Warriors Pissed

Morgrym · Post by **Morgrym** » November 10, 2003, 1:23 pm

Looks like Warriors are deciding to take action of some sort..more info found here:

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/sh ... eadid=4109

Good luck I guess

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » November 10, 2003, 2:07 pm

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » November 10, 2003, 2:53 pm

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » November 10, 2003, 2:53 pm

Well I agree that in general melee balancing should be looked at. SOE announced long ago that melee balancing was up next to be looked at. That had to be at least a year ago. And we've seen what? Not a damn thing near as I can tell.

As far as warrior-specific issues, though.. I care just about as much as warriors cared about Monks when we got nerfed.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » November 10, 2003, 3:01 pm

Excellent.

Means I should be able to get a group right quick on Tuesday then

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » November 10, 2003, 4:14 pm

1. i'm not reading the link

2. i can tell you what it is about anyways. waa waa SKs and paladins tank better in LDoN than i do.

who cares, clerics can fucking tank LDoN.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » November 10, 2003, 4:31 pm

Voronwë wrote:1. i'm not reading the link

2. i can tell you what it is about anyways. waa waa SKs and paladins tank better in LDoN than i do.

who cares, clerics can fucking tank LDoN.

Read the link... and this link http://www.archoverseers.org/
It's not LDoN, it's time raids

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » November 10, 2003, 4:34 pm

AO recently used their Pally and SK squads to clear out PoTime. Warriors are on their usual rant fest.

EDIT: Oh, and they didn't have to change their heal timing to do it.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » November 10, 2003, 5:20 pm

This might help get BOV looked at, but they arnt going to bother with melee balance

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » November 10, 2003, 6:50 pm

sure once you get a guy totally twinked out w/ a few Quarm loots a pal/SK can tank almost like a warrior. same as **EVERY OTHER EXPANSION**

just like people could tank shit in Ssra w/ SKs once they had some VT loot on them.

if you get enough loot on characters, they can own content. Rangers tanked all of ToV except Vyemm i think pre-Luclin even.

but considering the author of the bitch-du-jour is only lvl 63, he/she probably didnt know the shit i posted above.

i dont know shit about how heals are timed for Time mobs and frankly i'm talking out of my ass here...but wtf.... but lets say you are healing at 1s intervals anyways, most of the time it isnt the constant DPS you are worried about smoking your warrior, it is the burst DPS. and the rotation is timed to compensate for bursts.

So a Pal/SK may be more vulnerable to DPS bursts, but if the heal timing is already 'tuned' to protect that to some degree, a hybrid with enough AC and hps will be able to live through it too. and also lets not forget your clerics are pretty twinked out by now too, and can run a tighteer rotation than they could before the TimeFarm opened.

quoting the thread:

As for other classes tanking mobbs /shrug they have over 10k and 2k ac also. I mean put a 9khp cleric in there with a 1 sec heal rot and a few DI saves you would prolly win... Point is if you have a fast nuff heal Rot anyone can tank pretty much!!

and yeah maybe Bulwark of Vie needs to have Rune agro attached to it.

pretty sure we'll be sticking with our numero uno tank for many more months.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » November 10, 2003, 7:32 pm

BOV needs to be taken out of the damn game and it never should have existed in the first place, unless it was warrior only for valid targets.

That aside, those people are idiots. Bards are way more overpowered than any knight could DREAM of being, even able to tank just as well with the same gear drops and they had the audacity to call for monk nerfs to divert attention off of themselves rescently. No one is going to use a damn knight to tank anything from elementals onward unless they have been farming that particular mob for a while, anyhow. Its been this way every expansion, but warriors have fragile egos and are specialists. Specialists are always the leaders in the raid content, and generalists are always superior in the XP environment. Unless you are bard, in which case you are king of both.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » November 10, 2003, 7:46 pm

Raid pullers don't wipe raids. Non-Bard raid pullers do.

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » November 11, 2003, 2:30 am

Raid pullers don't wipe raids. Non-Bard raid pullers do.

Wow...that's not true at all. Unless you have good Bards and shitty Monks..../shrug

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » November 11, 2003, 3:43 am

Nah, just being antagonistically facetious. With the way that Fading Memories works now, most all other pulling classes are at a distinct disadvantage as raid pullers/kiters. FM works pretty much exactly like rogue Escape, and that's a 72 minute raw reuse timer, but they get it for a good chunk of mana. Makes them obscenely overpowered with enough FT to regen the mana every few minutes.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » November 11, 2003, 9:48 am

Pahreyia wrote:...obscenely overpowered with enough FT to regen the mana every few minutes.

Good bards are fairly hard to come by, there's lots of mediocre to shitty ones around. Those with enough FT to make semi constant use of FM are even harder to find. I made my bard 3(?) years ago after watching a buddy AE bugs in WK

Who's on the list of overpowered classes now? Bards, beastlords, mages, SKs, rangers and Pallys all seem to pop up depending on what class board you look at.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » November 11, 2003, 1:27 pm

I wouldn't necessarily say that all of those classes are overpowered, it's that the strength of those classes has been bolstered lately to far exceed the empowerment of the other classes in comparison. I'm not quite saying that a nerf is necessary in all cases. Probably in the case of bards only, but overall class balancing needs to be looked at. Melee probably need a good boost (warriors: taunt/ac, monks: dps more in line with rogues, rogues: probably ok at this point). Hybrids will always be situationaly more powerful than pure casters/melee. I'd like to see rangers get a little more taunt power, thus making them viable tank choices in LDoN. BSTs probably need to have their warders nerfed slightly, just to bring them in line with monk DPS at the higher levels. There's no reason they should be parsing 20-40 dps higher than monks with equivalant AA. Casting burst damage aside, the warder shouldn't have fully 2/3 of a monk's dps. As for casters, BoV needs to die. Most everything else is ok in my opinion.

IeailandDokktur · Post by **IeailandDokktur** » November 11, 2003, 1:32 pm

SK > Warrior !

Ranger > Warrior

So True

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » November 11, 2003, 1:39 pm

Pahreyia wrote: I'd like to see rangers get a little more taunt power, thus making them viable tank choices in LDoN.

LOL rangers arent viable tanks in LDoN, because of taunt? do the rangers you group with not know how to use their spells? rangers like all melee can tank in LDoN. hell what class cant tank in LDoN? seriously?

rangers don't need taunt at all to get agro, but we have it and it certainly doesnt need to be upped. they dont need any tweaking at all.

the only issue that may or may not be relevant is one that broadly effects melee, and that is 2h damage is a bit out of balance with duel wield in my opinion, so duel wield should be upped just a touch. 2h should still be a viable and powerful option.

you missed the class that can sustain 440+ DPS over the entirety of a boss mob fight.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » November 11, 2003, 1:47 pm

Voronwë wrote:
Pahreyia wrote: I'd like to see rangers get a little more taunt power, thus making them viable tank choices in LDoN.

LOL rangers arent viable tanks in LDoN, because of taunt? do the rangers you group with not know how to use their spells? rangers like all melee can tank in LDoN. hell what class cant tank in LDoN? seriously?

rangers don't need taunt at all to get agro, but we have it and it certainly doesnt need to be upped. they dont need any tweaking at all.

You know as well as I that in a high DPS group rangers have a tough time holding aggro. I'm not saying up the skill to 250. 200, maybe 210 seems fair enough to me. Just so that, as a rogue, I'm not having to turn off autoattack 2 seconds before I have to evade so I don't steal aggro.

the only issue that may or may not be relevant is one that broadly effects melee, and that is 2h damage is a bit out of balance with duel wield in my opinion, so duel wield should be upped just a touch. 2h should still be a viable and powerful option.

You're quite right. I totally forgot about 2hs/dw issues.

you missed the class that can sustain 440+ DPS over the entirety of a boss mob fight.

Let's call it an early morning and no coffee for my morning I.V.

Wizards?

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » November 11, 2003, 2:02 pm

Warriors weren't this gay and whiney back when I played one (cept Zotha

). What is the world coming to?

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » November 11, 2003, 3:03 pm

Pahreyia wrote:There's no reason they (bsts) should be parsing 20-40 dps higher than monks with equivalant AA.

I've seen 20 or people make this same statement, I've yet to see a valid comparison between a monk\bst with equivilant gear\AAs and against the same mob(s). With resistant mobs you knock off a third of a bsts DPS as well.

Rangers are agro kings on LDoN

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » November 11, 2003, 3:27 pm

You know as well as I that in a high DPS group rangers have a tough time holding aggro.

i dont, and none of the rangers in my guild do that i've seen in that position. beyond that, i guess i can't speak to it, as i haven't grouped with any for LDoN outside of guild.

i dont know if we are talking about the same level/equipment types of toons, which maybe would explain the differences that you are seeing verses what i am seeing.

that being said, no class should be tuned based on the nonsense that is LDoN.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » November 11, 2003, 4:03 pm

Voronwë wrote:
You know as well as I that in a high DPS group rangers have a tough time holding aggro.
i dont, and none of the rangers in my guild do that i've seen in that position. beyond that, i guess i can't speak to it, as i haven't grouped with any for LDoN outside of guild.

i dont know if we are talking about the same level/equipment types of toons, which maybe would explain the differences that you are seeing verses what i am seeing.

Nearly elemental flagged ranger. 4300 unbuffed hp, ~1240ac, ~1350 unbuffed atk. Original player, not ebayed. I was stealing aggro like it was nobody's business. Granted, I have neglected to purchase the hastened evade AAs, which would have cut a pretty significant amount of time off of my use of evade, but even without that, and successful evade rolls, I was taking aggro within a couple of rounds (by round, I count the refresh timer on Hide/Evade, so roughly 8 seconds.)

Not an elemental ranger, but not a half bad one either.

that being said, no class should be tuned based on the nonsense that is LDoN.[/quote]

I would agree, except it's beginning to look more and more like LDoN is the model for future expansions.

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » November 11, 2003, 4:44 pm

Dont even try and point fingers to wizards!

Drolgin Steingrinder · November 11, 2003, 4:55 pm

/point

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » November 11, 2003, 4:57 pm

Raistin wrote:Dont even try and point fingers to wizards!

I'm still waiting for confirmation that that's what he was talking about. If so, I'm eagerly constructing my Burst DPS/time = squish! and 3 second parses don't make for documentable proof of that level of DPS.

Until then, I've still not had my coffee injection today, so I'm running on 1 cylinder still.

Gamei · Post by **Gamei** » November 11, 2003, 6:01 pm

I'm a very far from elemental flagged ranger with 3500 unbuffed hps and 1150 or so unbuffed ac, and I can tank and hold agro just fine in LDoN.

If your ranger can't hold agro then he needs to learn to use his fucking spells or play a warrior. I, as a ranger, have never relied solely on melee/taunt skill to hold agro for me, and I never will.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » November 11, 2003, 6:23 pm

Gamei wrote:I'm a very far from elemental flagged ranger with 3500 unbuffed hps and 1150 or so unbuffed ac, and I can tank and hold agro just fine in LDoN.

If your ranger can't hold agro then he needs to learn to use his fucking spells or play a warrior. I, as a ranger, have never relied solely on melee/taunt skill to hold agro for me, and I never will.

I said in a high DPS group.

I'll clarify:

65 BST - REBB - 4khp unbuffed - 170AA - ~1300 unbuffed atk
65 ROG - GT/RB - 4.2khp unbuffed - 110AA - 1320 unbuffed atk
65 ENCH - FT15 - 5.4k mana - 165AA - SCS3 and full nuke crit AAs
65 ROG - Ifir/LSotSC - 5khp unbuffed - 240AA - 1400 unbuffed atk
65 WIZ - FT11 - 5k mana - 135AA - full nuke AAs

4300hp/1350atk/1240ac/ ~100AA(guess) ranger didn't hold aggro worth a damn in this group. Granted, we were all pushing for DPS, but it didn't make it any easier that he didn't have insta-aggro spells/abilities. Snare only gets you so far when you pull with it.

EDIT: While adding some taunt skill to rangers may not help in the specific situation I describe above, as high DPS groups are inherently high aggro groups no matter what you do, it would help, and it would provide less than well equipped rangers an oppertunity to serve in a tank role.

seiffil · Post by **seiffil** » November 11, 2003, 8:03 pm

In your group it was the case that either you, the other rogue, or the wizard had no concept of aggro control at all, or your ranger just sucked, there's absolutely no reason your ranger should have lost aggro.

The fact you turned off attack makes me think you just aren't willing to take hits. Attack off = less dps then hitting mob while it is facing you.

Letania · Post by **Letania** » November 11, 2003, 9:08 pm

Dude I don't care who is in the group, if it's a ranger with 65 next to their name THEY HAVE AGGRO if they want it.

I've boxed rangers and challenged wizards to pull the mob off me, they can't do it with chain stun (4 stuns, with damage attached), albeit the mob did get a bit jumpy if I was interrupted. This was using 1st castle mobs. I play a wizard myself.

ANY hybrid sans bard can glue a mob to them like no one's business and that is the problem.

you missed the class that can sustain 440+ DPS over the entirety of a boss mob fight.

shh vor, I don't do that much, I was just making sure people wanted to give silk legs to wiz =p

Breagen · Post by **Breagen** » November 11, 2003, 11:03 pm

Whatever ranger you were grouping with didn't know how to play their class in a tanking role very well if they:

A: Tried to get and keep aggro just from melee + hitting taunt or;

B: Snared a mob on inc and expected to hold aggro.

If a ranger wants to get and keep aggro they have no problem doing so with the various snares/DoTs/quck nuke spells available. Plus if they have good weapons their melee is realativly good aggro in addtion but probably not enough by itself.

As to what classes are overpowered, I think its less with who is overpowered and which classes just have not recieved the same improvements as others. Bards have always been a very powerful class with a good player, while a bad player generally can't do much of anything with a bard. On and with the increased aggro of chants that was put in a while back a bard can actually hold aggro fairly well if they twist 4 + slow on a mob, although that negates the ability to sing group benifical songs so its kind of a moot point.

The problem with Pal/Sk vs warrior is that warriors have really gained nothing in terms of aggro ability over the last couple expansions apart from AE taunt which is a once every ~15mins depending on AA's skill. Otherwise they are still using weapons with EB or Anger that doesn't add much more aggro than a BoC from Velious. Pal/SK on the other hand have gained a lot in terms of comparable gear to warriors which lets them reach almost equal HP totals and higher AC than warriors as well as spells that let them gain much better aggro quickly and consistantly like high level stuns (Pal) and pure +aggro spells (SK).

Edit: Spelling > Me

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » November 12, 2003, 3:12 pm

Bards called for a monk nerf?

Bullshit. I know of one bard who compared bards and monks recently, and he certainly wasn't calling for a nerf.

Is FM powerful? Damn betcha.

Is it overpowered? Dunno, do you want to return to only having one pulling class in EQ?

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » November 12, 2003, 4:45 pm

I see it more as a pure-melee vs casting classes thing and agree with what Breagen said about it.

When you tally it up, every time a melee class recieved a boost in "power" or ability it was matched by subsequent upgrades in the other classes: we all got AAs, we all got bumped to a lvl 60 cap in Kunark and then 65 in POP. The one partial exception was the discos in Kunark, which were meant to offset the increase in caster abilities from expanded spell lines and mana pools. Discos were over-powered. And pure melee have been paying for that ever since: there have been no subsequent boosts to melee ability to match increases in caster spell lines and mana pools through Velious, Luclin or POP.

Itemization is another are where pure melee "specialists" take it on the chin. The amount of All Plate, All Chain, All Leather drops in place now are horrific, and doubly so because these drops close the gaps from the traditional melee vs casting strengths: the HP and AC edges. From a purely warrior perspective its frustrating to see the amount of gear/weaponry that is Knight or Hybrid only compared to stuff we can use in SOL and POP.

I would like to see itemization brought in line (outside of Time thnx) and I would like to see some type of adjustments made specifically in terms of aggro, but a sit-in is disruptive and not something I support or encourage others in.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » November 12, 2003, 6:32 pm

For the record, Beastlords are mad hard to agro off of. I can pull agro off of every other class within a second or two without a serious degree of difficulty, but in an XP group setting, if a Beastlord goes balls to the walls, I have to work my ass off to hold agro over them. That said, any warrior who takes the time to get a descent agro weapon and adds an anger3 augment to it really doesn't have a hard time holding agro with comparably geared people (unless they are making it hard for him) so this whole warrior whine is bullshit where XP groups are concerned.

Who is overpowered right now? Bards are easily the single most overpowered class in the history of EQ right now. They can tank anything a hybrid can, they have CC abilities comparable to an enchanter, they can use FM to FD with 100% success making them by far and away the best pullers, and finally most bards will never even tap these abilities because the mana/buff abilities that they possess that are unique to them are far to valuable for most guilds to risk them in these other capacities. The only balance to it is that bards require the largest degree of skill to play to their full potential, and therefor the mythical superbard is fairly rare. Mana song nerf was a step in the right direction. The other thing they need to do is remove the mana cost of FM and add a 20 minute or more reuse to it.

Clerics are probably the second most powerful class. The fact that most high end raids require a minimum of 10-30% of your raid force to be one class is pretty telling. They are also the easiest class to play and contribute to a raid. Anyone who can count to two and hit a button can be a functional cleric. They are also the most boring class to play, which is why so many clerics are two boxed these days.

Wizards, Paladins, and Beastlords are all pretty close to being overpowered right now and are in fact dominating in the right situations. Shadowknights and Rogues are probably next on the list with both doing descent damage and being fairly self sufficient, but there really isnt any requirement for either on a raid (Paladins are more effective than SKs and bring BSS and LOH, Monks are more versitile than Rogues and Wizards do more damage) so its a horse a piece there.

I think most other classes are balanced now, with Warriors and Monks being on the hind end of the equasion. If they adjust dual weilding (put the damage bonus back on the offhand, at least partially) and trim stun agro a bit, I think things would come back into balance.

Edit: Fallanthas- Thott posted some bullshit on the bard boards basically calling for a monk nerf using RP based arguments of all things. And as long as there is no restrictions on reuse and no chance of failure, FM is overpowered. Did you know that FD (both the spell and skill) have increased failure rates in certain zones including Time? FM suffers no such restrictions and with the 100% guarentee of it working, the mana cost is irrelavent; you only need one use to do the pull. Bards pulled plenty before FM, thanks to other tools the other two pull classes they eclipsed lacked (Lull song bugged to 15 minutes in its present form, tracking, personal run speed enhancements) and even with FM nerfed, bards will still be the best pullers.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » November 12, 2003, 6:36 pm

Concerning bards;

Jice, you are so full of shit your avatar is brown, bub.

Bards can't tank for crap.

A bard can CC as well as an enchanter? Try doing a hrad adventure and get back to me.

FM rocks. Too bad most bards can only use it three times in a 20 minute stretch due to mana limitations. When you figure out why bards pull so well, you get back to me.

As for the Thott situation, try reading the piece next time. He didn't call for any monk nerf. Monks (who need a little help right now) got pissy about the examples he used and started yelling he was calling for a nerf.

Class envy is bad enough, uninformed envy makes you look like a whiny bitch.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » November 12, 2003, 7:03 pm

A bard who knows their class can pull, CC, and group haste/mana in a hard adventure just fine. A bard has access to all the same AC and HP of gear that knights do, along with the same skill caps and defensive AA. A bard can also use deftdance to move a mob into position like a ranger can with weaponshield, something knights can't do. A Bard can chain mez a mob (even a non mezzable one) and guarentee agro lock on said mob. Tell me where bards are lacking in tanking behind knights again? You just don't see bards tanking because they are so god damned overpowered in every other department. And we both know that all you need is one FM (which has no chance of failing) to execute a pull. These of course are areas that most bards lack the skill to delve into. Bards also have a whole arsenal of incredible abilities that are unique to them.

Even a mediocre bard can simply sit in an all rogue group putting up warcry and Rizonas and ultimately contribute more DPS than any single rogue in the group would individually. The shittiest of bards can simply put up mana song and supply 50+ people with more mana per tic than any enchanter buff can, all while AFK. In any raid involving an AE, an even moderately skilled bard adds the equivalant power of a full group or in many cases are flat out mandatory to even stand a chance against certain encounters.

If you are going to tell me bards are not overpowered, then either you are one of those AFK mana song lazy ass bards or you are the one who is full of shit. Personal experience with you in game tells me its about 50/50 in your case.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » November 12, 2003, 7:15 pm

Ok, let's take this point by point.

Bards don't tank well. First, itemization puts bards pretty close to the bottom of the list for both weapons and armor, so saying a bard CAN have the same hit points and AC as a knight is like saying a human CAN fly if they flap their arms hard enough. Not to mention bards get a lesser return on Hps from stamina AND start with the base HPs of a ranger.

Second, bards are bitching that LULL is useless in hard adventures (closing on an 80% resist rate), much less mez. The only way a bard is going to CC against highly MR mobs is by single pulling.

Chain-mezzing a non-mezzable mob? What the fuck are you smoking? Bards get one unresistable mez. It's an ancient song (Hi Hi Vulak!) and you can't lock more than one mob with it due to the recast.

Aggro? I can run four dots and a warrior can walk in, hit taunt and peel the mob away from me when it's at 60% health. No aggro, no tank. Period.

Yes, I can execute any single pull with FM. Then I can wait for mana to recharge so I can do it again. In my case, it's about ten minutes to get the mana back from a Fade. For a really well equipped bard, it's four and a half minutes. How many times can you FD in four and a half minutes?

Bards are overpowered in one area right now, versatility. Other than that, there isn't anything (Other than maybe pulling) another class can't do better. Your assertion that bards are godly, more powerful than any class in EQ history is not only wrong, it shows your ignorance of where other classes have been in the past. I can come up with three classes off the top of my head that have eclipsed any ability any bard has ever had.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » November 12, 2003, 7:44 pm

Jice Virago wrote:...if a Beastlord goes balls to the walls, I have to work my ass off to hold agro over them.

Necros, shaman and druids too for that matter if they unload on something a the begining of a fight. Proximity is a lot of it too.

Even a mediocre bard can simply sit in an all rogue group putting up warcry and Rizonas and ultimately contribute more DPS than any single rogue in the group would individually.

You could make the exact same statement a single enchanter buffing a whole raid...

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » November 12, 2003, 7:47 pm

Fallanthas wrote:Ok, let's take this point by point.

Please excuse me taking your idea into action to propose a small retort.

Bards don't tank well. First, itemization puts bards pretty close to the bottom of the list for both weapons and armor, so saying a bard CAN have the same hit points and AC as a knight is like saying a human CAN fly if they flap their arms hard enough. Not to mention bards get a lesser return on Hps from stamina AND start with the base HPs of a ranger.

The fact that they _can_ overrules your logic. Although I would expect that bards would be on the low end of itemization for plate classes, check out any elemental guild's bards. Lots upon lots of love.

Second, bards are bitching that LULL is useless in hard adventures (closing on an 80% resist rate), much less mez. The only way a bard is going to CC against highly MR mobs is by single pulling.

Which goes to versatility. The fact that they _can_ overrules the difficulty or skill that goes along in doing it. The restrictions in place on other classes in similar situations makes it impossible for them to do the same, not merely "difficult."

Chain-mezzing a non-mezzable mob? What the fuck are you smoking? Bards get one unresistable mez. It's an ancient song (Hi Hi Vulak!) and you can't lock more than one mob with it due to the recast.

Hi Hi 40 people and 3 hours. Vulak is certainly not a difficult ring at this point. To their credit, OtB farms that ring with as little as 35 (I hear). Vulak is certainly within the power of KoE to farm, and most guilds who see the later progression of Luclin and PoP will have passed through NToV and Ssra/VT and will have had access to those spells.

Aggro? I can run four dots and a warrior can walk in, hit taunt and peel the mob away from me when it's at 60% health. No aggro, no tank. Period.

While I agree with you, I have seen bards peel aggro from my rogue pretty damn easily without me having to hit my evade/escape. I won't offer any clue as to how it was done, but it was certainly a surprise when it happened.

Yes, I can execute any single pull with FM. Then I can wait for mana to recharge so I can do it again. In my case, it's about ten minutes to get the mana back from a Fade. For a really well equipped bard, it's four and a half minutes. How many times can you FD in four and a half minutes?

Yes, and I get that same ability once every 72 minutes. And at the bare minimum, role-play value alone would suggest that I be able to escape combat more quickly than that.

Bards are overpowered in one area right now, versatility. Other than that, there isn't anything (Other than maybe pulling) another class can't do better. Your assertion that bards are godly, more powerful than any class in EQ history is not only wrong, it shows your ignorance of where other classes have been in the past. I can come up with three classes off the top of my head that have eclipsed any ability any bard has ever had.

While in some parts I do agree with you Falla, and your points are very true to what you have seen and experienced in EQ so far, I would challenge you to speak to bards in guilds who have advanced through PoP. Bards are the end all class to be right now. Most guilds would get along perfectly well with 2 warriors, 10 clerics, a few bards and some wizards. Most every other class is marginally helpful, save for buffing. You can replace any non-buff DPS class with a wizard at an overall gain to your raid DPS.

You're not wrong in what you're saying Falla, but in terms of context, you'll understand where Jice is coming from the closer you get to elementals.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » November 12, 2003, 8:22 pm

Voronwë wrote:the only issue that may or may not be relevant is one that broadly effects melee, and that is 2h damage is a bit out of balance with duel wield in my opinion, so duel wield should be upped just a touch. 2h should still be a viable and powerful option.

At the very top end, dual wield appears to be competitive, at least with monks and warriors. There is a thread on steel warriors that has a thread comparing a lot of the configurations.

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/sh ... eadid=3803

Of course, that doesn't mean that the itemization below the type end couldn't stand to be looked at a bit.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » November 12, 2003, 8:58 pm

Pahreyia wrote:
Fallanthas wrote: Second, bards are bitching that LULL is useless in hard adventures (closing on an 80% resist rate), much less mez. The only way a bard is going to CC against highly MR mobs is by single pulling.
Which goes to versatility. The fact that they _can_ overrules the difficulty or skill that goes along in doing it. The restrictions in place on other classes in similar situations makes it impossible for them to do the same, not merely "difficult."

FFS, Lull is wank anyway.. I've 2 boxed through hard adventures with a druid/chanter. Lull is all about wasting a lot of time faffing about unless you're talking about a room of 6 in one pull. And the MR on hard aventure mobs is SOOOO high that the enchanter gets about 10% resist rate on mez w/o tash... I call shenannigans!

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » November 12, 2003, 9:35 pm

why would bards be on the low end of loot?

most guilds only have a few bards, but they are all really dedicated players, so either by merit or DKP they'll get their fatty lewtz =D

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » November 12, 2003, 10:37 pm

In the case of high end guilds, you're absolutely right Voro. I was trying to relate things to Falla specifically based on the level of the game he's seeing, the items available, and what I know of KoE's merit-based award system. It's perfectly reasonable for a bard from Sovereign/Fiends/PD/FS/PE to have bards in Eradication/Void/Speed/Ornate BPs. I'd be willing to venture that it's more common to see that than vindi BP's these days. However, in KoE's case as a guild progressing in Ssra, as a merit system, you would be hard pressed to find bards in anything better than Vindi, as they don't have access to that kind of gear for the classes that would benefit more.

i.e. the guild's main tanks and knights would see an Eradication or Void BP well before you would see a bard in one.

Letania · Post by **Letania** » November 13, 2003, 12:03 am

The fact that the bard is TRYING to mez the mob is what keeps the aggro, it has nothing to do with their ancient song. I don't have much experience with this but I'm clarifying what Jice was saying.

A bard can CC as well as an enchanter? Try doing a hrad adventure and get back to me.

Well, try to mezz a 900 hitter in a robe, then do it on your bard. The bard does it SO much easier, it's ridiculous. You can: Run while mezzing, aren't interrupted by normal hits, have a disc that lets you simply NOT get hit, and.. you can fade to shake the mobs if you're in trouble and mez again. That is MUCH better than what an enchanter can do, which is put up a 2000 point rune, spam bliss/pop eldrich and soak up mana from your cleric.

Obviously if you're talking 5 mobs on a hard pull, a bard isn't going to be successful at mezzing them. But if you're using a bard for mezz and your group pulls 5 mobs, there's no excuse.

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » November 13, 2003, 1:17 am

I've boxed rangers and challenged wizards to pull the mob off me, they can't do it with chain stun (4 stuns, with damage attached

Well duh. Of course they cant pull it off you if they chain stun it.

Letania · Post by **Letania** » November 13, 2003, 6:05 am

raist you nitpicking asshole ;p

you know they aren't stunnable lol

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » November 13, 2003, 9:51 am

By the way, bard mez is pretty low agro. I don't think you would have a lot of luck holding a mob on you by trying to chain mez it.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » November 13, 2003, 9:53 am

Pahreyia wrote:You're not wrong in what you're saying Falla, but in terms of context, you'll understand where Jice is coming from the closer you get to elementals.

What elemental+ folks need to keep in mind is that their guilds aren't representative of guilds in general. There are some huge power jumps as you pass NToV, Ssra, VT, etc..

At a guess most folks will never see the elemental planes (or VT even) for various reasons. Basing a class's balance based on what a small minority can do would be shortsighted, though typical.

Rainus · Post by **Rainus** » November 13, 2003, 10:12 am

as a rogue, there's only a few classes I can't pull aggro from if I try really hard

they include ranger , pally , bst , chanter ,sk, druid.

A ranger that can't hold aggro againstly a rogue doesn't know what he is doing. I've tried Salindrite dagger + SoD combo and any of the above can outtaunt me when they want to.

Pally with chain stuns and just heal me heh

BST with some insane aggro dots + slow
chanter just have to chain tash
SK aggro dots ? I think

Ranger best aggro spell isn't snare like most people think
It's flame lick

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » November 13, 2003, 10:30 am

Yeah but but you need to go to VT and NTOV to get Flame Lick!

AC debuffs always used to piss mobs off spectacularly. I take it this hasn't changed since I last played?