Why are you Democrat/Republican?

Seebs · Post by **Seebs** » February 23, 2004, 7:45 pm

We hi-jacked a different tread so I made my own.

I know many of you are from nations with socialist tendencies, but of course, your opinion is valued here as well.

So many auto-responses from the left on this.

A. Quit crying about the popular vote. Most of the geographic country voted for Bush. The fringe portions of the country voted for Gore. Lets agree to thank God that Los Angeles, NYC, Washington DC don't determine our leaders.

B. If you are counting on government to better define your 'family values' then you've already lost the game.

C. Many of you would be dead if Gore were president during the 9/11 debacle. <flame>

D. The Religious Right and the Freaky Left should all be placed in a nice boat and sunk to the bottom of the sea. Pat Roberson, et al, is a zealot freak and PETA and moveon.org are beyond blind from their hate.

Why are you Republican or Democrat? Here are my reasons.

I vote Republican but love my porn. What to do?
My family had little money growing up, but I earned everything I've received, so I don't like handouts or people that receive them.
Abortion should not be used as birth control. That'smy only argument here.
Kill murderers.
Flat rate taxes (say 17% across the board with no loopholes).
I do not want to hear about a rapists troubled childhood. I'd like him removed from society.
I love the gay culture, the funnest I've been around by far, I just think homosexuals should have equal rights, not extra rights.
Disband the NEA. Its a cancer and can be tracked to the downward spiral of today's educational blight.
Union Schmunion!
If you want to socialize medicine, then limit malpractice to a reasonable amount.
Limit Trial Lawyers to 3 suits a year. Fuckers.
If there is oil in Anwar<sp> drill through a goddamn caribou to retrieve it. Anything to make us less dependent on the Mid-East.

If I were president:
1. 18-year-old age set for drinking across the nation. If you can go to war, smoke and vote, then you should be able to drink.
2. Mandatory driver test for persons over the age of 66. Good God.
3. Flat rate taxes.
4. Would tax churches.
5. Would pay teachers on their worth and smarts. Take a teacher's exam with your pay based on your score. Tenure determined on how well your students do in life.
6. Cat 5 wire all low income housing. Treat it like highway infrastructure improvements. I agree there is not an equal playing field here.
7. Would come close to being an isolationists. Take care of our borders, our imported goods and trade equally.
8. Collect what other nations owe us. If you knew that number you'd be amazed.
9. Leave the UN. nothing in the UN that NATO can't take care of, and its mostly our boys (UK,US) anyway.
10. Individual URLs. That's right. yourfullname@yourcity.net. people would always know how to get in touch with you.

That's it. Don;t mean to offend anybody and I'm truly interested in why you think like you do. Who knows, your rationale my change my mind on certain issues. That's the beauty of debate.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 23, 2004, 7:51 pm

Who wants to be a Jackass?!?! Look how cute the lil' elephant is!

Drolgin Steingrinder · February 23, 2004, 8:00 pm

C. Many of you would be dead if Gore were president during the 9/11 debacle.

Uh...whu?

Please explain what you mean by this - are you indicating that the firefighters and rescue crews would have worked less dilligently had a Democrat been in the Oval Office? That the structural integrity of the twin towers would have been worse? That the planes that hit the Pentagon would have been better aimed?

I can't wait to hear your rationale for this statement.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » February 23, 2004, 8:03 pm

he was refering to the spineless sack of flesh that is Al Gore, I know this to be a fact since he was unfortunately Governor of Tennessee for years and we saw first hand just how useless he is. He was even more ineffectural as Gov. than he was as Vice President if that is possible.
Gore would not have taken the offensive action that Bush and his cabinet propelled us into.

Seebs · Post by **Seebs** » February 23, 2004, 8:04 pm

Actually, its more the National Security after the event, had nothing to do with the fine folks taking care of the business during the event.

The fact that we have not had another event speaks volumes to me.

Understand the rationale behind it now?

BTW, your steering this to a flamefest was half-hearted. I know it will get there eventually, I just hope its a better effort than yours.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » February 23, 2004, 8:08 pm

Taxes are teh debil.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 23, 2004, 8:13 pm

Seebs:

A. Bush won more 'geographical area'? the reason NYC, LA, whatever are more important than states like Idaho or whatever is:

1. they have more people
2. they generate more revenue

so if there is a bias towards urban centers, the reason is because those are hubs of commerce and happen to be where there are higher concentrations of people are.

i know you are from a largely rural state, but the point of an election is to have people vote for you, not squares of dirt.

D. i'm not sure what the "Freaky Left" is in terms of an organized political movement. I think the Christian Cooalition and similar organizations are extremely well organized and dangerous organizations for those who are not in their ethno-theocratic movement.

Republicans don't support a flat tax by the way Seebs. They need the middle class to pay closer to 30% to float their deficit spending.

as for why i'm a Democrat:

mostly because i feel that the people who control the Republican party are more dangerous and corrupt than those who control the Democratic party.

i think the government should protect the people's resources (drinking water, etc) instead of corporate donors' profit margins.

i think if we are to continue to lead the world in technological innovation, it would be a good thing if our children were actually able to do math.

i'm highly opposed to and scared of the theocracy that the religious right - which OWNS the GOP - is trying to install.

I'm in favor of curing Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, paralysis, and other neurodegnerative conditions, as well as cancer and so on - and since the Republicans are in the Christian Coalitions pocket, we are going to lose trillions of dollars in innovation as stem cell research initiative continues to move overseas.

I do think there are serious problems with the Democratic party, but it is the lesser of two evils in my view.

Post by **Xouqoa** » February 23, 2004, 8:18 pm

I don't follow or believe in political parties. I try as best I can to remain objective and view each candidate's policies and then vote for the one which I feel matches my interests best. I'd say I lean more towards a Democratic/Liberal side though on most issues.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » February 23, 2004, 8:20 pm

Xouqoa wrote:I don't follow or believe in political parties. I try as best I can to remain objective and view each candidate's policies and then vote for the one which I feel matches my interests best. I'd say I lean more towards a Democratic/Liberal side though on most issues.

what he said

Drolgin Steingrinder · February 23, 2004, 8:20 pm

I understand your rationale now - I think it's flawed, but I understand where you were coming from. Your point didn't exactly come across too well in your first post, and it seemed like a knee-jerk reaction blaming everything that happened on 9-11 ("the 9-11 debacle") on previous inaction of Democrats.

I wasn't trying to start a flame war, I just found your supposition to be flawed and ridiculous

Damiarch · Post by **Damiarch** » February 23, 2004, 8:23 pm

Xouqoa wrote:I don't follow or believe in political parties. I try as best I can to remain objective and view each candidate's policies and then vote for the one which I feel matches my interests best. I'd say I lean more towards a Democratic/Liberal side though on most issues.

Same as well.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » February 23, 2004, 8:51 pm

Huzzah for this can of worms again. Ok.

It's no secret I lean to the left. Not hardcore by any means, but I generally fear the right. Now, being from Canada my views are a little different, but I also am able to look at the American political landscape with more of an objective, outsiders view. Granted, this is highly coloured by the fact I think Bush is a buffoon, but hey.

Things I do not like about the Republican party:

- Strong religious ties. I don't believe in some higher being, but that's beside the point. Even if I did, I wouldn't want an organization with as much sway as the Christian groups have among the Republican party. Some will say the church promotes morality, goodness, etc, etc. I say a person can do a *better* job of this themselves when not under the thumb of a corrupt and archaic church.

- Corporate ties. Democrats aren't exactly innocent here either, yes, but they're the lesser of the two evils imo. Corporate figners are so deep in politicians pockets that they're giving them handjobs. It's a pipe dream, but I like the idea of a representative of the people representing the people.

- Gun(g)-ho! The NRA scares the fuck out of me. Right-wing views on gun "control" scare the fuck out of me. Ok, guns scare the fuck out of me. Saying ever man and woman should have access to a gun to defend themselves isn't a proactive means of dealing with it. Sure, it can save your life. It can also take lives of innocents. It's too easy for guns to fall into the wrong hands. Legally.

Honestly, you don't sound like you're Republican. You share a few ideals, but you also downright throw down some of them, which is a good thing. Basing your ideals just on what a party says is right and wrong doesn't help anything, so good for you there. But be warned... free-thinking is frowned upon in the Republican party.

I think you're wrong about the 9/11 comment. To say any person, of any party, who held the position of president wouldn't have taken measures to clamp down on national security is just someone allowing their personal prejudices get in the way of their rational thinking. The methods taken probably would have been different, and from my point of view, that would have been a good thing. Department of Homeland Security? What a sham that is. Toppling the Taliban was a necessary move, one that Democrats would have done after 9/11. Hell, the Green party would have (if you can get past the thought of the Green party being in power.)

Iraq tho? No. Mistake. Big, huge, bumbling mistake. You want to improve homeland security? Go invading countries on flimsy excuses and pissing off Arab nations! Yay! Don't you feel safer already?

Ok, enough, this has rambled enough, and I've lost my train of thought!

Oh yes,

Pro-choice
Pro-gay rights (anti-ANY group getting special priveledges above another)
Anti-morons

There we go!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 23, 2004, 8:56 pm

Damiarch wrote:
Xouqoa wrote:I don't follow or believe in political parties. I try as best I can to remain objective and view each candidate's policies and then vote for the one which I feel matches my interests best. I'd say I lean more towards a Democratic/Liberal side though on most issues.
Same as well.

Same but the elephant is still cooler than the jackass.

I don't see how anyone could be perfectly aligned with the democratic or republican party. As with graphics cards, I'll go with the best one available. Right now, Bush = ATi. There are some that have brand loyalty that still cling to nVidia or, as an example, only play EQ which the nVidia handles better because of the crappy code.

So if you like crappy code, you may like the democratic candidates but just keep in mind that even EQ's engine is being upgraded in the near future which will eliminate yet another reason to use nVidia or vote for Kerry....huh?

noel · Post by **noel** » February 23, 2004, 9:02 pm

I completely hate both parties. I don't like them at all. Each party will take stands on issues. Some I agree with, some I don't. A few quick examples:

I am strongly in favor of capital punishment.
I am strongly pro-choice (if not used as a means of birth control).
I am strongly anti-religion having any say at all in government.
I am strongly for certain types of gun control.
I am strongly for giving incentives to big business (I can still fantasize that trickle-down economics works).
I am strongly for more rigid environmental policies.

I'm very moderate.

This is sad but... I honestly don't believe there will ever be a presidential candidate that I will really 'like'. I firmly believe that no one will ever get to the oval office again while retaining their integrity.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » February 23, 2004, 9:03 pm

Voronwë wrote:Seebs:

A. Bush won more 'geographical area'? the reason NYC, LA, whatever are more important than states like Idaho or whatever is:

1. they have more people
2. they generate more revenue

so if there is a bias towards urban centers, the reason is because those are hubs of commerce and happen to be where there are higher concentrations of people are.

i know you are from a largely rural state, but the point of an election is to have people vote for you, not squares of dirt.

D. i'm not sure what the "Freaky Left" is in terms of an organized political movement. I think the Christian Cooalition and similar organizations are extremely well organized and dangerous organizations for those who are not in their ethno-theocratic movement.

Republicans don't support a flat tax by the way Seebs. They need the middle class to pay closer to 30% to float their deficit spending.

as for why i'm a Democrat:

mostly because i feel that the people who control the Republican party are more dangerous and corrupt than those who control the Democratic party.

i think the government should protect the people's resources (drinking water, etc) instead of corporate donors' profit margins.

i think if we are to continue to lead the world in technological innovation, it would be a good thing if our children were actually able to do math.

i'm highly opposed to and scared of the theocracy that the religious right - which OWNS the GOP - is trying to install.

I'm in favor of curing Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, paralysis, and other neurodegnerative conditions, as well as cancer and so on - and since the Republicans are in the Christian Coalitions pocket, we are going to lose trillions of dollars in innovation as stem cell research initiative continues to move overseas.

I do think there are serious problems with the Democratic party, but it is the lesser of two evils in my view.

Jesus christ, is that ever on target.

Seebs,

First, a flat tax doesn't effect each person equally, regardless of what you're led to believe
Second, just because someone needs public assistance, doesn't mean they are lazy and shiftless.
Third, pro-choice <> birth control. Don't think that people who are pro-choice want it to be used in lieu of any "mistakes".
Fourth, what' not equal about gay's being able to marry? Or did I misinterpret your line there.
Fifth, the popular vote IS the vote. Why the hell would someone that lives in Arkansas have with 5 people per sq. mile have any fucking clue as to how people are supposed to live together? Seriously. thinking that geography ownership should play a more important role than population density is ridiculous. How about this, you buy your 10,000 acres in tornado fucking alley, pop. 3,500, and I'll purchase mine on 58th and Columbus in Manhattan. And just because I'm a nice guy, I'll only take 1 acre around that zone.

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » February 23, 2004, 9:03 pm

Would come close to being an isolationists. Take care of our borders, our imported goods and trade equally

This alone would be your downfall. Your big business generates a LOT fo it's money from overseas business. Most of your technology comes from Japan and the workforce that manufacture your goods comes from China. A lot of your natural resources come from other countries as well and you guys import a LOT of clean water from Canada.

Cat 5 wire all low income housing. Treat it like highway infrastructure improvements. I agree there is not an equal playing field here.

How many people in low income housing own a computer? Who would pay for this massive cabling job? Why would cat5 be necessary when Dialup is all most people think they need anyhow?

Collect what other nations owe us. If you knew that number you'd be amazed.

As if your country's existing foreign policy wasn't provocation enough...

***

Your whole platform is a shortsighted, flag-waving, fuck the rest of the world, self centered bullshit. Doing what you put forth above wouldn't strengthen your nation, it would cripple it.

Consumerism would die because either
a - Everything would cost too much to produce and inflation would skyrocket.
b - Your laborforce would skyrocket but salaries would plummet to keep prices where it is, created a whole new class of poor, creating shanty-town around every major population center.

You would decimate your natural resources trying to keep your standards of living where it is.

Finally, more of the other countries would just bypass the US and work together to fulfill their needs. Another country would take the mantle of superpower and we would probably be much worse off that we are now.

Brittney · Post by **Brittney** » February 23, 2004, 9:10 pm

NOOOOOOOOOOO TAXES! OMG OMG, It would SUCK to have to pay more money to make a better society! Fuck other people just save my ass some Bling so I can buy my new Benz.

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » February 23, 2004, 9:12 pm

Brittney wrote:Bling so I can buy my new Benz.

Not under Seeb's regime! You're an american, you drive american.

Ford Focus for you!

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » February 23, 2004, 9:15 pm

I tend to vote Republican more often than not. However, many of my views are certainly more liberal, such as abortion, gay rights and anti-church involvement.

Pro:

Guns
Choice
Flat tax
Equal rights for all citizens regardless of sex, sexual orientation, national origin or ethnic background
Death Penalty
Border Protection
Military

Anti:

Church-control
PETA and other lefty/righty hate groups
Censorship(PMRC, etc)

All I can think of atm... I guess many of my views make me more middle-road than anything, but that is my choice.

I just don't want to see a whiney "Gore-type" in the oval office.

No, GW isn't my ideal prez, but I doubt there will be one soon. It is sad that we often have to choose a "lesser of two evils", but I am glad the lesser of them is sitting behind the big desk instead of the spineless one.

On a side note, I would like to see a fight to the death between Hillary Clinton, Tipper Gore and Kurt Warner's wife.

Xorian · Post by **Xorian** » February 23, 2004, 9:32 pm

8. Collect what other nations owe us. If you knew that number you'd be amazed.

I think that USA owe a lot of money to other nations too. Dont you think it would start a "money spirale" that wouldnt do aany good, either for USA or for other countries?

Coraz · Post by **Coraz** » February 23, 2004, 9:37 pm

Xoxo most of the money we owe people we owe to the US

And yes, if we called in all our debts from foreign countries it would easily outdo the Great Depression.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » February 23, 2004, 9:50 pm

I am further and further left these days...

My primary rationale

A: both the democratic and republican parties are running on spin rather than issues...

B: Paternalistic foreign policy has consistently entangled us in innumerable pointless conflicts in the developing world guaranteeing that terrorism will continue and prosper the republicans have traditionally tended to espouse these philosophies in the interest of their corporate supporters' who can then continue to strip said countries of natural resources...

You cannot make the world less violent generally by bombing anyone...War is polarizing not uniting...

C: Republican policies have continued the trend towards legislated morality which I strongly believe is antithetical to constitutional principle

D: Libertarian philosphy which is perhaps the most rational and sensible of conservative and curiously the farthest right espouses economic policies which if everyone were equal would probably be functional...but given the current weatlh structure would result in more economic class polarization

E: Conservation and restoration of the environment continues be a huge personal concern of mine...The right fails consistently to address responsible management and conservation policies...Republicans typically sell out to corporate cronyism selling the environment wholesale to the highest donator (ermmm bidder)...Libertarians tend to redress environmental concerns with recourse to the "best scientific evidence says" theory without regard to the nature of current scientific funding schemas...they also ignore the inherently conservative nature of scientific research...We as a nation have a long history of embracing technology to the detriment of the rest of the natural world...The "needs" of economic expansion outweighing the potential long term environmental impact of said expansion...We as a nation have almost no prairie left, we have almost no swamp, we have very little actually clean water, our air is among the most polluted on earth...We continue to see growth in the incidence and or severity of environmental illness and instead of suing the known producers of toxins in causing these illnesses we bitch about the rising cost of health care and insurance rates...It is time we practice prophylaxis as opposed to reactive measures...When you have lost your teeth its a bit late to worry about brushing them and you will not get them back...

F: Reasonable dissent is absolutely necessary to the viability of democracy...We are becoming for a lack of a better word a populacracy...A country ruled by who is popular not by who's ideas are better...I will not die nor do I expect anyone else to give their life for what is popular...

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 23, 2004, 9:53 pm

I'd be interested to hear someone offer a well reasoned, rational argument for a flat tax.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » February 23, 2004, 9:55 pm

I identify more with democrats because they represent a more liberal ideology. It comes down to being able to change and adapt the way you think. Conservatives in general have a very pessimistic outlook on changing the way things are. They assume and expect the worse, while liberals tend to embrace change with the hope of gaining something beneficial from it.

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » February 23, 2004, 11:11 pm

I'm socially liberal.
I'm fiscally conservative.

I usually vote Democrat because at least they are socially liberal. The Repubs are neither of the above these days.

Some policy points at random:
1. We should generally have a balanced budget.
2. The money we do have should be prioritized towards social programs including education, health care, and the social safety net.
3. I'm pro-choice, pro-marriage for everyone, and pro-immigration.
4. Progressive income taxes are fair.
5. Flat taxes (including sales taxes on basic goods) are obscenely unfair to those living on the margin.
6. Free trade is good for the US. A flexible workforce is absolutely necessary in 21st century and must be fostered by making education and re-training accessible and affordable.
7. STOP FUCKING SPENDING MY SOCIAL SECURITY ON EARMARKS AND STAR WARS.
8. I'm about ready to write off Israel.

edit: grammar

Avestan · Post by **Avestan** » February 23, 2004, 11:14 pm

I am not going to make an argument for a flat tax, but I will argue why there should be no new taxes.

First of all, anyone who has any economic background should be able to grasp the idea that a surplus is not a good thing. Stagnant money is wasted money and is doing nothing for the country or the world. You want all of your resources working for you and not sitting in a vault.

Secondly, anyone with a business background (at least a successful business background) will tell you that the very last thing you do to solve a problem is throw money at it. That can mean hiring people, buying equipment, leasing extra space, etc.. Doing this kills any organization because is creates waste and Bureaucracy. We have the means to cut our budget and keep necesary programs. The amount of waste in the government is staggering and the only thing we will do by throwing more money at our problems is to create more waste and in the end more problems.

Yes, people will be fired. Yes, programs will be cut. True, social security or health care may take a hit, but all of this does not go without reward. The money not spent in taxes goes directly to the people who generated it in the first place. I am a very strong believer that I should not have to pay a significantly higher percentage of my income simply because I work my ass off and make much more than the average person. That being said, I am happy to do so because I know the alternative is not realistic. Taxes are not slanted to give advantage to the ultra-rich, but with the exception of Hollywood and heirs, the rich have generally deserved what they have and should be able to do with it as they choose.

I heard some moron on the radio out here in California yesterday saying that the federal government should bail out California for its problems and that Bush was a bastard because he would not do so. How do you think Joe Blow in West Virginia feels about that solution? It amazes me how people cannot accept responsibility for their actions in this world.

I personally believe that the educational system in the United States is a failure almost entirely because of the gigantic bureaucracy that runs it and this lack of responsibility.

There is no accountability in our system and the teachers unions strive to make less every day. Good teachers should make good money and bad teachers should get fired, not survive in a system where it is impossible to make them accountable. Individual schools should have the power to discipline their students and run their schools how they see fit. In response, students and parents should be able to choose which school they attend and not be forced into a sub-par education because of where they live.

I realize that there are people in this world who cannot care for themselves and we need to account for them. It is also our duty to protect these people, but at the same time, try to get them to a point of self-sustainability. Either through education or work programs or medical resources, it should always be a goal of ours to help those who cannot help themselves and in turn punish those who would try to destroy the lives and dreams of others.

I realize that is a little dreamy, but I believe we have to be strong as a country and demand accoutability wherever possible. Internally, this means demanding results in schools, courts, police stations, and the freaking DMV. Externally, this means protection ourselves and those who cannot protect themselves. We do not want to take over the world, but we do have a responsibility to keep it safe. History has shown us too many times that while in a perfect world, every country could be left to its own devices, this inevitably leads to total war and destruction of entire peoples. If we can find and eliminate or at least restrain the people who would perpretrate these actions, we are doing a service to ourselves and the rest of thw world (even if they do not see it that way).

I am a republican. Not because the party matches my views perfectly, but because it is the closest thing out there by far. I am a realist and know that everyone does not think like me and in the end, all solutions have to take a little from everyone's viewpoints if they are to succeed. This included ultra left wing liberals and the far right conservatives. I hope the compromise lies somewhere in the realm of fiscal responsibility an aggressive stances towards our economy and international politics. I believe the republican party currently represents me best in these items.

Stan

QED

Midnyte_Ragebringer · February 23, 2004, 11:32 pm

I am registered Republican and have voted Republican every election for the past 14 years.

However, I hate political parties and dream(here I go dreaming again) of a day when we don't have parties. People should be running on their own ideas and just by the big two conglomerate parties and what the parties tell them they stand for. When a person gets into office they should be doing nothing but trying to better our country and the poeple in it. I see way too much of them arguing, using the media to fight eachother, make eachother look dumb, and very little of them debating the ways they can better our country.

They divide us, instead of unite us.

Because I agree with the basic concept of the republican party I am all that is evil with the republicans. Because, John Doe, supports gay rights, he is all that is evil about the liberals(Democrats). It just sucks.

Why am I a Republican?

I grew up an Air Force Brat. I grew up with military people who taught me the value of patriotism. To respect what it took and continues to take to let me live footloose, fantsy free, and question and degrade the people that provide it for me.

I grew up being taught not to bite the hand that feeds me.

I grew up in a time when Ronald Reagan got shot I cried and so did every one I knew. I wrote a letter the next day to the president wishing him a quick recovery. He, one of his staff, wrote me back. It meant the world to me.

The leader of your country should be one with impecable charisma and passion and patriotism. An undying love for his country and the willingnees to do what may not be political safe, but what he feels is right and just and necessary for his country.

I find that in Bush. I blame the media machine for making him into the bafoon everyone sees him as. He is not the most eloquent speaker, but his heart is pure. He is a rich kid, spoiled during his life, etc etc, but he was there when we needed him.

Reason why I'm not a Democrat?

If it was Clinton/Gore in office during 9-11, I'm afraid what we would have, or most importantly, would not have done.

Seebs · Post by **Seebs** » February 24, 2004, 12:07 am

Voronwe, I was trying to point out that I'm not a lapdog for the Rep Party. Plenty of contradictions in my views.

Heck, I'm catholic and jerk-off .. there you go.

As for the flat tax: I am with Steve Forbes on this one. Close the loopholes and shelters and we will have more of a tax base.

Anyway, just glad there is some decent conversation on this. We are all driven by our life experiences and I'm glad to see so many diverse views.

Now get me some spells.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » February 24, 2004, 12:10 am

I admit it, I voted for Gore. But when 9/11 happened I was really happy that Bush was in office. Now, I am afraid that Bush is in office. I am really not feeling safe about mine and my family's future in regards to jobs and potential wars. Bush outright scares me now. I see someone that you read about in sci fi novels, the dumb ass politician that gets the planet blown up.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » February 24, 2004, 12:17 am

Mplor wrote:I'm socially liberal.
I'm fiscally conservative.

I usually vote Democrat because at least they are socially liberal. The Repubs are neither of the above these days.

Some policy points at random:
1. We should generally have a balanced budget.
2. The money we do have should be prioritized towards social programs including education, health care, and the social safety net.
3. I'm pro-choice, pro-marriage for everyone, and pro-immigration.
4. Progressive income taxes are fair.
5. Flat taxes (including sales taxes on basic goods) are obscenely unfair to those living on the margin.
6. Free trade is good for the US. A flexible workforce is absolutely necessary in 21st century and must be fostered by making education and re-training accessible and affordable.
7. STOP FUCKING SPENDING MY SOCIAL SECURITY ON EARMARKS AND STAR WARS.
8. I'm about ready to write off Israel.

edit: grammar

That pretty much sums up my political views as well.

Drolgin Steingrinder · February 24, 2004, 12:37 am

Midnyte wrote:The leader of your country should be one with impecable (sic!) charisma

Why?

I agree with you that passion and ideas should damn well be a requirement for anyone who runs for any sort of public office, but charisma? Why? So people can look at the tv and feel good about having a handsome, square-jawed ditz in office instead of a pug-fugly grumpy visionary?

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » February 24, 2004, 12:42 am

Seebs wrote:As for the flat tax: I am with Steve Forbes on this one. Close the loopholes and shelters and we will have more of a tax base.

That doesn't change the issue of residual income. Not every tax break is a loophole, some are there for a "reason". Yyou know, that whole trickle down thing that has failed during it's entire existence yet still has supporters.

I'm a bit all over the place myself so I understand. I tend to understand why people want less government intervention on social issues, that people feel they spend far too much in taxes because they know the money is being pissed away hand over fist, that free trade should be a two-way street, and that every single chunk of business doesn't have to be sold to the sleaziest congressman.

My wife and I were just talking about this recently; why did we feel ok about Bush in the beginning? Namely, it was because of the real and true way he attached himself to the people suffering from 9-11. There was a reason I didn't vote for Gore (some may actually be surprised about that), he was not genuine and he definitely felt his saint-like background should be presented as a moral authority.

Ironically, Bush is beginning to step into a moral high ground. His posture was to bring the parties together like he would bring all people together. Now he's worried about same sex marriages and prayer in schools and selling major contracts to special interests and not even TRYING to hide it. He's a muttonhead that can't put two thoughts together that are unscripted.

He was good to have for comfort during 9-11 because you know that if he wasn't privileged, he'd probably be a firefighter, and people could could sense that. But again, he's spending like a banshee, taking away personal rights up and down the page, and burying our fiscal future. It doesn't matter if it's his moronic cabinet or him, it all falls under his administration.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · February 24, 2004, 12:44 am

Drolgin Steingrinder wrote:
Midnyte wrote:The leader of your country should be one with impecable (sic!) charisma
Why?

I agree with you that passion and ideas should damn well be a requirement for anyone who runs for any sort of public office, but charisma? Why? So people can look at the tv and feel good about having a handsome, square-jawed ditz in office instead of a pug-fugly grumpy visionary?

LOL, dude, charisma isnt just a stat that allows you to sell your wares for a higher price.

cha·ris·ma ( P ) Pronunciation Key (k-rzm)
n. pl. cha·ris·ma·ta (-m-t)

1.
a. A rare personal quality attributed to leaders who arouse fervent popular devotion and enthusiasm.
b. Personal magnetism or charm: a television news program famed for the charisma of its anchors.

2. Christianity. An extraordinary power, such as the ability to perform miracles, granted by the Holy Spirit.

Scratch the Chistianity bullshit one.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » February 24, 2004, 12:48 am

I'm registered as a republican, but some days I'd vote democrat just so I can say it'd be better if we had a republican in (insert office here) out of spite.

What I'm for:
Gun controll. BUT, there is NO reason you need a semi automatic rifle to protect your home. Sorry, there isn't. Same for smg's and machine pistols. Rifle to hunt with is ok, a pistol is workable. There was some talk about "smart guns" like they had in the movie Judge Dredd a few years ago, but I haven't heard anything in the tech areas in the last year+ about it.

Gouging the hell out of major corporations to help balance the damn budget. As much as I am pro-captalism, if you take half of the annual income of the top 5, 10 people in the US and you go a long way to paying off some very large sections of our financial problems.

Pro-Life. Sorry folks. The only way I am in approval of abortions is if the mother's life is in mortal danger. You don't want to have kids? Take a pill, use some latex, whatever. An abortion should not be done just because you got drunk or high and banged some guy without protection. And there is NO WAY IN HELL that a partial birth abortion should be tolerable in modern day society. You give birth halfway to the poor thing, then you kill it? How is this even legal these days?

Balance the budget. Once you finish balancing it, start making a profit on it. Can you imagine the good we'd do for the nation if we started turning a profit? I have no problem with the US incorporating a few doing-well corporations and using the funds from them to assist in other key areas. And in some cases, it's not like we could do worse managing them than what they're being managed by now.

Educate the kids. All the kids. Standardized tests for teachers, and if the teachers don't pass, fire them. I've seen teachers and I've read about teachers that I *know* I can teach better than they can...

Close the borders to immigrants. This may sound hateful, but we have enough trouble taking car eof the people we have right now without having to take care of the thousands that come to our shores every day.

Invade Cuba. Just get it done. Its like this annoying little island that we keep siphoning the population off of whenever the sun's out.

Drill oil. Any oil. Anywhere. If we have it, use it. Drive down oil prices and expand research into alternate fuel transportation. And while you're at it, kill the damn patents that the big oil companies bought up to prevent AFT for as long as they have.

Either pull out of Iraq and Afghanastan, or put a flag over it. We're putting too much effort into those two regions and getting little more than bodybags out of it. Either pull out and let them self descrut on their own, or take it over and dominate the fuel market for the world (the latter of which will not make most of teh world happy withus, not like they are now...)

Make the draft a requirement. There are so many people in this country (myself included) that 1, 2 years in the military would do wonders for it's not funny. It would also have the benifit of training each american citizen how to defend themselves and how to react incase of a terrorist attack or worse.

Rewrite the voting system. The year 2000's election problems proved this. It needs to change.

Restructure the appeals system. 2 appeals is enough, isn't it? If you're found guilty 3 times.. you're guilty!

Mandatory DNA tests on all prisoners serving terms in which DNA would be a factor had it been available for testing at the time. Set the innocent free.

If you kill someone, you die. If you rape someone in a brutal, violent fashion, you die. If you molest or abuse a child, you die. There is no excuse for molestation or rape. A few excues for murder - but that's what justifiable homicide is for. The world would end up a happier place if those people were gone... and don't bother wiping the needle off, do it industrial style.

Equal rights, not extra rights. Colleges and buisnesses shouldn't have to screen applicants to make sure they can fill their annual quota.

Lock down the border. We don't need more illegals. I feel sorry for them, but we haven't had the chance to see to the people we already have over here.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » February 24, 2004, 12:50 am

I grew up in a time when Ronald Reagan got shot I cried and so did every one I knew.

I crossed my fingers

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » February 24, 2004, 1:02 am

I grew up in a time when Ronald Reagan got shot I cried and so did every one I knew.

I was terrified when Al Haig announced that he was in control...because I knew who was supposed to be...

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » February 24, 2004, 1:15 am

Lalanae wrote:
I grew up in a time when Ronald Reagan got shot I cried and so did every one I knew.
I crossed my fingers

Hahaha

Taly · Post by **Taly** » February 24, 2004, 1:32 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I
If it was Clinton/Gore in office during 9-11, I'm afraid what we would have, or most importantly, would not have done.

Or more we would have lost...........

I am glad those two were not in office during that time, And it's Clinton that makes me happy a president can only serve 2 terms LOL.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 24, 2004, 1:36 am

I'm a registered independent.

Socially, I'm as far left as can be.
Economically, I'm pretty squarely moderate.
In terms of foreign policy, I lean a little liberal.

I agree with those on both the right and the left who point out problem areas in society. The left says we have a problem in Iraq. I agree. But, despite how shameful Bush's actions may be, pulling out now will not help anything. We've created a problem and we have a responsibility to deal with it, so we need to remain to expedite a transition to stable Iraqi rule. This should be our only priority in Iraq.

The right says that we waste money on welfare. The right is correct. Drastically cutting welfare programs will not help the situation, and neither will throwing money at it. What we need to do is objectively evaluate the situation, find where money is being wasted, and redirect it to more productive ends. Are people wasting away on welfare without getting jobs? How about cutting the time limits of welfare eligibility in return for government provided education or skill training?

These situations occur far too often, where it seems politicians are unable to think of options beyond "cut everything" or "throw money at it." What we need is objectivity and reason. We need to simply fix what's broken.

I agree with all of the numerated points that Mplor made.

I am pro-choice, for reasons I could go into but prefer not to because I hate abortion fights.

I am pro sensible gun control. I don't oppose banning guns by any means, but I do support accountability and safety measures.

We should normalize relations with Cuba. It's the 21st century now. Aren't we done demonizing the commies yet?

Generally, I support democrats, because I find their social policy, though lacking, far more appealing than the republicans. Too many republicans support government imposition of religion, restrictions on speech, restrictions on civil rights, and so forth. While I don't particularly like the economic policies of either party, I think the democrats generally do a better job sending money to the correct causes (note that better does not imply good), even though they're hopelessly inefficient at spending it properly. I find that the republicans are too willing to cave at the demands of corporate and interest group constituents. The democrats sometimes at least pretend to put up a fight.

On education: the no child left behind act is, in my estimation, the worst of all the things Bush has done. It is a gigantic misinterpretation of reality. Accountability is fine, but sensible accountability is essential. Teacher quality cannot be measured by arbitrary standardized tests that fail to take into account all sorts of extraneous factors. We need to help lower achieving (read: lower income) school districts by intelligently redistributing resources to aid them. I would likely vote for a candidate for the sole reason being that they opposed the no child left behind act.

Arundel Pajo · Post by **Arundel Pajo** » February 24, 2004, 1:40 am

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » February 24, 2004, 1:40 am

Dang... While I want to post a book and probably will anyway many of my views can be summed up by Voronwe, Aranuil and, on a few points, Akaran

I grew up in the Republican stronghold of Arkansas. Both my parents were strong democrats and had been their entire life. While many of my views in regards to social issues were more liberal I tended to be more economically conservative. I guess I was buying into the whole Regan era stuff... I voted for Bush Sr. in 1988, my first election. There wasn't really any other choice.

Once in college I became more active in the State Republican party. Eventually getting to the point where I was asked to take over leadership of the Collge Republicans of Arkansas, yes I would have been over one of Seeb's chapters.

During that time though I was growing... As my Dad was a History Teacher before becoming a Psychologist I knew more about it than most people will ever want or need to. I had studied ideologies and been an affiliate member of the American Psychological Association since 10th grade. Reading more philosophy, more indepth studies on Communism, Fascism and Democracy and human nature I was begining to realize I didn't agree with everything many of those around me.

Back to the party... so I attend a prelemiary meeting in Little Rock with a number of people I have known from State Studen Govenment for years to discuss this "leadership" possibility. The meeting itself is rather long and the more people who get up to speak, the angrier I become. At this "high-level" meeting I began to see what was REALLY driving everything. Money... no thoughts about anyone, children, the elderly whomever... it was all about money.

Now don't get me wrong, even then I wasn't stupid enough to think that any other large political body would be that different but just as I thought I could try to deal with what they were saying someone told a "humourous story". A joke about a Disabled person, possibly a Vet, who was asking for money in Chicago after a recent political rally. As I wasn't really sure where this as going I listened carefully... the person summed up the story with "let some pink-o leftest liberal give you a dollar, they will be out right behind us."

Sure the guy might have been a scam artist... or he may have been disabled because he was wounded in combat. But these people didn't know and didn't care, the final statement summed up everthing I had heard during the course of the evening. I got up, left the building and became a democrat the next day.

I know now as I realized then that in many ways no one "party" is better than the other... but there ARE some ways that they are different. I voted for Bush in 2000 because I too felt Gore was too out of touch and because I wanted more balance on the Supreme Court... WANTED BALANCE is the key which I don' t really think I got. Anyway, I think he handled 911 very well but the homeland security stuff scares the crap out of me.

Growing up I LOVED WWII, as most boys do we played "army" a lot in the neighborhood. I was always amazed how a superior force could loose a war. That's right, Germany WAS the superior force in WWII but made some very critical and stupid mistakes. Technology and power can only take you so far... While a year and a half ago I use to joke at the comparisons to Hilter about Bush those old threads now scare me...

Holding American Citizens without a trial because they are "suspected" of terrorism. WAKE UP PEOPLE! The entire country should be up in ARMS about this crap. We are setting around worried about Gay marriage while AMERICAN CITIZENS are being held without a trial... let me say that one more time, AMERICAN CITIZENS are being held without a trial and without even being charged with a crime. Because they "suspected terrorists" friends that should scare you because people are turing a blind eye...

That along with the blatent corruption in regards to Haliburton etc... show Bush's true colors...

There is a joke a guy tells, at Church nonethelsss, that goes like this...
"If you aren't a liberal when you are 20, you have no heart. And if you aren't a Republican when you are 40 you have no brain"

My version is actually a little different, I like the first sentence but would change the second to say "If you aren't a Republican when you're 40 then you haven't become a greedy rat-fink bastard" just sounds catchy to me

I'm not perfect but forgiven, I call myself a Christian or better yet, a follower of Christ. Read the Bible, Jesus was a Liberal plain and simple with radical new ideas about the Kingdom of God. He cared for everyone and turned no one away... that is the person I want to be like at any age... although I usually don't do a very good job. However I will continue to try as long as I'm here. Taking care of one another IS the principal point of Christanity. In my opinion it's the Democrats who represent the desire to take care of one another, our home and our children. The Republican just want to control what you can or can't do... That's one of the main reasons I'm a Democrat.

Marb

PS - But remember, nothing is totally pure, I think we should always keep our eyes open no matter who is in power.

Drolgin Steingrinder · February 24, 2004, 1:45 am

I thank you, Midnyte, for attempting to teach poor little me the meaning of words.

You still didn't answer my question, though. Why is charisma a necessary quality? My question and my example still stands.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 24, 2004, 2:10 am

I grew up in a time when Ronald Reagan got shot I cried and so did every one I knew.

I miss Reagan!

"I am not worried about the deficit. It is big enough to take care of itself."

"I have left orders to be awakened at any time in case of national emergency — even if I'm in a Cabinet meeting."

"They say hard work never hurt anybody, but I figure why take the chance."

"My fellow Americans. I'm pleased to announce that I've signed legislation outlawing the Soviet Union. We begin bombing in five minutes." –joking during a mike check before his Saturday radio broadcast

'Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
-Ronald Reagan

Freedom is a fragile thing and is never more than one generation away from extinction. It is not ours by inheritance; it must be fought for and defended constantly by each generation, for it comes only once to a people. Those who have known freedom, and then lost it, have never known it again.
-Ronald Reagan

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » February 24, 2004, 2:41 am

Errrm no individual url or email here please thanks...though the email marketing associations will love you long time...

Estrosiath · Post by **Estrosiath** » February 24, 2004, 3:14 am

Abortion is really a non-issue. Do you think a woman that wants to get an abortion somewhere where it is illegal will not have one? Of course not. By outlawing abortions, the only thing you do is promote backstreet abortions, where the woman is also at risk. If you think "Hehe, serves her right for doing it!", then you need help. I am very much for abortion if a woman was raped. And yes, I do realize and am very much against abortion when done because "I don't want to have a baby", but people simply have to understand if someone wants to abort, they will. There are also various other arguments - if she can't abort, she'll probably just kill the baby as soon as it is born and dump it away. And sorry to say, it's damn hard to find such a corpse.
In an ideal world, people who don't want to have babies use contraception. In our world, dumb people have sex, unfortunately.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » February 24, 2004, 3:47 am

Winnow wrote:
I grew up in a time when Ronald Reagan got shot I cried and so did every one I knew.
I miss Reagan!

"I am not worried about the deficit. It is big enough to take care of itself."

"I have left orders to be awakened at any time in case of national emergency — even if I'm in a Cabinet meeting."

"They say hard work never hurt anybody, but I figure why take the chance."

"My fellow Americans. I'm pleased to announce that I've signed legislation outlawing the Soviet Union. We begin bombing in five minutes." –joking during a mike check before his Saturday radio broadcast

'Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
-Ronald Reagan

Freedom is a fragile thing and is never more than one generation away from extinction. It is not ours by inheritance; it must be fought for and defended constantly by each generation, for it comes only once to a people. Those who have known freedom, and then lost it, have never known it again.
-Ronald Reagan

ok, that's it. you are dead to me.

TheDarkreigns · Post by **TheDarkreigns** » February 24, 2004, 4:12 am

I'm a Canadian Asshole who doesn't vote!

EH!

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » February 24, 2004, 4:23 am

Arborealus wrote:E: Conservation and restoration of the environment continues be a huge personal concern of mine...The right fails consistently to address responsible management and conservation policies...Republicans typically sell out to corporate cronyism selling the environment wholesale to the highest donator (ermmm bidder)...Libertarians tend to redress environmental concerns with recourse to the "best scientific evidence says" theory without regard to the nature of current scientific funding schemas...they also ignore the inherently conservative nature of scientific research...We as a nation have a long history of embracing technology to the detriment of the rest of the natural world...The "needs" of economic expansion outweighing the potential long term environmental impact of said expansion...We as a nation have almost no prairie left, we have almost no swamp, we have very little actually clean water, our air is among the most polluted on earth...We continue to see growth in the incidence and or severity of environmental illness and instead of suing the known producers of toxins in causing these illnesses we bitch about the rising cost of health care and insurance rates...It is time we practice prophylaxis as opposed to reactive measures...When you have lost your teeth its a bit late to worry about brushing them and you will not get them back...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... nvironment

For those who tout "family values" as important in political representation, consider how this will affect your children. The Republican party doesn't give a shit about your kids.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 24, 2004, 7:20 am

Lalanae wrote:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... nvironment

For those who tout "family values" as important in political representation, consider how this will affect your children. The Republican party doesn't give a shit about your kids.

There's evidence that we are nearing an ice age rapidly. While a resulting ice age will be catastrophic in Europe and globally, I don't believe it has much at all to do with humans messing up the ecosystem. It's a regular pattern of roughly 10 thousand years between ice ages and we are overdue for the next cycling into an ice age.

What plan do the Democrats or any candidate have in place to prevent a possible Ice Age in Europe within the next 20 years? The report doesn't list things that are preventable. This is mother nature taking its course.

Environmental disasters scare me to death. I'm all for alternative fuel, conservation and anything else that may help on a small scale but what this report is discussing isn't preventable.

Everytime I use water in my home I'm amazed that it works. Our hydraulic systems, electic systems, and food distribution all seem so fragile to me.

As a direct example, the main gas line into Phoenix from Tucson Arizona burst this summer and within 2 days 75 percent of the gas stations were out of gas. Cars were wrapped around the block at the few stations that had gas and fuel trucks were tailed to their destinations. It was like reliving the late 70's gas shortage in California all over again for me. A burst pipeline and 48 hours is all it took to bring the Phoenix metro area close to chaos for more than a week.

Las Vegas has about 2 days worth of food available at any time. While desert cities may be extreme examples, it's clear that we live on the edge of disaser daily.

I would very much like to vote for a candidate that will make changes but I'm also aware of how the world works and know that there is no miracle cure.

I wouldn't say republicans don't care about their children. Like everything else in politics, if you think any candidate has a magic wand that will convince all the mega rich oil barrons that they should be spending their money on research and development for alternative fuel to put themselves out of business then throw my vote in the ballot box along with yours.

I'm a strong optimist on just about everything but when it comes to 10 or 20 years down the road from now, I cringe at the possible scenarios.
----------------

While I joke about missing Reagan and post mostly his funny quotes, I don't seriously want him back as president (even if he was still mentally fit) A hectic day at work results in less serious posts here on VV to let off steam as I have a minute here and there to quickly view the board and no time for serious thought.

I don't see much hope in preventing global catastophies in the near future because I believe they are completely our of our conrol. Pole shifts, huge earthquakes, volcanoes, ice age cycles, droughts, comets hitting the earth...there is very little that can be done on a scale of 20 years for most of these things.

I will happily listen to anyone that is searching for solutions. I would love to see a push to replace our aging power grids put on the high priority list for example. Who out there has a no bullshit plan to make an impact and isn't just talking out of their ass?

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » February 24, 2004, 8:22 am

What plan do the Democrats or any candidate have in place to prevent a possible Ice Age in Europe within the next 20 years? The report doesn't list things that are preventable. This is mother nature taking its course.

If it wasn't for Bush being in the White House there would have all ready BEEN and ice age and most of you would be TEH DAED!!1