Man oh man......Welcome to Mexifornia. There is also a story floating around the Santa Cruz area about illegals getting fake social security card #'s and once they get nuetralized, they can SUE the Goverenment to get that money transfered into thier real account once they become citizens. WTF is happening to my state?Applicants also would have to provide a thumbprint or fingerprint, as California drivers do now, but such prints could not be used by the Immigration and Naturalization Service to determine an applicant's residency status.
Pandering at it's finest....
Pandering at it's finest....
http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/ ... 9072c.html
Morteus - 60 NE War - Cenarius
Warlord of <Driven>
"I am Jack's Raging Bile Duct....."
Warlord of <Driven>
"I am Jack's Raging Bile Duct....."
My gramps came over from Italy on the boat.... but he did so legally. What's so fucking hard to understand about this? If we keep supporting people that DO NOT pay taxes or put back into the system, we are doomed to economic ruin. We pay for thier healthcare and welfare, yet they pay no fucking income tax. Maybe if we had a flat sales tax, that is the only way I can think of to make it fair on everyone.
Can you honestly say you dont agree with me Kyou? And please explain the reasoning if you do not. Im not starting a flamewar, just trying to understand where you are coming from.
Can you honestly say you dont agree with me Kyou? And please explain the reasoning if you do not. Im not starting a flamewar, just trying to understand where you are coming from.
Morteus - 60 NE War - Cenarius
Warlord of <Driven>
"I am Jack's Raging Bile Duct....."
Warlord of <Driven>
"I am Jack's Raging Bile Duct....."
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Sylvus
- Super Poster!
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But do we actually pay for healthcare and welfare of illegal immigrants? I was under the impression that you'd have to register or something to be eligible for welfare, and that would then make you either a legal immigrant or you'd be sent back from whence you came.
One of my uncles is a dean at some University in Canada and he and a large group of researchers did a study a few years ago regarding illegal immigration in the Americas. I don't remember all the specifics of it, but I remember that one of the states that was in their study was Arizona or New Mexico, and they concluded that without the migrant workers that were illegally in the country, there would actually be a negative unemployment rate in that state, if that were possible. The point he was making when telling me about it was that for all the bitching people do about illegal immigrants, most of the work that they do is deemed "shit-work" by citizens of the US and most of them would rather collect unemployment than do the jobs that immigrants are taking. As we need those jobs to get done, it would actually hurt us to get rid of all the illegal immigrants.
One of my uncles is a dean at some University in Canada and he and a large group of researchers did a study a few years ago regarding illegal immigration in the Americas. I don't remember all the specifics of it, but I remember that one of the states that was in their study was Arizona or New Mexico, and they concluded that without the migrant workers that were illegally in the country, there would actually be a negative unemployment rate in that state, if that were possible. The point he was making when telling me about it was that for all the bitching people do about illegal immigrants, most of the work that they do is deemed "shit-work" by citizens of the US and most of them would rather collect unemployment than do the jobs that immigrants are taking. As we need those jobs to get done, it would actually hurt us to get rid of all the illegal immigrants.
"It's like these guys take pride in being ignorant." - Barack Obama
Go Blue!
Go Blue!
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Fallanthas
- Way too much time!
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Yes Sylvus, California is rather well known for paying out all types of welfare bennies to illegal immigrants.
Just recently we had a long thread here over a woman suing a hostpital for the death of her daughter, even though the mother was in the country illegally and had no right to the health care her daughter received int he first place.
Just recently we had a long thread here over a woman suing a hostpital for the death of her daughter, even though the mother was in the country illegally and had no right to the health care her daughter received int he first place.
California doesn't pay welfare out to illegal immigrants. Show me anything that says California pays out welfare to illegal immigrants. Some benefit programs they have access to. This includes things that mostly benefit society as a whole such as mental health services.Fallanthas wrote:Yes Sylvus, California is rather well known for paying out all types of welfare bennies to illegal immigrants.
it is virtually impossible go guard against mexicans coming over hte border in search of jobs and a way to feed their kids without building a giant fucking wall with guard towers that shoot them on sight (which I am sure a lot of you fucking worthless rednecks would love). mexicans don't come across the border so they can live in squalor and destitution up here like they did in mexico. they come up here to work, and most of them work a lot fucking harder than you ever will in your overweight lifetimes, and they work jobs that you would consider beneath your racial stature. It behooves society as a whole to give these people enough advantages so they can find work and start becoming productive members of society. most of them do pay income taxes because income taxes are deducted from their pay just like any other job. It is always the employer's responsibility to send the government their deductions in jobs like most of them work in. whether or not these illegals fill out a tax return or whatever the fuck the IRS requires citizens to file, they still get their tax.
those people had medical bills to pay, and they paid them. a lot of the money came from charitable contributions from private citizens (yes people actually give other people money to help them out, as alien as that may seem to you), but they still paid their medical bills. besides, would you not travel to a country illegally if it meant getting superior health care for your terminally ill child? wait, I'm probably asking the wrong person as you probably would not, being a self centered fucking asshole that can't think beyond himself.Just recently we had a long thread here over a woman suing a hostpital for the death of her daughter, even though the mother was in the country illegally and had no right to the health care her daughter received int he first place.
most mexicans are probably worth 10 of you anyway.
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Fairweather Pure
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If you combine every social program in the US, it amounts to around 50 Billion, or about $415 per taxpayer ($1.15 per day from each of us). However, Corporate welfare is over 170 Billion, which is about $1,388 from each of us each year. These same companies can turn record profits, yet still be granted hundreds of millions in federal tax monies in the same year.
You need to keep things in perspective. The real problem is in our own back yard, and unfortunately, it is an agreement between our government, it's officials, and the highest bidder.
You need to keep things in perspective. The real problem is in our own back yard, and unfortunately, it is an agreement between our government, it's officials, and the highest bidder.
I am no fan of corporate welfare, but what definition of social program are you using that has us spending only 50 billion total? Looking at the 2004 budget (not implemented yet, but easy to find numbers for and close enough) I found
The big boys (all values are in billions of dollars)
Social Security 452
Medicare 228
Medicaid and SCHIP 151
departments that tend to be focused more on social type programs
Education 48.5
Health and Human Services 59.5
Housing and Urban Development 29.4
State and International Assistance programs 23
Social Security Administration 6.4
That is very rough, but its way over 50 billion.
The big boys (all values are in billions of dollars)
Social Security 452
Medicare 228
Medicaid and SCHIP 151
departments that tend to be focused more on social type programs
Education 48.5
Health and Human Services 59.5
Housing and Urban Development 29.4
State and International Assistance programs 23
Social Security Administration 6.4
That is very rough, but its way over 50 billion.
Kyou, it's not the fact that they're hard workers or they do jobs that others won't. It's the fact that they do this illegally (you can look up ends not justifying the means in any of your GWB posts) and the sheer numbers of them that cross into the US. We have social welfare programs in place at a cost of billions of dollars of taxpayer money in California alone. Granted, California's economy is bad enough as it is, but emergency services, police, INS, border patrol, quarantine and deportation procedures cost thousands _per_ person that enters the US illegally and is caught. Yeah, it sucks that shit ain't so great in Mexico either, but that's not the result of American undermining of their economy. Hell, hundreds of manufacturers have moved american businesses to mexico. While they did so to cut manufacturing costs, they are providing employment and training, to a degree, to mexican workers.
Regardless of the "human rights" tree-huggers inc. argument, there are laws in place in the US that prohibit people from entering the country without valid reason and documentation to enter. Illegal immigrants are breaking the law.
Regardless of the "human rights" tree-huggers inc. argument, there are laws in place in the US that prohibit people from entering the country without valid reason and documentation to enter. Illegal immigrants are breaking the law.
Koyu, that's not the same thing and you know it.
The point is as Pahreyia stated... they are doing it illegally. There are a large number of people from Mexcio in Arkansas now. Almost all whom I've come to know did so legally. They wait sometimes years to get their families over. This bullshit hurts them too, it hurts everyone who obey's immigration laws.
One can also look at stopping the overflow in this way. IF we don't stop it, eventually no one will want to come because things will be so bad here as well. Part of a Government's job is to protect it's people and ensure they have a prosperous country to grow up in. The way things are going, on many levels, those in this country (the US) and those coming to it legally may not have that 50 years down the road...
Marb
The point is as Pahreyia stated... they are doing it illegally. There are a large number of people from Mexcio in Arkansas now. Almost all whom I've come to know did so legally. They wait sometimes years to get their families over. This bullshit hurts them too, it hurts everyone who obey's immigration laws.
One can also look at stopping the overflow in this way. IF we don't stop it, eventually no one will want to come because things will be so bad here as well. Part of a Government's job is to protect it's people and ensure they have a prosperous country to grow up in. The way things are going, on many levels, those in this country (the US) and those coming to it legally may not have that 50 years down the road...
Marb
I sense a pattern of racism from you towards middle white class males. I dont care that your lover is a black man. Maybe you think the white man has held him back or something. But every single argument
you have is based on your hatred towards the middle class white male. I find this old and very petty.
Bottom line is, just get over yourself. You cried like a baby when cart made some dumbass remark about your boyfriend. Yet you can take shots at every white male? Hypocrite at your finest.
you have is based on your hatred towards the middle class white male. I find this old and very petty.
Bottom line is, just get over yourself. You cried like a baby when cart made some dumbass remark about your boyfriend. Yet you can take shots at every white male? Hypocrite at your finest.
I have no guilt. I have caused no harm or "held" any PERSON back in my life. Ive done nothing but try and help others around me.
Its your constant remarks on how everything is the fault of the white middle class man. This isnt a case of me feeling guilty, its a case of you being racist. I will bet almost 90% of all your posts in current events, you have accused the white male of doing everything wrong. Hell you even attacked a black adult on how hes a uncle tom and tring to fit in to the white class by working his ass off to get ahead in life.
That alone shows how racist you are. I know you have some issues to work out for yourself. Maybe one day you will relize theres more problems than just the evil white middle class,uncle tom black men who hold back people. You seriously need some help, and with almost every single post you make,you do nothing but show how messed up in the head you are.
Its your constant remarks on how everything is the fault of the white middle class man. This isnt a case of me feeling guilty, its a case of you being racist. I will bet almost 90% of all your posts in current events, you have accused the white male of doing everything wrong. Hell you even attacked a black adult on how hes a uncle tom and tring to fit in to the white class by working his ass off to get ahead in life.
That alone shows how racist you are. I know you have some issues to work out for yourself. Maybe one day you will relize theres more problems than just the evil white middle class,uncle tom black men who hold back people. You seriously need some help, and with almost every single post you make,you do nothing but show how messed up in the head you are.
"California doesn't pay welfare out to illegal immigrants. Show me anything that says California pays out welfare to illegal immigrants. Some benefit programs they have access to. This includes things that mostly benefit society as a whole such as mental health services."
It is really tough to find an impartial article on the subject so I should preface this quote by saying it is from a conservite article:
"The state's health-care crisis is largely driven by immigrants. There are roughly 7 million people in California without health insurance. About 4 million of them are immigrants or the young children of immigrants.
Half of all welfare usage in the state is from immigrant households, and 32 percent of all illegal-immigrant households receive benefits from at least one welfare program. The average welfare payment--just counting the four major welfare programs--to illegal-immigrant households is $1,400 a year.
Half of all kids in the public-school system are from immigrant families, a dramatic increase in the number of kids in schools without a corresponding increase in the tax base. About half of immigrants are too poor to pay any income taxes.
According to a National Academy of Sciences study in 1997, the average immigrant household represented a net fiscal drain on the state of $3,500 a year. If you do the math (not even adjusting for inflation), that would mean that immigrant households cost state and local governments to the tune of $11 billion."
From the NCPA (much more reputable):
"The average immigrant family received $1,404 in total benefits per year during the first five years, $1,941 in the second five, $2,247 in the third, and $2,279 in years 16 through 25 after immigration.
By contrast, American-born families averaged $2,279 per year across their lives."
Given the chance, I would support prop 187. If labor got too expensive, goods would get too expensive and the markets would have to evolve into something else. Having cheap labor available has never been a good argument to me.
That being said, California does pay a huge amount to illegal immigrants in the form of welfare.
It is really tough to find an impartial article on the subject so I should preface this quote by saying it is from a conservite article:
"The state's health-care crisis is largely driven by immigrants. There are roughly 7 million people in California without health insurance. About 4 million of them are immigrants or the young children of immigrants.
Half of all welfare usage in the state is from immigrant households, and 32 percent of all illegal-immigrant households receive benefits from at least one welfare program. The average welfare payment--just counting the four major welfare programs--to illegal-immigrant households is $1,400 a year.
Half of all kids in the public-school system are from immigrant families, a dramatic increase in the number of kids in schools without a corresponding increase in the tax base. About half of immigrants are too poor to pay any income taxes.
According to a National Academy of Sciences study in 1997, the average immigrant household represented a net fiscal drain on the state of $3,500 a year. If you do the math (not even adjusting for inflation), that would mean that immigrant households cost state and local governments to the tune of $11 billion."
From the NCPA (much more reputable):
"The average immigrant family received $1,404 in total benefits per year during the first five years, $1,941 in the second five, $2,247 in the third, and $2,279 in years 16 through 25 after immigration.
By contrast, American-born families averaged $2,279 per year across their lives."
Given the chance, I would support prop 187. If labor got too expensive, goods would get too expensive and the markets would have to evolve into something else. Having cheap labor available has never been a good argument to me.
That being said, California does pay a huge amount to illegal immigrants in the form of welfare.
That article rarely mentions illegal immigrants and focusses on immigrants in general. In fact it only mentions illegal immigrants in one sentence.Avestan wrote:"California doesn't pay welfare out to illegal immigrants. Show me anything that says California pays out welfare to illegal immigrants. Some benefit programs they have access to. This includes things that mostly benefit society as a whole such as mental health services."
It is really tough to find an impartial article on the subject so I should preface this quote by saying it is from a conservite article:
"The state's health-care crisis is largely driven by immigrants. There are roughly 7 million people in California without health insurance. About 4 million of them are immigrants or the young children of immigrants.
Half of all welfare usage in the state is from immigrant households, and 32 percent of all illegal-immigrant households receive benefits from at least one welfare program. The average welfare payment--just counting the four major welfare programs--to illegal-immigrant households is $1,400 a year.
Half of all kids in the public-school system are from immigrant families, a dramatic increase in the number of kids in schools without a corresponding increase in the tax base. About half of immigrants are too poor to pay any income taxes.
According to a National Academy of Sciences study in 1997, the average immigrant household represented a net fiscal drain on the state of $3,500 a year. If you do the math (not even adjusting for inflation), that would mean that immigrant households cost state and local governments to the tune of $11 billion."
From the NCPA (much more reputable):
"The average immigrant family received $1,404 in total benefits per year during the first five years, $1,941 in the second five, $2,247 in the third, and $2,279 in years 16 through 25 after immigration.
By contrast, American-born families averaged $2,279 per year across their lives."
Given the chance, I would support prop 187. If labor got too expensive, goods would get too expensive and the markets would have to evolve into something else. Having cheap labor available has never been a good argument to me.
That being said, California does pay a huge amount to illegal immigrants in the form of welfare.
In fact the only time it mentions illegal immigrants it seems to say that illegal immigrants are less of a drain on society than the legal ones, which makes sense since legalized immigrants have a wide selection of social services -- including welfare -- available to them that illegal ones do not.
Although a little dated (from 1995) here is an interesting publication going over some economic numbers regarding immigration (legal and illegal).
http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/ ... l#contents
In particular regarding illegal immigration and welfare it has the following to say regarding the net effect.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-imtax.html
http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/ ... l#contents
In particular regarding illegal immigration and welfare it has the following to say regarding the net effect.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-imtax.html
Personally, as long as they want to come in and work, I say let them. I would like to see our immigration quotas raised a decent amount as well.In the previous chapter, the expenditures on illegal aliens
were estimated to be about $1,390 per capita, which is
considerably less than for legal immigrants and about 38 percent
of the level for natives. This means that, if, on average,
illegal immigrants pay at least 38 percent as much taxes as
natives, they will be paying their own way.
Clark et al. (Table 6.2) estimate that the 2.8 percent of
the undocumented population in the seven states pays 1.3 percent
of the total of sales, income, and property taxes, or 1.3/2.8 =
46 percent as much taxes as natives. If--and there seems little
reason to estimate a higher or lower figure--the same proportion
holds for total taxes, then taxes paid by illegals more than
offset the costs of the services that they use. That is, the 46
percent of the average natives' inflow that immigrants pay in
taxes is a greater amount than the 38 percent of the average
natives' outlays on the illegals. And assuming that total U.S.
inflows balance total outlays, and that other public outlays on
account of illegals are not greater than for natives (indeed,
they surely are much less), illegals are more than paying their
own way and are contributing to the public coffers. If one were
to make any reasonable accounting for the low marginal
expenditures on public goods such as defense and foreign
activities in connection with illegals, the accounting would look
even more favorable for illegals.
I was simply after numbers, not analyses. It is true that illegal immigrants represent a significant cost to the country and especially to the State of California. That being said, I do not support "shipping them all home" or building a wall at the border. The solution needs to start from the Mexican government (which happens to really like the current situation). What I want to eliminate is having people in the country using national assets that do not pay taxes.
I would support the creation of a non illegal status for workers to come to the Unites Stats as long as they are paying taxes. I do not like giving full benefits (public school, health care, welfare) to people who do not pay taxes. There are a ton of poor people in this country who are not illegal immigrants. If they work, they pay. I am just looking for equity.
I would support the creation of a non illegal status for workers to come to the Unites Stats as long as they are paying taxes. I do not like giving full benefits (public school, health care, welfare) to people who do not pay taxes. There are a ton of poor people in this country who are not illegal immigrants. If they work, they pay. I am just looking for equity.
The ethical relativism should be abundantly clear. Hence the word: Illegal.kyoukan wrote:why? his only contention was that they were breaking the law. if he fails to bring any sort of ethical or financial relatavism into the argument then why should I?Cartalas wrote:Yeah thats a great example, Dumb fuck!
As for economic relativism: There are many cases, and I wish I had numbers, of very pregnant women crossing over to the US to have children. The children, born on American soil are technically american citizens. Now, as such, they're due social welfare programs and emergency medical procedures. As the mother, or family, can't afford the bill, the state usually has to pick it up because by the time the hospital gets that information, the child is already born.
Do this a couple hundred times a year at the cost of thousands of dollars each time...
Most people know they are breaking the law then they do it. Do you know what moral and ethical relativism means?
your argument rested solely on the premise that it was against the law. that is a stupid man's argument because to some extent everyone breaks the law. its all well and good to say that sneaking across the border is and abusing california's social assistance programs are more heinous than speeding or jaywalking, but they're all laws.
you have to take a more pro-active stance than "its against the law" unless you are robocop or something. otherwise if they changed the law to allow anyone who wanted to come up from mexico and start collecting welfare whenever they felt like it then that means you would be perfectly fine with that because it is no longer against the law.
regardless of that, California really has 2 choices. They can build the aformentioned enormous wall across the mexican border, or they can deal with the problem of immigrants always coming over the border. There really aren't other options because there is no way you can patrol the entire thing and keep everybody out. frankly, if you dont the wall then you have to prepared to eat the cost of supporting the mexicans and south americans that do make it across the border. you can clamp your hands over yours ears, scream about how the wetbacks are ruining california, deny them access to social assistance benefits and let them sink or swim, and you are going to get a lot more crime and destitution in an area that can already be pretty destitute. or you can spend the money and help them out as much as you can for them to get their feet up under them and becoming productive and taxpaying members of society.
it's pragmatism at its easiest level.
what I don't understand is why it is so hard to get into a country that is supposed to encourage immigration. I thought the saying was "bring us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses" and not "bring us your 25-30 year old college educated anglo"? If 99% of all mexicans didn't have a prayer of getting passed INS maybe there wouldnt be such a problem with border jumping?
your argument rested solely on the premise that it was against the law. that is a stupid man's argument because to some extent everyone breaks the law. its all well and good to say that sneaking across the border is and abusing california's social assistance programs are more heinous than speeding or jaywalking, but they're all laws.
you have to take a more pro-active stance than "its against the law" unless you are robocop or something. otherwise if they changed the law to allow anyone who wanted to come up from mexico and start collecting welfare whenever they felt like it then that means you would be perfectly fine with that because it is no longer against the law.
regardless of that, California really has 2 choices. They can build the aformentioned enormous wall across the mexican border, or they can deal with the problem of immigrants always coming over the border. There really aren't other options because there is no way you can patrol the entire thing and keep everybody out. frankly, if you dont the wall then you have to prepared to eat the cost of supporting the mexicans and south americans that do make it across the border. you can clamp your hands over yours ears, scream about how the wetbacks are ruining california, deny them access to social assistance benefits and let them sink or swim, and you are going to get a lot more crime and destitution in an area that can already be pretty destitute. or you can spend the money and help them out as much as you can for them to get their feet up under them and becoming productive and taxpaying members of society.
it's pragmatism at its easiest level.
what I don't understand is why it is so hard to get into a country that is supposed to encourage immigration. I thought the saying was "bring us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses" and not "bring us your 25-30 year old college educated anglo"? If 99% of all mexicans didn't have a prayer of getting passed INS maybe there wouldnt be such a problem with border jumping?
You had a great post going until here. I'll respond to that in a moment.what I don't understand is why it is so hard to get into a country that is supposed to encourage immigration. I thought the saying was "bring us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses" and not "bring us your 25-30 year old college educated anglo"? If 99% of all mexicans didn't have a prayer of getting passed INS maybe there wouldnt be such a problem with border jumping?
The problem isn't that the people crossing into california don't have a chance of passing through the INS, it's that the government has declared quotas on the numbers of immigrants that are allowed to come into the US each year. The US assumes the responsibility of social welfare for these people, but to a degree. If we were to allow every person who wanted to escape squalor in Mexico, Korea, China, Russia, Haiti, the Dominican Republic and South America access to citizenship in the US, we would not only have a problem with funding for education, training, medical and welfare programs, but we would have a huge increase in the natural formation of ghettos and crime spots, as people of like ethnic or natural origin would tend to stay near familiar people, or like-speaking immigrants.
On to the other point..
The difference in the rationalization of my ethical argument is that most all middle aged anglo automobile speed violators are willing and able to pay restitution to the state if served a ticket. In the case of the pregnant mothers who come across to have their babies delivered as American citizens, they are unable and unwilling to pay restitution. We can't send an american citizen to be deported with it's illegally immigrated mother, and the mother or family most certainly won't be able to pay the medical bills, plus the followup medical examinations, plus support their families at a level above the economically designated "poverty line." Families at this level are guaranteed special dispensation of welfare programs to help them get beyond their situations. However, without training or fluency in basic english, most of these people have very difficult times finding even minimum wage jobs. And so you hear about local sweat shops from time to time, or day laborers who are picked up on the side of the road for menial labor and are paid generally atrocious wages. If the family resorts to crime as a means of support, more often than not, we can't deport because of the child until legal separation procedures are concluded and the child is awarded to the state, which, in a liberal state like California, isn't going to happen. So the taxpayers pay hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in maintaining prisons that house illegal immigrants who, while imprisoned, probably are still living better than in the native country.
I'll seek a response before continuing, as this has become long winded already.
Giving birth to a child on US soil makes that child a citizen. INS will not allow the mother to stay in the country if she is an illegal however. Yes this is happened a lot of times. No they never get to stay. They either take the kid back with them or the kid becomes a ward of the state or is put up for adoption.
Anyone who works in the U.S., whether they are citizens, immigrants, or illegal immigrants, pays taxes. It is the employers obligation to take taxes out of their check and give it to the gov't. If an employer does not do this, it is in fact the employer that is detrimental to society and not the employee.
Now, this discussion is not necessarily about whether illegal immigrants pay taxes or not, it is about whether illlegal immigrants gain benefits without paying taxes.
I'm speaking from experience here. I admit that I do not know the exact numbers. Most of the illegal immigrants that come over from mexico come here to work. If they work, they pay taxes. I would think that the number of illegals who come here to abuse the welfare system are so miniscule that they can be ignored. In fact, I would wager that the U.S. makes more money from illegals who work then it pays those who don't.
Can anyone dispute this with cold hard numbers?
Now, this discussion is not necessarily about whether illegal immigrants pay taxes or not, it is about whether illlegal immigrants gain benefits without paying taxes.
I'm speaking from experience here. I admit that I do not know the exact numbers. Most of the illegal immigrants that come over from mexico come here to work. If they work, they pay taxes. I would think that the number of illegals who come here to abuse the welfare system are so miniscule that they can be ignored. In fact, I would wager that the U.S. makes more money from illegals who work then it pays those who don't.
Can anyone dispute this with cold hard numbers?
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
This is a tough topic. There are a lot of arguments going both ways on the issue of immigration. My belief is that everyone should go through a selection process to be admitted to our country. This is the 19th century anymore where anyone that wants to come can. I have no problems accepting only those people who can pay their own way when they get here. If that ends up being predominately white college educated individuals then so be it. Better that than us educating them in our universities and then letting them go home. I work for a university and most foreign students who study here want to stay here. Often it is pretty difficult for them but if they can get a job and a Work card then they are usually set. The best part is that they are paying taxes.
Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes, yet they take taxes through social programs. They come here and work low paying jobs and are usually paid under the table for a pittance what an American would work for. I have heard said that they will work jobs that Americans won't do. Well if the employers would pay a better wage then Americans would work those jobs. That of course leads to other problems.
There isn't a lot we can do right now though with the huge illegal immigrant population that we have. I would amnesty them in and get them on the tax rolls. If an employer isn't subtracting taxes from their work then we should go after that employer. We still need to institute more border patrols to keep anymore from coming through and we need to be much more aggressive on those that do and those that don't declare amnesty.
Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes, yet they take taxes through social programs. They come here and work low paying jobs and are usually paid under the table for a pittance what an American would work for. I have heard said that they will work jobs that Americans won't do. Well if the employers would pay a better wage then Americans would work those jobs. That of course leads to other problems.
There isn't a lot we can do right now though with the huge illegal immigrant population that we have. I would amnesty them in and get them on the tax rolls. If an employer isn't subtracting taxes from their work then we should go after that employer. We still need to institute more border patrols to keep anymore from coming through and we need to be much more aggressive on those that do and those that don't declare amnesty.
Deward
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Silvarel Mistmoon
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The illegal immigrants do not pay taxes when the employers are paying them cash under the table.Anyone who works in the U.S., whether they are citizens, immigrants, or illegal immigrants, pays taxes. It is the employers obligation to take taxes out of their check and give it to the gov't. If an employer does not do this, it is in fact the employer that is detrimental to society and not the employee.
Here in the Birmingham Alabama area you can go to a street corner in Hoover and get out of your truck hold up how ever many fingers for the amount of workers you need, they will jump in the truck go do what ever work you need them to do and you pay them cash.
Even construction companies are doing this and it happens in all of the states. They pay them less and they pay them under the table. Why should they bother with the paper work to become legal when they can get work and not pay taxes.
It is a problem with so many coming in this country illegal but it is also the fault of those that hire them for the lower wages and paying them under the table.
If these employers would pay fairly then Americans would do the work these illegals are doing but the employers would rather pay them under the table a little cash and a beer so they can keep more money in their own pocket.
Pay people what they are worth and they will work and that is true of all people every where.
We moved here 6 years ago and there wasn't very many hispanic people here, now there are hundreds of them. There has been a huge growth in them. I don't think they are all from Mexico, there are several that look like they may be from some where else.
Last night on the news they talked with a woman here that was with the Hispanic City Commerce. I couldn't believe it they have their own City Commerce.
Safe Travels,
Silvarel Mistmoon
Silvarel Mistmoon
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Fallanthas
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Krimson Klaw
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Who gives a care that there are "hundreds of hispanics here", you sound like you have a hispanic phobia. Listen, it's not the hispanics fault for wanting a better life for themselves or their families. The blame is on those greedy buttholes that take advantage of them, hold up thier fingers like you say, and pay them garbage. I am all for tougher border control and I have no problem with legal immigrants, but we have an immigration process for a reason. I blame my government, and the under the table buttholes.
-edit- my dads life long friends contracting business is close to going under because he refuses to hire illegals under the table like his competition. He employs legal immigrants and home grown Americans, and pays them fair wages, but he says he simply cannot compete with the contractors that use these shady hiring practices and pay under the table to a truck load of illegals that do the same amount of work for a quarter of the wages. I feel sorry for him, but he's going down with his convictions I guess. He could easily stay afloat by doing the same thing. Like someone said earlier though, you are not going to stop illegals from entering America as long as Mexico is such a horrid place to live. If I were born there, I'd come here illegally too, I don't blame them. I really don't know of a way to get taxes from these under the table deals, I guess you could start setting up more stings. I actually saw one of these once at a factory in Murfreesboro TN, immigration paid a surprise visit, and about 200 people went swarming all over the place trying to flee. check the books, bust the companies that are doing this crap I guess because illegals are not gonna stop coming, but we can do something about companies getting over with paying them 2 bucks an hour.
double edit- that will just cause the companies to open factories and businesses in other countries though. I am out of ideas, seems like there is a tit for every tat on this issue. Hold them accountable, and htey take their ball and go to another country.
-edit- my dads life long friends contracting business is close to going under because he refuses to hire illegals under the table like his competition. He employs legal immigrants and home grown Americans, and pays them fair wages, but he says he simply cannot compete with the contractors that use these shady hiring practices and pay under the table to a truck load of illegals that do the same amount of work for a quarter of the wages. I feel sorry for him, but he's going down with his convictions I guess. He could easily stay afloat by doing the same thing. Like someone said earlier though, you are not going to stop illegals from entering America as long as Mexico is such a horrid place to live. If I were born there, I'd come here illegally too, I don't blame them. I really don't know of a way to get taxes from these under the table deals, I guess you could start setting up more stings. I actually saw one of these once at a factory in Murfreesboro TN, immigration paid a surprise visit, and about 200 people went swarming all over the place trying to flee. check the books, bust the companies that are doing this crap I guess because illegals are not gonna stop coming, but we can do something about companies getting over with paying them 2 bucks an hour.
double edit- that will just cause the companies to open factories and businesses in other countries though. I am out of ideas, seems like there is a tit for every tat on this issue. Hold them accountable, and htey take their ball and go to another country.
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Kilmoll the Sexy
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Xyun wrote:Anyone who works in the U.S., whether they are citizens, immigrants, or illegal immigrants, pays taxes. It is the employers obligation to take taxes out of their check and give it to the gov't. If an employer does not do this, it is in fact the employer that is detrimental to society and not the employee.
this is false. Workers in contract situations have no money removed automatically. You are required to pay whatever your tax would be out of pocket at tax time in April.
Heh, Krim, you basically covered why this is such a difficult issue.
It's not the illegal's fault for wanting a better life. People shouting and pointing that they're illegal and a drain and yadda yadda yadda have no idea what it's like to not have simple needs like food or shelter for themselves or for their children. They just want something better and they know they can get it here. They know they can get it here because they know certain types of occupations pay under the table or are available because noone else wants them.
It ain't the illegal that's causing the problem. It stems from companies nickel and diming to earn a living. If they aren't doing it here, they'll do it somewhere else. And a lot of that can be tied to the ridiculous trade deficits caused by a few former and present notables in public office.
Sorry to hear about your fathers friend's business. There is no way in hell he can compete. So long as people want to upgrade their homes w/ pools or landscaping or roofs or anything that can cost a homeowner a ton of money otherwise, honest busniesses in that market are always going to be in trouble. What's worse though, the people hired for cheap labor or the people hired legally but scout out your home for shit to rob.
It's not the illegal's fault for wanting a better life. People shouting and pointing that they're illegal and a drain and yadda yadda yadda have no idea what it's like to not have simple needs like food or shelter for themselves or for their children. They just want something better and they know they can get it here. They know they can get it here because they know certain types of occupations pay under the table or are available because noone else wants them.
It ain't the illegal that's causing the problem. It stems from companies nickel and diming to earn a living. If they aren't doing it here, they'll do it somewhere else. And a lot of that can be tied to the ridiculous trade deficits caused by a few former and present notables in public office.
Sorry to hear about your fathers friend's business. There is no way in hell he can compete. So long as people want to upgrade their homes w/ pools or landscaping or roofs or anything that can cost a homeowner a ton of money otherwise, honest busniesses in that market are always going to be in trouble. What's worse though, the people hired for cheap labor or the people hired legally but scout out your home for shit to rob.
the way to combat the problem is to go after the people who hire the illegals. like the case Krimson described. its the same thing as companies not wanting to hire American workers. Part of the problem is that American workers cost more. The other part of the problem is, that they need a big share of the revenue to pay for middle and upper management's disproportionate salaries. Cutting labor costs is one way to do this.
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Skogen
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"We'll take the niggers and chinks....but WE DON"T WANT THE IRISH!!"
I live in LA...the population of illegal immigrants here is astounding. The only way it has directly affected me as when one of them hit my car. He had no license, no insurance. No nothing. I was left with a nice, big dent, and he was left with a one way ticket back to mexico.
I live in LA...the population of illegal immigrants here is astounding. The only way it has directly affected me as when one of them hit my car. He had no license, no insurance. No nothing. I was left with a nice, big dent, and he was left with a one way ticket back to mexico.
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Silvarel Mistmoon
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Not sure if that first part of your post was to me or not Krimson but I don't have a phobia over anything or anyone. I was pointing out how fast the hispanics have grown in this area and it not being a boarder state it has grown very fast and is still growing.I also agree that the men or companies that hire these people knowing they are illegal and paying them like they do are to blame for the growth of illegals.
Safe Travels,
Silvarel Mistmoon
Silvarel Mistmoon
