This is gonna start a shitstorm

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 22, 2003, 11:21 am

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/ ... index.html

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » August 22, 2003, 11:28 am

o yea.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » August 22, 2003, 11:30 am

So what else is new? This is basically whats been going on since the first intifada, then a break, then onto the 2nd intifada.
.
Palastinian kills israelis just going about there daily lives via suicide bomb. Isrealis resprise by assasinating a Hamas or Islamic Jihad leader via rockets from a helicopter, and kill a bunch of innocents as well. Palastinians get revenge by killing more israelis via suicide bomb. Isreal responds by rolling tanks into West Bank, Gaza & Golan Heights, shooting anything that moves. Fire HE rounds into houses occupied by families. Palastinians respond by suicide bombing, killing a bunch of isrealis...women, children, anyone. and on ..and on....

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » August 22, 2003, 11:46 am

agree skogen, I see nothing new here.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 22, 2003, 11:56 am

There will never be peace there with the current Israeli President. Hard to make peace with a war ciminal and a slaughterer.

Note: I am not calling one side saints and one side hellspawn. I just really dislike Sharon.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » August 22, 2003, 12:01 pm

I doubt there will ever be peace between these two. Maybe if they were separated for a generation, then allowed to intermingle with some close mediation, but I'm not sure even that would do the trick.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » August 22, 2003, 12:12 pm

Nothing will change while the Israeli administration continue their hardline stance that hands any zealot with a hand grenade a veto on the entire peace process.

The slow-moving peace process regarding northern ireland would have got nowhere had the UK government taken that line because as soon as you agree a ceasefire with the bulk of the terrorist organizations, hardline splinter groups form to carry on "the struggle". So we have a peace process of a kind, while the "Real IRA" and the "Continuity IRA" (as well as a lot of the loyalist shitheads) continue their illegal activities even while the original Provisional IRA maintains it's ceasefire.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » August 22, 2003, 12:12 pm

Kelshara wrote:There will never be peace there with the current Israeli President. Hard to make peace with a war ciminal and a slaughterer.

Note: I am not calling one side saints and one side hellspawn. I just really dislike Sharon.

Yes and the palestinians are much better with the suicide bombings. Honestly, the situation will never change regardless of the leader. Btw where is the conviction in the world court that Sharon is a War Criminal?

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » August 22, 2003, 12:20 pm

Btw where is the conviction in the world court that Sharon is a War Criminal?

I'm not certain there is one but he was in direct command of the units that committed atrocities in Palestinian refugee camps in the 70s. There's no physical proof but to deny he had something to do with it stretched credibility.
Either way the arabs certainly view him as a murderous monster and him being in charge of Israel is decidedly unhelpful in this respect.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 22, 2003, 12:20 pm

Do a quick Google search brainiac. He got thrown out of the Israeli government at the time for sending people in to slaughter refugee camps.

And read my post again, I clearly stated that I didn't call one side better or worse than the other. But I guess I shouldn't expect much reading skills from you by now.

After having read the article again I found this part interesting:

Abu Shanab was considered by many to be a moderate member of Hamas' political wing and was an architect of the Palestinian cease-fire, in effect before the most recent violence.

Nice showing, killing one of the guys that actually work FOR peace.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » August 22, 2003, 12:25 pm

Atokal wrote:
Kelshara wrote:There will never be peace there with the current Israeli President. Hard to make peace with a war ciminal and a slaughterer.

Note: I am not calling one side saints and one side hellspawn. I just really dislike Sharon.
Yes and the palestinians are much better with the suicide bombings. Honestly, the situation will never change regardless of the leader. Btw where is the conviction in the world court that Sharon is a War Criminal?

Go and read a history book before you talk about things you know nothing about.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 22, 2003, 12:32 pm

i don't have a very positive outlook on the situation there.

There is no negotiating with religious extremists unless a bullet to the head is called negotiation.

The solution is that the normal everyday people of the region, the Jews and the Palestinians need to form an army to kill the extremist Jews and the extremist Arabs. I think killing people is a horrible thing to do, but as long as the extremists draw breath, they will be waging war, regardless of what side of the fence they live on.

We can either wait for Sharon and Arafat's generation to die, and hope their influence does not extend far past the grave, or kill them now and save tons of lives.

That of course won't happen.

There is no solution in my opinion. Sharon's government is not really following the "roadmap", and Abas' government is impotent. Being squeezed from both sides by Sharon and Arafat. He has been put in a position where failure is the likely outcome. And that is partially the responsibility of the US. It was through our actions that he came to be in this spot.

But Tanc is right, there is no way to keep this peace with the way the Israeli government reacts to violence. There will always be some Palestian radical groups (well as long as the occupation persists) who have no interest in peace. This is a law enforcement problem for the Palestinian Authority that must be addressed. But the PA does not have the authority to police much of the areas that are terrorist hotbeds.

all it takes is a handfull of people to excercise a suicide bombing, and there will always be a few people who oppose the peace process. The way it is set up now, the process is too delicate to survive.

It is absolutely horrible what those insane maniacs (the suicide bombers) do to families. I saw this horrible footage of infants that had been maimed by the recent blast.

anyways...its hopeless probably.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » August 22, 2003, 12:35 pm

It was through our actions that he

That he WHAT!?!?! OMG I NEED CLOSURE!

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 22, 2003, 12:37 pm

fixed )

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » August 22, 2003, 12:42 pm

This is nothing more than 2 brats who are fighting incessantly and need mommy and daddy to come in and beat both their asses and send them to bed. In this case, the U.N. should step in and eastablish a DMZ between the two and administer a beating to anyone who dares to make an attack on the other.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 22, 2003, 12:44 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:This is nothing more than 2 brats who are fighting incessantly and need mommy and daddy to come in and beat both their asses and send them to bed. In this case, the U.N. should step in and eastablish a DMZ between the two and administer a beating to anyone who dares to make an attack on the other.

The U.N couldnt administer a beating to a crying child let alone a country.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 22, 2003, 12:44 pm

the UN did define the 2 countries quite a long time ago.

Israel didnt like it, and they have tanks. Israel has not acknowledged the UN borders for decades. They have taken control of Jeruselem which was also not part of the country as set out by the UN, and use it as their capital.

Notice though that all embassies are in Tel Aviv, which is the internationally recognized capital of Israel.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » August 22, 2003, 12:50 pm

Skogen wrote:
Atokal wrote:
Kelshara wrote:There will never be peace there with the current Israeli President. Hard to make peace with a war ciminal and a slaughterer.

Note: I am not calling one side saints and one side hellspawn. I just really dislike Sharon.
Yes and the palestinians are much better with the suicide bombings. Honestly, the situation will never change regardless of the leader. Btw where is the conviction in the world court that Sharon is a War Criminal?
Go and read a history book before you talk about things you know nothing about.

Check this asshole, your comment did what? Showed that you know nothing or you needed to go google and couldnt resist the urge to post.

I asked a question regarding Sharon, you would be wise to ask more and talk less.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » August 22, 2003, 1:12 pm

Atokal wrote:
Skogen wrote:
Atokal wrote:
Kelshara wrote:There will never be peace there with the current Israeli President. Hard to make peace with a war ciminal and a slaughterer.

Note: I am not calling one side saints and one side hellspawn. I just really dislike Sharon.
Yes and the palestinians are much better with the suicide bombings. Honestly, the situation will never change regardless of the leader. Btw where is the conviction in the world court that Sharon is a War Criminal?
Go and read a history book before you talk about things you know nothing about.
Check this asshole, your comment did what? Showed that you know nothing or you needed to go google and couldnt resist the urge to post.

I asked a question regarding Sharon, you would be wise to ask more and talk less.

I am not going to sit here and type out all of the bad shit Sharon did when he was defense minister during the Lebanese civil war.
The question you asked was a rhetorical one. You already know there is no war crime conviction against him. So, with that, my comment was aimed on how simple minded it is to think that just because there was no conviction, it means he is in fact innocent of war crimes.

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » August 22, 2003, 1:39 pm

i vote we just let them all kill eachother .... if there are no people there then there can be no more problems

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » August 22, 2003, 1:47 pm

Drasta is the only one to have it right.

Give them all a decades notice, they work it out or leave, at the end of the 10 years we blockade them, and forget about them.

Both sides are utterly wrong, and the innocents on both sides suffer. Let the innocents leave and the fanatics wipe each other out.

30 seconds after we leave Bosnia they are going to be killing each other, just like they were 30 seconds after the Soviets were gone. There is no way outside agencies can correct this level of fanaticism and evil.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » August 22, 2003, 2:53 pm

Atokal....man...NWS on the avatar. Change that shit to something with a banana.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » August 22, 2003, 2:57 pm

I thnk adding a banana in there would make it more NWS.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » August 22, 2003, 3:03 pm

Both sides are wrong, for sure, but not equally wrong by a long shot. And as for the innocents leaving - to where?

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » August 22, 2003, 3:09 pm

Aaeamdar wrote:Both sides are wrong, for sure, but not equally wrong by a long shot. And as for the innocents leaving - to where?

Why do you think they are not equally wrong?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 22, 2003, 3:11 pm

maybe God should get off his ass and sort it out. obviously he needs to clarify exactly who he gave the land too. Maybe he could produce a deed, etc. i'd subpoena Him if it was up to me.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » August 22, 2003, 3:14 pm

But Voro, are you talking Jehovah or Allah? One side won't accept the other as the legitimate divine being...

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » August 22, 2003, 3:24 pm

Avatar fixed Kilmoll although I liked the other better. Thanks for the title Voro, would have kept it except the new avatar makes it irrelevant.

Cheers.

BTW Skogen I did some reading as you suggested and found some interesting shit on Sharon. I think he should stand trial. However your comment about him being a War Criminal is wrong. I believe the World Court operates much the same as courts in Canada and the USA. You know..... Innocent until proven guilty.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » August 22, 2003, 3:27 pm

Wulfran,
Those are the same being.

Skogen,
The Islraeli government has erred mostly in allowing the settlements. Arguably they should also not be destroying he homes of the families of the Suicide Terrorists (I understand their reasoning - but its not effective). I don't find fault in their targets for assassination, though I think they could use means that are less likely to produce unintended casualties. Hamas, PLO and Islamic Jihad organize attacks on civilians with the intent on killing as many civilians in as public a manner as possible. There is a grand canyon of difference between the two approaches.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 22, 2003, 3:29 pm

Wulfran wrote:But Voro, are you talking Jehovah or Allah? One side won't accept the other as the legitimate divine being...

if he shows up "in person", that might settle that score as well...

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » August 22, 2003, 3:31 pm

"Innocent until Proven Guilty" is an obligation of jurists while sitting in trial, not an obligation of society until a person has gone through a trial (or even after a trial has been had and found "Not Guilty.")

A friend of mine wrote a breif piece on the issue (in a different context) that can be found here: http://writ.corporate.findlaw.com/colb/20020617.html

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 22, 2003, 3:57 pm

Atokal wrote:Avatar fixed Kilmoll although I liked the other better. Thanks for the title Voro, would have kept it except the new avatar makes it irrelevant.

Cheers.

BTW Skogen I did some reading as you suggested and found some interesting shit on Sharon. I think he should stand trial. However your comment about him being a War Criminal is wrong. I believe the World Court operates much the same as courts in Canada and the USA. You know..... Innocent until proven guilty.

Would you hold the same opinion if it was Sadam we were discussing?

---------------

The current situation is Israel's doing. Abas\US actually got these militant fanatic groups to agree to a ceasefire and Israel continued with its assasinations (drawing strong criticism from the US which shocked me).

Israel provokes these attacks because they have no intention on giving up the land.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » August 22, 2003, 3:58 pm

Aaeamdar wrote:"Innocent until Proven Guilty" is an obligation of jurists while sitting in trial, not an obligation of society until a person has gone through a trial (or even after a trial has been had and found "Not Guilty.")

A friend of mine wrote a breif piece on the issue (in a different context) that can be found here: http://writ.corporate.findlaw.com/colb/20020617.html

More lawyer BS and semantics:P

For the record I am antisemantic.

Cheers

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » August 22, 2003, 4:00 pm

Forthe wrote:
Atokal wrote:Avatar fixed Kilmoll although I liked the other better. Thanks for the title Voro, would have kept it except the new avatar makes it irrelevant.

Cheers.

BTW Skogen I did some reading as you suggested and found some interesting shit on Sharon. I think he should stand trial. However your comment about him being a War Criminal is wrong. I believe the World Court operates much the same as courts in Canada and the USA. You know..... Innocent until proven guilty.
Would you hold the same opinion if it was Sadam we were discussing?

Yes I would still like my old avatar better

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 22, 2003, 4:41 pm

27 June: Israel and the Palestinians agree a disengagement of forces in Gaza and a withdrawal from the centre of Bethlehem.

29 June: Israeli troops begin pull back in Gaza and Palestinian militant groups declare a temporary truce.

2 July: Israel withdraws from Bethlehem and Palestinian police take over.

3 July: Israeli troops shoot dead a militant in Gaza.

5 July: Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian prime minister, meets Hamas spiritual leader Sheikh Yassin.

6 July: As a goodwill gesture, Israeli cabinet agrees to release hundreds of Palestinian prisoners.

9 July: US attempts to strengthen Mahmoud Abbas by giving $20m in aid to the Palestinian Authority.

20 July: Mahmoud Abbas meets Ariel Sharon.

5 August: Mahmoud Abbas calls off meeting with Mr Sharon accusing him of dragging his feet.

6 August: Israel releases 336 Palestinian prisoners.

8 August: Two Hamas militants and an Israeli soldier are killed in an Israeli raid on a refugee camp in Nablus. Two Palestinians die in protests that follow.

12 August: Two Palestinian teenagers carry out suicide attacks, one in Israel and one against a settlement in the West Bank. Each attack has one victim other than the attacker.

14 August: Israeli troops kill Mohammed Seder, the Islamic Jihad military leader in Hebron.

18 August: Talks between Israeli and Palestinian negotiators fail to set a timetable for the return to Palestinian control of two West Bank towns, Qalqilya and Jericho.

19 August : A Palestinian suicide attack on bus in Jerusalem kills 20 Israelis, including six children.

21 August: Israel kills Hamas leader Ismail Abu Shanab, a pragmatic political leader in Hamas, and two of his bodyguards. Palestinian militant groups declare the end of their truce.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3173107.stm

So on august 8th after more than a month of relative peace what do you think Sharon was thinking when he ordered a raid on Nablus?

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » August 22, 2003, 4:55 pm

Aaeamdar wrote:Wulfran,
Those are the same being.

Skogen,
The Islraeli government has erred mostly in allowing the settlements. Arguably they should also not be destroying he homes of the families of the Suicide Terrorists (I understand their reasoning - but its not effective). I don't find fault in their targets for assassination, though I think they could use means that are less likely to produce unintended casualties. Hamas, PLO and Islamic Jihad organize attacks on civilians with the intent on killing as many civilians in as public a manner as possible. There is a grand canyon of difference between the two approaches.

It's not the targets the Israelis choose..its the means of assasination. They want to kill ONE guy...so what do they do? Wait until the Mossad tells them he is in a such-and such car, driving somewhere, so the IDF sends up an Apache Helicopter, and fires fucking Hellfire missiles into it....in the middle of fucking traffic! Bystanders get killed in the process.
Also, imagine this scenario. You are a Palastinian man. You are middle road political, mainly interested in taking care of your wife & two kids. Unemployement is a staggering, what? 70% for palastinians? So you are gone all day, looking for work, taking odd jobs, etc. Well, one day, the Israelis, in retaliation for a bomber, go into your neighborhood with Merak tanks, armored bulldozers and soldiers armed to the teeth, with no warning. Some lightly armed palastinian militants fire there AK-47s at one of the Israeli tanks from the roof of the house a couple houses down from yours. The tank responds by firing a HE round at them, but misses, and sends the shell right into your living room. The blast kills your two little girls who were playing on the floor right where the shell hit. The mother, who was in the kitchen, is shell-shocked, then sees whats left of her daugters. In a rage she screams at the soldiers who are now going house to house, kicking in doors, and shootin first, asking questions later. One of the soldiers jumps throught the gaping hole left in front of the house created by the tank shell, and she rushes him. He doesn't hesistate, he fires a burst from his galil assault rifle into her chest. After an exhausting day of looking for work, (hours of it was spent trying to get through israeli checkpoints.), you return home, only to find your family dead, and your home in shambles. You, once a family man, and no political aspirations or interests, have lost everything. Rage overtakes you, and are bloodthirsty for revenege....and now a stout supporter & and a soon to be volunteer for Islamic Jihad or Hamas.
Shit like this happens ALL the time.

EDIT: I forgot the mention that the armored bullzdozers tear down whats left of you fucking house before you get home.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 22, 2003, 5:13 pm

believe the World Court operates much the same as courts in Canada and the USA. You know..... Innocent until proven guilty.

The irony here is, of course, that if I am not mistaken USA refuses to let Americans go through the Court while they want to send others there...

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » August 22, 2003, 5:37 pm

Ok, so we agree that israel selection of targets is appropriate. If Israel has not considered other means of assassisnation, they should. But I fail to see how that is the same level of guilt as organizing attacks designed to maximize civilian casualties.

As to the Tank story, and it supposedly happening "all the time," if that is true, I am sure you can provide some references from disinterested press reporting such incendents, right? I mean, if it is happening "all the time," then someone other than Al'Jazerah must be reporting it, right? Or is there a worldwide media conspiracy that refuses to show these atrosities that are happening "all the time" ?

(Tried going to see if this sort of thing was even reported "all the time" at Al'Jazerah as well, but they don't have an english page up yet.)

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » August 22, 2003, 6:09 pm

Aaeamdar wrote:Ok, so we agree that israel selection of targets is appropriate. If Israel has not considered other means of assassisnation, they should. But I fail to see how that is the same level of guilt as organizing attacks designed to maximize civilian casualties.

As to the Tank story, and it supposedly happening "all the time," if that is true, I am sure you can provide some references from disinterested press reporting such incendents, right? I mean, if it is happening "all the time," then someone other than Al'Jazerah must be reporting it, right? Or is there a worldwide media conspiracy that refuses to show these atrosities that are happening "all the time" ?

(Tried going to see if this sort of thing was even reported "all the time" at Al'Jazerah as well, but they don't have an english page up yet.)

It's not worldwide, just the USA. Give me some time, and I'll give you references. It's out there.

It is also one of the reasons Palastinians are pissed at the USA.....no one is paying attention to the civilian deaths they are suffering.

Britain, France an Germany are covering this much more than US press. Which also could explain why Europe holds a much more critical view of IDF activities than the US does.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 22, 2003, 6:12 pm

i watch about 50+ hours of news a week, and descriptions of violence both to Palestinians as well as Israelis is all over the news.

if you arent seeing balanced coverage, perhaps your source is the problem. or maybe you dont watch enough to get a good sample =)

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 22, 2003, 6:22 pm

Aaeamdar are you even aware of the american girl the Israelis squished with a bulldozer?

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » August 22, 2003, 6:23 pm

The latest example:

http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2003/428/

here is this one too....but I don't know how reputable the source is.

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/D ... 12341.html

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » August 22, 2003, 6:37 pm

Forthe,
You mean the woman who sat infront of the home of a suicide terrorist as it was being crushed? If that's the one - yes. I am not going to be crying buckets of tears over her anytime soon. Human shields should pretty much expect that they are going to be killed or injured when they embark upon their course.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » August 22, 2003, 6:43 pm

Sharon is as bloodthirsty and almost twice the asshole of any palistinian presently in power, when his ass is gone, maybe a peace agreement could be made, until then, expect the same shit to go down

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 22, 2003, 6:44 pm

Which suicidal terrorist's home was it since you seem to know what house they were tearing down? AFAIK she was simply protesting and not acting as a "human shield". Does trying to stop a house from being bulldozed even qualify for that term?

In any case, you are fucked in the head if you think running over a girl with a bulldozer is okay when you could have simply dragged her away.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » August 22, 2003, 6:48 pm

Skogen,
Your first peice there is a protest letter from the Asian Human Rights Commission complaining that the Israeli is targetting Human Rights Workers. It sets up three examples in the last month of people choosing to act as Human Shields! The letter tries to make out a case that the Israeli army is really going out of its way to kill these "Human Rights Protestors" and uses as exmaples people who are littlerally throwning themselves infront of bullets (or Bulldozers, as the case may be). It's absurd. Everyone should really read that letter.

Here are the important nits from it:
The Demand -

To the Israeli government and the Members of Knesset: Immediately stop the policy of targeting and killing international peace activists in order to break international peaceful resistance.

The examples of the "innocent" victims-

Thomas Hundall ... was shot dead by Israeli soldiers in the Gaza Strip ... by standing between them and IDF troops.

Rachel Corrie was killed by a bulldozer in her struggle to prevent the destruction of a Palestinian home in Rafah.

Bryan Avery ... was shot in the face [while] working as a human shield.

If those are the level of exmple of the attrocities being inflicted on "innocent" persons by Israel, I will have to reconsider if my view of the Israeli government isn't a little too harsh.

Forthe,
Assuming this is the same person in Skogen's linked letter - there is your answer as to what she was doing at the time.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 22, 2003, 6:50 pm

that wasn't a fucking terrorist's house. that was the house that she and her fucking group of PEACE ACTIVISTS were living in.

people like you disgust me because you never question anything fox news or whatever rightie idiot news agency feeds you. you don't give a fuck who dies as long as they aren't on your "side" or more closely follow the political ideologies of whoever they are murdering.

someone says an innocent person got run over by a bulldozer and you shrug and say "well she made the choice to get in front of it!" but if it was the other way around and a palestinian ran some neocon retard over, you'd probably fall down to your knees weeping and scream WHEN WILL THIS TERRORIST THREAT EVER END?

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » August 22, 2003, 6:51 pm

That was just the most recent incident the IDF was getting some slack for...this happened last week. That's why i picked it. There are way more harsher examples. Do some searching for yourself as well if you are truely interested! Check it out...

Acies · Post by **Acies** » August 22, 2003, 6:53 pm

After I have studied most of the unclassified data I could get my hands on of the problem, I see only two truly insurmountable problems to peace in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

1: The Israelies.

2: The Palestinians.

Hear me out.

Both sides now have two generations who know nothing but conflict, death, fighting for every scrap of land, safety and peace. The Israelies against every major Moslem power, the Palestinians against the Israelies, and by extension, the US.

Two generations, fathers and sons, who now know nothing but pain, strife and conflict. Their fathers, brothers, sons, mothers, daughters, sisters, employers and friends have all be claimed by the violence. Families killed, lively hoods destroyed.

The Israelies cannot back down. I am in firm support of that stance.

The Palestinian people deserve a homeland, I am in firm support of that.

People have however, stopped looking at those issues. They see only the blood and death of those they love, the squalor of the refugee camps. They see justice in a bomb and bullet. Make the enemy hurt as much as you do. Make your pain manifest. That's not a war. That's... that's insanity. When you hate your enemy, when you stop seeing him as a person, you stop fighting with intelligence. You let your anger rule you.

People here in the California political spectrum, at least so close to Berkeley, have a very negative view of the Israelie side of the conflict. They all want a negotiated settlement that brings about the end of 'Israeli Tyranny' in the 'Palestinian nation'.

News Flash: There is no Palestinian nation. For 20 years, we have dealt with Yassar Arafat and he's done nothing. Not a god damned thing. He's funded the 'martyrs' (Homicide bombers), instituted corrupt policies and turned international funding to terrorism.

Secondarily, how do you negotiate an end to hostilities with multiple factions who all want separate things and have separate agendas? The PLO charter USED (before the Oslo Accords) call for the total eradication of Israel. Hamas still does.

How do you negotiate with that?

If your terms are my DEATH, the dissolution of America, the destruction of my entire society, well fuck you very much, here's an F-16 full of Napalm for you AND the horse you rode in on.

There is an old saying : The difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is only who wins in the end.

That saying is wrong. Horribly wrong. The 9/11 attacks were terrorism, pure and simple. So is blowing up a bus of civilians. If the 9/11 plotters had stolen planes without civilians on them, flown them in to military targets, avoided killing civilians, I could possibly see them as freedom fighters. As it is, they are simply murderers who chose a particular cowardly fashion to do it in.

One of my greatest international amusements, has been Syria's demand for the return of the Golon Heights. I find it utterly hilarious that they (Syria) invaded Isreal in league with several other nations (Egypt, Iraq, Jordan and support from others), got their asses handed to them, LOST territory and then had the temerity to bitch about Israel taking their shit.

Mind you, I'm not entirely pro-Israelie either. The policies of settlement building and ethnic exclusion they employed in the past have set the stage for this conflict and given their opposition legitimacy.

I do not see any easy solution to this problem. No one does.

If there was an easy solution, it would have been done all ready.

If this conflict was happening in America, between, say the Caucasians Americans and the African Americans, with bombings, assassinations, civilian deaths on all sides, the Caucasians would have by now, 30 years of conflict, the death, destruction and sheer brutality would have provoked a very harsh reaction.

Applaud Israel for it's restraint for not killing indiscriminantly.

Condemn Hamas and the other organizations for targeting Civilians.

Everyone, sit down, shut up, and study before you chose a side.

Me? My side? I don't have one. It's a losing war, no matter how you slice it.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » August 22, 2003, 7:09 pm

that wasn't a fucking terrorist's house. that was the house that she and her fucking group of PEACE ACTIVISTS were living in.

Quick and loose with your facts as always, I see. According to witness affidavits, it was the house of a Dr. Samir.

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/Activism/Affidavits.htm

"Corrie was standing in front of a house owned by her friend Samir Masri (some reports have his name as Samir Nasrallah), who is a Palestinian physician. There have been allegations that Masri is a collaborator with Palestinian suicide bombers."

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie