Mana softcap

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 6, 2002, 9:45 pm

For those of you that don't know here is a link to the original thread on FoH boards posted by Frozboz.

Verant sux my nuts

What does this mean?

mana cap with int/wis gear + lvl 60= 2850
Mana cap with items = 1388

the cap on unbuffed mana for any person, any class, on any server is 4238.

Needless to say, this is the worst news I've heard in EQ since I started playing. The good news is, I am almost there!

Although non-casting classes may think that this does not affect you, don't get mad when the casters start asking for that hit point loot you've been working towards.

Mentalbus · Post by **Mentalbus** » August 7, 2002, 1:18 am

This MAJORLY sucks... I read it on FoH board.

Hopefully Verant will do something about it

But better to not hope for that

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » August 7, 2002, 7:14 am

/shrug

I've been shooting for ac/hp gear for a while now. Beyond serving as a cap on manaburn, why does this matter? Other than being showy, manaburn doesn't seem to be the most efficient thing on long fights. Burn teams taking down ~32k mobs for loot they don't need seems to be it's only real use.

Agro control and hp replacement seem to be the pressing issue, not mana pool size with the huge regen rates available at the high end. When was the last time you saw a "properly executed" fight go bad because the clerics were all oom?

Ravvenn · Post by **Ravvenn** » August 7, 2002, 9:38 am

Aabidano, although I dont completely agree with your post.
Gratz on having 69 posts!

~Rav

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » August 7, 2002, 9:44 am

Heh, waiting on coders. Not a lot to do at work this week

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 7, 2002, 11:14 am

it isnt a mana soft cap

it is a mana hard cap.

AC is soft capped, meaning that at let's say 1350 (for plate) you no longer get substantial returns on AC beyond that point. You still get some return, it is just substantially diminished. The slope of the curve is approaching zero.

It appears that mana is hard capped at a per level basis from reading that thread on FoH.

at any rate, the cap is too low.

personally i dont think mana should be capped at all, but if it were, it should be a much larger number like 5000.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » August 7, 2002, 11:56 am

at any rate, the cap is too low

Why? It's a serious question, as other than affecting MB values mana regen is much more important.

I've no idea how much mana a cleric uses during a 15+ minute fight, but I'm sure it far exceeds any realistic cap. Or any amount of +mana equipment that's in game.

The FT cap would be much more effective/important to raise IMO.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 7, 2002, 12:41 pm

i think they are quoting +1380 in items as your mana cap.

2800 or so is your lvl 60 255 int/wis cap (something like that, exact numbers not critical for my point).

on top of that with KEI and some other item effects you can expand the manapool.

but the orignial poster, Frozboz should have a theoretical manapool of like 4500 because of his items.

it is too low because casters will get to 4200 and cap, then the only stat that is of any importance to them is hp. and hp gear is already the only gear that is important to melee since anybody in their ToV armor is probably at their AC cap.

so basically hp becomes the only stat that is relevant on high end gear.

you'd have to ask a cleric how much mana they use in a 15min fight that requires a relatively fast healing chain but i think it is on the order of tens of thousands. you dont need a manapool of 5000 for that if you have a good mod rod feeding system as a poster pointed out on the original thread.

anyways, if you want the really good arguments click over to that thread.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 7, 2002, 1:09 pm

The reason is this.

This introduces a notion that a player can be maxed out in this game.

What propels people in this game is loot. What makes me different from other wizards I see is how my manapool is compared to theirs and how fast I regen that pool compared to theirs. This cap says once I reach that point (meaning max out my character), I will be like every other wizard that has reached that point. We will all be the same, with no room for improvement.

Then my drive for loot goes away. What's the point of me getting a better robe or a better belt when it really doesn't help me? What's the point of spending 3-6 hours a night raiding only to see all my melee friends constantly get upgrades? I guess I could ask for those big hitpoint upgrades but why? When I know that the melee would need them more.

Yeah you can say the thrill of victory and all that but you cannot deny that you want to upgrade your character.

And finally the cap is way too low. Anyone can get very close to the cap just buying all their shit. I'm already only about 250 or so away and I only have 1 item that's +100 mana. Most of my stuff is not no-drop. I can reach that cap with like 3 or so upgrades and I'm a frecking n00b.

It's sad and pathetic on Verant's part that a character can be maxed out before ever even venturing into high end encounters in SSra or VT.

Nylith · Post by **Nylith** » August 7, 2002, 1:28 pm

Xyun is right, the reason why it sucks is not because its necessarily useful, but because it caps character progression. As a cleric, I have FT, and mana, and gay focus items that don't effect complete heal. So now I get hps, which are of little use to me. Woohoo.

Think of it this way, how would you feel if hps had a hard cap, say at 5 or 6k. As stated, clerics can maintain a 3sec cheal cycle indefinatly, given proper mod rod and mana regen. So what does it matter of the tank has an additional 100 hps? or 1000 hps?

Just because its not needed, doesn't deminish its worth.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » August 7, 2002, 1:52 pm

There are probably only 5-6 items (all robes counting as one) in the game that I still want and would be useful to me or the guild. None of them really drive me to play.

Twinking the crap out of my warrior is still fun on the other hand.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 7, 2002, 1:56 pm

Aabidano wrote:
Twinking the crap out of my warrior is still fun on the other hand.

because he's not as his AC cap

but the point is, casters should not be maxxed on capability gained from items prior to even zoning into Ssra.

the time investments in succeeding there and beyond are substantial, and the payback to characters in item utility should reflect that.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » August 7, 2002, 2:07 pm

Heh, she just cleared 1000ac this week at level 52. It's doubtful she'll have much warlords gear for a long time to come. I should probably start farming the arena for exp & plate drops.

Female inkies in plate > all.

Most casters in decent guilds are effectively capped long before they hit any hard caps IMO. Agro control, hp and mana regen are the issue, not how much mana you could potentially have.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 7, 2002, 2:17 pm

Most casters in decent guilds are effectively capped long before they hit any hard caps IMO. Agro control, hp and mana regen are the issue, not how much mana you could potentially have.

I'm sorry you feel this way. This is simply untrue.

First of all if you know how to control your agro then hitpoints don't really matter do they? So you have to pick one or the other.

But neither of them are as important as manapool for casters. Maybe you never go oom, but I go oom on every encounter that takes longer then 15 mins.

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » August 7, 2002, 2:26 pm

Last I checked, Im not suspose to tank. So hps and ac are useless for me. What do casters need? ooo Mana. That funny looking blue stuff.

It doesnt make a diffrence you say if there is a cap? Then your a fucking moron. It doesnt only effect manaburn it effects every single casting class in this game. Larger mana pool = more time for manaregen while your casting. I have around 400 more mana over the cap. If that was gone,and I had that mana pool. Thats just an extra say min I have to regen mana. I regen around 60 mana per tic. If my l33t math skills add up right, I regen 2400 extra mana in that one min of casting.

I always run out of mana during raids,boss mobs. It isnt only for manaburn you fucking newbie. If you did more than fucking tash so_and_so mob you would relize this. Maybe once you get out of your 59th season of enchanting,and do something bigger than spiders in velks you will know this. You and some fucking morons on graffies make me want to beat some fucking sense in your heads. This doesnt only effect OMG MANABURNING WIZARDS,it does to everyone.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 7, 2002, 2:53 pm

Umm also, I think my math may be wrong. The cap seems to be at 4164.

You can read more about it at Graffe's Wizard Compilation

Raistin is right. We're talking all the casters in the guild here. While some 2nd tier guilds may only be losing 1k or 2k or so mana for the entire guild, the top tier guilds are losing upwards of 10-15k+ total mana. That's healing, crowd control, dps, debuffing, or whatever a caster does to contribute to the guild. If you think the extra mana does not matter, you don't need to be playing a caster.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » August 7, 2002, 3:16 pm

Well Raist, if you had any manners I could possibly give a shit about anything you have to say. Bite me.

Good point when you put it that way Xyun. That was useful info, and it makes sense as to why folks are pissed.

Aarinu · Post by **Aarinu** » August 7, 2002, 3:40 pm

Well Raist, if you had any manners I could possibly give a shit about anything you have to say. Bite me.

Can't take the truth can you?

Raist is right, mana=life of the party. The more you have in store, the more healing/damage you can do. Being an enchanter, your job is to tash, then fucking die. You do nothing more during an encounter, yet the clerics are CHing on rotation, Wizards are blowing it up. you know, 400 mana = another Complete Heal right? Or, for a wizard, it's amost 2200 damage that could have been done. Sure Regen helps, but in the end, that 400 mana=another nuke or heal

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » August 7, 2002, 3:53 pm

Aarinu, there's a difference between making a point and being an asshole.

Xyun made a point, Raist was being an ass while explaining the same thing.

Your role in this is being the kid in the playground who stands in the background and yells even though they add nothing useful beyond restateing the obvious.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 7, 2002, 3:54 pm

that's right you tell him Aarinu.

you tell him to tash that dar knight and stfu.

do you usually run what 8 seconds cycles on krups or what?

he agreed with what xyun had to say,

Aabidano wrote:Good point when you put it that way Xyun. That was useful info, and it makes sense as to why folks are pissed.

so what are you flaming him for? as for you, i'd worry more about getting group hero than telling him what his role on a raid is.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » August 7, 2002, 3:58 pm

Oh, and

job is to tash, then fucking die

just proves that while jumping my ass, you don't know what your talking about.

/wave

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » August 7, 2002, 4:08 pm

I was being a asshole because your clueless. Sorry if that slaps you on your forhead like a big dick. Your first reasoning behind not needing a bigger manapool is because of manaburn. Strike 1 vs me.

Your "when was the last time you saw a fight go bad because of a cleric running oom", doesnt cut it. Im sorry if other guilds do something more than a random Dar Knight in seblis. If youve been on Ntov raids this is the biggest point of it all. Clerics run out of mana a lot due to AEs. Larger mana pool for them = people stay alive more. But hey! You know about raids and manapools. Your NUMBER 1 and have all the answers,before you even go there.

I be a ass towards people who talk like they know what they know all the answers. You sir have no clue. This isnt all about manaburn,and controlling agro. Even tho you think manaburn is totally useless * how many wizards in your guild have manaburn? yea....ok like i thought* you think you know it,you state your first hand experience yet you just really dont know. Whatever. I sumed it up last post. Your clueless.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 7, 2002, 4:10 pm

Raistin [FoH] wrote:I be a ass

Raistin of the Nexus, FSU graduate 1998

this thread has crossover appeal!!!

now i accept that flaming over grammar is typically the resort of the weak, but come on, i really had no choice!!!

masteen · Post by **masteen** » August 7, 2002, 4:16 pm

Raist, your own guild leader has stated that clerics' mana pools, with CH rotations and mod rods, are effectively limitless.

Even doing haste, crack, tash, and slows, I seldom see chanters run low on mana.

The only people I see frothing at the mouth over this are y'all wizzies.

EDIT:

Raistin of the Nexus, FSU graduate 1998

That would explain the asshole syndrome...

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » August 7, 2002, 4:25 pm

masteen

What Furor had said was that with mod rods,and a CH roation our clerics dont run out of mana. Theres still times when our clerics still do. That could be lack of mages and clerics, meaning you need MORE PEOPLE playing 2 classes that depend on mana to keep this going. Yet this isnt all about clerics. Theres other classes who depend on mana. 1-2 less clerics in a roation group,could cut down the manaregen of the clerics and cause them to run out of mana. Theres a happy number somewhere.If you cant see this I dont know what I can do to show you.

Enchanters dont do much. Sorry if you think enchanters are a huge part of a raid and dont need anymore mana. They tash,Vog,Kei. Slap a slow on here and there because of afk shamans and there you go. Theres a big BIG diffrence between SETTING up the raid with buffs,or slapping on a buff here and there. As to compared to NON stop casting though a raid.

You want to point at wizards only? This effects more than just wizards. We just voice it more because thats ALL we can do.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » August 7, 2002, 4:34 pm

This affects wizards the most, but I will not dispute that for all casters, more blue stuff = good. I don't blame y'all wizzies for being pissed, either. A hard mana cap is the biggest wizard NERF I can think of, even if it was coded a year ago.

For a class who's entire purpose is to turn mana into damage, either thru manaburns or just the regular nasty nukes, this is worse than a slap to the face, but more like anal intrusion.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 7, 2002, 4:42 pm

Of course wizards are going to be the most outspoken about this issue. We are the ones that use our entire mana bar and are going oom every time we raid. And to a lesser extent this affects clerics and shamans the same way. If they put a hp cap obviously the warriors would gripe the most. Most other classes don't tank or absorb damage.

A mana cap at 4164 is just plain wrong, regardless of what class you are.

It's already becoming a dead horse, but this issue is not about how much mana a certain class uses over another.

This issue is about reaching a point in EQ where you cannot improve your character. EQ is about constantly becoming better.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » August 7, 2002, 4:43 pm

The mana pool affects everyone. While wide scale Bard/mod rod munching combos can make an infinite mana loop, this kind of efficiency is not always available to everyone and sometimes you just have to live with the mana you enter the battle with.

Rasitins argument:
Having a larger mana pool means you will have been regening mana longer before having to sit and med (or go rod munching) to get to that next nuke/CH/debuff/Torpor/ect. In essence, A cleric who has a mana pool large enough to regain 800 mana from standing mana regen in the time he burns through his mana pool is not just 100% better than another cleric who only gets 400 mana back before he toasts his initial reserve.

Xyun's argument:
People need goals to work towards in a game like this. For most that goal is character improvement, usually through gear. A hard cap (or even a soft cap really) applies a cieling and prevents people who work harder from distinguishing themselves. Its natural to be pissed about this, infinite mana loops or not.

My argument:
When as a Hybrid I am closing in on the mana cap in the game, and I don't even have access to the kind of gear these guys do, something is seriously fucked. Enchanters don't realize it because it is rarely a factor for them, they always have more mana than they know what to do with. Shamans don't notice because they can cheat since their HP are a part of their mana pool and mana regen and they can therefor get around the cap. Every other caster is hit with this. The softcap should be 6k (taking POP into consideration here and what will assuredly be 2 hour fights against 5 billion HP mobs with 9k AC) and there should be no hardcap, just half mana gained beyond the softcap.

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » August 7, 2002, 4:43 pm

It just upsets me when people say manapool isnt worth anything. Then they just have no clue. Thats why Im so touchy

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » August 7, 2002, 7:02 pm

"The softcap should be 6k (taking POP into consideration here and what will assuredly be 2 hour fights against 5 billion HP mobs with 9k AC) and there should be no hardcap, just half mana gained beyond the softcap."

Huh? Why cap it at all? If you have a game balance justification for capping it, why did you pick 6k and why 50% there after?

Note: the "cap" is an artificial second cap. The mana cap (assuming no artificial cap) is well below 6k 18 slots * 125 = 2250. Add that to the mana at level 60 with 255 Int/Wis (2850) = 5100 before buffs, so a second "cap" at 6k would be meaningless (this is especially true since the cap being discussed is only the cap on +mana from items, but I presumed you meant 6k total when you put up that number).

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » August 7, 2002, 7:50 pm

the cap is there to prevent twinking

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » August 7, 2002, 8:02 pm

Why 6k? Well its pretty much all thats attainable under current coding anyhow and there is a chance POP will alter item coding so greater than +127 mana per item is possible. Mana should be soft capped (not hard capped) simply so VI can have some sort of realistic bench mark against which to test and design top end encounters. For example its easier to adjust an end boss of PoP if you run wit the idea all the clerics and nukers are going to be at 6kish mana, no matter how ridiculous mudflation gets between now and when FOH/AL takes their first shot at said mob.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » August 8, 2002, 9:28 pm

Raistin

Anuin · Post by **Anuin** » August 8, 2002, 11:36 pm

Voronwë = Grammar Nazi

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 9, 2002, 2:28 am

In this group what difference does that cap make other than to manaburn?

wiz, wiz, wiz, wiz, sham, mage

Hammerstalker PE · Post by **Hammerstalker PE** » August 9, 2002, 2:51 am

The simple fact of the matter is a mana cap does adversely affect all casting classes. Wizards the most followed by clerics. This BS mana cap does exactly what everyone says it will do. Casters once they reach this cap will have absolutely no reason to play their class if all they can hope for is an HP boost from items.

Lets face it VI has created a mess with their lack of foresight.

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » August 9, 2002, 5:10 am

In this group what difference does that cap make other than to manaburn?

wiz, wiz, wiz, wiz, sham, mage

Well lets see here. Wiz= uh more nukes,more mana to regen.

Mage= More mod rods to push out

Shamans = Buff malo and slow?

You bringing up manaburn is stupid. I will only assume this is so because you play a stupid melee. Push any mobs in to a wall lately? Next time try,try and make more of a point about a mana cap,and not manaburn. What was your point about manaburn. You make it sound like manaburn is EPIC FIGHT BREAKING!

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 9, 2002, 5:40 am

I mention wiz, wiz, wiz, wiz, sham, mage because the mage and shammy should be able to keep you from going oom. The cap only becomes an issue when you hit oom or are too lom to cast the required spell. With enough regen to keep you above that point the cap has no effect on anything other than manaburn.

But yeah I'm only a dumb melee.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 9, 2002, 6:15 am

If it is possible to regen mana as fast as you spend it, then your theory would hold true. However, since this is impossible, the cap is and always will be a hinderance.

Ajran · Post by **Ajran** » August 9, 2002, 4:30 pm

From Castersrealm...

http://eq.castersrealm.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=4457

-Ajran

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » August 9, 2002, 4:36 pm

LOL. What a dumbass. "The cap has always been there but no one complained before. Its just like the STR cap." Yeah, just like it except for the fact that you could always see that STR never went above 255 and Mana has always been hidden. Whatever. Anyway, glad they changed it.