Sad day for free speech

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Chmee
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Sad day for free speech

Post by Chmee »

http://www.cato.org/dispatch/12-10-03d.html#1

High Court Upholds Campaign Finance Law
"A sharply divided Supreme Court upheld key features of the nation's new law intended to lessen the influence of money in politics, ruling today that the government may ban unlimited donations to political parties," The Associated Press reports.

"Those donations, called 'soft money,' had become a mainstay of modern political campaigns, used to rally voters to the polls and to pay for sharply worded television ads."

Cato filed an amicus brief in the Supreme Court case, available here.

John Samples, director of Cato's Center for Representative Government, made the following comments on today's decision: "Today is a sad day for freedom of speech and political activity. In the past, the Supreme Court has enforced real, though imperfect, limits on the power of Congress to regulate political speech.

"Far from protecting political freedom, a slim majority of the Court has now expanded the power of Congress to regulate and to harass individuals and groups who criticize incumbents. The question remains whether the Court in the future will enforce any constitutional protections for the funding of political activity challenging the Congressional status quo."

More thoughts on it.

http://www.reason.com/links/links121003.shtml

Commentary on the court decision prior to the appeal to the supreme court.

http://www.reason.com/links/links050603.shtml
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Post by Sionistic »

So, whats wrong with big companies no longer (or at least not so easily) able to gain influence over people in power through money?
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Post by Xyun »

Oh no! the NRA can't give the republican party $200 million. boo hoo.
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Post by Psyloche »

Somebody translate what that said so smrt people can understand. AFAIK it said that basically Congress can tell people criticizing the Lobbyists to stfu. I hate politics, I'm too smrt for that.
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Post by Mak »

Xyun wrote:Oh no! the NRA can't give the republican party $200 million. boo hoo.
Unless they are successful in purchasing a newspaper or radio station, and thus becoming a news organization, which is exempt from the law.
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Post by Voronwë »

yeah, i think we should make the US government even MORE for sale to the highest bidder.
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Post by kyoukan »

what does free speech have to do with huge corporations and lobbies being able to buy their own politician? this would effectively be a score in favor of free speech because theoretically the little guy's vote will now be worth more. of course what's going to happen is that politicians are just going to have to take more under the table bribes if they want to be bought.
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Post by Forthe »

How is freedom of speech related to contributions to political parties?
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Post by Voronwë »

some politicians whose campaigns benefit from massive corporate contributions use the "free speech" label on the contributions as a way to try to get ordinary people to relate to issue.

cause who is opposed to "free speech?"

if this is "free speech" it must be Good For America!

it is very important for our government to act in a manner that encourages a vibrant economy. But it is probably more important for the government to act in the interests of its citizenry at large over specific corporations, industry blocks, or quasi-political groups (NRA, etc.).

Just look at the manner in which Bush is raking in campaign contributions at $5k a plate fundraising dinners left and right. to me that says there is something seriously imbalanced in the manner in which our government operates.

Access to the government of a democratic nation should not be bought and sold.
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Post by Winnow »

Voronwë wrote:
Access to the government of a democratic nation should not be bought and sold.
Agreed. You need only research the ties between presidents, our war machine and oil to understand that changes are in order. If our high ranking politicians had ties to the hydrogen fuel cell industry we'd be out of this mess!
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Post by Chmee »

Its bad because it restricts free speech and diminishes our rights as defined by the Constitution.

I haven't had a chance to do more than skim the court's opinion, and a while since I have read up on the issue so hopefully I get the details right.

In 1975 the Supreme court in the Buckley v. Valeo decision stated that the government could restrict contributions to elections. However the restrictions had a narrow focus, specifically they applied to "express advocacy" advertising. Express advocacy ads spoke directly about supporting, or not supporting, a particular candidate. Generally speaking the test that was applied was if the ad contained "magic words" specifically speaking "Elect" or "Vote for". The restrictions did not apply though to issue ads, ads speaking about issues, even those that pertain to candidates. The money that was subject to the restrictions was termed "hard money", the unrestricted money was termed "soft money". For example if you had an ad that state "We like Bush, Vote for him" or "Dean is our man, Elect Dean", these would both fall into the express advocacy bucket, the money associated with them would be considered hard money and subject to the restrictions. On the other hand if you had ads that stated "Bush has raised government spending and greatly increased the deficit" or "Dean wants to re-regulate industries which will have a negative impact on the economy", these would be termed issue ads, and would go in the soft money bucket and not be subject to restrictions (note I termed both of the issue ads in negative terms but that doesn't have to be the case, you can talk about the candidates in positive relation to some issue. Its just a lot easier, for me at least, to think up negative comments about the current crop of candidates :)). Soft money also was generally used for some other activities like get out the vote drives.

In my opinion Buckley v. Valeo was wrong, last time I looked at the First Amendment it read ...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free

exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people

peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
It doesn't say anything about "magic words" or "express advocacy" or "issue advocacy", its says "Congress shall make no law ...". As such, the restrictions should be unconstitional. Yes we are talking about donations, ie money. However, if freedom of speech does not mean that the government can not restrict your access to ways to distribute you speech then its not much of a protection. But at least in Buckley, wrong though it was in my opinion, the restriction was narrowly focused.

In the latest ruling, the court was judging the constituationality of the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act which among other things, sought to restrict soft money as well as hard money. The majority decided that there wasn't really any substantial difference between the express advocacy and issue ads (this much is understandable at least) and then ruled that the restrictions could be extended to soft money as well. At least that is my understanding of the basic reasoning, as I said earlier, I was only able to skim the opinion. In my opinion this greatly decreases our ability to engage in free speech and political discourse and weakens our constitutional rights.

The ones who benefit most from the decision of course are the incumbents. Anyone currently in office already gets exposure during their time in office. Any restrictions in the amount of money that can be spent on campaigns increases the value of that exposure, improving their chances of being re-elected. The media also benefits since they are not counted towards the spending limits.
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Post by Voronwë »

i dont agree that campaign contributions are "speech".

there are plenty of laws that restrict how money can be used. You can argue that anything you spend money on is "speech", tacitly endorsing a company, its product, etc.

It is illegal to give money to "charities" that have terrorist ties correct? is that an unconstituional law as well?

just because the money is used to buy media time does not mean that the same laws that govern the content of that media govern the financial transactions that led to its purchase.

speech may be free, but television spots cost a lot of money ;)
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Post by Forthe »

Are individual citizens restricted from purchasing ads supporting or attacking politicians by this law? While I personally wouldn't be against such rules as I basicly believe no vote should be > than another this would IMO go against your constitution.

Political donations != speech.

Also, do corporate entities have constitutional rights? If not then free speech does not apply to corporate donations.
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Post by Marbus »

I agree with Voronwe, nuff said.

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Post by Chmee »

The restrictions are being made on the money if it is used to make certain kinds of politcal speech. How is that possibly not a restriction of speech? Communicating ideas cost money. If the government can restrict the money used to communicate those ideas, then the first amendment is effectively dead.

Some commentators are saying the immediate effect wil be to push the money out into other avenues. "Allied" organizations to the main political parties will emerge which will promote the ads. Or interest groups will move to acquire media resources themselves, ie. the NRA looking to aquire a TV or radio station. What will be the real result then? Money will still be spent, with more hurdles to jump through (which of course will impose a heavier burden on smaller political organizations/parties). The campaign finance reform crowd may then go after them. Ultimately, the desire to control campaign finance is incompatible with the first amendment. Julian Sanchez pointed this out in one of the pieces I posted earlier (and yes, for the sarcasm impaired Mr. Sanchez is being quite sarcastic in the piece).

http://www.reason.com/links/links121003.shtml
Abundant loopholes remain, of course. Imagine that Senator X has been a vocal opponent of gun control, and suppose that the electorate is pretty well aware of this fact. Don't advertisements arguing in favor of gun control implicitly condemn the candidate? If the public is sufficiently informed, wouldn't such ads be the functional equivalent of "electioneering," even if the sponsor group scrupulously avoided illegally telling voters about the candidate's voting record on the issue?

Another loophole stems from the unfortunate fact that, as Alexis de Tocqueville noted, "in the United States, there are no licenses for printers, no stamp or registration for newspapers." Perhaps influenced by Justice Hugo Black's trenchant opinion in Mills v. Alabama, Congress wrote into BCRA a "media exemption" which would permit newspapers and news broadcasters to engage in untrammeled, anarchic editorializing... even mentioning candidates by name!

The National Rifle Association has hastened to exploit this loophole. The group already sends out numerous publications to its members, and is considering acquiring a radio or television broadcast station. Therefore, it argues, it is covered under the statutory exemption. Senator John Kerry (D-Mass.) is determined to put a stop to that. Maybe now we'll finally get those licenses and registration stamps to distinguish "real" media outlets.


Of course, the ultimate loophole is the First Amendment itself. As long as "special interests"—that is to say, anyone with a particular issue they're specially concerned with—can broadcast their views to the public, the public may be inclined to vote in accordance with those views. And the threat of depriving politicians of their God-given right to hold office may well give those special interests "undue influence on an officeholder's judgment."

I therefore propose a solution that would, I hope, make Bertrand Russell proud. We must close the First Amendment loophole once and for all, and recognize that constitutional protection of "free expression" should be reserved for copies of Hustler, as the Founders intended, not extended to such dangerous frivolities as the expression of political views.
The whole thing is worth a read (its not that long).
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Post by Forthe »

Chmee wrote:The restrictions are being made on the money if it is used to make certain kinds of politcal speech. How is that possibly not a restriction of speech? Communicating ideas cost money. If the government can restrict the money used to communicate those ideas, then the first amendment is effectively dead.

Some commentators are saying the immediate effect wil be to push the money out into other avenues. "Allied" organizations to the main political parties will emerge which will promote the ads. Or interest groups will move to acquire media resources themselves, ie. the NRA looking to aquire a TV or radio station. What will be the real result then? Money will still be spent, with more hurdles to jump through (which of course will impose a heavier burden on smaller political organizations/parties). The campaign finance reform crowd may then go after them. Ultimately, the desire to control campaign finance is incompatible with the first amendment. Julian Sanchez pointed this out in one of the pieces I posted earlier (and yes, for the sarcasm impaired Mr. Sanchez is being quite sarcastic in the piece).

http://www.reason.com/links/links121003.shtml
Abundant loopholes remain, of course. Imagine that Senator X has been a vocal opponent of gun control, and suppose that the electorate is pretty well aware of this fact. Don't advertisements arguing in favor of gun control implicitly condemn the candidate? If the public is sufficiently informed, wouldn't such ads be the functional equivalent of "electioneering," even if the sponsor group scrupulously avoided illegally telling voters about the candidate's voting record on the issue?

Another loophole stems from the unfortunate fact that, as Alexis de Tocqueville noted, "in the United States, there are no licenses for printers, no stamp or registration for newspapers." Perhaps influenced by Justice Hugo Black's trenchant opinion in Mills v. Alabama, Congress wrote into BCRA a "media exemption" which would permit newspapers and news broadcasters to engage in untrammeled, anarchic editorializing... even mentioning candidates by name!

The National Rifle Association has hastened to exploit this loophole. The group already sends out numerous publications to its members, and is considering acquiring a radio or television broadcast station. Therefore, it argues, it is covered under the statutory exemption. Senator John Kerry (D-Mass.) is determined to put a stop to that. Maybe now we'll finally get those licenses and registration stamps to distinguish "real" media outlets.


Of course, the ultimate loophole is the First Amendment itself. As long as "special interests"—that is to say, anyone with a particular issue they're specially concerned with—can broadcast their views to the public, the public may be inclined to vote in accordance with those views. And the threat of depriving politicians of their God-given right to hold office may well give those special interests "undue influence on an officeholder's judgment."

I therefore propose a solution that would, I hope, make Bertrand Russell proud. We must close the First Amendment loophole once and for all, and recognize that constitutional protection of "free expression" should be reserved for copies of Hustler, as the Founders intended, not extended to such dangerous frivolities as the expression of political views.
The whole thing is worth a read (its not that long).
It may very well be a restriction of free speech. Constitutional rights are not without restrictions. We have cases of conflicting rights, times of crisis (war, disasters, etc) and the current extremely popular national security (interests). And this is where the courts step in and hopefully do the right thing.

This restriction, in its present or some other form, has to be weighed against abuse and corruption of your nation's voting process. You also have to look at the number of people being disenfranchised. How many people (and by people I mean strictly citizens) will this law affect and how severely are they affected? How many people are disenfranchised by a corrupt political system?

If I were you I'd be more concerned with the seemingly public perception of whoever raises the most money will win the election. There is something fundamentally wrong there.
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Post by Arundel Pajo »

On preview....totally what Voro just said.

In addition, this new development will scarcely do anything at all. For decades, the larger companies have gotten around the issue of large corporate campaign contributions by making *personal* contributions rather than corporate ones.

Some CEOs can write large personal checks from their own accounts, especially after financing said checks with a recently received corporate "bonus." You also have the rather unscrupulous (but also rather common) companies that strongly encourage employees to donate personal funds to a certain political pool.

One recent example of this was Enron's contributions to the Bush/Cheney campaign during the last election cycle. As I understand it, management had a rather heavy hand in "encouraging" employees to donate to the Bush campaign, and Enron as a result handed Bush a rather significant chunk of change without raising many eyebrows...

The net result of this new legislation, then, would be that Presidential hopefuls can still rake in corporate cash by the truckload, but now they don't have to listen to the proles whining about them being "bought off" by corporate interests.

Feh.
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Post by Arundel Pajo »

Additionally.... Bollocks to anything that comes out of Cato Center. I'm a far, far cry from being a Republican. Even farther from being a Neo-Con...but Cato Center has a rather large Libertarian chip on their shoulder. They are well known for being sensationalists and taking things way out of context. I take anything they push at me with hell of a lot of salt.
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Post by Deward »

I am sorry to break this to you Arundel but Libertarians are against this bill as well so I would ask you not to give all Libertarians a bad name.

Libertarians believe in smaller government and campaign finance reform and this bill actually hurts our efforts because it limits what we can advertise against the mainstream parties.
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Post by Arundel Pajo »

I'm not at all trying to give Libertarians a bad name, but the fact is that there are Libertarians at the fringe margins just as there are Democrats and Republicans way out on the margins. Cato Center is one such group, and deserves to be viewed with a certain level of skepticism.

Truth be known, if the Libertarians were just a little less all over the map ideologically and politically, they'd be a great party. The official party line is appealing, and for the most part, I would back it...but sorry - they just need to actually get their shit together and be a real presence.
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Post by Voronwë »

The main problem for Libertarians is finding people actually willing to GIVE them money. HOw to spend it is the least of their worries.
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Post by Xzion »

Voronwë wrote:The main problem for Libertarians is finding people actually willing to GIVE them money. HOw to spend it is the least of their worries.
If the majority american people had any knowlage of what the libertarian party stood for, im sure there would be as many of us and democrates and republicans...
if the party had the money, im sure as hell there popularity would skyrocket

We need Clint Eastwood to make a commercial for the party, THAT would be badass 8)
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Post by Mak »

Voronwë wrote:i dont agree that campaign contributions are "speech".
Except for the fact that many of these contributions, adverts, and commercials are from groups that represent an association of people, people that might otherwise not have as strong a voice individually.

A group like the NRA, AARP, NAACP, etc. (regardless of political agenda) has a right to express the will of the people that comprise it's membership.
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Post by Arundel Pajo »

Xzion wrote:If the majority american people had any knowlage of what the libertarian party stood for, im sure there would be as many of us and democrates and republicans...
I'm sure that having every rebellious 15 year old in America who wants to smoke their weed in peace and "stick it to the man" decide to suddenly become vocally Libertarian helps a lot, too.

Not that they bother to research what the party stands for, and I'm sure you think they're jackasses just as much as the rest of us do, but still...
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Post by Arundel Pajo »

Mak wrote:A group like the NRA, AARP, NAACP, etc. (regardless of political agenda) has a right to express the will of the people that comprise it's membership.
Does that apply to R.J. Reynolds, too? And if not, where do you draw the line and how do you enforce it?
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Post by Deward »

The majority of Libertarians are young business owners and professionals. While we do believe that pot should be decriminalized, you are more thinking of the Greens as the 15 year old potheads. Libertarians don't do as well in the elections because we aren't promising every person something. The major parties and greens all promise more government programs or money to people. Libertarians want smaller government. Democrats and Greens want to give every lazy assed welfare mother a free ride so of course they are going to get their vote. Most Libertarians are middle income adults. I have not seen too many "poor" libertarians. In fact, in college I was more of a green. Once I got into the the real world and discovered how much the government was stealing from me, then I became a libertarian.

Also in many states, especially WI, it makes it very difficult to campaign as a third party because of laws enacted by the Republicrats to limit our ability at campaigning. For example, the state doesn't consider tv debates to be a form of campaign contributions and allows the Republicrats to have "free" tv time while the tv stations deny the third parties access.

I guess my main point is that just because a group of people are anti-government, don't lump them all in to the libertarian party. It is crap like that that has made it very difficult for us to overcome the stereotype of our party. We really aren't that radical and you would be surprised how many people actually agree with us. They either just don't vote or are afraid to vote for a third party and allow a worse major party win.
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Post by Voronwë »

those groups can buy advertisements all they want to say "We rule, we are the NRA".

what this legislation restricts is how much money they can give to specific political candidates.

There is absolutely no restriction on the NRA (from what i can see) to buy airtime like any other organization and put a commercial on - as long as the commercial is not endorsing a specific political candidate.

the NRA can buy a whole hour primetime on NBC if they want where they show several vignettes about American patriotism, hunting, family togetherness, all peppered with hollow point rounds and semi-automatic weapons.
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Post by vn_Tanc »

Libertarians want smaller government. . .Most Libertarians are middle income adults. I have not seen too many "poor" libertarians.
So it's basically a nice name for the "We've got enough money so screw you poor people Party"? Pretty much like the Republicans but with less interest in using patronage and special interest groups to fatten your gravy train?

If I'm reading it wrong let me know. . .
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Post by Aabidano »

Chmee, have you actually read the bill itself? It certainly doesn't sound like it. You're repeating someone's spin, which isn't neccesarily reality.

The free speech argument was shot down with very good reason.
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Post by Chmee »

Aabidano wrote:Chmee, have you actually read the bill itself? It certainly doesn't sound like it. You're repeating someone's spin, which isn't neccesarily reality.

The free speech argument was shot down with very good reason.
The law itself comes to 36 pages, the court decision is over 100 with a lot of references and a fair bit of legalese. So no, I haven't read the whole thing. I have skimmed the law and the opinion (and the dissents). But I don't have THAT much free time on my hands. I've also read about campaign finance in general in the past. As I was saying earlier, this doesn't close all the "loopholes" so there are still avenues of speech left, but it is definitely another big step down the slippery slope.
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Post by Chmee »

vn_Tanc wrote:
Libertarians want smaller government. . .Most Libertarians are middle income adults. I have not seen too many "poor" libertarians.
So it's basically a nice name for the "We've got enough money so screw you poor people Party"? Pretty much like the Republicans but with less interest in using patronage and special interest groups to fatten your gravy train?

If I'm reading it wrong let me know. . .
Generally speaking libertarians believe in the primacy of liberty as a goal. That people should be free to pursue there own ends as long as they don't cause harm to other individuals doing so. There is a lot more to it of course, and there are different subgroups and opinions but thats the soundbite version.
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Post by Chmee »

Voronwë wrote: There is absolutely no restriction on the NRA (from what i can see) to buy airtime like any other organization and put a commercial on - as long as the commercial is not endorsing a specific political candidate.
So you have freedom of speech, except for actually being able to talk about the people that we are planning to elect as our representatives in the government?

One more time ...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
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Post by Voronwë »

i can't make a television commercial that says "fuck you".

is that unconstitutional?


if you want to literally interpret the constituion in a purely reduced form, then again, this ruling has nothing to do with "speech" at all.

Nowhere in the first amendment does it say that you have the right to air on publically owned airwaves everything that you are otherwise free to say.

We are all free to speak all sorts of things.

Why do you say that by definition purchased time on broadcast media should be completely bereft of any stipulation on language?

Lets say that the NRA cannot buy television time at all? is that a restriction on its freedom of speech? Does the NRA as a non-individual entity have rights protected by the first amendment? or do the individual members only have those rights? that seems like hair-splitting, but it may be important.

complete unregulated speech does not exist in broadcast media - in at the very least use of profanity, display of certain types of nudity, and a few other things. I would suggest that you do not have a problem with such legislation on those even though in a purely reductionist view, it is a violation of free speech.

I cannot publish a newspaper that demonstrates bomb making techniques, methods to hack government computers, weaknesses in local police enforcement policies, etc. Is that a violation of my right to a free press? no. Now these are more severe in nature than regulations on campaign spending, but i think setting some limit (an extremely high one) on the amount of financial corruption inherent in the system is reasonable.

The people who truly benefit from unfettered campaign spending laws are people who are financially to gain from the companies who can afford such access, as well as those whose ambitions are to impose their ethnic groups' cultural standards on the population at large. It is the persons who favor individual rights who actually benefit from the rulings in question, because they - in some small manner - do not completely marginalize the voices of individuals.

because one cannot convey the exact message they want over broadcast media, that does not mean that they are denied freedom of speech. They are free to publish their own booklets. They are free to hold demonstrations. They are free to stand on street corners saying whatever they want. The first amendment is alive and well.

Nowhere in the constitution does it say anything about any entity have unfettered access to the public's property (broadcast 'air') to use it for whatever political aim that entity may have, and the rest be damned.

Are federal equal time laws unconstitutional to you as well? That media outlets are required to air more than one political candidates views during an election season? is that a violation of free press?

stipulations on how broadcast media can be used do not infringe upon any individual's ability to express themselves fundamentally. It may mean that they do not have the influence they would otherwise want.
The constitution does not guarantee your speech an audience.

it simply guarantees your right to speak. This is preserved by this ruling.
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Post by Zaelath »

Any "common" person, ie the 99.9% of us that can't benefit from political graft, that doesn't support this is either completely stupid or completely fanatical in their belief that the original framers of the US constitution were some kind of gods that knew what was best for people from their time until the end of existence. Oh, except for the constitutional ammendments which they're even MORE vhement about.

Here's a news flash for you; It's entirely possible, nay, probable, that the US constitution isn't the best concieved declaration since "let there be light"
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Post by Sueven »

Chmee: I know you're too smart to cite the specific amendment and cite it as gospel. You know that the exact meaning of that amendment has been interpreted many times by the Supreme Court, and that the "shall make no law" portion of the amendment has obviously been overriden through legal precedent.

Now, if you want to go back and claim that these precedents are incorrect, you are free to do so. But (and I know this sounds bizarre) the constitution is not alone sound enough backing to declare campaign finance reform unconstitutional. In making this argument, you would also have to argue that making threats of violence or terrorism is perfectly legal, along with the plethora of other forms of restricted speech.

Deward: A large problem with the public image of the libertarian party, and what I believe has been alluded to here, is the fact that very many rich, white teenagers tend to identify with libertarian ideology. In discussing ideologies, high school government courses tend to say "democrats are liberal on social and economic matters, republicans are conservative on both social and economic matters, libertarians are liberal on social matters and conservative on economic matters, and populists are conservative on social matters and liberal on economic matters." I know that this is a gross oversimplification of all 4 ideologies, but it's what's often taught in schools. The libertarian alignment appeals strongly to rich white youth. It gives them the ability to support drugs and sex while giving them an excuse to ignore the poor folk.

I know that these teenagers are not indicative of your average, educated libertarian, nor do they necessarily endorse the same platform for the same reasons. But it causes a major image problem among political youth. Young people tend to associate libertarians with rich, spoiled assholes.
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Post by Chmee »

Voronwë wrote:i can't make a television commercial that says "fuck you".

is that unconstitutional?
In terms of the federal governments regulations preventing it. Yes in my opinion its also unconstitutional. For an intersting read about some of the history of that restriction and its possible implications to the internet, see http://reason.com/9810/fe.wallace.shtml .

Any member of the broadcast media should be free to make a restriction for their own business. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you have a right to force a company to help you to distribute that speech. But in the case of restricting ads before an election, we could have an organizaion that is willing to pay to get its message out, and a private company willing to take that money but the government restricting it purely because of its speech content. In particular because the content does actually contain political speech.
if you want to literally interpret the constituion in a purely reduced form, then again, this ruling has nothing to do with "speech" at all.
Scalia did a decent job in my opinion addressing the speech is not money argment in his dissent. An excerpt ...
In any economy operated on even the most rudimentary principles of division of labor, effective public communication requires the speaker to make use of the services of others. An author may write a novel, but he will seldom publish and distribute it himself. A freelance reporter may write a story, but he will rarely edit, print, and deliver it to subscribers. To a government bent on suppressing speech, this mode of organization
presents opportunities: Control any cog in the machine, and you can halt the whole apparatus. License printers, and it matters little whether authors are still free to write. Restrict the sale of books, and it matters little who prints them.
And on pooling money ...

We have said that “implicit in the right to engage in activities protected by the First Amendment” is “a corresponding right to associate with others in pursuit of a wide variety of political, social, economic, educational, religious, and cultural ends.” Roberts v. United States Jaycees, 468 U. S. 609, 622 (1984). That “right to associate . . . in pursuit” includes the right to pool financial resources. If it were otherwise, Congress would be empowered to enact legislation requiring newspapers to be sole proprietorships, banning their use of partnership or corporate form. That sort of restriction would be an obvious violation of the First Amendment, and it is incomprehensible why the conclusion should change when what is at issue is the pooling of funds for the most important (and most perennially threatened) category of speech: electoral speech. The principle that such financial association does not enjoy full First Amendment protection threatens the existence of all political parties.
Voronwë wrote: Nowhere in the first amendment does it say that you have the right to air on publically owned airwaves everything that you are otherwise free to say.

We are all free to speak all sorts of things.

Why do you say that by definition purchased time on broadcast media should be completely bereft of any stipulation on language?

Lets say that the NRA cannot buy television time at all? is that a restriction on its freedom of speech? Does the NRA as a non-individual entity have rights protected by the first amendment? or do the individual members only have those rights? that seems like hair-splitting, but it may be important.

complete unregulated speech does not exist in broadcast media - in at the very least use of profanity, display of certain types of nudity, and a few other things. I would suggest that you do not have a problem with such legislation on those even though in a purely reductionist view, it is a violation of free speech.

I cannot publish a newspaper that demonstrates bomb making techniques, methods to hack government computers, weaknesses in local police enforcement policies, etc. Is that a violation of my right to a free press? no. Now these are more severe in nature than regulations on campaign spending, but i think setting some limit (an extremely high one) on the amount of financial corruption inherent in the system is reasonable.
I am not sure you are correct in your examples here. I just checked Amazon and I can purchase a copy of "The Anarchists Cookbook" which has bomb making techniques, plus more scholarly books on explosives and how they work. There was also a host of books on computer security, and how to test your security by basically trying to hack into it (I attended a seminar earlier this year that did exactly the same thing).

The people who truly benefit from unfettered campaign spending laws are people who are financially to gain from the companies who can afford such access, as well as those whose ambitions are to impose their ethnic groups' cultural standards on the population at large. It is the persons who favor individual rights who actually benefit from the rulings in question, because they - in some small manner - do not completely marginalize the voices of individuals.
The people who truely benefit are incumbents. They already have the benefit of having been in the public eye because of holding office. Restrictions on campaign spending and electoral speech restrict the ability of challengers to get out their own messages, and also to criticize the incumbents performance.

The larger political organizations also benefit, at least in relation to smaller ones, because they can more easily absorb the cost and time of meeting the regulations.
because one cannot convey the exact message they want over broadcast media, that does not mean that they are denied freedom of speech. They are free to publish their own booklets. They are free to hold demonstrations. They are free to stand on street corners saying whatever they want. The first amendment is alive and well.
Soft money was not just used for broadcast media ads. It was used for "party building", which included things like booklets, get out the vote drives. So in the sense that people would like to help contribute to fund such activities, their freedom is lessened.
Nowhere in the constitution does it say anything about any entity have unfettered access to the public's property (broadcast 'air') to use it for whatever political aim that entity may have, and the rest be damned.

Are federal equal time laws unconstitutional to you as well? That media outlets are required to air more than one political candidates views during an election season? is that a violation of free press?
I think the equal time laws are pretty questionable as well, although probably more on fourth amendment "takings" ground.
stipulations on how broadcast media can be used do not infringe upon any individual's ability to express themselves fundamentally. It may mean that they do not have the influence they would otherwise want.
The constitution does not guarantee your speech an audience.

it simply guarantees your right to speak. This is preserved by this ruling.
No, it doesn't guarantee you an audience, as I said earlier, if a company doesn't want to sell an ad, I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with the restrictions that the government wants to make on that transaction.
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Post by Chmee »

Zaelath wrote:Any "common" person, ie the 99.9% of us that can't benefit from political graft, that doesn't support this is either completely stupid or completely fanatical in their belief that the original framers of the US constitution were some kind of gods that knew what was best for people from their time until the end of existence. Oh, except for the constitutional ammendments which they're even MORE vhement about.

Here's a news flash for you; It's entirely possible, nay, probable, that the US constitution isn't the best concieved declaration since "let there be light"
The constitution is not perfect (although I do think it is a remarkable and admirable document). It is however, the supreme law of the land.
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Sueven wrote:Chmee: I know you're too smart to cite the specific amendment and cite it as gospel. You know that the exact meaning of that amendment has been interpreted many times by the Supreme Court, and that the "shall make no law" portion of the amendment has obviously been overriden through legal precedent.
Actually, I am pretty much a free speech absolutist (or pretty darn close). The supreme court has interpreted the constitution in various cases, that doesn't mean it was right to do so. But even if I didn't hold with a "pure" meaning of the first amendment. We are talking about restricting politcal speech. Politcal discourse which is vital to the funtioning of a republic.

The answer to bad speech is not restrictions, its more speech.
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Post by Zaelath »

Chmee wrote:
Zaelath wrote:Any "common" person, ie the 99.9% of us that can't benefit from political graft, that doesn't support this is either completely stupid or completely fanatical in their belief that the original framers of the US constitution were some kind of gods that knew what was best for people from their time until the end of existence. Oh, except for the constitutional ammendments which they're even MORE vhement about.

Here's a news flash for you; It's entirely possible, nay, probable, that the US constitution isn't the best concieved declaration since "let there be light"
The constitution is not perfect (although I do think it is a remarkable and admirable document). It is however, the supreme law of the land.
Realistically it's a serving suggestion.

The constitution was written so long ago in such simplistic language that it's open to interpretation on either side of any of the major "issues" in the US at any given time. The Supreme Court is the "supreme law of the land", which is also why it's wrangled by the government in power at the time a judge dies/retires to put "their" man on the court.

Combine with it's ability to be interpreted the fact that it's also had 27 amendments tacked on shows that it is indeed a "living document" as some others have proposed. Hell your entire argument is about abrogating the first amendment not the constitution itself. Could it not be that the first amendment being all of 2 lines robs it of any explicit meaning and makes any and all arguments on it moot?

Regardless, constitutional arguments by laymen are about as logical as religious wars about who has the best invisible friend.
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Post by Zaelath »

Chmee wrote:
Sueven wrote:Chmee: I know you're too smart to cite the specific amendment and cite it as gospel. You know that the exact meaning of that amendment has been interpreted many times by the Supreme Court, and that the "shall make no law" portion of the amendment has obviously been overriden through legal precedent.
Actually, I am pretty much a free speech absolutist (or pretty darn close). The supreme court has interpreted the constitution in various cases, that doesn't mean it was right to do so. But even if I didn't hold with a "pure" meaning of the first amendment. We are talking about restricting politcal speech. Politcal discourse which is vital to the funtioning of a republic.

The answer to bad speech is not restrictions, its more speech.
If the US had greater than a 50% voter turnout, and if most of those voters weren't massively swayed by smear advertising from "special interest groups" (big money) who are the only ones with the capacity to bend the political processs to their will under the current system, then you might have a point.

This is not "Political discourse which is vital to the functioning of a republic", this is Federally sanctioned brainwashing of the populace by the rich.

And frankly, if you think there can be any "more speech" absorbed by the population, then you over estimate their attention span. Besides, who is going to fund this speech?
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Post by Sueven »

Do you oppose our laws that ban making terroristic threats?
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Post by Voronwë »

the fact is there are laws that regulate how media can be used. Tobacco and liquor companies cannot purchase advertisements as well in many media outlets.

the constitution is part of the law. I'm not a legal scholar nor do i pretend to be, but the history of rulings on a subject is also part of the law ("Precident"). And there is a great deal of precident for regulating various aspects of how broadcast media can be used.

I dont think the tobacco and alchohol industries would win on constitutional grounds if they were to sue the federal government, though it may be moot since they agreed voluntarily to the stipulations(?).
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