suicide," as per the post title and content of the question. If you want to define that more narrowly for the purposes of your discussion, then do it.

You are correct. I should have specified special circumstances.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » March 21, 2004, 12:18 am

Arborealus wrote:
Bubba Grizz wrote: God gave you your life and if you throw it back at him then he gets pissed and damns you to hell. (imagine the excitement that would go on in a Baptist church) That is why I can't agree to Suicide, assisted or otherwise. Just my belief.
Exactly...it's your belief...not mine. Why is it that your belief should take legal precedence over mine?

I would never try to enforce my beliefs on anyone. I can't. I am married and no longer have that ability. I know you aren't singling me out. I guess it all comes down to the legal system and how they deal with it. I was going to say that we can't change the way things are but in truth we can by voting and petitioning and writing the congressmen. (when I say "we" in this case I mean all of you who don't think the same as I do)

Once again, just my beliefs. I suppose if I had to put myself in that situation I would be in a fix but I can't even imagine it.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 21, 2004, 4:01 am

Sueven wrote: I have no solidly formed opinion on involuntary euthanasia.

It's a very complex issue.

Involuntary euthanasia?...

...I think consent is a pretty critical element in determining if it is euthanasia...

...

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » March 21, 2004, 5:46 pm

Well yeah, that's the common reason for rejecting it. It's basically murder for charitable motives.

Example: You're in a war, behind enemy lines. The enemy you are fighting is notorious for capturing and torturing POW's brutally. You're in a high risk area, where staying still will mean certain capture and torture. One of your fellow soldiers broke both of his legs somehow. You can't take him with you. You offer him a bullet, but he refuses.

Shooting him would be involuntary euthanasia (or murder, depending on how you look at it).

Let's say you know that the enemy is scheduled to patrol through the area in six hours. This injured soldier will die within four hours if you don't give him certain valuable, life-saving drugs. If you do give him the drugs, he will survive until he is captured and tortured. If you don't, he'll die in four hours before he would be captured.

Refusing to give him the drugs would be passive involuntary euthanasia (again, or murder).

Cases where the term could be applied are very rare and, I would imagine, mostly theoretical.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 21, 2004, 6:40 pm

We haven't had a word of the week in awhile. Euthanasia would have been a good one.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » March 21, 2004, 9:50 pm

I volunteer to chair the committee to recommend and approve all your suicides.

Don't laugh, someone will need to do it.

Go ahead Kooky, feel free to get that application submitted right away...

Rhetorically speaking... who would you feel you could trust to make the decision that YOU should be "helped" into death? You got any organs they can harvest? Insurance money on the line? Investments to manage?

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » March 21, 2004, 10:41 pm

Metanis: Do you support voluntary euthanasia?

People I trust to make that decision: My parents, my sister, my grandmother, or my few closest friends in consultation with a medical professional.

Frankly, odds are if I'm in a situation where someone else has to make a decision about whether it would be better for me to live or die, I would rather die.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 21, 2004, 10:52 pm

There are several people here that I'd assist in their suicides!

Lynxe · Post by **Lynxe** » March 22, 2004, 10:01 am

For (Special circumstances - elaborate)

My Great Aunt decided to stop going treatment and die. I don't think of that as "killing yourself" but instead just allowing nature to carry on where humans would otherwise interfere. If she had wanted help, I'd have supported her decision. However, people who want to die for anything other than intolerable physical pain/suffering need help, not death.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » March 22, 2004, 1:36 pm

For (Special circumstances - elaborate)

I like some others, have had this impact my life in a personal fashion. My maternal grandfather died after a long illness, in which life support, etc could have kept him alive longer, but it was not his wish. He said that when he could no longer stay concious and alive on his own, he did not want a machine keeping him around. This did not violate the laws of the Catholic Church, of which he was a member (they are the ones who used to refuse burial on holy ground to suicides as they consider it a Mortal Sin or some such). I have had other relatives die of cancer, with the same wishes and to be honest I share this sentiment myself: life, to me, is something in which you can contribute something meaingful to society, your family, yourself... not being kept alive artificially. If they need to do it a bit to harvest some organs, then so be it, but not for any other reason.

Where I really start to struggle with assisted suicide, in regard to terminally ill people, is when to do it. For example, if you know that you have 9 months to live and the last 3 will be in excrutiating pain, should a person who wishes to have it end be responsible for taking the action on their own, while they still have the ability? Why put the onus on someone else for ending your pain, if you know it is coming? Its a difficult issue but in some ways asking for an assisted suicide seems a tad selfish to me, because you are asking someone else to shoulder the burden of your death.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 22, 2004, 2:28 pm

Wulfran wrote:should a person who wishes to have it end be responsible for taking the action on their own, while they still have the ability? Why put the onus on someone else for ending your pain, if you know it is coming? Its a difficult issue but in some ways asking for an assisted suicide seems a tad selfish to me, because you are asking someone else to shoulder the burden of your death.

Well, but even at that point they may require the assistance of a physician in obtaining the drugs to commit suicide (at least in the states)...And the expertise of the physician in determining what combinations of meds to take in what order to insure 1) painlessness, 2)lethality as opposed to just massive damage, 3)that the vomit reflex does not kick in and cause #2...

VeeshanVault

Assisted Suicide: For or against?

Assisted Suicide: For or Against?

Assisted Suicide: For or against?