Snipa Down

Mort · Post by **Mort** » November 24, 2003, 1:09 pm

Just heard on CNN radio, DEATH sentence is in....

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/11/24/sprj. ... index.html

kthxdie

Post by **Sylvus** » November 24, 2003, 2:05 pm

Good! How do the anti-death penalty people feel about this? My prediction is that you'll be against it. =P But seriously, are you?

I don't necessarily always support the death penalty, but in this case I think it's perfectly reasonable. Anyone that goes on a "killing spree" is undeserving of any sort of mercy, in my opinion.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » November 24, 2003, 2:46 pm

I've always held that reasonable restraint should be exercised in DP cases. Usually, I reserve my own judgement for people who commit mass murders, extreme violence crimes and/or show little remorse for their actions.

In this case, I'm glad to see the punishment befitting the crime. I would play devil's advocate in light of Sylvus' comment and ask to those who are pro-DP: Would you be willing to be the one to throw the switch or push the plunger in a case like this? It's easy to get a hooded executioner to do it, but when it comes down to it, would anyone here be willing to stand behind their beliefs and do the deed themselves?

Post by **Xouqoa** » November 24, 2003, 3:00 pm

Gladly, in this case.

He's lucky the shooting spree wasn't in Florida and he didn't do this 4 years ago when they still used the electric chair here. (Fondly referred to as Old Sparky by the locals.)

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » November 24, 2003, 3:02 pm

The trouble with the death penalty is whether or not our system works well enough to ensure that the guilty are indeed guilty. The answer is no. No system is, nor will one ever be. Therefore, I don't believe in the death penalty.

Post by **Xouqoa** » November 24, 2003, 3:05 pm

Skogen wrote:The trouble with the death penalty is whether or not our system works well enough to ensure that the guilty are indeed guilty. The answer is no. No system is, nor will one ever be. Therefore, I don't believe in the death penalty.

Pre-crime works! err...

Mukyluk · Post by **Mukyluk** » November 24, 2003, 3:09 pm

actually when they adminster the DP there are 2 stwiches. that way both people involved with actually "doing the deed" have no idea wich one actaully put the person down..
but personally i would show little remorse for actually "doign the deed" as long as i was shure enough in my mind that the accuses was in fact guilty.

Mort · Post by **Mort** » November 24, 2003, 3:29 pm

And in this case, I think we can all rest assured.... these fucks are 100% guilty. I would gladly press both buttons myself. And then wait in line for John Lee Malvo's turn.

Morgrym · Post by **Morgrym** » November 24, 2003, 3:34 pm

An Eye For An Eye Will Justify Murder By The State...

As goes a line from an old Corrosion of Conformity song

I say fry the fucker, turn him over and do it again just to make sure he is done.

I was living in the area at the time..it sucks being fucking scared to get out of your car near a Renys.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » November 24, 2003, 3:48 pm

Sylvus wrote:Good! How do the anti-death penalty people feel about this? My prediction is that you'll be against it. =P But seriously, are you?

I don't necessarily always support the death penalty, but in this case I think it's perfectly reasonable. Anyone that goes on a "killing spree" is undeserving of any sort of mercy, in my opinion.

I am anti-death penalty only because of the sheer amount of people who are executed for crimes they are innocent of. In cases like Malvo, who really cares. Although there are worse punishments than putting him out of his misery. I would rather be executed than spend the rest of my life rotting in some shitty prison.

It's cheaper to incarcerate him anyway. Unless he admits his guilt he will sit on death row for the next 20 years costing the state 10s of millions of dollars in appeals and court time.

Burke · Post by **Burke** » November 24, 2003, 4:24 pm

One can only hope fellow inmates take care of em like Dahmer got taken care of. Gratis, of course.

Kluden · Post by **Kluden** » November 24, 2003, 4:32 pm

Condemned prisoners in Virginia have the choice of dying by lethal injection or in the electric chair.

I choose...I choose...oh shit, just give me the lethal injection.

What condemned shiteater would ever pick the electric chair? Why leave the choice to them, make the jury decide that, and live with that decision too!

I'm usually not for the death penalty. There is no doubt in my mind that life in prison is worse than being killed. Prison sucks for a reason, and sending someone there forever, where guards and other prisoners will beat the shit out of you for the rest of your life...yeah...I would rather see him and his son spending the rest of their days in regret.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » November 24, 2003, 5:07 pm

if he goes to prison for the rest of his life he deserves 0 recreation. a fucking floor with a bucket to poop and piss in. that's it.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » November 24, 2003, 5:12 pm

I am against the death penalty for several reasons. Please notice that I am not talking about this case particularly:

1. Too many innocent people have been sentenced to death. ONE innocent person executed is one too many.

2. It is more expensive than life in jail.

3. Imo, life in jail is a hell of a lot worse than the death sentence.

4. Death penalty ignores one important part of law: Rehabilitation.

5. In some cases it is not fair to hold the person fully accountable for his/her actions. Seriously psychical injuries from childhood etc can make a person do horrible things if he/she doesn't get help.

6. Capital punishment is not about justice, but about revenge. Vengeance should have no room in the courtroom since it has nothing to do with justice.

7. I wouldn't be able to pull the switch, so it is not fair for me to ask someone else to do it for me.

In this particular case I have no doubt he is guilty (I am a bit less sure how to handle the young kid depending on how much his mind has been messed with). However, I still believe a life sentence is way more punishing for the individual. In fact, I'd gladly argue that giving him the death penalty is showing him mercy.

Akanae · Post by **Akanae** » November 24, 2003, 5:31 pm

He's lucky the shooting spree wasn't in Florida and he didn't do this 4 years ago when they still used the electric chair here. (Fondly referred to as Old Sparky by the locals.)

They still use the firing squad here in Utah

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » November 24, 2003, 5:39 pm

I personally feel he should be taken like his victims were, they tell him he got off on a technicality and he is free, then let me pop the happy son of a bitch as he walks through the parking lot.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » November 24, 2003, 5:43 pm

Kylere wrote:I personally feel he should be taken like his victims were, they tell him he got off on a technicality and he is free, then let me pop the happy son of a bitch as he walks through the parking lot.

Hell Let him loose in Flint that way we get 2 birds with one stone. Living in Flint is far worse then the death penlty and we might get lucky and he will pop your ass.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » November 24, 2003, 5:52 pm

Cartalas wrote:
Kylere wrote:I personally feel he should be taken like his victims were, they tell him he got off on a technicality and he is free, then let me pop the happy son of a bitch as he walks through the parking lot.

Hell Let him loose in Flint that way we get 2 birds with one stone. Living in Flint is far worse then the death penlty and we might get lucky and he will pop your ass.

Having you dislike me is the best news of my day, and BTW in Flint he would probably become a cop, Flint Police are averaging 1 felony commited a week.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » November 24, 2003, 6:02 pm

Skogen wrote:The trouble with the death penalty is whether or not our system works well enough to ensure that the guilty are indeed guilty. The answer is no. No system is, nor will one ever be. Therefore, I don't believe in the death penalty.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » November 24, 2003, 6:15 pm

Kylere wrote:I personally feel he should be taken like his victims were, they tell him he got off on a technicality and he is free, then let me pop the happy son of a bitch as he walks through the parking lot.

Or we could use Stalin's method. Pick him up in the middle of the night, drag him to a field in the country. Make him dig a hole and pour limestone granules into it. Execute him over the hold, bury his body. Send his family a bill for the cost of the bullet.

/sarcasm off

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » November 24, 2003, 6:55 pm

Pahreyia wrote:
Kylere wrote:I personally feel he should be taken like his victims were, they tell him he got off on a technicality and he is free, then let me pop the happy son of a bitch as he walks through the parking lot.
Or we could use Stalin's method. Pick him up in the middle of the night, drag him to a field in the country. Make him dig a hole and pour limestone granules into it. Execute him over the hold, bury his body. Send his family a bill for the cost of the bullet.

/sarcasm off

Or the put them him a box car, send him to the middle of Siberia, then let them him in the dead of cold to walk the remaining 500 miles of the voyage to the artic circle to work in a lead mine until he dies of lead posioning.

Vaemas · Post by **Vaemas** » November 24, 2003, 7:12 pm

Kluden wrote:I choose...I choose...oh shit, just give me the lethal injection.

I wrote a paper on the death penalty recently for a class. Wierdest thing...think it was back in 2000, some idiot actually chose the electric chair over lethal injection. Go figure.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » November 24, 2003, 7:15 pm

Skogen wrote:
Pahreyia wrote:
Kylere wrote:I personally feel he should be taken like his victims were, they tell him he got off on a technicality and he is free, then let me pop the happy son of a bitch as he walks through the parking lot.
Or we could use Stalin's method. Pick him up in the middle of the night, drag him to a field in the country. Make him dig a hole and pour limestone granules into it. Execute him over the hold, bury his body. Send his family a bill for the cost of the bullet.

/sarcasm off
Or the put them him a box car, send him to the middle of Siberia, then let them him in the dead of cold to walk the remaining 500 miles of the voyage to the artic circle to work in a lead mine until he dies of lead posioning.

...and then charge the family for the train ticket.

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » November 24, 2003, 7:20 pm

Kelshara wrote:I am against the death penalty for several reasons. Please notice that I am not talking about this case particularly:

1. Too many innocent people have been sentenced to death. ONE innocent person executed is one too many.

2. It is more expensive than life in jail.

3. Imo, life in jail is a hell of a lot worse than the death sentence.

4. Death penalty ignores one important part of law: Rehabilitation.

5. In some cases it is not fair to hold the person fully accountable for his/her actions. Seriously psychical injuries from childhood etc can make a person do horrible things if he/she doesn't get help.

6. Capital punishment is not about justice, but about revenge. Vengeance should have no room in the courtroom since it has nothing to do with justice.

7. I wouldn't be able to pull the switch, so it is not fair for me to ask someone else to do it for me.

In this particular case I have no doubt he is guilty (I am a bit less sure how to handle the young kid depending on how much his mind has been messed with). However, I still believe a life sentence is way more punishing for the individual. In fact, I'd gladly argue that giving him the death penalty is showing him mercy.

I agree with all of this.

God help me, I do not believe my conviction is strong enough to sustain person loss. If I were to lose someone to a "Malvo-like" killing spree, I would want vengence rather than justice. I will just hope that such a day never comes. I will hope for my (future) childrens' sake that the world is a safer place by the time they are brought into this world. In absense of that comfort, I will continue to amass more affluence that will keep them in the 'nicer' places in the world away from the majority of the violence.

For better or worse, I will continue to believe in civilization and its ultimate utopia of enlightened citizens.

IeailandDokktur · Post by **IeailandDokktur** » November 24, 2003, 7:32 pm

They should let the victims fam STONE HIM TO DEATH !

Spankes · Post by **Spankes** » November 24, 2003, 7:57 pm

The death penalty is more expensive than life in prison because of the appeal process. The problem is not with the penalty, but with the system implementing it. And, while I know it goes against everything that the US justice system stands for, I wish there were very few if any appeals for the most heinous of crimes including, but not limited to, rape/murder, mass murders, assorted killing sprees and molestations of children.

If I had my way people convicted of these crimes would be taken out back and shot on the spot....no appeals, no mercy. Yes, innocent people would die. Yes, I would be willing to be one of those innocent people if that is what happened. In the end, people would simply stop committing these crimes.

The death penalty does not work and does not deter because, in reality, there is very little real threat of actually being killed. Put a real punishment in place and I guarantee that crimes like this will come to a virtual halt.

But, that is just my extremist point of view

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » November 24, 2003, 8:05 pm

Spankes wrote:The death penalty is more expensive than life in prison because of the appeal process. The problem is not with the penalty, but with the system implementing it. And, while I know it goes against everything that the US justice system stands for, I wish there were very few if any appeals for the most heinous of crimes including, but not limited to, rape/murder, mass murders, assorted killing sprees and molestations of children.

If I had my way people convicted of these crimes would be taken out back and shot on the spot....no appeals, no mercy. Yes, innocent people would die. Yes, I would be willing to be one of those innocent people if that is what happened. In the end, people would simply stop committing these crimes.

The death penalty does not work and does not deter because, in reality, there is very little real threat of actually being killed. Put a real punishment in place and I guarantee that crimes like this will come to a virtual halt.

But, that is just my extremist point of view

Nah... it doesn't work because people don't believe they'll be caught or don't care it they are. Penalties are never a reason not to kill someone, doesn't even enter your mind..

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » November 24, 2003, 8:42 pm

Zaelath wrote:Nah... it doesn't work because people don't believe they'll be caught or don't care it they are. Penalties are never a reason not to kill someone, doesn't even enter your mind..

Zaelath speaks from experience.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » November 24, 2003, 8:51 pm

Spankes wrote:In the end, people would simply stop committing these crimes.

Do you really think that? Despite thousands of years of historical precedence, you think that the death penalty is a good deterrant?

Spankes · Post by **Spankes** » November 24, 2003, 8:55 pm

In its current state? No. But I think swift justice would be. But, we will never know, since my crazy from of justice will never happen. I just grow tired of the rapes, murders, and molestations and I think the world is a better place without these shitbags....deterrent or not.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » November 24, 2003, 9:02 pm

What are you talking about? The current legal system is less than a hundred years old. Before that, town judges could authorize executions on the spot for crimes as petty as cattle rustling. The death penalty didn't even deter many people from stealing fucking cows.

Russia and China still have capital punishment policies that border on human rights violations and crime is fairly rampant in both countries. Most of Africa doesn't even wait for a trial before executions are carried out and people there could not be any more dismissive of laws.

Nobody ever thinks they are going to get caught when they perform a crime. _Ever_

Phugg_Innay · Post by **Phugg_Innay** » November 24, 2003, 11:43 pm

I Miss Sparty

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » November 25, 2003, 12:30 am

Spankes wrote:The death penalty is more expensive than life in prison because of the appeal process. The problem is not with the penalty, but with the system implementing it. And, while I know it goes against everything that the US justice system stands for, I wish there were very few if any appeals for the most heinous of crimes including, but not limited to, rape/murder, mass murders, assorted killing sprees and molestations of children.

If I had my way people convicted of these crimes would be taken out back and shot on the spot....no appeals, no mercy. Yes, innocent people would die. Yes, I would be willing to be one of those innocent people if that is what happened. In the end, people would simply stop committing these crimes.

The death penalty does not work and does not deter because, in reality, there is very little real threat of actually being killed. Put a real punishment in place and I guarantee that crimes like this will come to a virtual halt.

But, that is just my extremist point of view

holy shit, someones bigger fucking moron then i am

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » November 25, 2003, 10:25 am

Spankes is correct about the costs, however I bet he would change his mind if his children or parents were executed while innocent.

Mukyluk · Post by **Mukyluk** » November 25, 2003, 10:34 am

fuck human rights... did the murders and other criminals think of there victems human rights before the put an axe in someones face of shot them at long range with a rifle like in this case? i doubt it... look as singapore some kid from the states had a little fun and used washable spray paint on a car.. boo frickidy hoo... he got his ass beat with a cane.....i say years of intense beating / tortureing will convince people to not commit crimes...minus bubba trying to take advantage of u in the showers prisons arent as bad as they SHOULD be.. ffs they have cable tv and nice workout equip..granted they only get to watch tv or workout for a few hours a day but shit i dont even have cable atm.... and yes this is how i actually feel. flame me at will, but it works. just look at places like say singapore again.. you drop your wallet on the street with couple hundred $$ in it and you will see it maild to you with the money still in the wallet. people are afraid of commiting crimes there..the fear has been instilled in them and its fucking working too.
/rant off

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » November 25, 2003, 11:10 am

Singapore is interesting and hardly crime free btw. In fact, it is a hotbed for cyber crime. Way back in the day I used to run a few IRC servers on a net with a lot of people from Singapore, and it was interesting to talk to people from there due to how different the country is. That said, most of them did not like how strict the laws were...

Mukyluk · Post by **Mukyluk** » November 25, 2003, 11:14 am

didnt say it was crime free. but its better then the us....strict or not....
when you were growing up before you did something wrong did you fear the spoon?

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » November 25, 2003, 11:28 am

fuck human rights... did the murders and other criminals think of there victems human rights before the put an axe in someones face of shot them at long range with a rifle like in this case? i doubt it

And what the fuck does that have to do with anything? Executing them doesnt bring the victims back.
The stuff here I agree with: cost, deterrence, innocence, all of it. And I'll add to that that death penalties are simply revenge and have fuck all to do with justice. As evidenced by the bullshit above. Lock them up and throw away the key; the public is just as protected from their actions as if they're dead.

Mukyluk · Post by **Mukyluk** » November 25, 2003, 11:41 am

they swab the arm of someone about to die to lethal injection because it violates there human right against cruel and unusal punishment... thats what the fuck it has to do with it all. do you honestly belive that a murder considers a perosons human rights before they kill them.. heeh i doubt it..

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » November 25, 2003, 12:03 pm

Actually the argument is that the entire capital punishment system is cruel and unusual punishment...

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » November 25, 2003, 12:52 pm

A person who can go on a spree like this has no place in civilized society...

Leaving you with two choices ( I am unwilling to foot the bill for incarcerating such folks, sorry):

1. Exile - to where?

2. Death

You wat to set up an island somewhere to exile such people to, that's fine with me. Until then, the death penatly is what we got.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » November 25, 2003, 1:06 pm

Leaving you with two choices ( I am unwilling to foot the bill for incarcerating such folks, sorry):

But you are willing to pay more to kill them?

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » November 25, 2003, 1:16 pm

Killing them doesn't cost more, allowing 20 years of appeals is what drives the cost of the death penalty through the roof.

If you are philisophically opposed, that's fine. Using the cost of the death pnealty as an argument is no more valid than protesting the cost of the judicial system in general.

Deward · Post by **Deward** » November 25, 2003, 1:21 pm

I've said it before and I will say it again. The death penalty is not a deterrent. It is a way to remove scum from our society for actions that prove they don't want to be a part of it.

People who get the death penalty do get a lot of appeals but so does everyone else. I don't think the price differential is really that great and I think it is worth the cost to keep them from re-joining society. If they get life in prison then they have a possibility at parole in 20-30 years. Would you want the sniper to possibly be free in 20 years? I sure wouldn't. Saying life without posibility of parole is bullshit. I knew a guy that got a 7 year sentence for child molestation without chance of parole and he still got parole after serving 2.5 years.

Having said that I do believe that the death penalty should only be used in crimes that can be proven beyond any shadow of a doubt. I think there needs to be hard evidence as in witnesses or blood samples found on the murderer that prove that he is guilty. I also think they need to give the death penalty to serious child molesters and serial rapists as well.

Post by **Sylvus** » November 25, 2003, 1:24 pm

But you are willing to pay more to kill them?

But it wouldn't be more expensive if he weren't allowed to have protracted appeals processes. Again, I'd like to re-iterate that I'm not pro- or anti-death penalty, there are situations when I agree with it and situations when I don't.

I think that in this particular case, this guy is without a doubt, 100% guilty. Ten people have died (maybe more? I don't remember the exact number) at his hands. Sticking a needle in his arm tonight would save a ton of money compared to feeding, housing, and guarding him for the next 40+ years.

That line is certainly blurred when there is some question as to someone's innocence, and I certainly wouldn't want to put an innocent man to death. I just think there should be an express lane to the injection or the chair for those people who do truly heinous things. Like Dahmer or someone who basically hunts a bunch of random people over the course of several weeks.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » November 25, 2003, 1:25 pm

The higher cost of capital punishment comes down to 4 constitutional safeguards:

• An extensive jury selection where the jury is given specific instructions on sentencing in capital punishment cases.

• A long, dual trial processes where the defendant first must be found guilty and then a second trial to decide if the death penalty should be used.

• A quadrupled number of motions filed and a larger number of expert witnesses also prolong the trial case.

• Automatic appeals grant the defendants protection from oversights or poor defense from their lawyers, which are often overworked public defendants.

It's not purely frivilous appeals that drive up the costs like some people claim. And imho, if you are going to kill somebody you need to make god damn sure he is guilty.

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » November 25, 2003, 1:28 pm

Fallanthas wrote:A person who can go on a spree like this has no place in civilized society...

Leaving you with two choices ( I am unwilling to foot the bill for incarcerating such folks, sorry):

1. Exile - to where?

2. Death

You wat to set up an island somewhere to exile such people to, that's fine with me. Until then, the death penatly is what we got.

Your logic is as follows:

Precondition:
(1) Person XXX commits multiple heinous crimes.

Assumption:
(A) Person XXX who has commited said crimes should not be free to roam the civilized world.
(B) A suitable spanning set of options that fulfill assumption (A) are exile and death.
(C) A suitable 'island' (isolated remote locale) for exile is unavailable.

Conclusion:
Person XXX should be put to death to satisfy assumption (A)

Your conclusion is sound based upon your assumptions. Unfortunately, your assumptions are overly simplistic and fundamentally flawed.

First, I will contend that Maximum Security Prisons are a suitable isolated remote locale that satisfy the requirements for exile.

Second, I will content that your assumption (B) ignores any possibility for reprogramming (from simple modern practices to anything as far fetched as that found in Demolition Man). This oversight should be considered (and possibly discarded as inpracticall or cost prohibitive) in some way.

Third, carefull consideration should be made for any 'cost prohibitive' arguments because you are asking society to put a value on a human life (regardless of how 'useless' YOU feel that life is). If you argument is practicality-centric, you do need to be aware of the current costs of sentencing a man to death and how that compares to the cost for life imprisonment. You, also, need to consider that a 'morale' society is not logically sound if it both condemns and allows murder in any form. The price you pay for your freedom and morality is that you may need to pay an economic cost to keep the criminal elements out of your neighborhood and safely imprisoned elsewhere.

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » November 25, 2003, 1:35 pm

Kelshara wrote:1. Too many innocent people have been sentenced to death. ONE innocent person executed is one too many.

3. Imo, life in jail is a hell of a lot worse than the death sentence.

Therefore having an innocent person spend thier life in jail is what?

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » November 25, 2003, 1:44 pm

Arch,

To ask a society to pay for and support an individual who has forfeited their right to live within that society is stupid.

Maximum security prisons? See above.

Reprogramming? Considering close to 70% of those released from prison go on to commit another crime, reprogramming flat does not work.

My argument has nothing to do with the value of a human life, which I put very high indeed. What I am arguing is that there has to be a way to 'dispose' of those who prove beyond a doubt by their own actions that they will not conform to even a very basic level of the requirements for living within a civilized society.

Yes, it's simple in theory. No, it's not simple in practice. That doesn't invalidate the position.

There is no 'right' to live within a society.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » November 25, 2003, 2:08 pm

Therefore having an innocent person spend thier life in jail is what?

It's a chance of figuring out they are innocent so they can at least get some part of their life back. Hard to do if you kill them.

Not too long ago one of Norway's worse murder cases (guy with axe in a hotel.. extremely rare something like that happens back home) got released after 15 years I think it was in jail because new technology discovered he was innocent. Now he wont get those 15 years back, but at least he is alive.