Bush & Drug Testing in Schools

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » February 28, 2004, 4:18 pm

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... drugs_dc_2

You know, I'm getting REALLY sick of Bush's attempts to shove Christianity down people's throats. Drug testing in schools I'm neutral on, but the fact that he is spending tax payer dollars to sneak religion into school pisses me off.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » February 28, 2004, 4:28 pm

Control by fear...

Buy christian, buy american...

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » February 28, 2004, 4:39 pm

I don't see where it says Christian specifically; just "faith based".

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » February 28, 2004, 4:39 pm

I'm a little leery of the random drug testing personally. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for reducing drug use among teenagers, but... it just seems to cross the line. What happens if you refuse to give a sample?

As for the faith-based programs, no surprise that I'm against them. Just like it will be no surprise that some others here will call me evil for not putting my faith in their God to clean up the childrens!

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » February 28, 2004, 4:41 pm

Akaran_D wrote:I don't see where it says Christian specifically; just "faith based".

faith-based = religion, specifically Christian. "faith based" is just a nice little PC term for it.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » February 28, 2004, 4:43 pm

Akaran_D wrote:I don't see where it says Christian specifically; just "faith based".

Bush has converted to being Muslim and is spreading the teachings of Mohammed now. Riiiight. Or are you saying it's more "have faith in yourself, kids!"? That's probably even less likely than him converting. Like he can even joke about having faith in the public.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · February 28, 2004, 4:43 pm

I'm all for it.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » February 28, 2004, 4:45 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I'm all for it.

My face is akin to the shock & awe plan used in Iraq.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » February 28, 2004, 5:14 pm

Afic, giving it to Jewish, Catholic, Muslim or Christian groups is great. I'm Christian, so you know which of the three I'd pick - but ANY of the above would be great.

All four groups offer great guidance to people - and even if they do not choose to beleive it, and it is not shoved down their throats, I don't see where it CAN hurt.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » February 28, 2004, 5:28 pm

Akaran_D wrote:Afic, giving it to Jewish, Catholic, Muslim or Christian groups is great. I'm Christian, so you know which of the three I'd pick - but ANY of the above would be great.

All four groups offer great guidance to people - and even if they do not choose to beleive it, and it is not shoved down their throats, I don't see where it CAN hurt.

Being agnostic and comming from a pretty agnostic backround i wouldnt want my kid going to a godamn bible thumping rehabilitation center. I have the misfortune of going to a private babtist pre school and they tried to corrupt your mind from day one. I would go home every day and tell my mommy and daddy that they were going to hell for doing X,X, and X.
Drug tests should be a recommendation for certain programs or for certain jobs, not a mandatory pratice for a mandatory highschool education.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » February 28, 2004, 5:38 pm

Akaran_D wrote:Afic, giving it to Jewish, Catholic, Muslim or Christian groups is great. I'm Christian, so you know which of the three I'd pick - but ANY of the above would be great.

All four groups offer great guidance to people - and even if they do not choose to beleive it, and it is not shoved down their throats, I don't see where it CAN hurt.

Catholics or Christians?...

What about Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Mormons, Scientologists, Wiccans, sundry Pagans, Atheists, Coptics, Native American Mystics, VooDoo...I think the coptics would be good choice for a faith based drug program...

...Or how about a Peyotero...

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » February 28, 2004, 5:44 pm

Akaran_D wrote:Afic, giving it to Jewish, Catholic, Muslim or Christian groups is great. I'm Christian, so you know which of the three I'd pick - but ANY of the above would be great.

All four groups offer great guidance to people - and even if they do not choose to beleive it, and it is not shoved down their throats, I don't see where it CAN hurt.

It does hurt because they are using something as serious as chemical dependency to preach religious beliefs. Their belief is that you can quit drugs by "finding Jesus." If a student and their parents want to use religion as a way to treat addiction, then that should be left to the family to decide and arrange. It should not be a part of public schooling and should not be paid for with my tax money. Religion has no place in public education. It has no place in government at all.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » February 28, 2004, 5:59 pm

I would go home every day and tell my mommy and daddy that they were going to hell for doing X,X, and X.

Straight up, I'm sorry you went through that kind of crap. That is *not* the right way to do it.

What about Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Mormons, Scientologists, Wiccans, sundry Pagans, Atheists, Coptics, Native American Mystics, VooDoo...I think the coptics would be good choice for a faith based drug program......Or how about a Peyotero...

I think I'd draw the line just a bit before satanism, but I've no issue with any of those other groups. I know several Buddhists and Hindus and used to be close friends with a family of Mormons. I have atheist/semi-atheist friends and while I don't believe what they do, I feel that is their choice. Used to be close friends with a practicing Wiccan, haven't heard from her in a few years tho.

It does hurt because they are using something as serious as chemical dependency to preach religious beliefs.

Do you see anywhere where it says it's preaching? There are a LOT of Christian groups that do this kind of thing but they do not force it down anyone's throats; there is a difference between showing someone things that may help and may help give them the self confidence enough to break away from chemical dependency and saying that they won't come clean unless they sign up as a member of xxx orginization.

I've often seen religion on those boards based as a set of morals. Let's face it, the majority of the kids that HAVE a drug problem also probably have all sorts of other kind of grief across the board - alcoholism, practicing unsafe sex, trouble with the law, and the omnipresent shadow of possible parental abuse. Why is it so bad to try and USE that set of morals to give a positive influence to people that need what help they can get?

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » February 28, 2004, 6:14 pm

akaran_d wrote:Why is it so bad to try and USE that set of morals to give a positive influence to people that need what help they can get?

It isn't...It IS wrong for the government to put itself in the position of endorsing any moral belief system...funding = endorsement...

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » February 28, 2004, 6:15 pm

We need to get this shit cleaned up; have we done anything else that's worked recently?

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » February 28, 2004, 6:17 pm

And just to clarify:
You don't mind if any group except the Government does the above (faith based rehab, not the random drug tests) as long as they don't have any sort of Government funding?

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » February 28, 2004, 6:18 pm

Akaran_D wrote:We need to get this shit cleaned up; have we done anything else that's worked recently?

Do those programs show any lower recidivism than any other program?

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » February 28, 2004, 6:21 pm

Do you know of any resource site that would have the numbesr to check? I'm honestly interested in looking it up.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » February 28, 2004, 6:40 pm

Probably not on the web...:/...

I have actually forgotten the critical empirical journals on addiction and recovery...Never practiced that sort of therapy...I think I recall Addiction being a primary journal but I may be wrong...

Nevertheless, if "faith-based" = "religion-based" then the government is expressly forbidden from funding or mandating such programs. Equally offensive would be forcing participation in said programs to the exclusion of secular treatment modalities.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » February 28, 2004, 6:52 pm

Akaran_D wrote:And just to clarify:
You don't mind if any group except the Government does the above (faith based rehab, not the random drug tests) as long as they don't have any sort of Government funding?

I'm opposed to it being mandated by, or endorsed by government...Testing one's own children and choosing a treatment plan for one's own children and paying the cost of such treatment privately is certainly fine...

Addendum: Provided the program does not violate the individual in treatment's constitutional rights...then of course there would be legal implications of said treatment...And the program would be subject to actual and punitive damages in addition to possible criminal actions. Some programs I've seen are questionable on these grounds...

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » February 28, 2004, 9:07 pm

just so you all know ... most of the people that go to rehab for drugs usually go back to drugs again ... thats why insurance agency's don't want to pay for it because its not going to work ... and as for the goverment backing a "faith based" thing ... i'll be pissed off ...

bush needs to quit trying to burn down american before he gets his ass voted out of office ... he's pulling a gov of cali and trying to make it shitty for everyone until he is gone

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » February 28, 2004, 9:10 pm

I understand what it's like to have my tax money go towards things that I have personal and relgious disagreements with.

This is why I think that the 23 million dollars should be reduced from our income tax, and a tax deduction of equal amount placed as an option to people who choose to give their own money to a rehabilitation program of their choice.

This way if you have personal beliefs against a religious rehab program, you could just earmark your personal contribution to another, more agreeable organization.

Of course this will never happen. The Fed Goverment craves the power of our money too much to release it in such a manner.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » February 29, 2004, 2:20 am

Arborealus wrote:
Akaran_D wrote:Afic, giving it to Jewish, Catholic, Muslim or Christian groups is great. I'm Christian, so you know which of the three I'd pick - but ANY of the above would be great.

All four groups offer great guidance to people - and even if they do not choose to beleive it, and it is not shoved down their throats, I don't see where it CAN hurt.
Catholics or Christians?...

What about Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Mormons, Scientologists, Wiccans, sundry Pagans, Atheists, Coptics, Native American Mystics, VooDoo...I think the coptics would be good choice for a faith based drug program......Or how about a Peyotero...

Native American Mystic rehab center!!!!
If i ever had to go to a rehab center, that would sure as fuck be the one

That or i'd have some fun and start a cult of dionisis(sp) rehab center

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » February 29, 2004, 2:23 am

Adex_Xeda wrote:I understand what it's like to have my tax money go towards things that I have personal and relgious disagreements with.

This is why I think that the 23 million dollars should be reduced from our income tax, and a tax deduction of equal amount placed as an option to people who choose to give their own money to a rehabilitation program of their choice.

This way if you have personal beliefs against a religious rehab program, you could just earmark your personal contribution to another, more agreeable organization.

Of course this will never happen. The Fed Goverment craves the power of our money too much to release it in such a manner.

So everyone could personally indicate where there 24 cents of taxes that go towards rehab centers ends up.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » February 29, 2004, 2:25 am

Drasta wrote:just so you all know ... most of the people that go to rehab for drugs usually go back to drugs again ... thats why insurance agency's don't want to pay for it because its not going to work ... and as for the goverment backing a "faith based" thing ... i'll be pissed off ...

bush needs to quit trying to burn down american before he gets his ass voted out of office ... he's pulling a gov of cali and trying to make it shitty for everyone until he is gone

NOT TRUE!!! my brother used to do acid, went to a rehab center...did acid for 5 more years...and now he only smoeks pot!!!!!!!

...godamn im drunk

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » February 29, 2004, 5:49 am

Considering LSD isn't addictive....

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » February 29, 2004, 2:04 pm

Vetiria wrote:Considering LSD isn't addictive....

do you notice any sarcasm in that post? Rehab centers DO NOT WORK, everyone that uses drugs knows what there in for...trying to duplicate the same bullshit as Bush is doing will accomplish the same thing... jack shit.

The ONLY solution is to legalize drugs and make them available by responsible, law abiding corperations, that will give users clean, safe drugs, provide more americans with jobs, and illiminate maybe 25% of all crime in the US. Its a win win situation but of course "faith" has to get in the way of a reasonable, healthy solution that will solve a huge problem.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » February 29, 2004, 3:48 pm

Why stop at this program?

Anytime we have public money going towards something that people can't agree on, why not let the people earmark their taxes towards those things that they agree with.

Popular things will be well funded, and things that the public doesn't really want to fund will die from a lack of funding.

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » February 29, 2004, 3:59 pm

notice he said he did acid for 5 more years after he got out of rehab =-P

adex ... does that mean i could go .. no i don't want my money going to the welfare program?

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 29, 2004, 6:38 pm

Adex: Because greed would take over and nothing would get funded. And because there are some unpopular things that need funding.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » February 29, 2004, 6:55 pm

Sueven wrote:Adex: Because greed would take over and nothing would get funded. And because there are some unpopular things that need funding.

agreed

most of the public doesnt have the ability to manage or prioritize their own financial affairs, much less be able to decide what is important for society and what is not.

Krurk · Post by **Krurk** » February 29, 2004, 7:06 pm

Could prove interesting if there was an option on tax forms specifying something like this:

You have the option to choose where $5 worth of your tax money goes from the following choices.

1) Defense
2) Education
3) Homeland Security
4) International Aid
5) Welfare

Should you not select an option, your money will spent at the discretion of congress.

Sure it's impractical and opens up the possibility of deficits for unpopular departments, but it could be interesting to see what the general public chooses.

As scary a thought as it may be, it would be nice to see a little direct democracy from time to time.

Rivera Bladestrike · February 29, 2004, 7:23 pm

...could that be a future poll here in VV?

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » February 29, 2004, 7:25 pm

Rivera Bladestrike wrote:...could that be a future poll here in VV?

if so, add something related to the environment

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » February 29, 2004, 8:30 pm

Xzion wrote:
Vetiria wrote:Considering LSD isn't addictive....
do you notice any sarcasm in that post? Rehab centers DO NOT WORK,

1. When it's hard to read someone's post in the first place, it's even harder to denote sarcasm in that post.

2. Rehab centers do work, if and (usually) only if the person realizes they have a problem and want to fix it.

3. Legalizing all drugs is not a solution. That would create more havoc than help the problem. When it comes to drugs like heroin, PCP, etc..., it's extremely unlikely anyone could be responsible. There are always exceptions, of course, but it's not enough to make them legal. Most people are not strong-willed enough to break any sort of extreme addiction like heroin can cause. Legalizing marijuana and LSD, to an extent, is something I would support; the harder drugs, however, should not be legalized simply based on the likelihood of an extreme addiction.

Back on topic:

Weren't forced random drug tests in public schools ruled unconstitutional? I could have swore the Supreme Court made that ruling years ago.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » February 29, 2004, 8:31 pm

See that's where I differ from many people.

I hold that most Americans are quite able to make sound decisions about where their tax money goes. I disagree with the philosophy that states that the average American needs the government to spend his money for him because he lacks the understanding to make proper decisions.

Yes, there are some things that are unpopular yet should be funded. Those things would be funded as they are now.

Truly divisive issues such as Planned Parenthood, the National Endowment for the Arts, Bush's funding for faith based schools and rehabs, all could be set up under a tax payer's choice system.

This way, few are forced to pay money to something they disagree with. AND they have direct power to support things they do agree with.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » February 29, 2004, 11:24 pm

Hrmm... nicoteine is more addictive than heroin..

From what I've seen, look at a certain Rolling Stone for an example, the only thing procluding people from using heroin recreationally for a lifetime is a clean, reliable supply.

Semi-off-topic: Did anyone else hear about the teacher that planted pot in a kid's locker and had to drag the sniffer dog to it repeatedly to get him to find it?

The story goes that he bought the drugs off the kid but had trouble proving anything, so set him up for a "righteous" frame up. Unfortunately my source was the radio, so can't link anything about it...

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » March 1, 2004, 2:03 am

if i start my "gays for god" religious group ... i should get federal funding?

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » March 1, 2004, 11:06 am

As long as your Gays for God rehab is voluntary, and is successful (unlike most government programs) it should be a candidate for faith based rehab funding.

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » March 1, 2004, 12:05 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Why stop at this program?

Anytime we have public money going towards something that people can't agree on, why not let the people earmark their taxes towards those things that they agree with.

Popular things will be well funded, and things that the public doesn't really want to fund will die from a lack of funding.

The purpose of the elected officials in a Democratic Republic is to make the decisions related to all of the details of running the country so that the individuals do not have to. If each person had to do the appropriate research and background necessary to sensibly decide how each tax dollar was spent, then they would probably need to quit their other job to dedicate themselves to this work full time.

Furthermore, the level of detail is enormous, which would make it excrutiatingly difficult for most people to make informed decisions on all topics.

As a result, the principle of a republic is to elect someone that you trust to make the right decisions to represent you and a group of your peers.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » March 1, 2004, 12:23 pm

Lalanae wrote:
Akaran_D wrote:Afic, giving it to Jewish, Catholic, Muslim or Christian groups is great. I'm Christian, so you know which of the three I'd pick - but ANY of the above would be great.

All four groups offer great guidance to people - and even if they do not choose to beleive it, and it is not shoved down their throats, I don't see where it CAN hurt.
It does hurt because they are using something as serious as chemical dependency to preach religious beliefs. Their belief is that you can quit drugs by "finding Jesus." If a student and their parents want to use religion as a way to treat addiction, then that should be left to the family to decide and arrange. It should not be a part of public schooling and should not be paid for with my tax money. Religion has no place in public education. It has no place in government at all.

ROFL what a close minded individual you are.
From your article:

"And because I know a good way to change a person's behavior is to change their heart, faith-based treatment programs will always be an option," he said.

Further, saying that religion has no place in the education system is patently ignorant. Giving kids information to make life choices is what the education system is about.

The whole anti-religion thing on these boards is merely an expression of those who still are trying to be different. It is considered cool in this day and age to bash religion and specifically Christianity. But I would ask you this Lala, how does making faith based treatment programs available limit the persons options??

Perhaps in your world offering one choice "secular" treatments means more freedom and choice???

Whats this crap about sneaking religion into schools? Yep, it is a bad thing to teach kids to love thy neighbour as thyself. Worried that kids might grow up with a moral compass?

(flame on)

masteen · Post by **masteen** » March 1, 2004, 12:25 pm

Every cokehead that I've known who found Jesus in rehab or jail manages to lose him within a year of their release.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » March 1, 2004, 12:28 pm

The whole anti-religion thing on these boards is merely an expression of those who still are trying to be different

Does it help you sleep easier to think this bullshit? Being an atheist is "just a phase" so you can stop giving the matter any thought?

Whats this crap about sneaking religion into schools? Yep, it is a bad thing to teach kids to love thy neighbour as thyself. Worried that kids might grow up with a moral compass?

Because, of course, the religious have a monopoly on morality. Yeah right.
Love your neighbour as thyself. Unless they're gay. Or muslim. Or have had an abortion.

Why am I still amazed by the level of stupidity sometimes displayed here?

Deward · Post by **Deward** » March 1, 2004, 12:31 pm

I don't believe kids should be forced to take drug tests. I do think they should be forced to take drug education classes or seminars though. I also believe that every kid that wants to participate in extra-curricular activities should be required to be tested.

If a kid is found to be using drugs then the parents need to get involved. It seems like parents today expect the government to do everything for them. I would also be pretty pissed off if my kids were forced to go to the bible thumper rehab day camp.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 1, 2004, 12:56 pm

I would love to see mandatory drug tests in all school starting in middle school.

The only people who could be against this are people who don't want drug use to go down.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 1, 2004, 1:09 pm

Atokal wrote: Further, saying that religion has no place in the education system is patently ignorant. Giving kids information to make life choices is what the education system is about.

Clearly the framers of the constitution were less enlightened than you...

Atokal wrote: The whole anti-religion thing on these boards is merely an expression of those who still are trying to be different. It is considered cool in this day and age to bash religion and specifically Christianity. But I would ask you this Lala, how does making faith based treatment programs available limit the persons options??

There is a difference between being anti-religion and opposing governmental endorsement of religion. While as an atheist I do think all religions are silly, I realize the good they do for their members in many cases in many ways and can be a positive influence.

And at 40...I could give a fuck who thinks what of me...It's really simple not everyone who disagrees with you has juvenile motivation...

Atokal wrote: Whats this crap about sneaking religion into schools? Yep, it is a bad thing to teach kids to love thy neighbour as thyself. Worried that kids might grow up with a moral compass?

Nope but its a bad thing for government to endorse religion...Which is why it is constitutionally forbidden. We are, and have always been, in the US, a pluralistic culture. We have to accomodate different belief systems.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 1, 2004, 1:12 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I would love to see mandatory drug tests in all school starting in middle school.

The only people who could be against this are people who don't want drug use to go down.

Ah...the "there is no rational belief except mine" theory...you are simply wrong...

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » March 1, 2004, 1:56 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I would love to see mandatory drug tests in all school starting in middle school.

The only people who could be against this are people who don't want drug use to go down.

No, it's people who think teenagers should be able to make their own decisions and not be spied on at every turn of the corner.

The only people who could be for this are lazy parents who want to spend more time playing a game than spending time with their children.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » March 1, 2004, 2:05 pm

I think anyone that is arrested for committing a crime should be shot to death on the spot.

The only people that would be against this are people who don't want to see crime go down.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 1, 2004, 2:26 pm

Vetiria wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I would love to see mandatory drug tests in all school starting in middle school.

The only people who could be against this are people who don't want drug use to go down.
No, it's people who think teenagers should be able to make their own decisions and not be spied on at every turn of the corner.

The only people who could be for this are lazy parents who want to spend more time playing a game than spending time with their children.

LOL. Parents cannot watch there kids while they are in school. We entrust those establishments to make sure our kids are safe. Having a drug free environment should be a fucking given.

And trust teenagers? LOL You must be on some drugs right now. During those formative years kids need discipline, guidance and structure.

You turning a blind eye and entrusting people to do the right thing is no different than turning a blind eye and hoping no terrorists fly a couple planes into some highly populated buildings.

Why is it so fucking insane of an idea to try and prevent bad things or behavior? I just don't fucking get you people.