Nietzsche in the music of Marilyn Manson

Deneve · Post by **Deneve** » February 12, 2004, 2:18 am

This was a post I recently made on a MM board and thought I would bring it here for more feedback as the majority of the member-base there is on ADD medication and happens to like loud music...

Rhea Pennell wrote: Disclaimer:
If you intend to reply to this, please read the whole post before subjecting us to your partially formed opinion(s). (This also means no worthless drivel from you 12 year old ADD/OCD fucktards that happen to like loud music.)
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I have noticed two of Marilyn's songs (Rock is Dead/The Beautiful People) are directly related to the writings and philosophy of Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche (pronounced, "Nee-Chee" for those who care), the Prussian philosopher and "higher thinker" of the late 19th century.

-Rock is Dead-
Nietzsche coined the original phrase, "God is Dead."
Have you heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly, "I seek God! I seek God!" As many of those who do not believe in God were standing around just then, he provoked much laughter...
Whither is God," he cried. "I shall tell you. We have killed him - you and I. All of us are murderers.... God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him...
Friedrich Nietzsche. The Gay Science (1882), section 126
Which symbolized his belief that God and religion were outdated concepts that have been discarded by humanity after their use of it to form some moral standards by which to survive. The title of the song alone draws a parallel between the song and Nietzsche's phrase. Beyond that the line, "God is in the TV" projects the belief of Nietzsche that God is in whatever society feels fitting, the modern popular form of media being television. Beyond that I was unable to positively identidy anything directly related, and prefer to avoid abstract philosophy. Though I am hoping that someone else here has read Nietzsche and may be able to find some other relations.

-The Beautiful People-
Nietzsche had a perspective on the overman, aka, the Übermensch. The video puts Marilyn up on stilts above the masses as an overman, the superior entity of the future. Nietzsche in his book Thus spoke Zarathustra:
"I teach you the overman. Man is something that shall be overcome. What have you done to overcome him?
All beings so far have created something beyond themselves; and do you want to be the ebb of this great flood and even go back to the beasts rather than overcome man? What is the ape to man? A laughingstock or a painful embarrassment. And man shall be just that for the overman: a laughingstock or a painful embarrassment..."
Thus validating Marilyn's lyrics:
"Hey you what do you see?
something beautiful something free?
hey you, are you trying to be mean?
if you live with apes man, it's hard to be clean"
As direct reference to Nietzsche's speaking of apes being an embarassment to humans erego humans will be an embarassment to the future Übermensch.

Also, Marilyn's lyrics validate Nietzsche's theory that the apes, thus humans, etc. are necessary links to creating the future, "evolved" beings:
"I don't want you and I don't need you
don't bother to resist I'll beat you
It's not your fault that you're always wrong
the weak ones are there to justify the strong"
Showing that at the time humans don't really want or need apes to survive as the Übermensch will not want or need humans after we have given "birth" to them.

With all of this philosophy now connected, you may have realized that Marilyn has not taken and stand for or against the Übermensch. That is shown here:
"...there's no time to discriminate,
hate every motherfucker
that's in your way
the worms will live in every host
it's hard to pick which one they eat most
the horrible people, the horrible people
it's as anatomic as the size of your steeple
capitalism has made it this way,
old-fashioned fascism
will take it away..."
Suggesting that humans stop the evolution and development of the Übermensch and stop discriminating between them and the masses. To hate equally, showing Marilyn set to dragging the "overman" down to the masses. The consumtion by worms indicates that there will be innate flaws within even the Übermensch as have been seen at humans, and right now the precursors of the Übermensch have their own set of "issues" that consume them. The line, "it's as anatomic as the size of your steeple" refers to these possible precursors of the Übermensch. The anatomic power; the woman with the large breasts gets out of their speeding ticket while the average build still gets stuck with it, the man with the burly muscular build gets the woman with the large breasts etc. It becomes a cycle that in theory will eventually totally seperate humanity into inferior and superior social sects: the masses and the precursors of the Übermensch. Capitalism has allowed this kind of seperation to occur, but in a fascist society (this may be related to the fact that Prussia, Nietzsche's homeland, was one of the first to fall to the Third Reich) there really isn't any allowable seperation of society except for the political leaders. Indiscriminate hate (or love in theory).

Also Marilyn may hope himself to be a form on Nietzsche's "Last Man." The end of human productivity, the most despicable man:
"I say unto you: one must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. I say unto you: you still have chaos in yourselves.
Alas, the time is coming when man will no longer give birth to a star. Alas, the time of the most despicable man is coming, he that is no longer able to despise himself. Behold, I show you the last man.
'What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star?' thus asks the last man, and blinks.
The earth has become small, and on it hops the last man, who makes everything small. His race is as ineradicable as the flea; the last man lives longest..."
If anyone else has found anything else in this or any of Marilyn's works relating the works of Friedrich Nietzsche please make it known.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » February 12, 2004, 6:46 am

Fucking goths. . .

Deneve · Post by **Deneve** » February 14, 2004, 2:45 am

vn_Tanc wrote:Fucking goths. . .

Goth? Hardly...I rarely if ever were anything black, no long hair, nails, jewlery, etc. whatsoever (I'm a big fan of opera as well)...if you doubt me I can have this backed up. I just like the fact that someone in the rock genere aside from Tool or APC has some intelligent thought behind their music and happen to have some interest in philosophy as well. Also, what's your issue with goths? I generally don't think much of them; except that their clothes are assinine.

miir · Post by **miir** » February 14, 2004, 7:55 pm

Regardless if you like or dislike his music, Marilyn Manson is a pretty intelligent and well educated guy.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » February 15, 2004, 11:13 am

I just think it's funny that a group that only got together to see how far they could push the envelope have been as successful as they have. Do I like them? yeah. Do I like everything they do? no. Am I a Goth? um, HAHAHAHA. No

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » February 16, 2004, 7:06 am

I was just being flippant. I have quite a lot of respect for MM cos he's a fucking freak who pisses off middle america and some of his music is pretty good.
But that said, "noticing" that music aimed at the "disaffected", the "tortured souls", has parallels with the works of one of the world's most pissed off, fuck-you philosophers, kinda made me think "well, duh"

And whether or not you're a Goth, posting huge tracts dissecting the lyrics of Manson as regards philosophical parallels is a very Goth thing to do

All IMHO naturally

Deneve · Post by **Deneve** » February 16, 2004, 12:17 pm

vn_Tanc wrote:I was just being flippant. I have quite a lot of respect for MM cos he's a fucking freak who pisses off middle america and some of his music is pretty good.
But that said, "noticing" that music aimed at the "disaffected", the "tortured souls", has parallels with the works of one of the world's most pissed off, fuck-you philosophers, kinda made me think "well, duh"

And whether or not you're a Goth, posting huge tracts dissecting the lyrics of Manson as regards philosophical parallels is a very Goth thing to do

All IMHO naturally

I'll take that I guess. And yeah, it does seem logical that the music would follow Nietzsche, but up until recently I assumed that Marilyn pulled all of his lyrics out of his own ass. Finding they came from an earlier philosopher was kind of suprising at first and the more I learn about both parties the more sense it makes. I suppose this post was aimed more or less at the individuals who just label MM as a "shock-rocker" with some unresolved childhood issues.

Psyloche · Post by **Psyloche** » February 16, 2004, 12:56 pm

Whether he's a smart person or puts a lot of thought into his lyrics, I have nfc. I will say that his music like pollution to my ears so I'll never know. Ofcourse I listen to rap and more than half those lyrics are retarded anyway, much

for good beats though. Actually, I think I heard one of his songs without lyrics, and I might have liked it.