The begining of the end for the Catholic Church?

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 11, 2004, 7:11 am

One can only hope. And if they keep going the way they are, there is a good chance, at least in America, it will end up bankrupt.

http://www.jjay.cuny.edu/churchstudy/main.asp

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » March 11, 2004, 8:48 am

most Churches are kept alive by the fanatics, and if things REALLY get that bad for the catholic church, they could break off a little peice of the sistine chapel and sell it for 19 billion

Siji · Post by **Siji** » March 11, 2004, 9:24 am

Put enough self-riteous uppity white men in anything and it will become corrupt after enough time. Just look at the government, let alone religion.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 11, 2004, 9:36 am

I don't mean it as mearly a matter of "hey look a those bad bishops" nor do I hope Catholics will suddenly realize they are supporting by far the most destructive and evil force on the planet (I mean really, if the Crusades and Inquisition can't make Catholics face that fact, a little sexual molestation of minors certainly won't). That report reads to me as a blueprint for financial ruin over the long term. Seriously, how long do you suppose the sheep will pay their tithings when it is all going to pay off law suits? I think there is a real chance here that the Church is done.

Deward · Post by **Deward** » March 11, 2004, 11:54 am

As long as there are stupid, illiterate people in the world, there will be organized religion. (flame on)

Seriously, I only looked at a brief bit of that report and 500 million dollars is not going to break the catholic church. I am guessing they have billions sitting in the vatican accounts. I do believe that the Catholic church is losing a lot of steam in America though. If things get too bad then they could just sell a few unused cathedrals or nunnerys. There won't be any nuns in another decade or two. Last I heard the average age of a nun was well over 60 years old.

Anyone know how many members there are in the catholic church. Last I heard it was something like 750 million worldwide.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » March 11, 2004, 12:48 pm

The more civilised the country, the less religious its populace

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » March 11, 2004, 1:32 pm

The Catholic Church will not go away as long as there are homos to persecute.

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » March 11, 2004, 1:36 pm

the one catholic priest i know doesn't even have health insurance at this point. the lawsuits have completely drained their budget.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 11, 2004, 1:42 pm

I dont agree with these lawsuits. I think the people who committed these acts of sex with children should be jailed for life and the people who aided in covering this stuff up should be jailed.

I don't agree with suing the church. It's the individuals who are committing crimes. The individuals should pay.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 11, 2004, 1:46 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I dont agree with these lawsuits. I think the people who committed these acts of sex with children should be jailed for life and the people who aided in covering this stuff up should be jailed.

I don't agree with suing the church. It's the individuals who are committing crimes. The individuals should pay.

Totally and completely disagree. The priests are the responsibility of the church. They've been trained by the church, been given the go by the church, and are placed by the church in a position within a community that is supposed to be one of complete trust. Yes, of course jail time is a given, but the victims have every right to seek restitution from the church over legitimate violations.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 11, 2004, 1:59 pm

Especially given the practice of the Church to simply relocate priests against whom accusations have been made. Basically the Church settles with complainants, then send the molesting Priest off to another church. You really could not have a more blameworthy actor.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 11, 2004, 2:12 pm

The neighborhood shoud be notified whenever a new priest arrives with a probability for molestation report attached.

Father Bling
boys 5-10 15%
boys 11-16 25%
boys 17- 5%

Please dress your kids appropriately to not temp the priest.

Priest will be relocated after the 5th complaint or when legal defense fees have exceeded 50,000.00.

Donation form attached. All major credit cards accepted.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » March 11, 2004, 2:57 pm

Aaeamdar wrote:I don't mean it as mearly a matter of "hey look a those bad bishops" nor do I hope Catholics will suddenly realize they are supporting by far the most destructive and evil force on the planet (I mean really, if the Crusades and Inquisition can't make Catholics face that fact, a little sexual molestation of minors certainly won't). That report reads to me as a blueprint for financial ruin over the long term. Seriously, how long do you suppose the sheep will pay their tithings when it is all going to pay off law suits? I think there is a real chance here that the Church is done.

I think the Catholic Church should just remove the homosexual pedofiles from their midst.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » March 11, 2004, 2:58 pm

Atokal wrote:
Aaeamdar wrote:I don't mean it as mearly a matter of "hey look a those bad bishops" nor do I hope Catholics will suddenly realize they are supporting by far the most destructive and evil force on the planet (I mean really, if the Crusades and Inquisition can't make Catholics face that fact, a little sexual molestation of minors certainly won't). That report reads to me as a blueprint for financial ruin over the long term. Seriously, how long do you suppose the sheep will pay their tithings when it is all going to pay off law suits? I think there is a real chance here that the Church is done.
I think the Catholic Church should just remove the homosexual pedofiles from their midst.

BUT WHERE WILL YOU FIND WORK????

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » March 11, 2004, 3:09 pm

Lalanae wrote:
Atokal wrote:
Aaeamdar wrote:I don't mean it as mearly a matter of "hey look a those bad bishops" nor do I hope Catholics will suddenly realize they are supporting by far the most destructive and evil force on the planet (I mean really, if the Crusades and Inquisition can't make Catholics face that fact, a little sexual molestation of minors certainly won't). That report reads to me as a blueprint for financial ruin over the long term. Seriously, how long do you suppose the sheep will pay their tithings when it is all going to pay off law suits? I think there is a real chance here that the Church is done.
I think the Catholic Church should just remove the homosexual pedofiles from their midst.
BUT WHERE WILL YOU FIND WORK????

Wow, now that was funny as hell. Caps even. I suppose I could become a transvestite like you and share your street corner?

Cheers

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » March 11, 2004, 3:15 pm

Atokal wrote:
Lalanae wrote:
Atokal wrote:
Aaeamdar wrote:I don't mean it as mearly a matter of "hey look a those bad bishops" nor do I hope Catholics will suddenly realize they are supporting by far the most destructive and evil force on the planet (I mean really, if the Crusades and Inquisition can't make Catholics face that fact, a little sexual molestation of minors certainly won't). That report reads to me as a blueprint for financial ruin over the long term. Seriously, how long do you suppose the sheep will pay their tithings when it is all going to pay off law suits? I think there is a real chance here that the Church is done.
I think the Catholic Church should just remove the homosexual pedofiles from their midst.
BUT WHERE WILL YOU FIND WORK????
Wow, now that was funny as hell. Caps even. I suppose I could become a transvestite like you and share your street corner?

Cheers

No, as a little guy, you'd steal my business.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » March 11, 2004, 4:36 pm

Judging a millions strong group based upon their worst case subset has questionable value.

Other factors should be considered.

The choice to "hate" something or someone should not be the product of casual reasoning.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 11, 2004, 4:45 pm

couple things: think the Catholic Church is one of the largest real estate owners on the planet. so they aren't really going bankrupt ever.

secondly, i think the Church is totally in a position to be sued. And SHOULD be sued for the role it played in covering up these molestation cases. Priests were shipped from parish to parish to avoid legal ramifications and it was not disclosed to the new parishes that they were sex offenders, thus the church knowingly was putting more children in harm's way.

This is a problem that goes to the highest levels of the organizational culture, and it is not simply individual pedophile priests who are the sum total of the problem.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 11, 2004, 5:03 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Judging a millions strong group based upon their worst case subset has questionable value.

Other factors should be considered.

The choice to "hate" something or someone should not be the product of casual reasoning.

Do you have any other emotion other than what I can only describe as an ether-induced state of euphoria?

Anyways, here's the John Jay Survey, a study done by the catholic church on the abuse problems in the United States. Take note... it was done by the church, edited by the church, verified by the church, and not validated by anyone outside the church. Take that for what value you will.

John Jay College of Criminal Justice

The City University of New York
899 Tenth Ave., New York, N.Y., 10019
(212) 237-8628 Fax (212) 237-8610

Office of Public Relations
Jerry Capeci, Director of Communications

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

2/27/2004, 9:31:00 AM

February 27, 2004 – John Jay College today released the results of the first-ever, national study of child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church at a news conference at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C.

The study, based on survey responses from 97 percent of dioceses (195 dioceses) and from 142 religious communities, representing approximately 80 percent of religious priests across the country, found that the total number of priests with allegations of abuse was 4,392, representing approximately 4 percent of all priests in ministry between 1950-2002. That same rate was consistent regardless of the region or the sizes of the dioceses.

Titled the “Nature And Scope Of Sexual Abuse Of Minors By Catholic Priests And Deacons In The United States, 1950-2002,” the study was authorized and paid for by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB), pursuant to the Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People promulgated at their June 2002 meeting in Dallas, Texas.

The majority of priests (56%) were alleged to have abused one victim. One hundred forty-nine priests (3.5%), those who allegedly had ten or more victims, accounted for 27% of all allegations of sexual abuse by priests.

The number of individuals who were specifically identified as having made allegations of abuse against priests was 10,667. Overall, 81% of victims were male and 19% were female. There were more alleged male victims between the ages of 11 and 14 than in any other age/gender group (40%).

The years for which the largest number of allegations were made were the 1970’s. However, given the lag-time typically found in reporting of child abuse it is likely additional victims will come forward.

Eighty-six percent of the dioceses and religious communities provided information about Church expenditures related to child sexual abuse. According to the survey, the amount of money paid out for victim compensation, for treatment of victims and priests, and for legal expenses was $572,000,000. This total does not include a recently reported settlement of $85,000,000, nor amounts that might have been paid out since the collection of the data was completed.

Among other things, the Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People mandated that John Jay conduct a descriptive study and collect information about the priests against whom allegations were made and about the characteristics of the alleged victims. The Charter also asked John Jay to accumulate information about the financial impact of the abuse on the Church. The report released today is a response to that mandate.

To collect this information, dioceses, eparchies and religious communities were asked to complete three separate survey instruments with detailed information from their existing files and records for each and every priest who had been named in a complaint or allegation of sexual abuse of a minor. Extensive measures were taken to ensure that any priest alleged to have committed an act of sexual abuse against a minor, or any minor who made an allegation of abuse, could not be identified.

Gerald W. Lynch, President of John Jay College, said that the College was honored to have been asked by the USCCB to undertake this important study.

“The College had a civic obligation to use its resources and academic talent to help provide facts about the sexual abuse phenomenon which has been such a sad chapter in the history of the Catholic Church. The College hopes that this accounting will assist the Catholic Church in its efforts to understand the causes and context of the problem and the development of policies and practices that will prevent victimization of children in the future. We also encourage other institutions to engage in such studies to provide a better understanding of the problem of child sexual abuse.”

The entire study is available online at the John Jay College website at: http://www.jjay.cuny.edu/churchstudy/,
the USCCB website at: http://www.usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/,
and The Catholic Review Board at: http://www.catholicreviewboard.com.

Due to widespread interest in the study, internet access may be slow. We ask that those trying to obtain access to the report on the web to please be patient.

Now if you think 4% of all priests between 1950-2002 is a small number (That's 4, 392 priests!) then I'll just stop now. It's not some anomally, some minor infraction that a few bad seeds are involved in. That's a lot of fucking priests. Of course I don't think all priests are evil child molestors, that would be absurd. Anyways, just some food for thought.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 11, 2004, 5:16 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Judging a millions strong group based upon their worst case subset has questionable value.

Other factors should be considered.

The choice to "hate" something or someone should not be the product of casual reasoning.

Right like judging the organization based upon it's response to those worst cases...The priests in question were not largely defrocked...Families of offended children were encouraged (coerced) to remain silent.. The priests were replaced in situations where they would have further opportunities to offend...What other factors would you care to consider? I'm not indicting Catholics...I will indict their church...

What exactly is casual reasoning?

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » March 11, 2004, 5:29 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I dont agree with these lawsuits. I think the people who committed these acts of sex with children should be jailed for life and the people who aided in covering this stuff up should be jailed.

I don't agree with suing the church. It's the individuals who are committing crimes. The individuals should pay.

While it may be the individuals committing the sex crimes, the church has committed crimes as well - negligence, endangerment, etc. While the individuals should pay for their crime, business (the church) is certainly not fault-free and should pay for it's crimes as well.

And I would hold this stand for any organization.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 11, 2004, 5:32 pm

I'm not indicting Catholics...I will indict their church...

Why not? I never really understood this reasoning. I mean, sure, the Church hid this from its (so aptly named) "flock" for decades. So, yeah. Don't hold them accountable for what they did not know. But its all out now. I mean, if I were giving a bunch of money and supporting an organization that I KNEW was involved in the intentional sexual molestation of children and coverup of the same, I would damn well expect people to judge me on my continued participation and funding of that organization. To me the exceptions people make for other people's behavior because "it's religion" is simply absurd.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 11, 2004, 5:47 pm

Aaeamdar wrote:
I'm not indicting Catholics...I will indict their church...
Why not? I never really understood this reasoning. I mean, sure, the Church hid this from its (so aptly named) "flock" for decades. So, yeah. Don't hold them accountable for what they did not know. But its all out now. I mean, if I were giving a bunch of money and supporting an organization that I KNEW was involved in the intentional sexual molestation of children and coverup of the same, I would damn well expect people to judge me on my continued participation and funding of that organization. To me the exceptions people make for other people's behavior because "it's religion" is simply absurd.

So by extension, we should sue stockholders for the actions of corporations in which they hold stock?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 11, 2004, 5:55 pm

What I think some of you are forgetting is the Church doesn't preach molestation. It was a small percentage of priests who commited these acts. 4% some has said I believe.

The reason the Church move priests around was to protect itself yes, but also because they forgive. I mean this isn't just a Corporation like ummm Nike or something, whos business is selling shoes. The Church's business is selling love, forgiveness, repentance, etc.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 11, 2004, 5:56 pm

Morally, not legally, acountable. When you said indict, I may have misread it as morally. If you meant you would not hold Catholics legally responsible, then yes, we agree.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 11, 2004, 5:57 pm

no but stockholders lose money when a corporation is sued.

no need to sue them directly, market forces take care of the rest.

Microsoft would be trading a lot higher right now if it was not for pending litigation against them.

but to the point about suing Catholics themselves, no that is silliness. However, if they are tithing, I hope they can reconcile the fact that they are and/or have been supporting this sort of behavior through their contributions.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 11, 2004, 6:10 pm

Aaeamdar wrote:Morally, not legally, acountable. When you said indict, I may have misread it as morally. If you meant you would not hold Catholics legally responsible, then yes, we agree.

Yes sorry I am not moral at all...

...While I would question an individual as to why they would continue to financially support criminal activity, I would not question their actual belief systems, at least those which have no bearing on the issue at point.

I really think the basic problem is allowing people to abstract or proxy their accountability period.

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » March 11, 2004, 6:29 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:What I think some of you are forgetting is the Church doesn't preach molestation. It was a small percentage of priests who commited these acts. 4% some has said I believe.

Correct my math if it's wrong - it has been awhile.. but 4% is roughly 1 out of every 25 . That's not what I would consider a small percentage. If these were teachers, the 4% would stand out even moreso.

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:The reason the Church move priests around was to protect itself yes, but also because they forgive. I mean this isn't just a Corporation like ummm Nike or something, whos business is selling shoes. The Church's business is selling love, forgiveness, repentance, etc.

"Forgiveness" is not a good enough reason to cover-up a crime. The individuals, as well as the institution for aiding them, should be legally accountable. It is not the place of the church to "legally" declare someone unaccountable for their crimes. And paying penance, and restitution, are hardly unfamilar terms to catholics. And while their product may be different in nature than Nike and shoes, the Catholic Church is just as much of a business as is Nike.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » March 11, 2004, 6:39 pm

If you reject the validity of the christain faith, why hold a Catholic priest to a higher standard than any other group in society?

I have cause to hold them to a higher standard, of which they horribly failed. But secular folk just see it as a way to tear at a group that disagrees with a secular lifestyle.

Instead of being rightfully upset over horrendous acts, many secular people get all happy that they now have a chance to trash a group they hate. How cheap.

But to those of you who have honest concerns I'll share with you what's really on my mind.

They look a large group over 50 years and tabulated the percentage of sexual abuse instances.

Percentagewise how does this compare to the American populace in general in the last 50 years?

Is it a great percentage? Are these molesters a predictable occurance in a large population of priests or is there somthing special to the priest culture that pushes that percentage above the global population norm?

Is it established that molesters who happen to be priests are a statistically high occurence?

If so, what in their culture is affecting them to behave in this criminal way?

I have my theories but I haven't seen frameable information to go further.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 11, 2004, 6:43 pm

so Adex, if a non-religious organization (lets say a Day Care company) has employees that are known molesters, but instead of notifying authorities, they simply transfer them, how would that be different?

would it be irrational for me as a client of that organization to be outraged?

would it be irrational for me as a citizen to want that organization held legally accountable for the crimes it has committed?

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 11, 2004, 6:49 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:If you reject the validity of the christain faith, why hold a Catholic priest to a higher standard than any other group in society?

I have cause to hold them to a higher standard, of which they horribly failed. But secular folk just see it as a way to tear at a group that disagrees with a secular lifestyle.

Instead of being rightfully upset over horrendous acts, many secular people get all happy that they now have a chance to trash a group they hate. How cheap.

But to those of you who have honest concerns I'll share with you what's really on my mind.

They look a large group over 50 years and tabulated the percentage of sexual abuse instances.

Percentagewise how does this compare to the American populace in general in the last 50 years?

Is it a great percentage? Are these molesters a predictable occurance in a large population of priests or is there somthing special to the priest culture that pushes that percentage above the global population norm?

Is it established that molesters who happen to be priests are a statistically high occurence?

If so, what in their culture is affecting them to behave in this criminal way?

I have my theories but I haven't seen frameable information to go further.

We are, at least I am talking not about incidence I am addressing the actions of the church in covering up criminal behavior...If I as an individual or say a therapist covered up by failing to report such an incident I would be very liable the church is no less liable in such a case...

Im not saying the church has a particularly high incidence of pedophilia but that they intentionally cover up incidences, and are liable for the consequences of said cover up...any other ogranization responsible for covering up similar activities would be equally responsible

Priests by the way do fall under the same duty to report laws as therapists etc...its not a higher standard...it is the standard

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 11, 2004, 6:50 pm

Sirensa wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:What I think some of you are forgetting is the Church doesn't preach molestation. It was a small percentage of priests who commited these acts. 4% some has said I believe.
Correct my math if it's wrong - it has been awhile.. but 4% is roughly 1 out of every 25 . That's not what I would consider a small percentage. If these were teachers, the 4% would stand out even moreso.

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:The reason the Church move priests around was to protect itself yes, but also because they forgive. I mean this isn't just a Corporation like ummm Nike or something, whos business is selling shoes. The Church's business is selling love, forgiveness, repentance, etc.
"Forgiveness" is not a good enough reason to cover-up a crime. The individuals, as well as the institution for aiding them, should be legally accountable. It is not the place of the church to "legally" declare someone unaccountable for their crimes. And paying penance, and restitution, are hardly unfamilar terms to catholics. And while their product may be different in nature than Nike and shoes, the Catholic Church is just as much of a business as is Nike.

I totally agree that the "individuals" should pay. I just think it's important to take into consideration the church's ideas and foundations when discussing this.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » March 11, 2004, 6:51 pm

Covering up criminal behavior is wrong.

Covering for a child molester is evil.

I stated my thoughts in my previous post as clearly as I could Voronwe, I don't have a better way to rephrase it.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 11, 2004, 6:52 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: I just think it's important to take into consideration the church's ideas and foundations when discussing this.

how is it relevant?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 11, 2004, 6:53 pm

we probably agree on 100% of this issue anyway

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 11, 2004, 6:53 pm

If you reject the validity of the christain faith, why hold a Catholic priest to a higher standard than any other group in society?

I don't. I hold them equally acountable. If Nike executives were molesting children for decades at youth sports camps, hiding it from authorites, sending those execs back out to different camps year after year, and paying off in exchange for secrecy the parents of some of the children that came forth, I would find Nike equally repulsive.

The difference is, if that Molestation report that came out was about a Nike conspiracy, Nike wouldn't survive the month. Their sales would drop to nothing, law suits would be filed in droves, and in no time at all, nike would vanish, with its executives meeting untimely ends at the hands of fellow prisoners.

Catholics (the consumers of Catholsism) continue to go to Church each week, continue to hand money to the Church, there is no huge criminal investigation, and the executives of the Catholic Church continue to fight against disclosure of names and contiue to believe they should police themselves.

You, and other Christains and Catholics, then pass off the decades of molestation and conspiracy as if it was nothing and blame "god haters" for pointing out that something really seriously wrong is going on here.

Hey, you are right about one thing. I would like nothing more than the enormous lie that is Christianity be exposed for the destructive force that it is. But I assure you I take no glee in the fact that for decades (or more likely centuries, boys and girls have been molested at the hands of these monsters.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 11, 2004, 6:59 pm

Arborealus wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: I just think it's important to take into consideration the church's ideas and foundations when discussing this.
how is it relevant?

Because it's important to understand that, that is their business. It is what they do. Why is this hard to understand?

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » March 11, 2004, 7:03 pm

Aaeamdar wrote:
If you reject the validity of the christain faith, why hold a Catholic priest to a higher standard than any other group in society?
I don't. I hold them equally acountable. If Nike executives were molesting children for decades at youth sports camps, hiding it from authorites, sending those execs back out to different camps year after year, and paying off in exchange for secrecy the parents of some of the children that came forth, I would find Nike equally repulsive.

The difference is, if that Molestation report that came out was about a Nike conspiracy, Nike wouldn't survive the month. Their sales would drop to nothing, law suits would be filed in droves, and in no time at all, nike would vanish, with its executives meeting untimely ends at the hands of fellow prisoners.

Catholics (the consumers of Catholsism) continue to go to Church each week, continue to hand money to the Church, there is no huge criminal investigation, and the executives of the Catholic Church continue to fight against disclosure of names and contiue to believe they should police themselves.

You, and other Christains and Catholics, then pass off the decades of molestation and conspiracy as if it was nothing and blame "god haters" for pointing out that something really seriously wrong is going on here.

Hey, you are right about one thing. I would like nothing more than the enormous lie that is Christianity be exposed for the destructive force that it is. But I assure you I take no glee in the fact that for decades (or more likely centuries, boys and girls have been molested at the hands of these monsters.

Dar you are once again off base with your angst ridden analyse. No one is passing off the decades of molestation as nothing. I want to see those priests and anyone else who commits a crime go to jail. However to say that the believer is at fault is simply ludicrous. Christians give, thats right give, of their hard earned money to support the spreading of the gospel, to help many who cannot help themselves. They give as to God not as a gift to the church.

It is a higher ideal and a concept that obviously escapes you. Not one true Christian holds man up as the object of their faith. So all your slams against Pat Robertson Jimmy Swaggart et al hold no sway. If however you can find something wrong in the new testament with the teachings of Christ I will be the first to help you in your vendetta against all things Christian.

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » March 11, 2004, 7:04 pm

Arborealus wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: I just think it's important to take into consideration the church's ideas and foundations when discussing this.
how is it relevant?

So am I correct in assuming that what Midnyte is saying that the church shouldn't be held responsible for crimes involving their child molesting priests because they are merely practicing their belief system?

Had the church not covered up the instances of child abuse, "forgiving" these priests into situations where their molestations might reoccur, I might feel that the individuals paying alone for their crimes would be enough. And in an idealistic world, where a church, or any organization didn't cover up the crimes of its members, it might be.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 11, 2004, 7:06 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Arborealus wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: I just think it's important to take into consideration the church's ideas and foundations when discussing this.
how is it relevant?
Because it's important to understand that, that is their business. It is what they do. Why is this hard to understand?

Last I checked the business of the catholic church wasn't pedophilia nor was it covering up crime.

What relevance does that have to criminal conspiracy and criminal negligence? What relevance does it have to civil liabilities including exemplary damage?

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » March 11, 2004, 7:10 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Arborealus wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: I just think it's important to take into consideration the church's ideas and foundations when discussing this.
how is it relevant?
Because it's important to understand that, that is their business. It is what they do. Why is this hard to understand?

So if my business were money laundering, would that make it ok to practice it?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 11, 2004, 7:14 pm

Sirensa wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Arborealus wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: I just think it's important to take into consideration the church's ideas and foundations when discussing this.
how is it relevant?
Because it's important to understand that, that is their business. It is what they do. Why is this hard to understand?
So if my business were money laundering, would that make it ok to practice it?

Only if it was monopoly money as then it would have no actual use like religion.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 11, 2004, 7:15 pm

it is misunderstanding Christianity to say that Catholics are merely "following their faith" by forgiving priests in lieu of turning them over to the law.

God's forgiveness for your crimes applies to the disposition of your eternal soul. It does not apply to your accountability to your fellow man here on earth.

they are "covering their ass".

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 11, 2004, 7:20 pm

Or to quote from the Book of Lyle:

Who keeps on trusting you
When you've been cheating
And spending your nights on the town
And who keeps on saying that he still wants you
When you're through running around
And who keeps on loving you
When you've been lying
Saying things ain't what they seem
God does
But I don't
God will
But I won't
And that's the difference
Between God and me

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » March 11, 2004, 7:38 pm

Those numbers make me want to vomit.
ANY organization that covers up this drek has OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS to answer for.

And from priests, no less.

/damnit.

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » March 11, 2004, 8:29 pm

haha what should be said is....The Catholic Church will not go away as long as there are little boys in attendence.

Silvarel Mistmoon · Post by **Silvarel Mistmoon** » March 11, 2004, 8:35 pm

I don't. I hold them equally acountable. If Nike executives were molesting children for decades at youth sports camps, hiding it from authorites, sending those execs back out to different camps year after year, and paying off in exchange for secrecy the parents of some of the children that came forth, I would find Nike equally repulsive.

The difference is, if that Molestation report that came out was about a Nike conspiracy, Nike wouldn't survive the month. Their sales would drop to nothing, law suits would be filed in droves, and in no time at all, nike would vanish, with its executives meeting untimely ends at the hands of fellow prisoners.

Catholics (the consumers of Catholsism) continue to go to Church each week, continue to hand money to the Church, there is no huge criminal investigation, and the executives of the Catholic Church continue to fight against disclosure of names and contiue to believe they should police themselves.

You, and other Christains and Catholics, then pass off the decades of molestation and conspiracy as if it was nothing and blame "god haters" for pointing out that something really seriously wrong is going on here.

Hey, you are right about one thing. I would like nothing more than the enormous lie that is Christianity be exposed for the destructive force that it is. But I assure you I take no glee in the fact that for decades (or more likely centuries, boys and girls have been molested at the hands of these monsters.

I am a Christain, not of the Catholic faith however but I do know serveral who are and they have been sicken by the evil acts of these priest and of the church for hiding them. They blame know one other then the church and priests that did these things.
I don't know how Christianity has destroyed your life or attempted to destroy your life but for many people who are not weak minded, who know how to research and always ask questions and still choose to have faith in the religion choices it is not destroying thier lives.
I would say to you, open up your mind, talk and listen to level headed people that do choose to have faith in God and I would bet money

that you would change your mind towards Christians, you may still choose not to believe in God and that is your right but for you to lump all Christians or believers of God in to one barrel proves to me that you really don't know a true Christian.

I would say most of the parents of these kids over the years were probably very overwhelmed by the thought they were putting their children in the hands of these monsters, because of their faith in believing these people were safe for their children to be left alone with they would I assume have been and are living with quilt like you or I have never had and hopefully will never endure. They in a sense are victems as well.

One thing I have always told myself, I don't trust anyone with my children. Even when my daugther wanted to go before the church and accept Christ, I went with her to the youth minsters office, he is a great guy but I still went with her.

Just to let you know btw, if I had my way those that hurt children would be put to death in the most painful way I could think up. Of course while I feel that way there is someone on the other side of the fence that would be holding up a sign wanting that same person to be treated with kindness and love and compassion.
Of course I try to remember that I am not to judge, its not my place to do that, and often I fail in this area.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 11, 2004, 8:40 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:If you reject the validity of the christain faith, why hold a Catholic priest to a higher standard than any other group in society?

I have cause to hold them to a higher standard, of which they horribly failed. But secular folk just see it as a way to tear at a group that disagrees with a secular lifestyle.

Instead of being rightfully upset over horrendous acts, many secular people get all happy that they now have a chance to trash a group they hate. How cheap.

But to those of you who have honest concerns I'll share with you what's really on my mind.

They look a large group over 50 years and tabulated the percentage of sexual abuse instances.

Percentagewise how does this compare to the American populace in general in the last 50 years?

Is it a great percentage? Are these molesters a predictable occurance in a large population of priests or is there somthing special to the priest culture that pushes that percentage above the global population norm?

Is it established that molesters who happen to be priests are a statistically high occurence?

If so, what in their culture is affecting them to behave in this criminal way?

I have my theories but I haven't seen frameable information to go further.

Anyone of any denomination

has every right to be judgemental of priests

who

are molesting children and teenagers.

Why?

Why when we don't hold them in the

same regard as others who do follow that faith?

Because those people DO

place their faith in them, and that

faith is being betrayed. I don't need an excuse

to put down organized religion, there's already plenty

in

my mind that can be used.

What this is here is a criminal act.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 11, 2004, 8:56 pm

I AM A BANANA

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » March 11, 2004, 9:30 pm

No one is saying that rank and file members of the Catholic church are directly responsible for the molestation. What 'Dar is saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that such events should erode the faith that Catholics have in their church, and that the church itself should be held partially criminally liable. No one is suggesting that Silvarel and Atokal should be accused of child molestation.