Al Gore on Bush's Iraq Policy

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Al Gore on Bush's Iraq Policy

Post by Fairweather Pure »

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash5g.htm
Some of you may remember that the last time I talked formally on the topics that we're here to talk about today was a little less than a year ago in San Francisco, when I argued that the president's case for urgent and unilateral preemptive war in Iraq was less than convincing and needed to be challenged more effectively by the Congress.

In light of developments since then, you might assume that my purpose today is to revisit the manner in which we were led into war, and to some extent that will be the case, but only as part of a larger theme that I feel very strongly needs to be explored on an urgent basis.

The direction in which our nation is being led now is deeply troubling to me, not only in Iraq, but also here at home, on economic policy, social policy and environmental policy.

Millions of Americans now share a feeling that something pretty basic has gone wrong in our country and that some important American values are being placed at risk. And they want to set it right.

The way we went to war in Iraq illustrates this larger problem. Normally, we Americans lay the facts on the table and talk through the choices before us and make a decision. But that didn't really happen with this war, not the way it should have.

And as a result, too many of our soldiers are paying the highest price for the strategic miscalculations, serious misjudgments and historic mistakes that have put them and our nation in harm's way.

I'm convinced that one of the reasons we did not have a better public debate before the Iraq war started is because so many of the impressions that the majority of the country had back then turned out to have been completely wrong.

Now, leaving aside for the moment the question of how these false impressions got into the public's mind, I think it might be healthy to take a hard look at the ones that we now know were wrong and clear the air so we can better see exactly where we are now and what changes might need to be made.

In any case, what we now know to have been false impressions before the war, include the following.

Number one, Saddam Hussein was partly responsible for the attack against us on September 11th, 2001, so a good way to respond to that attack would be to invade his country and forcibly remove him from power.

Number two, Saddam was working closely with Osama bin Laden and was actively supporting members of the Al Qaida terrorist group by giving them weapons and money and bases and training, so launching a war against Iraq would be a good way to stop Al Qaida from attacking us again.

Number three, Saddam was about to give the terrorists poison gas and deadly germs that he had made into weapons which they could use to kill lots of Americans. Therefore, common sense alone seemed to dictate that we should send our military into Iraq in order to protect our loved ones and ourselves against a grave threat.

Number four, Saddam was on the verge of building nuclear bombs and giving them to the terrorists, and since the only thing then preventing Saddam from acquiring a nuclear arsenal was access to enriched uranium, once our spies found out that he had bought the enrichment technology he needed and was actively trying to buy uranium from Africa, it seemed like we had very little time left.

Therefore, it seemed imperative during last fall's election campaign to set aside less urgent issues like the economy, and instead focus on the congressional resolution approving the war in Iraq.

Number five, our GIs would be welcomed with open arms by cheering Iraqis who would help them quickly establish public safety, free markets and representative democracy, so there wouldn't be that much of a risk that U.S. soldiers would get bogged down in a guerrilla war.

Number six, even though the rest of the world was mostly opposed to the war, they would quickly fall in line after we won, and then contribute lots of money and soldiers to help out, so there wouldn't be that much risk that U.S. taxpayers would get stuck with a huge bill.

Now, of course, everybody knows that every single one of these impressions was just dead wrong.

For example, according to the just-released congressional investigation, Saddam had nothing whatsoever to do with the attacks of September 11th. Therefore, whatever other goals it served--and it did serve some other goals--the decision to invade Iraq made no sense as a way of exacting revenge for 9/11.

To the contrary, the U.S. pulled significant intelligence resources out of Pakistan and Afghanistan in order to get ready for the rushed invasion of Iraq, and that disrupted the search for Osama at a critical time. And the indifference that we showed to the rest of the world's opinion in the process undermined the global cooperation we need to win the war against terrorism.

In the same way, the evidence now shows clearly that Saddam did not want to work with Osama bin Laden at all, much less give him weapons of mass destruction, so our invasion of Iraq had no effect on Al Qaida other than to boost their recruiting efforts.

And on the nuclear issue, of course, it turned out that those documents were actually forged by somebody, though we don't know who.

And as for the cheering Iraqi crowds that we anticipated, unfortunately--very unfortunately--that did not pan out either, so now our troops are in an ugly and dangerous situation.

Moreover, the rest of the world certainly is not jumping in to help out very much, the way we expected, so U.S. taxpayers are now having to spend $1 billion every week.

In other words, when you put it all together it was just one mistaken impression after another, lots of them.

And it's not just in foreign policy, because the same thing has been happening in economic policy, where we've also now got another huge and threatening mess on our hands.

I'm convinced one reason we've had so many nasty surprises in our economy is that the country somehow got lots of false impressions about what we could expect from the big tax cuts that were enacted, including: one, the tax cuts would unleash a lot of new investment that would create lots of new jobs; two, we wouldn't have to worry about a return to big budget deficits, because all the new growth in the economy caused by the tax cuts would lead to a lot of new revenue; three, most of the benefits would go to average middle-income families not to the wealthy, as some partisans claimed.

Unfortunately, here, too, every single one of these impressions turned out to be wrong. Instead of creating jobs, for example, we are losing millions of jobs: three years in a row of net losses. That hasn't happened since the Great Depression.

As I've noted before, I was the first one laid off.

And you never forget something like that.

And it turns out that most of the benefits of the tax cuts actually are going to the highest-income Americans, who, unfortunately, are the least likely group to spend money in ways that create jobs during times when the economy is weak and unemployment is rising.

And, of course, the budget deficits are already the biggest ever, with the worst still due to hit us. As a percentage of our economy, we have had bigger deficits, but these are by far the most dangerous we've ever had for two reasons. First, they're not temporary; they're structural and long-term. Second, they're going to get even bigger just at the time when the big baby boomer retirement surge starts. Moreover, the global capital markets have begun to recognize the unprecedented size of this emerging fiscal catastrophe.

In truth, the current executive branch of the U.S. government is radically different from any since the McKinley administration 100 years ago.

The 2001 winner of the Nobel Prize for Economics, George Akerlof, went even further last week in Germany when he told Der Spiegel, and I quote, ``This is the worst government the U.S. has ever had in its more than 200 years of history.''

I didn't say that. That's the winner of the Nobel Prize for Economics.



He said, ``This is not normal policy.'' In describing the impact of the Bush policies on America's future, Akerlof added, quote, ``What we have here is a form of looting,'' end quote. Now again, that's the Nobel Prize winner in economics.

Ominously, the capital markets have just pushed U.S. long-term mortgage rates higher soon after the Federal Reserve Board once again reduced discount rates. Monetary policy loses some of its potency when fiscal policy just comes unglued, and after three years of rate cuts in a row, Alan Greenspan and his colleagues simply don't have much room left for further reductions.

This situation is particularly dangerous for our economy right now for several reasons. First, because home buying, fueled by low rates, along with car buying, also fueled by low rates, have been just about the only reliable engines that have been pulling the economy forward.

Secondly, so many Americans now have variable rate mortgages, so the increases hit people quickly and hard.

And third, it comes at a time when average personal debt is at an all-time record high. A lot of Americans are living on the economic edge.

It seems obvious to me that big and important issues, like the Bush economic policy and the first preemptive war in U.S. history, should have been debate more thoroughly in the Congress and covered more extensively in the news media and better presented to the American people before our nation made such fateful choices. But that didn't happen. And now in both cases, reality is turning out to be very different from the impressions that were given when the votes and the die were cast.

Since this curious mismatch between myth and reality has suddenly become commonplace and is causing such extreme difficulty for the nation's ability to make good sensible choices about our future, maybe it's time to focus on how in the world we could have gotten so many false impressions in such a short period of time.

At first, I thought maybe the president's advisers were a big part of the problem.

Last fall, in a speech on economic policy at the Brookings Institution, I called on the president to just get rid of his whole economic team and pick a new group. And a few weeks later, damned if he didn't do just that.

And at least one of the new advisers had written eloquently about the very problems in the Bush economic policy that I was calling upon the president to fix.

But now, a year later, we still have the same bad economic policies and the problems have, if anything, gotten worse. So obviously I was wrong: Changing all of the president's advisers didn't work as a way of changing the policy.

I remembered all that last month when everybody was looking for who ought to be held responsible for the false statements in the president's State of the Union Address. And I've just about concluded that the real problem may be the president himself and that next year we ought to fire him and get a new one.

But whether you agree with that conclusion or not--and I see some of you here, do--whether you're a Democrat or a Republican or an independent, a Libertarian, a Green or a Mugwump, you have got a stake in making sure that representative democracy works the way it is supposed to.

I wanted to speak to this Internet-based organization of people who become active in representative democracy because I think this methodology represents one way of trying to fix things.

Well said. I'd like to hear the opinions of those who oppose anything that Al stated. He basically summed up the last 6 months worth of our discussions on this board and they all support my views, opinions, and predictions so well that it's almost scary.
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Post by masteen »

Much like everything Al Gore-related, this article was too boring to read.

Although, I'm sure it's a 100% accurate and unbiased essay from the man who invented teh Intarnet.
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Post by Fallanthas »

I think Al should stick to environmental issues and leave economics to someone who at least researches their claims.
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Post by Skogen »

I was against us going to war, and didn't vote for Bush ( I honestly don't know who were would have been more screwed with..Bush or Gore, both choices sucked ass)

What Al is spewing here is straight-up propaganda.
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Post by miir »

Skogen wrote: What Al is spewing here is straight-up propaganda.
No different than the propaganda Bush has been spewing for the past year.

The main difference is Bush propaganda is driving the american economy into the ground and is responsible for the deaths of thousands of people.
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Post by Skogen »

miir wrote:
Skogen wrote: What Al is spewing here is straight-up propaganda.
No different than the propaganda Bush has been spewing for the past year.

The main difference is Bush propaganda is driving the american economy into the ground and is responsible for the deaths of thousands of people.
Agreed.

Our choice of leadership these days is very disconcerning.
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Post by Jice Virago »

We are fucked economically if we don't get oil baron boy out of office next election. His own party has proven so partisan after how bitter they were over Clinton evaded them that even the more moderate GOP won't budge an inch from the party line. World opinion of the US is at an all time low and now foriegn banking institutions are pulling out of the US economy. We are looking at an economic descent worse than the great depression and I wonder if it isn't intentional, because after all if the bulk of US citizens are jobless and homeless they would have even less power. Maybe thats a radical thought, but I cannot recall a single administration in the history of the US that was so blatant in its disregard for the common welfare while pushing so many elitist and imperialist agendas.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
--RICHARD M. NIXON, "REAL PEACE" (1983)

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, represents, in the final analysis, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."

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Post by Marbus »

The most meaningful thing to me was what the German Nobel Prize winner said... IMHO we should listedn to Deutschland most of the time, they kick ass :)

Seriously though, actually I do usually agree with Germany but that is another issue, if a Nobel prize winner in Economics thinks we are going about things the wrong way we should at least take note and investiage this opinion.

You are right though, it was boring. I also agree I really didn't want either. I voted for Bush because I thought he had a better cabinet... in retrospect that may have been a mistake. Personally I would have voted for Bill again before either one of them.

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Post by Ramius »

miir wrote:
Skogen wrote: What Al is spewing here is straight-up propaganda.
No different than the propaganda Bush has been spewing for the past year.

The main difference is Bush propaganda is driving the american economy into the ground and is responsible for the deaths of thousands of people.
I'd be willing to bet that if you all were the repressed Iraqi people you would be singing a different tune. Yes, we have lost hundreds of coalition troups over in Iraq but it was a necessary war. Sadam has already committed genocide and persacuted hundreds of thousands of people. If we didn't remove him from power we would be staring at the seccond comming of Adolf Hittler square in the face. The way Bush went about getting approval for war was wrong. The best way for him to have gotten approval would have been if he said that there is a humanitarian crisis going on over there. These people lived in poverty while he, his family, and anyone else who sucked his cock lived in luxury. And please don't get me started on the UN. They are the most worthless piece of shit organization in the world. The basics are this: Yes, this was a necessary war and No, the way Bush went about getting us into it was not right, PERIOD.
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Post by Metanis »

I could go on for hours.

I'll make two quick points.

1) Toward the end of his speech Al Gore stated "I was wrong...". See! Even Al knows he's an air-head. Hahahaha

2) Al Gore had his chance, he was one step from the Oval office for 8 years. I guess he was so busy inventing the internet he didn't have time to work on many of the pressing issues of our time.

I lied... 3 quick points...

3) Get the dick outta your ass Al. If you truly have convictions then run for the office in 2004. I'd love to see GW trash you convincingly and put to rest the claims he stole the presidency.
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Post by miir »

Sadam has already committed genocide and persacuted hundreds of thousands of people. If we didn't remove him from power we would be staring at the seccond comming of Adolf Hittler square in the face.
Nobody is defending the actions of Saddam Hussein.
He did use (US supplied) chemical weapons on the Kurds over a decade ago and ran a brutal regieme for several decades.

The Hitler comparison is completely off base.
Iraq was in no position to invade their neighbours. Their military was not capable of mounting an offensive campaign. Iraq had taken no aggresive against neighbouring countries since the first gulf war.
Saddam had no realistic aspirations of world domination or mass genocide.

The best way for him to have gotten approval would have been if he said that there is a humanitarian crisis going on over there. These people lived in poverty while he, his family, and anyone else who sucked his cock lived in luxury.
Since when is that a justification for invasion and occupation.
The USA has not the authority to invade and occupy a country for the purpose of deposing an oppressive regieme.
If that were the case, they would be moraly obligated to invade most of the middle east.

And please don't get me started on the UN. They are the most worthless piece of shit organization in the world.
They held Iraq in check for over a decade.
Judging from how easily to coalition forces invaded and occupied Iraq, it's pretty obvious that Saddam's military might was laughable.
Economic sanctions and 'Oil for Food' may not have been the best course of action but they did serve the intended purpose.


Yes, this was a necessary war
A war?
Doesn't a war involve 2 sides?
The military opposition to the invasion forces was marginal.
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Post by Jice Virago »

Metanis,

We all know this is probably some pre song and dance to him warming up for a run at office again, or at the very least some well tuned dogma to rally the party for whoever is going to run. The difference is Gore made his case with direct references from experts that can be verified and debated. Oil Baron Boy used forged sources and quashed any form of public debate on his course of action. Let us not forget that the election between these men ended suspect at best, with Gore leading in the popular vote and Bush winning the electoral vote with the deciding state just happening to be one run by his brother, and in a mire of controversy.

That said, when Bill won re-election four years ago, the republicans response was a unilateral "I'm gonna get you sucka" and they lobbed tax funded witch hunts to try and bring him down. When it was apparent that fighting the Floriday mess any further would lead to wide scale unrest and governmental instability, Gore not only stepped down he publically encouraged everyone to support Bush as president in the interests of a unified nation. Since then the only things he has called for have been more congressional and public input into the decisions being made about our economic and foreign policy future. The speech above is the first time he has come out and said what we all fundementally know, that this fucking puppet of the good old boy block needs to be ousted.

To be honest, I wish the GOP would put someone up descent enough to beat him in the primaries (I don't think the Democrats are going to field a worthwhile canadate), but we all saw what happens when someone runs against the hand picked good old boy in the GOP; they skew the game and railroad the poor bastard out of politics. Mark my words if the GOP doesn't start holding its own accountable, you might just see President Clinton in 2004, and I don't mean Bill.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
--RICHARD M. NIXON, "REAL PEACE" (1983)

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, represents, in the final analysis, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."

Dwight Eisenhower
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Post by Forthe »

I hope that the fan boys like cart and met are filthy rich. If not they are even dumber than I thought.

Or perhaps they just like taking it up the ass.
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Post by Ramius »

miir wrote:The Hitler comparison is completely off base.
Iraq was in no position to invade their neighbours. Their military was not capable of mounting an offensive campaign. Iraq had taken no aggresive against neighbouring countries since the first gulf war.
Saddam had no realistic aspirations of world domination or mass genocide.
Really off base? Iraq not only invaded Iran in 1980 but also invaded Kuwait ten years later. The reason he did not succede was simply because the world did not want another world war and instead of saying ok we will let you take just this one country but you need to stop there, we said hell no get your fucking ass out of there or we are comming in guns blazing. And when he did get kicked out and his people revolted against him he either gassed them or had them shot. The mass graves prove this point.
gen·o·cide ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jn-sd)
n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.
Hmm, I really don't think you can classify any type of genocide as mass genocide. It's either genocide or it's not. Fact is he did commit it.
Since when is that a justification for invasion and occupation.
The USA has not the authority to invade and occupy a country for the purpose of deposing an oppressive regieme.
If that were the case, they would be moraly obligated to invade most of the middle east.
When that regieme is committing crimes against humanity I think we as human beings have a duty to remove that regieme from power with any means necessary. The US has led many peace keeping missions for the same reason without all this big fuss. Kosovo, Croatia, Bosnia, and Somalia are just the few that I can think of off the top of my head. The reason this was such a big deal is because of the reason that the US wanted to go to war. Not over human rights but over weapons that might not even be there. As for holding Iraq in check for over a decade I find that laughable. Up until recently there has not been a UN resolution that Sadam complied with. Even when he did finally comply with the most recent ones he didn't do so fully. The only thing sanctions did was hurt the Iraqi people not Sadam. Prime example is the ammount of money his sons had in there possession when they were killed. This situation is an ethical delema. The best question to ask yourself is 'Why is it that one american life is worth more than one Iraqi life?' Why is it that we feel that we are better than the rest of the world because of our freedoms? No matter how you put it there are always going to be those who opose war. There is no way arround that. But I would rather see 255 Americans die to give millions of Iraqi's the opportunity to live as we do then watch as some lunatic sits in his posch palace while his people starve to death. Our country was founded on dying for our rights and our freedom. Who are we to say 'Well we know you can't overthrow this guys. We could but we're just going to sit here and watch you die while he gets fat off of everything you do."
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Post by Voronwë »

they fought Iran with US military assistance.

Don't think Hitler had the backing of the UK when they rolled into Poland...

Regardless of whether you think it is our sacred duty to rescue the Iraqis (i'm sure you dont have feelings nearly as strong for Liberians who live a much more hellish life), that is not how this adminstration justified this war to Congress and to the public (until after the fact when no evidence for their initial assertions was available).
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Post by Brotha »

miir wrote:The main difference is Bush propaganda is driving the american economy into the ground and is responsible for the deaths of thousands of people.
So if a democrat had been in office the economy would have suddenly rebounded on it's own? The economy was on its way to where it is now before Bush took office. A strong case could be made that without Bush's tax cuts it would be worse off now than it is. Seriously, tell me what Dems would have done differently that would have made the economy suddenly turn around with surpluses for everyone! I won't hold my breath though, constructive criticism isn't one of your strong points.

And give me a break on the deaths of thousands of people. Any way you look at it our intervention in Iraq is going to save lives. You can continue to blindly mention the "thousands of deaths", but it just makes you look like the stereotypical bitter moron looking for excuses to take pot shots.
Jice wrote:We are fucked economically if we don't get oil baron boy out of office next election.
I'm going to profess ignorance on the oil baron part. Could you point out times where his oil connections have influenced policy? Where he's shown more favor to them than Clinton has? Iraq doesn't count.
Jice wrote:World opinion of the US is at an all time low
I see things like this all the time. "Bush has squandered the goodwill the world had for us after 9/11." What about the world squandering the good will we had for them? The US was always willing to help, to lead the charge, but after the worst attack on our mainland in generations, the world quibbles with us over removing a two bit mass murdering dictator who we feel could be a threat to us. You know what I say to that? FUCK YOU.
miir wrote:Iraq had taken no aggresive against neighbouring countries since the first gulf war.
And N. Korea hasn't invaded a neighboring country in 50 years. I guess they aren't a threat...right?
miir wrote:Saddam had no realistic aspirations of world domination or mass genocide.
As I've said all along, WMDs would have allowed Saddam to wreak havok without the conventional army that Hitler had back in the WW2 time period. I'm not disagreeing about the world dominance part (of course I could argue semantics and say Hitler didn't want to dominate the entire world, but I'm not a fag like you), but the thought that an aggressive, tyranical, terrorist supporting dictator with the largest army in the Arab world armed with nukes isn't a direct threat to world peace is a joke. And yes, he would have eventually gotten his hand on nukes.

Hundreds of thousands of deaths isn't mass genocide? I'll leave the dictionary definition posting to you, but I think it qualifies.

Let's play a game. I'm going to post two quotes. You have to guess who said them based on this:
miir wrote:A war?
Doesn't a war involve 2 sides?
The military opposition to the invasion forces was marginal.
They aren't even in Baghdad yet.... the coalition forces can't even hold Um Qasr....
So we can accurately say that the US has over 50 casualties.
Pretty scary to think that the 'dirty' fighting hasn't even really yet begun.
It couldn't have been miir...he knew all along it was going to be a cake walk. No way!

edit: what's up with that filter?
Freedom of speech makes it much easier to spot the idiots.
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Post by Ramius »

Voronwë wrote:they fought Iran with US military assistance.

Don't think Hitler had the backing of the UK when they rolled into Poland...

Regardless of whether you think it is our sacred duty to rescue the Iraqis (i'm sure you dont have feelings nearly as strong for Liberians who live a much more hellish life), that is not how this adminstration justified this war to Congress and to the public (until after the fact when no evidence for their initial assertions was available).
Actually both Iran and Iraq had US backing in some form or another. Iraq had Russian equipment and US intel while Iran had both comming from the US allegedly to free the 52 hostages they held. And yes I am happy to see that there is finnaly an end in sight to the Libera crisis. Death is arround us every day but sometimes I get tired of turning on the TV day after day hearing about this many people died here today and that many died there yesterday. The sad part about everything that has gone on in the middle east stems from something we have done in the past thinking we were making it a better place. Durring the cold war we helped Afganistan defeat the Russians when they invaded and they ended up using the weapons we supplied them with to attack us in many different ways. Same goes with Iraq and god knows how many other countries in the future.
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Post by miir »

Iraq not only invaded Iran in 1980
Haha, you fucking moron.
Iraq not only had the approval of the United States, the US gave Saddam the financial backing and supplied the weapons/traning for his troops.

but also invaded Kuwait ten years later
For which he got the biggest ass-kicking seen since biblical times.

his people revolted against him he either gassed them or had them shot. The mass graves prove this point.
The Kurdish rebels in the north had been trying to oust the Baath party for over a decade. Would you expect Saddam to stand by and watch his men engage in bloody confrontations for years and years?

I'm not defending Saddam's actions but he was in a position where his enemies (the Kurds) were engaging in violent uprisings. I can understand why he did what he did in using chemical weapons against the Kurds.

His intent was not to wipe out the Kurds.
His intent was to end the uprising in a heinous display of force.....

When the US dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were they commiting genocide?

The US has led many peace keeping missions for the same reason without all this big fuss. Kosovo, Croatia, Bosnia, and Somalia are just the few that I can think of off the top of my head.
Those were UN led missions, you fucking idiot.



The rest of your points are equally moronic...
Try to make some valid points in your next post... all you're doing is making yourself look like an idiot here.
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Post by miir »

Oh god, brotha posted.


Glad to see the moron brigade is still out in force.
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Post by Skogen »

Brotha wrote:A strong case could be made that without Bush's tax cuts it (the economy) would be worse off now than it is.
Are you fucking kidding me? PLEASE explain this one.
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Post by Toshira »

Ramius wrote:When that regieme is committing crimes against humanity I think we as human beings have a duty to remove that regieme from power with any means necessary. The US has led many peace keeping missions for the same reason without all this big fuss. Kosovo, Croatia, Bosnia, and Somalia are just the few that I can think of off the top of my head. The reason this was such a big deal is because of the reason that the US wanted to go to war. Not over human rights but over weapons that might not even be there. As for holding Iraq in check for over a decade I find that laughable. Up until recently there has not been a UN resolution that Sadam complied with. Even when he did finally comply with the most recent ones he didn't do so fully. The only thing sanctions did was hurt the Iraqi people not Sadam. Prime example is the ammount of money his sons had in there possession when they were killed. This situation is an ethical delema. The best question to ask yourself is 'Why is it that one american life is worth more than one Iraqi life?' Why is it that we feel that we are better than the rest of the world because of our freedoms? No matter how you put it there are always going to be those who opose war. There is no way arround that. But I would rather see 255 Americans die to give millions of Iraqi's the opportunity to live as we do then watch as some lunatic sits in his posch palace while his people starve to death. Our country was founded on dying for our rights and our freedom. Who are we to say 'Well we know you can't overthrow this guys. We could but we're just going to sit here and watch you die while he gets fat off of everything you do."


So tell me, why haven't we taken out China's regime yet?
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Post by Acies »

Toshira wrote:So tell me, why haven't we taken out China's regime yet?
Because we only fight the fights we can win and profit from, not the ones that need fighting. At least, by appearances.
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Post by Kelgar »

Brotha wrote:
A strong case could be made that without Bush's tax cuts it (the economy) would be worse off now than it is.
Are you fucking kidding me? PLEASE explain this one.
He cant. At least not without mindlessly regurgitating Reaganomics (voodoo economics) as though it were gospel. Al more or less summed it up with his statement regarding Bush tax cuts. To stimulate the economy, the people with money need to spend it. In a depressed economy, demand is down and the wealthy will not expand production/infrastructure (creating jobs in the process), thus giving them a tax cut does jack and shit except get tossed in an off shore tax shelter to generate interest.

The economy is driven by demand and the middle class are the ones who will do most of the spending given that they have the money. When you consider that 10% of the population has 90% of the country’s wealth, a flat tax cut basically puts little more than 10% of that money circulating back into the economy. So yay, 90% of that “tax cut” basically does jack shit in terms of helping the economy and to top things off, everyone gets to foot the bill on the interest (aka national deficit). Then you consider the fact that these tax cuts then are funded via cutting social programs which mainly benefit the middle class. Thus Bush is your modern day version of the Sheriff of Nottingham.

If the tax cut were strictly limited to the middle class, then it could be argued that the cut would help, but when your Joe Blow middle class worker gets a measly 400-500 check for his cut, that hardly does a damn thing except pay the grocery bills for one month.
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Post by Brotha »

miir wrote:Haha, you fucking moron.
Iraq not only had the approval of the United States, the US gave Saddam the financial backing and supplied the weapons/traning for his troops.
What relevance does this have? Please tell me. Are you saying that since we supported him at one time we should never attack him? That he could never be a threat to us?
miir wrote:Those were UN led missions, you fucking idiot.
The UN had absolutely jack and shit to do with the intervention in Kosovo, the US saved the UN's ass in Bosnia/Croatia, and America led the UN sanctioned mission in Somalia you ignorant dumbshit.

I must say, someone so blatantly speaking out of their ass while at the same time calling someone a fucking idiot for being right would usually be grounds for a good laughing out loud, but coming from you it's like hearing the "really baby, do I make you horny" line for the millionth time- it's just not funny anymore.
Skogen wrote:Are you fucking kidding me? PLEASE explain this one.
http://www.migop.org/lte/backgrounders/2002-02/CEA.pdf

Bush's tax cuts in 2001 helped slow down the recession. Whether the ones enacted recently will do any good is yet to be seen, although I don't think they'll help much.
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Post by vn_Tanc »

I see things like this all the time. "Bush has squandered the goodwill the world had for us after 9/11." What about the world squandering the good will we had for them? The US was always willing to help, to lead the charge, but after the worst attack on our mainland in generations, the world quibbles with us over removing a two bit mass murdering dictator who we feel could be a threat to us. You know what I say to that? FUCK YOU
You fucking brainwashed polesmoker how the fuck can you look yourself in the mirror every morning without collapsing from self-loathing?

After the worst attack on your mainland, 2 things happened:
1) NATO enacted it's self-defence contingency for the first time EVER. NATO was then given the brush-off by Bush. Your allies held out a hand and you slapped it away. Fuck you.
2) The UN recognised the source of the threat and IMMEDIATELY issued an ultimatum to Afghanistan (a country where the 'proof' of the terrorist problem was tangible) that led to invasion and the removal of the odious Taleban.

The UN then "quibbles" about such trifles as international law when the US decides to attack Iraq on a whim. The UN served the US just fine and you didnt seem to have much problem not getting your own way when it was the USSR vetoing US ideas, because what went around came around. But now when the bulk of the world's opinion is against a hasty war your republican propogandists start telling you the UN is useless and you should ignore it? Just because there isn't a big scarey opposing superpower to do it?

Here it is in simple terms so you can grasp it: You wanted to attack Iraq because you felt like it. All the bullshit you CONTINUE to spew about threats of WMD, terrorism, genocide have been SHOWN TO BE FALSE. Yet you keep bringing them up like the good brainwashed sap you are. Now get this: The rest of the world suspected you didn't have a good enough reason for attacking Iraq. "Because we feel like it" is not a good reason when it ignores the rest of the world's laws. It had nothing to do with everyone loving Saddam and everything to do with curbing the US's gung-ho, try-and-stop-us, might-makes-right bullshit which threatens to throw world efforts for peace and stability back into the 1850s.
So fuck you and retards that educated you.
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Post by Kelgar »

Brotha wrote:http://www.migop.org/lte/backgrounders/2002-02/CEA.pdf

Bush's tax cuts in 2001 helped slow down the recession. Whether the ones enacted recently will do any good is yet to be seen, although I don't think they'll help much.
Nice. You only grabbed this "information" from the Michigan Republicans website to "support" your claim. Perhaps if you could find some real information from a less biased viewpoint, more people would take your arguments more seriously.

I'd quote more of the bullshit fluff here for everyone to ridicule, but I cant because PDF files don't allow a drag/highlight/ctrl-c/ctrl-v. So I'm stuck typing a lot of this bullshit out. I about died laughing after reading the first sentence:
With the enactment in 2001 of the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act (Tax Relief Act), the President has laid a strong foundation for long run growth.
Of course, if you asked your average Joe Blow who was making 30-35k a year how much money each cut put back into their pocket, they'd just give you a withering look and then proceed to laugh.
Moreover, by the end of 2002, the President's tax relief will have helped the private sector to create 800,000 more jobs than there otherwise would have been.
You do realize that this article is pretty old and that hindsight is 20/20 don't you? Tell me where these myterious, so called, jobs have materialized. Better yet, don't bother posting anything. Every time you do so lowers the collective IQ of everyone unfortunate enough to have read your posts.
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Post by masteen »

Fucking please, Kelgar. You're not exactly a font of new and exciting economic infoz, either. Everything you spouted in your last 2 posts is pretty much verbatim Democrat demand-side theory.

While I am a GOP-boy, I'm not here to argue Normative theories. The real reason behind both the massive expansion and the recent contraction of the US economy has its roots in the tech market.

In the 90's, the tech markets just exploded. Companies began to realize the benefits of nationwide networks, and bought massive amounts of new hardware to support them. Companies like Cisco (routers), Lucent (PBX and voice), and HP (corp. PCs) saw their sales skyrocket as the demand graph basically turned into a J-curve.

Theses companies took those profits and did what all companies do when profits are fat, and bloated their middle management and tech ranks. These companies also engaged in debt-financing on a scale never seen before. These companies bought the hype about the "New Economy" and apparently thought that this kind of growth could be sustained indefinitely.

They thought wrong. Eventually, their customers had as much IT gear as they could use for the time being, and quit buying at the accelerated rate. The demand curve flattened out into the straight ascending line we all know from high school Econ. 101.

So now all these companies have massive debts coming due, massive staffs to pay, and only a normal revenue stream to fund them all. Bankruptcy and lay-offs follow, and the economy takes a down swing.

At the same time, the Internet revolution allowed more and more people an easy and cheap way to trade on the stock markets. The companies that were performing best were the IT companies, and millions of Americans bought them under the same illusion of sustainable exponential earnings growth the companies themselves were functioning under. So, on top of being laid off, Joe Techworker's Lucent stock isn't even worth the paper it's printed on.

So it was a pretty rough ride for a lot of people, but smart investors (like my Grandma) still made money. The "New Economy" now looks just like the old economy, which isn't a bad thing.

Because guess what? There is fundamentally NOTHING WRONG WITH THE ECONOMY. The Dow, NASDAQ, ect. are higher now than they were a decade ago when the IT boom began.
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Post by Skogen »

Brotha wrote:
Skogen wrote:Are you fucking kidding me? PLEASE explain this one.
http://www.migop.org/lte/backgrounders/2002-02/CEA.pdf

Bush's tax cuts in 2001 helped slow down the recession. Whether the ones enacted recently will do any good is yet to be seen, although I don't think they'll help much.
Sorry, Brotha. That paper is a big load of contrived horseshit.
Last edited by Skogen on August 8, 2003, 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Chidoro »

Brotha wrote: http://www.migop.org/lte/backgrounders/2002-02/CEA.pdf

Bush's tax cuts in 2001 helped slow down the recession. Whether the ones enacted recently will do any good is yet to be seen, although I don't think they'll help much.
Yeah, that's nice, link a report written by his own economic advisors. Real swift there sportex.

Go back and read Gore's little explanation (I know it's boring as shit, I can't help him from being a piece of wood) about lowering interest rates while raising rates for home and car owners. We are sitting on a bubble (and it ain't even much of one, sadly) that's about to pop. The lone economic boosters are about to collapse (which sucks since the wife and I intend to purchase a home w/in 12 months and sell our condo).

Keep thinking that the wealthy will take their extra cuts and invest in a rickety market. There are millions of fucking fools out there just like you, so you're not alone.
I think Al should stick to environmental issues and leave economics to someone who at least researches their claims.
I think you should assume that what was said in this article was more profound and on the mark than anything that will ever escape your lips w/ regards to economics. you should be thankful you got to read a thought way outside your miserable understandings of the way our economy works.
Bush's tax cuts in 2001 helped slow down the recession.
Yeah, he's managed to extend our recession to the longest one since the GD and establish policy so that it will continue (no it's not over yet regardless of what the GOP tries to tell you) for another three years. I don't blame him for the initial downturn as economies do run in cycles, but the recovery, or lack thereof, has been utterly disasterous.

Just wait until the baby boomers begin to retire. We were "lucky" that the market fell through right about when a lot of them were headed for early sub-55 retirement. If we're lucky, we will be able to buy ourselves another 5 years or so before they all begin to pull out now. And when they begin to pull out in favor of safe options, the market is going to shittank again
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Post by Chidoro »

masteen wrote: While I am a GOP-boy, I'm not here to argue Normative theories. The real reason behind both the massive expansion and the recent contraction of the US economy has its roots in the tech market.
Actually, the bigger problem lies in the incredibly stupid trade deficit that was fed and raised by the GOP
Because guess what? There is fundamentally NOTHING WRONG WITH THE ECONOMY. The Dow, NASDAQ, ect. are higher now than they were a decade ago when the IT boom began.
I don't call an increased jobless rate year over year for three years straight "nothing wrong". Unless you think there was nothing wrong w/ the great depression, which was the last time this happened, it's all not popping up roses to be sure. Ohh, and it's going to get worse before it gets better using current implementation.
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Post by masteen »

Chidoro wrote:
masteen wrote: While I am a GOP-boy, I'm not here to argue Normative theories. The real reason behind both the massive expansion and the recent contraction of the US economy has its roots in the tech market.
Actually, the bigger problem lies in the incredibly stupid trade deficit that was fed and raised by the GOP
Because guess what? There is fundamentally NOTHING WRONG WITH THE ECONOMY. The Dow, NASDAQ, ect. are higher now than they were a decade ago when the IT boom began.
I don't call an increased jobless rate year over year for three years straight "nothing wrong". Unless you think there was nothing wrong w/ the great depression, which was the last time this happened, it's all not popping up roses to be sure. Ohh, and it's going to get worse before it gets better using current implementation.
Again, fucking please. A lot of those out of work were new tech workers who wouldn't have had jobs in the first place without the bubble. My heart bleeds for them. I'm sorry that their year at ITT was wasted and that there aren't more overpaid tech jobs for them to coast into.

RE: the trade deficit. Read this, and if you understand it (unlikely), please post again.
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Post by Chidoro »

Way to completely ignore the REAL issue(not too surprising for a wool over the eyes GOPer) and assume it's ALL underqualified techs that are getting shitcanned.

So solly, not work that way

Edit: copy and paste that in, company has it blocked.

Ohh, and I understand more about business and money than you EVER will. Probably should try to learn from it. Kinda like how I find you are about teh pr0n
Last edited by Chidoro on August 8, 2003, 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Fallanthas »

Get real, Chidoro. A 6% unemployment rate is shit and you know it.


You know what is going to fuck over the economy? Paying out social security to all those baby boomers when the goddamned politicians refuse to stop using Social Security fund balances to show a budget surplus.
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Post by Chidoro »

Unemployment rates do NOT show who is out of work.

It shows about this amount.

Look at jobless rates and not people on the unemployment payrolls. Let me guess, there was a dropoff in unemployment beginning march and lasted through june while the more important jobless rate rose. Hmm, couldn't be because of the extention given to everyone.
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Post by Chmee »

Not that impressed with Gore's speech. The most annoying part to me was ...
And, of course, the budget deficits are already the biggest ever, with the worst still due to hit us. As a percentage of our economy, we have had bigger deficits, but these are by far the most dangerous we've ever had for two reasons. First, they're not temporary; they're structural and long-term. Second, they're going to get even bigger just at the time when the big baby boomer retirement surge starts. Moreover, the global capital markets have begun to recognize the unprecedented size of this emerging fiscal catastrophe.
The budget deficits are indeed a problem. I am for tax cuts, I think the tax burden is way too high in the U.S. but cuts should be paired with reductions in spending. Bush's record on the spending side has been pretty horrible, spending has increased rapidly duing his administration. However I am dubious that if those spending increases were signed by Gore instead of Bush if he would be that unhappy about them. That is speculation though, the more important part of this is where he talks about the long term structural problems with the defict. He is correct in saying this, the long term outlooks for Social Security and Medicare are quite grim. Bush certainly didn't help matters when he tacked on a big new entitlement in the form of the prescription drug benefit to Medicare. However, the basic problems with those programs are inherent in their design and has been evident since long before Bush came into office. We are living longer which means the number of people eligable for social security and medicare compared to the number of people paying the taxes to support the program is increasing. In particular the baby boomers form a big bulge in our age demographic that will start retiring in the not so distant future. The problem with Gore's statements is that this has been known for some time. It was known during the 8 years he was the number 2 man in the administration before Bush. Trying to pin all the blame for the inherent long term financial stability of the programs on Bush is ludicrous.
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Post by Fallanthas »

Unemployment rates do NOT show who is out of work.

Duh

Let me guess, there was a dropoff in unemployment beginning march and lasted through june while the more important jobless rate rose. Hmm, couldn't be because of the extention given to everyone.
There wasn't much of a dropoff, nor has there been any significant increase in, oh, eighteen months or so.

Maybe you ought to check the ates before you go spouting off. You might also note that one of the major causes for a slowly creeping unemployment number is cited as rising productivity.


But hey, the economy is falling apart, right?
Last edited by Fallanthas on August 8, 2003, 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by vn_Tanc »

I am for tax cuts, I think the tax burden is way too high in the U.S. but cuts should be paired with reductions in spending
Your government seems hellbent on making the biggest military machine ever in existence so you can all march with confidence into the New American Century so I wouldn't hold out much hope for this happening ;)
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Post by Chidoro »

Fallanthas wrote:
Duh
Well, you used it as your crutch to the arguement that the economy is a-ok. Duh yourself
There wasn't much of a dropoff, nor has there been any significant increase in, oh, eighteen months or so.

Maybe you ought to check the ates before you go spouting off. You might also note that one of the major causes for a slowly creeping unemployment number is cited as rising productivity.

But hey, the economy is falling apart, right?
Again, you're using the unemployment rate as the root of your discussion which DOESN'T SHOW WHO'S OUT OF WORK. I know my rates genius, and the amount of people who do not work are, and have been, on the rise.

You bet it's falling apart. There has been ZERO solutions provided save for tax cuts (while spending more-real fucking swift) and lowering the interest rate. What do we do when we still lose jobs to overseas? Why are we losing them? You realize it's not just manufacturing jobs that are making the trip don't you? How do you show rising productivity on an already overworked populace? By shrinking the FTE's, putting everyone on salary, hiring freezes, and cost of living increase freezes?

Yeah, real fucking healthy.
Paying out social security to all those baby boomers when the goddamned politicians refuse to stop using Social Security fund balances to show a budget surplus.
That's not the only place it's coming out of. Worse, budget isn't in a surplus
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Post by Fallanthas »

Overworked?


Bullshit. If you are over the age of twelve you should know better.


You CANNOT increase the number of those not working without also showing an increase in unemployment, at least for a time. Guess what? It ain't there. Every unemployed person has to go through a period of being eligible for unemployment. Unless you have a time machine squirreled away somewhere to jet them past the initial period, that is.

Increased productivity means fewer jobs unless you have a corresponding expanding market. Adding FTEs you don't need to get the job done doesn't improve the economy, it cuts profits and loses you investors. Think for a minute what that would do to the market and infrastructure investment.
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Post by Chidoro »

Fallanthas wrote:Overworked?


Bullshit. If you are over the age of twelve you should know better.
I work more hours a week than nearly two people. I am not unique or special in this regard. You bet I'm overworked but then, I'm not a fucking dispatcher or whatever the fuck you do.
You CANNOT increase the number of those not working without also showing an increase in unemployment, at least for a time. Guess what? It ain't there. Every unemployed person has to go through a period of being eligible for unemployment. Unless you have a time machine squirreled away somewhere to jet them past the initial period, that is.
Math > you

I'm not going to calculate it for you as I'm really too busy for this "educating the fiscally stunted" shit. Get a book, read how to do it, and come back to me
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Post by masteen »

Chidoro wrote:
Fallanthas wrote:
Duh
Well, you used it as your crutch to the arguement that the economy is a-ok. Duh yourself
There wasn't much of a dropoff, nor has there been any significant increase in, oh, eighteen months or so.

Maybe you ought to check the ates before you go spouting off. You might also note that one of the major causes for a slowly creeping unemployment number is cited as rising productivity.

But hey, the economy is falling apart, right?
Again, you're using the unemployment rate as the root of your discussion which DOESN'T SHOW WHO'S OUT OF WORK. I know my rates genius, and the amount of people who do not work are, and have been, on the rise.

You bet it's falling apart. There has been ZERO solutions provided save for tax cuts (while spending more-real fucking swift) and lowering the interest rate. What do we do when we still lose jobs to overseas? Why are we losing them? You realize it's not just manufacturing jobs that are making the trip don't you? How do you show rising productivity on an already overworked populace? By shrinking the FTE's, putting everyone on salary, hiring freezes, and cost of living increase freezes?

Yeah, real fucking healthy.
Paying out social security to all those baby boomers when the goddamned politicians refuse to stop using Social Security fund balances to show a budget surplus.
That's not the only place it's coming out of. Worse, budget isn't in a surplus
An overworked populace? Give me a fucking break. You aren't really this stupid are you? A country with a 5-day 40-hour week standard has an overworked populace? I'm sure the 14 year old Chinese kids working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week just to keep their mother and sister off the streets would fucking sell his liver to be overworked like that.

p.s. Please keep pulling phantom "jobless rates" out of your ass as well. Makes you look very credible :roll:
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Post by Fallanthas »

Well, my regular week is 55-60 hours. Considering my salary, that's not even close to being overworked. Also, this is not unusual NOR IS IT NEW! Since the early 80s, professional and executive work hours have been rising.

Once again, you CAN'T increase the number of displaced workers without showing an increase in unemployment. The only way this would happen is if not even one of those displaced asked for an unemployment benefit. If you are naiive enough to think that happens, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Chidoro, our economy is doing just fine. We have two problems looming on the horizon, both of which have been mentioned here. Markets aren't growing and the baby boomers are getting close to the magic day.
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Post by Chidoro »

masteen wrote:
Chidoro wrote:
Fallanthas wrote:
Duh
Well, you used it as your crutch to the arguement that the economy is a-ok. Duh yourself
There wasn't much of a dropoff, nor has there been any significant increase in, oh, eighteen months or so.

Maybe you ought to check the ates before you go spouting off. You might also note that one of the major causes for a slowly creeping unemployment number is cited as rising productivity.

But hey, the economy is falling apart, right?
Again, you're using the unemployment rate as the root of your discussion which DOESN'T SHOW WHO'S OUT OF WORK. I know my rates genius, and the amount of people who do not work are, and have been, on the rise.

You bet it's falling apart. There has been ZERO solutions provided save for tax cuts (while spending more-real fucking swift) and lowering the interest rate. What do we do when we still lose jobs to overseas? Why are we losing them? You realize it's not just manufacturing jobs that are making the trip don't you? How do you show rising productivity on an already overworked populace? By shrinking the FTE's, putting everyone on salary, hiring freezes, and cost of living increase freezes?

Yeah, real fucking healthy.
Paying out social security to all those baby boomers when the goddamned politicians refuse to stop using Social Security fund balances to show a budget surplus.
That's not the only place it's coming out of. Worse, budget isn't in a surplus
An overworked populace? Give me a fucking break. You aren't really this stupid are you? A country with a 5-day 40-hour week standard has an overworked populace? I'm sure the 14 year old Chinese kids working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week just to keep their mother and sister off the streets would fucking sell his liver to be overworked like that.
Yeah because we should compare our quality of life to countries that support simulated slave labor. Please, don't be so fucking stupid
p.s. Please keep pulling phantom "jobless rates" out of your ass as well. Makes you look very credible :roll:
Yeah, it's a real phantom that jobless rate. So when that 6% of people run out of unemployment benefits, they all have jobs? Companies found a spot for them? Or better yet, a percentage of them still aren't working but no longer have unemployment benefits. Right, RIGHT? I mean, they don't have unemployment benefits so are no longer apart of that 6% worthless figure but still aren't working. Huh? I'm going too fast? Little light bulb go off in that skull yet?
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Post by Chidoro »

Fallanthas wrote: Once again, you CAN'T increase the number of displaced workers without showing an increase in unemployment. The only way this would happen is if not even one of those displaced asked for an unemployment benefit. If you are naiive enough to think that happens, I've got a bridge to sell you.
Oyy vey. You obviously have no idea how to calculate this. That's fine. Think you understand every factor that goes into a 6% number. It's like talking to a child. You go ahead and sell me that bridge
Chidoro, our economy is doing just fine.
Yeah, it's doing great. We're really stable. Companies feel really loyal to the good ole' US. It's kicking ass I tell ya.

At least you understand the problem with the baby boomers but it goes even deeper than that. What are we at a 4.25% interest rate? Really kickstarting the economy isn't it
Last edited by Chidoro on August 8, 2003, 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cartalas
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Post by Cartalas »

Forthe wrote:I hope that the fan boys like cart and met are filthy rich. If not they are even dumber than I thought.

Or perhaps they just like taking it up the ass.

Thanks for bringing me in to this, but since your asking, Im not doing to bad :wink:

Need to borrow some money. :razz:
Last edited by Cartalas on August 8, 2003, 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kelgar
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Post by Kelgar »

Fucking please, Kelgar. You're not exactly a font of new and exciting economic infoz, either. Everything you spouted in your last 2 posts is pretty much verbatim Democrat demand-side theory.
Wow! The hell you say! I am spouting the same old shit that's been being said for years! Who would have thought that a theory which based on observations of the Clinton era successes would be espoused as though it were credible?!!

Is there something wrong with demand side theory....say as opposed to Republican trickle down theory (theory applies very loosely in the latter case, thus the term "voodoo economics")? The timebomb which is the deficit will eventually come back to bite everyone in the ass and by that time, the fucktard mainly responsible for it will long be dead. Good riddance, Bonzo has been very lonely for all these years. On a side note, fuck you asstastic cumguzzlers who named the turnpike after that fucking limpdick.

While I am a GOP-boy, I'm not here to argue Normative theories. The real reason behind both the massive expansion and the recent contraction of the US economy has its roots in the tech market.


You don't think an administration's fiscal policy has a sizable effect on the economy?
Because guess what? There is fundamentally NOTHING WRONG WITH THE ECONOMY
Wow. And I thought Brotha was the only person here wearing horse-blinders.
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Cartalas
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Post by Cartalas »

"Wow. And I thought Brotha was the only person here wearing horse-blinders."


Nope you are too!
Last edited by Cartalas on August 8, 2003, 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Chidoro
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Post by Chidoro »

Care to elaborate on that?

Fuck it, don't answer. I'm not sure if I can handle explaining the economy to people any longer
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masteen
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Post by masteen »

Kelgar wrote:You don't think an administration's fiscal policy has a sizable effect on the economy?
Yes, I think Bill Clinton's completly "hands-off" approach to the tech bubble is a HUGE reason we're where we are today.
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Forthe
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Post by Forthe »

Fallanthas wrote:Once again, you CAN'T increase the number of displaced workers without showing an increase in unemployment. The only way this would happen is if not even one of those displaced asked for an unemployment benefit. If you are naiive enough to think that happens, I've got a bridge to sell you.
Check out your last unemployment report. Note the number of people no longer included in the figure. It was stated in the release.

You CAN increase the number of displaced workers without showing an increase in unemployment if the displacement == the number of unemployed no longer included in figures.
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