Story of American soldiers from an embed

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Story of American soldiers from an embed

Post by Brotha »

Yes, it's from NRO but it's not some right wing political BS. If you have the time you should read it, I know I found it to be a great essay =).

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/c ... 052303.asp
Since returning from Iraq a short time ago I have been answering a lot of questions about the war from friends, family, and strangers. When they ask me how it was over there I find myself glossing over the fighting, the heat, the sandstorms, and the flies (these last could have taught the Iraqi army a thing or two about staying power). Instead, I talk about the soldiers I met, and how they reflected the best of America. A lot of people are going to tell the story of how this war was fought; I would rather say something about the men who won the war.

War came early for the 1st Brigade of the 101st Airborne when an otherwise quiet night in the Kuwaiti desert was shattered by thunderous close-quarters grenade blasts. Sgt. Hasan Akbar, a U.S. soldier, had thrown grenades into an officers' tent, killing two and wounding a dozen others. Adding to the immediate confusion was the piercing scream of SCUD alarms, which kicked in the second Akbar's grenade exploded. For a moment, it was a scene of near panic and total chaos.

Just minutes after the explosions, a perimeter was established around the area of the attack, medics were treating the wounded, and calls for evacuation vehicles and helicopters were already being sent out. Remarkably, the very people who should have been organizing all of this were the ones lying on the stretchers, seriously wounded. It fell to junior officers and untested sergeants to take charge and lead. Without hesitation everyone stepped up and unfalteringly did just that. I stood in amazement as two captains (Townlee Hendrick and Tony Jones) directed the evacuation of the wounded, established a hasty defense, and helped to organize a search for the culprit. They did all this despite bleeding heavily from their wounds. For over six hours, these two men ran things while refusing to be evacuated until they were sure all of the men in their command were safe.

Two days later Capt. Jones left the hospital and hitchhiked back to the unit: He had heard a rumor that it was about to move into Iraq and he wanted to be there. As Jones — dressed only in boots, a hospital gown, and a flak vest — limped toward headquarters, Col. Hodges, the 1st Brigade's commander, announced, "I see that Captain Jones has returned to us in full martial splendor." The colonel later said that he was tempted to send Jones to the unit surgeon for further evaluation, but that he didn't feel he had the right to tell another man not to fight: Hodges himself had elected to leave two grenade fragments in his arm so that he could return to his command as quickly as possible.

The war had not even begun and already I was aware that I had fallen in with a special breed of men. Over the next four weeks, nothing I saw would alter this impression. A military historian once told me that soldiers could forgive their officers any fault save cowardice. After the grenade attack I knew these men were not cowards, but I had yet to learn that the brigade's leaders had made a cult of bravery. A few examples will suffice.

While out on what he called "battlefield circulation," Col. Hodges was surveying suspected enemy positions with one of his battalion commanders (Lt. Col. Chris Hughes) when a soldier yelled "Incoming" to alert everyone that mortar shells were headed our way. A few soldiers moved closer to a wall, but Hodges and Hughes never budged and only briefly glanced up when the rounds hit a few hundred yards away. As Hodges completed his review and prepared to leave, another young soldier asked him when they would get to kill whoever was firing the mortar. Hodges smiled and said, "Don't be in a hurry to kill him. They might replace that guy with someone who can shoot."

The next day, a convoy Col. Hodges was traveling in was ambushed by several Iraqi paramilitary soldiers. A ferocious firefight ensued, but Hodges never left the side of his vehicle. Puffing on a cigar as he directed the action, Hodges remained constantly exposed to fire. When two Kiowa helicopters swooped in to pulverize the enemy strongpoint with rocket fire, he turned to some journalists watching the action and quipped, "That's your tax dollars at work."

Bravery inspires men, but brains and quick thinking win wars. In one particularly tense moment, a company of U.S. soldiers was preparing to guard the Mosque of Ali — one of the most sacred Muslim sites — when agitators in what had been a friendly crowd started shouting that they were going to storm the mosque. In an instant, the Iraqis began to chant and a riot seemed imminent. A couple of nervous soldiers slid their weapons into fire mode, and I thought we were only moments away from a slaughter. These soldiers had just fought an all-night battle. They were exhausted, tense, and prepared to crush any riot with violence of their own. But they were also professionals, and so, when their battalion commander, Chris Hughes, ordered them to take a knee, point their weapons to the ground, and start smiling, that is exactly what they did. Calm returned. By placing his men in the most non-threatening posture possible, Hughes had sapped the crowd of its aggression. Quick thinking and iron discipline had reversed an ugly situation and averted disaster.

Since then, I have often wondered how we created an army of men who could fight with ruthless savagery all night and then respond so easily to an order to "smile" while under impending threat. Historian Stephen Ambrose said of the American soldier: "When soldiers from any other army, even our allies, entered a town, the people hid in the cellars. When Americans came in, even into German towns, it meant smiles, chocolate bars and C-rations." Ours has always been an army like no other, because our soldiers reflect a society unlike any other. They are pitiless when confronted by armed enemy fighters and yet full of compassion for civilians and even defeated enemies.

American soldiers immediately began saving Iraqi lives at the conclusion of any fight. Medics later said that the Iraqi wounded they treated were astounded by our compassion. They expected they would be left to suffer or die. I witnessed Iraqi paramilitary troops using women and children as human shields, turning grade schools into fortresses, and defiling their own holy sites. Time and again, I saw Americans taking unnecessary risks to clear buildings without firing or using grenades, because it might injure civilians. I stood in awe as 19-year-olds refused to return enemy fire because it was coming from a mosque.

It was American soldiers who handed over food to hungry Iraqis, who gave their own medical supplies to Iraqi doctors, and who brought water to the thirsty. It was American soldiers who went door-to-door in a slum because a girl was rumored to have been injured in the fighting; when they found her, they called in a helicopter to take her to an Army hospital. It was American soldiers who wept when a three-year-old was carried out of the rubble where she had been killed by Iraqi mortar fire. It was American soldiers who cleaned up houses they had been fighting over and later occupied — they wanted the places to look at least somewhat tidy when the residents returned.

It was these same soldiers who stormed to Baghdad in only a couple of weeks, accepted the surrender of three Iraqi Army divisions, massacred any Republican Guard unit that stood and fought, and disposed of a dictator and a regime with ruthless efficiency. There is no other army — and there are no other soldiers — in the world capable of such merciless fighting and possessed of such compassion for their fellow man. No society except America could have produced them.

Before I end this I want to point out one other quality of the American soldier: his sense of justice. After a grueling fight, a company of infantrymen was resting and opening their first mail delivery of the war. One of the young soldiers had received a care package and was sharing the home-baked cookies with his friends. A photographer with a heavy French accent asked if he could have one. The soldier looked him over and said there would be no cookies for Frenchmen. The photographer then protested that he was half Italian. Without missing a beat, the soldier broke a cookie in half and gave it to him. It was a perfect moment and a perfect reflection of the American soldier.
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Post by kyoukan »

GOD DAMN THATS SO GOD DAMN BEAUTIFUL IT BRINGS A TEAR TO BY GOD DAMN EYE.

MY COUNTRY TIS OF THEE
SWEET LAND OF LIIIIBERTY
OF THEE I SING

stop posting shit you moron.
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Post by Acies »

Before I end this I want to point out one other quality of the American soldier: his sense of justice. After a grueling fight, a company of infantrymen was resting and opening their first mail delivery of the war. One of the young soldiers had received a care package and was sharing the home-baked cookies with his friends. A photographer with a heavy French accent asked if he could have one. The soldier looked him over and said there would be no cookies for Frenchmen. The photographer then protested that he was half Italian. Without missing a beat, the soldier broke a cookie in half and gave it to him. It was a perfect moment and a perfect reflection of the American soldier.
The perfect reflection of an American soldier, that being a biased idiotic fuck?!
This is offensive. I hope this soldier gets bitten by a rabid dog and is to far from civilization to get treatment MY French ancestor created.
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Post by Avestan »

no cookies for you!
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Post by Acies »

Avestan wrote:no cookies for you!
My Frenchie side is InSaNe with anger!!1!
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Post by Zamtuk »

They keep referring to a war. What war are they talking about? I was always under the impression that there had to be two sides fighting for there to be a war. Guess that must of been a psychological war!

That article is stupid as fuck.
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Post by Fairweather Pure »

That article is sickly sweet. Like a marshmellow soaked in honey. It's a little too much.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

Acies wrote:
Avestan wrote:no cookies for you!
My Frenchie side is InSaNe with anger!!1!
Ok that made me laugh, grats.
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Post by Brotha »

kyoukan- I love you too

Acies- I think it was more of a joke than anything. Stop trying to be so politically correct on everything man =p

Zamtuk- yeah we marched to Baghdad with only a few shots being fired, all of which were either at practice dummies or the incompetent American soldiers shooting at each other. :roll:

Even though we had complete dominance, I think this still qualified as a war. You should PM miir to post a definition of war though, his skills have been lacking as of late.
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Post by Zamtuk »

The 'war' lasted as long as it took us to get to Baghdad. Which was what? A shade over a month? I myself would like to think of it as an invasion. Because in all honesty that's what it was.
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Post by Niffoni »

Racism is the perfect reflection of an american soldier? Damn, that's press I'd be able to live without.

Not that I'm suggesting he should have shared his cookie with anyone. It was HIS COOKIE, DAMMIT! and all those freeloading cookieless bastards should get their own!

... I'm a lot more passionate about cookies than I am about politics. I guess cookies are just easier to take seriously :-k
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Post by Brotha »

Niffoni wrote:Racism is the perfect reflection of an american soldier? Damn, that's press I'd be able to live without.

Not that I'm suggesting he should have shared his cookie with anyone. It was HIS COOKIE, DAMMIT! and all those freeloading cookieless bastards should get their own!

... I'm a lot more passionate about cookies than I am about politics. I guess cookies are just easier to take seriously :-k
Now that I've taken some time to reflect on my views on life and put aside any of my thoughts and emotions that may in someway offend someone, I've come the conclusion that what he did was wrong. He should have walked around the camp and found those less fortunate than him, those who didn't get any mail. Then, he should have made sure african americans/hispanics/females/white males each recieved a correct proportion of cookies, so as not to inspire any sort of jealousy or any other sorts of feelings of ill will. People have feelings and they must be respected, this soldier would be doing his part in making sure the self esteem of any emotionally delicate soldiers was not in anyway damaged. Perfect politically correct American story!
Last edited by Brotha on May 23, 2003, 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by noel »

Dude, just stop trying.

You're such a jackass sometimes.
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Post by Keverian FireCry »

sometimes?
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Post by noel »

Keverian FireCry wrote:sometimes?
Yeah, Brotha can actually be pretty cool when he's not talking about politics or shitting in a pool.

He'd do himself a great service to never post in this forum again.
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Post by Lalanae »

Aranuil wrote:shitting in a pool
LOL
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Post by noel »

That Lalanae is so hawt right now!
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Post by Brotha »

Just passing time and having fun man. I'm really not too concerned with the image I make of myself on VV or whatever. I'll be playing EQ again soon (hopefully), then I'll have more important things to do :P.
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Post by Acies »

So by him breaking half a cookie off to give to the reporter who was half French and Italian, only half because Italians are cool and all, this soldier is politically correct?

Nay, I think not sir. This soldier is a moron, as many Americans, excuse me, human being period, are. It is our greatest weakness, our tendancy to so readily forget the past, and thus we becomed doomed to repeat it.

No, this soldier is not someone I look up to. This soldier is not an American as many we would view ourselves. He is a coward. He could have made a positive impression and showed indifference to the reporters nationality, but instead he folded to... what? Peer pressure? Sheep mentality?

I know you will point out the fact that he put his life on the line to invade Iraq so the Bush administration could secure oil for the U.S., and he is brave for that. I disagree, as 1) it is easier to put your life on the line than promoting change against popular opinion and 2) this conflict was about greed, not virtue.

Anyway... his actions, if nothing else, also added a semiblance of credit to most radical Islamic organizations hatred towards the zionistic, evil United States.
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Post by Forthe »

He forgot to mention that American bullets make you feel warm and fuzzy as they pass through you and how American soldiers are very compasionate and thoughtful when they kill you.

Only in America!!! (because they know shit all about any other country)
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Post by Lalanae »

You people just think you are a bunch of intelletural jugglernots throwing around your pop rock socialistic theorys.
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Post by Acies »

Lalanae wrote:You people just think you are a bunch of intelletural jugglernots throwing around your pop rock socialistic theorys.

OMGzorZ! U ShUT up b-4 eye puNk u wiT mA ExtraelordinAre Powah o' THinkIn!!!1! ;)
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Post by Rasspotari »

let´s libarate another country that doesn´t have democracy but has something we want, show them the beauty of democracy and trade, and then also....

since democracy was at one point something about , freedom of speech, ever voice can be heard, the people should have a point of view.

and then ....

when that person is french . Boycutt all french products cuz they shouldn´t say that about us, cuz they can´t disagree with us, cuz we are right and they are wrong and if they dont agree with us we´ll bomb the shit out of them or at least try and hurt them by not buying anything that is remotely related to france.

go democracy !!!

hypocrisy is mah favorite word since that ... war ..

still brings a smile to my face when i read stuff like this ...
Since returning from Iraq a short time ago I have been answering a lot of questions about the war from friends, family, and strangers. When they ask me how it was over there I find myself glossing over the fighting, the heat, the sandstorms, and the flies (these last could have taught the Iraqi army a thing or two about staying power). Instead, I talk about the soldiers I met, and how they reflected the best of America. A lot of people are going to tell the story of how this war was fought; I would rather say something about the men who won the war.
laff , "i would rather say something about the men who won the war"

men didn´t win that war, money did. that´s what wins all wars. there aren´t any heros. there are only tools to appease the shit for brain masses, there are only men that just happened to be at the "right" place at the "right" time , and the emotional intelligance took over their rational think pattern and led them to do something stupid which then got blown out of proportions to .. you guessed it .. create a tool to appease the shit for brain masses.

no disrespect for the families of those that died at 9.11
but .. the firemen . that died there, ran into a building not making sure the building was safe to go into. and then the building crashed ontop of them. a tragedy for sure. but were they heros ?? not in my mind, they were impulsive, and paid a dear price for that.
a nation in fear needed to look at something positive, something heroic . so they were made into heros. the purpose is good, and i respect that. but they were created as heros. they did nothing heroic in my mind.

good lord am i gonna get flamed for this.

ps. quick edit . i´m pro america, got nothing but respect for the economy there that allows the nation to bloom as it has been doing and still is doing so well. there are downsides. but so does every economy.
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Post by Acies »

Yes you are, but not from me.

I disagree with your assessment. Those fireman and policemen ran in their, knowing full well it could collapse at any moment.
They ran in there, hoping to save lives before it did. Sadly, there was not enough time.

When I think of those fireman and cops, they died trying to save lives, regardless of the peril to themselves. That is the essence of honor. THAT makes me proud to be an American.
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Post by Xzion »

lol kyou, have you ever stated one positive, or even one non negative thing about the US? come the fuck on you hate this place worse then any middle eastern

i generally dont like this country either and if it wasnt for friends and family i would move my ass back to spain or holland or italy...but damn its like your mission in life to diss the US, it isnt THAT bad of a place


...and canada aint that much different
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Post by Brotha »

Rasspotari wrote:when that person is french . Boycutt all french products cuz they shouldn´t say that about us, cuz they can´t disagree with us, cuz we are right and they are wrong and if they dont agree with us we´ll bomb the shit out of them or at least try and hurt them by not buying anything that is remotely related to france.
How many countries disagreed with us over the Iraq issue? TONS. How many do a good amount of Americans want to boycott? ONE. It's fine to disagree with us. We have freedom of speech in the US (despite what some people who have nothing but stupid stuff to say like to argue when they're rambling on and people *GASP* don't want to listen to them!) and we have no problem with others speaking out against us.

What we DO have a problem with is when a country actively campaigns against us (like France did in the security council) and, in our eyes, jeopardizes our national security because it happens to be in their economic interests. It was later discovered that France even briefed Saddam over private meetings they had with us. This, in my mind, crosses the line between free speech and turns into conduct that is directly detrimental to our country.
Rasspotari wrote:men didn´t win that war, money did. that´s what wins all wars. there aren´t any heros. there are only tools to appease the shit for brain masses, there are only men that just happened to be at the "right" place at the "right" time , and the emotional intelligance took over their rational think pattern and led them to do something stupid which then got blown out of proportions to .. you guessed it .. create a tool to appease the shit for brain masses.
I disagree. While we're all made of flesh and bone, there ARE those who know how put aside fear, have a sense of honor, and have compassion for their fellow man. The United States soldiers exhibited all three of those attributes, and any person looking objectively at the situation can see the results clearly.

Were there any mass executions? Any rapes? Any large amounts PoW's beaten or even so much as treated unfairly? Any civilian areas deliberately targetted? Nope, in how many other wars in the history of the world can the same be said?

How many bombs hit targets other than military targets? Why is this? Did we throw a billion dollars at some computer to get this information? No, we had special ops on the ground targetting these military facilities for MONTHS. How many bombs hit anything other than there intended target (ie accidently hitting civilian areas)? Perhaps a handful out of THOUSANDS. This is because of the skill of our soldiers, not money.

I think Acies expressed my sentiments on the firemen perfectly.
Rasspotari wrote:good lord am i gonna get flamed for this.
Not by me, I'm game for anyone who wants to carry on a civil conversation. I don't resort to using four letter words to help make a point unless someone else does so first.
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Post by Bocc »

Rass, while the firefighters who were killed on 9-11 were acting on impulse, it was impulse to help another person. Even though the end result of their efforts may not have been what they had hoped for, giving your own life in an attempt to save someone elses defines heroism to me.

While it probably was money that won the war, respect should be given to the soldiers who fought in it. Many of our own soldiers shared your view on the war, but were forced to fight in it. Not only did many of them fight a war they did not believe in, but they are having anti-American bullshit hurled at them from all corners of the world. I respect any soldier fighting to protect my country.

Acies, while what that soldier did was not politically correct, it was a joke. I think you're overreacting a bit. I'm guessing that if the French reporter played off his Italian heritage to get half a cookie, he wasn't as offended as you are.

This is not a flame in any way, just my thoughts.
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Post by Niffoni »

Won't someone think of the cookies? ;_;

EDIT: Brotha, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that I was being sarcastic. I assure you that if I had a cookie, I wouldn't give it to anyone, especially if I'm stuck overseas where cookie-availability is not a constitutional guarentee.

I'm saying the little bitch had no right to ask for a cookie. Because it wasn't his. Not because he has some potential connection to country whose government is currently involved in a cat-fight with HIS country's government.

Wow... see..? I really do feel strongly about freedom to enjoy one's cookie.
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Post by Kguku »

Niffoni wrote:I'm saying the little bitch had no right to ask for a cookie. Because it wasn't his. Not because he has some potential connection to country whose government is currently involved in a cat-fight with HIS country's government.

Wow... see..? I really do feel strongly about freedom to enjoy one's cookie.
Actually, he had every right to ask for a cookie. It's your right to ask a complete stranger for a cookie if you want. It's the person who has the cookie right to refuse if they so wish.
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Post by Niffoni »

touche, fellow cookie enthusiast...

Oops, was that (incorrectly spelled) French? ^^;
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Post by Acies »

Bocc wrote: Acies, while what that soldier did was not politically correct, it was a joke. I think you're overreacting a bit. I'm guessing that if the French reporter played off his Italian heritage to get half a cookie, he wasn't as offended as you are.
Heh, bro I don't, in all reality wish death via rabies on that American soldier, just a poor attempt a sarcasm. Next time i'll put "1!!1!" at the end ;)
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Post by Xyun »

ROFL

half a cookie for his italian half. poor half breed.
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Post by Bocc »

oops.
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Post by Rasspotari »

Acies wrote:Yes you are, but not from me.

I disagree with your assessment. Those fireman and policemen ran in their, knowing full well it could collapse at any moment.
They ran in there, hoping to save lives before it did. Sadly, there was not enough time.

When I think of those fireman and cops, they died trying to save lives, regardless of the peril to themselves. That is the essence of honor. THAT makes me proud to be an American.
i´m pretty sure they had no certainties, they of course hoped it wouldn´t , but ran in there without any knowledge of the situation xept this.
-this is a crisis
-my job is to help
-there are people in there

imo they as professionals should have added
-this buildings´ stability status is beyond my knowledge so i will not risk my life in vein
-as a professional i should act on training not impulse

and you can be proud, to be of the same nationality as those firemen, would you still be proud to be an american if all those firemen had been foreign immigrants from asia , africa , europe , even france ? ;)
mind you i have a high respect for the profession, beeing a fireman requires you to be a very unselfish person at heart i´d think.
but you must see some validity in my point, that they were MADE heros to ease the greeveing process of an injured nation.
Brotha wrote:How many countries disagreed with us over the Iraq issue? TONS. How many do a good amount of Americans want to boycott? ONE. It's fine to disagree with us. We have freedom of speech in the US (despite what some people who have nothing but stupid stuff to say like to argue when they're rambling on and people *GASP* don't want to listen to them!) and we have no problem with others speaking out against us.

What we DO have a problem with is when a country actively campaigns against us (like France did in the security council) and, in our eyes, jeopardizes our national security because it happens to be in their economic interests. It was later discovered that France even briefed Saddam over private meetings they had with us. This, in my mind, crosses the line between free speech and turns into conduct that is directly detrimental to our country.

imo nations as well as people should campaign against what they believe to be in their interest, be it health care, prevention of income, or to supply a powersource for your economy.
and of those nations that opposed the US/UK on this, who had the power of voice, only one country , France. Since i´m pretty sure that if Argentina had tried to voice it´s oppionion as loudly it would have gone more mute then when France did it. yes of course they were doing it because they were protecting their investment in Iraq, Iraq owes france a huge amount of money and pays them annually a good chunk, since when do presidents and prime ministers do the "right" thing over doing the profitable thing for their nation.
and plz dont try and convince yourself that war was for peace or to free Iraq, it was because of oil, if you dont realize this you are naive and argueing with you about this is pointless :)


and yes wars are won by money, money buys superiour training, better equipment, that in return produces better soilders.
the men themselves play a very little role there, xept for maybe this
the men and women in the US army are volenteers mostly, whilst the Iraq forces are made partially up of men that felt they needed to be there or it was expected of them.
men and women from the US aren´t BETTER then the men and women in Iraq, if you try and claim that .. we´ll all know what you are :) so dont go there, reflects both racism and stupidity.

why didn´t men and women in the coalition force rape, plunder or execute, 2 reasons, they had a more firm training and know they are beeing watched, plus they knew they were beeing watched by the press.
and if you try and claim it´s cuz the US population is more honorable and wouldn´t do such things. we´ll all know what you are ... copy paste.
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Post by Avestan »

has anyone tried to take a bite of a chips ahoy without getting a chip? It is hard! Damned hard!
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Rasspotari wrote:imo nations as well as people should campaign against what they believe to be in their interest, be it health care, prevention of income, or to supply a powersource for your economy.
Campaigning against us is not something covered under free speech. If they have the right to campaign against us, don't we have the right to do the same? It's not like we're threatening to nuke them...

Also, (using your logic not mine) if we're doing this because it's in our economic best interests, and France is too, why are we the evil ones? Before you say "because innocents were killed", remember the lives saved from our actions of removing a brutal dictator.
Rasspotari wrote:and of those nations that opposed the US/UK on this, who had the power of voice, only one country , France.
I saw tons of countries speaking out, anyone who wanted to could. I said what France did that others didn't, and I still say that's crossing the line of free speech.
Rasspotari wrote:and plz dont try and convince yourself that war was for peace or to free Iraq, it was because of oil, if you dont realize this you are naive and argueing with you about this is pointless
I think there was more to it than oil. It's very naive to call everyone who disagrees with you naive.
Rasspotari wrote:and if you try and claim it´s cuz the US population is more honorable and wouldn´t do such things. we´ll all know what you are ... copy paste.
I truly believe the US population is more honorable and has values that keep us from doing such things. I certainly think the things you mentioned were factors, but I also think our society and upbringing played huge roles. Do you think people in Iran have these values? That if they invaded Iraq, even if they knew the media would be there, they would hold back?

I'll quote from the story I posted:
Ours has always been an army like no other, because our soldiers reflect a society unlike any other. They are pitiless when confronted by armed enemy fighters and yet full of compassion for civilians and even defeated enemies.

American soldiers immediately began saving Iraqi lives at the conclusion of any fight. Medics later said that the Iraqi wounded they treated were astounded by our compassion. They expected they would be left to suffer or die. I witnessed Iraqi paramilitary troops using women and children as human shields, turning grade schools into fortresses, and defiling their own holy sites. Time and again, I saw Americans taking unnecessary risks to clear buildings without firing or using grenades, because it might injure civilians. I stood in awe as 19-year-olds refused to return enemy fire because it was coming from a mosque.

It was American soldiers who handed over food to hungry Iraqis, who gave their own medical supplies to Iraqi doctors, and who brought water to the thirsty. It was American soldiers who went door-to-door in a slum because a girl was rumored to have been injured in the fighting; when they found her, they called in a helicopter to take her to an Army hospital. It was American soldiers who wept when a three-year-old was carried out of the rubble where she had been killed by Iraqi mortar fire. It was American soldiers who cleaned up houses they had been fighting over and later occupied — they wanted the places to look at least somewhat tidy when the residents returned.
I think it's very cynical and unrealistic to attribute all of that to training and being watched by the media.

Sorry Niffoni, I had no idea someone could be so passionate about cookies. I hope the people who live around you keep the chips o hoy under lock and key :P.
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Post by Forthe »

It is easy to take the high road in an quick easy conflict. Morals break down the longer the conflict continues as soldiers become hardened. Social upbringing can delay (or accelerate) this hardening but in time most, if not all, of us would become heartless killers.
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sorry . of course americans are better people.. ... ... .... wtf .. that doesn´t sit right . crimes there are higher then in most parts of the world.
iran ? no i would guess they would do some things that the coalition forces have not (to my knowledge) done, as in rape pillage etc. but i only see that cuz of the sociaty they live in . the training they have gotten as soldiers (read as not much more then how to fire a gun, if that).
it has nothing to do with them beeing worse people .. if you HONESTLY believe that people in the rest of the world are these wicked dangerous critters that would go rampant if given the chance you need to rethink your view on the world .. and in that i mean .. not the world map you see on the weather news :) (north america) but the REST of the world, other side of that round thing we live on for example ;)

i´m not calling everyone that disagrees with me naive, and i didn´t mean to imply that the war was ONLY because of oil. but that´s the single biggest factor for that war.

campaigning against you, i see nothing wrong with that, not by boycotting US products, not by trying to belittle and redicule the "american" tag some products might have. freedom fries .. for fuck sake.
because what does that do .. boycott = less trade.
and what is the biggest prevention factor for war .... TRADE .. and oil helps Iraq trade with the rest of the world. US will gain a lot from that , they need and want the oil. but Iraq will gain more. good for them.

remember Ford .. he made cars . lots of em .. then he for some reason increased the salary of his workers .. why ? .. so more people could buy the cars (as in his workers) . why ? cuz that meant more sales which meant more trade which meant more profit.

and nation A wont be able to trade with nation B , if nation B is FAR below nation A in economic strength and size, so .. LIFT up the other side . and you will gain in the long run . why do you think the US (who have a STAGGERINGLY bigger economy then any other country in the world, bigger then the next 3 combined) has been giving financial support to other nations .. cuz they´re NICE ? .. heh .. no it´s to help them grow their economy .. so they can trade with the US . those nations in the short run and even the long run will gain more then the US .. but the US will gain more then they were before .. so it´s in their interest.

and i say again .. there is NO OTHER FACTOR that insures peace as well as Trade !

and you aren´t the evil ones, never said you were , i liked the results . Saddam no longer in power, that´s good. how it was brought about on the other hand i´ll allow myself to argue against. would it have taken a longer time then was the case with war, probably .. i dont give a damn if it would have taken 2 more years for example. i´m ANTI war .. period.

what france did ?
what exactly did they do that crossed the lines. sorry to have to admit i´m not sure what they are beeing accused of doing, or what they did do indeed.
are you sure they did those things they are accussed of having done, or is it just easier and more befitting your already made up mind about what french are to you today ?

oh and that naive to call everyone who disagrees with me naive, i didn´t do that, i said that those that dont realize that it was about oil (should have said Mostly about oil) are naive, and this isn´t my oppionion. i.e. that it was about oil.

"Ours has always been an army like no other, because our soldiers reflect a society unlike any other. They are pitiless when confronted by armed enemy fighters and yet full of compassion for civilians and even defeated enemies. "

i´m not so sure everyone in Vietnam agrees with that :)

"I stood in awe as 19-year-olds refused to return enemy fire because it was coming from a mosque"

and i´m sure no american ever shot at a mosque ... one incident isn´t the general behaviour ... it´s one incident.

"It was American soldiers who handed over food to hungry Iraqis, who gave their own medical supplies to Iraqi doctors, and who brought water to the thirsty"

money , they had more of em . and most decent human beeings, will help others when they are comfortable themselves, this isn´t a US trait. it´s a human trait, and yes americans are human i believe. not gods , not higher beeings , not supermen . they´re humans that live in one particular part of the globe.

"I think it's very cynical and unrealistic to attribute all of that to training and being watched by the media. "

it´s also sorta out of it to attribute that to the sole reason of "beeing american" they´re human beeings that wanted to be nice by not leaving the country they were invading in ruins, and yes i think that´s cuz they were under orders from their superiors on this. think from a PR perspective here and u´ll see it makes sense. looking for that girl , that one i´ll put a hero stamp on if it wasn´t some superious ordering lower ranks to do it, but some in the ditch group of guys that took it on themselves to look into possibly helping out a girl that was injured.

helping others isn´t a US trait, it´s a human trait, and yes .. i´m pretty darn sure people from Iraq have helped someone.. maybe even people from Iran , and *gasp* i do believe i might believe an Afghani has helped someone as well.

remembered a joke that often rings more true then i´d wanna believe.

what to say and what not to say while driving through the border from Mexico to the US.

what to say
"so you say it´s 500 pesetas, so was it 100 pesetas per dollar or 100 dollar per peseta, i always get those confused"

what NOT to say
"i´m an american , your hillbilly laws dont apply to me, now step away from the vehicle mr. latino wanna-be guard guy and open the damn gate already"


americans are very patriotic .. that´s all good and well . but thinking yourself Better then the rest of the world is crossing the line of stupity. you just happened to be the decendants of some people that moved to that particular part of the world at one point in time and decided to stay. that´s it .. there isn´t anything in the water that makes you smarter , stronger . more honorable , or better human beeings, you´re just as imperfect as the rest of us, it might hurt the ego abit but realizing it is a good step.

/hugz
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Post by Rasspotari »

Forthe wrote:It is easy to take the high road in an quick easy conflict. Morals break down the longer the conflict continues as soldiers become hardened. Social upbringing can delay (or accelerate) this hardening but in time most, if not all, of us would become heartless killers.
that´s rediculous,, americans would never become heartless killers, they dont have serial killers or evil men that cheat or lie. they are better then that , more honorable cuz they live in a society that´s unlike any other.
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Post by Brotha »

Rasspotari wrote:but i only see that cuz of the sociaty they live in . the training they have gotten as soldiers (read as not much more then how to fire a gun, if that).
Exactly, because of the society we live in. So what training do you think our soldiers would get that Iranian's wouldn't? Do we take ours to some morality class where respect for others and compassion is indoctrinated into them? I have to assume you're referring to discipline, but the last time I checked American's were a bunch of lazy, beer drinking, football watching fat asses, while people in the middle east were strict adherents to the Koran and led untainted lives. But really, I think people in Iranian armies would have the same amount of discipline in their training as we would. I'd be willing to bet in Saddam's Iraq, officers were much more strict on soldiers than the average army unit in the US. I read where in army boot camp the biggest punishment a drill sergeant is allowed to order now is something like ten push ups.
Rasspotari wrote:it has nothing to do with them beeing worse people
I don't think they're "worse people" at all. There are countries that fight for what they believe in, and there are countries that would appease. There are countries where people are allowed to speak out, and there are countries where people are executed for doing so. There are countries where people can worship whoever/whatever they want, and there are countries where beliefs are forced upon there people. There are countries that are peaceful and do not wish to take from others, and there are countries who would willingly invade a neighbor for whatever his unjust reasons might be. There are countries who extend a hand to enemies and their families after they have defeated them, and there are those who would torture, starve, rape, and murder the populis in countries they have conquered. Do I think the inhabitants in the second of all those countries are "worse people"? Nope, I just know that I'm glad I live in a country that's in the first part of all those questions.
Rasspotari wrote:campaigning against you, i see nothing wrong with that, not by boycotting US products, not by trying to belittle and redicule the "american" tag some products might have. freedom fries .. for fuck sake.
because what does that do .. boycott = less trade.
and what is the biggest prevention factor for war .... TRADE .. and oil helps Iraq trade with the rest of the world. US will gain a lot from that , they need and want the oil. but Iraq will gain more. good for them.
So it's ok for them to collaberate with our enemy? Or bribe countries so they will vote against us? Well, I guess it is ok, for them. But when they do these things against us, don't we have every right to boycott their products?
Rasspotari wrote:and you aren´t the evil ones, never said you were , i liked the results . Saddam no longer in power, that´s good. how it was brought about on the other hand i´ll allow myself to argue against. would it have taken a longer time then was the case with war, probably .. i dont give a damn if it would have taken 2 more years for example. i´m ANTI war .. period.
So why are you anti war then? From all accounts, it would have been years, most likely decades, until Saddam could have been removed by his own people- by then how many more would have been tortured, starved, or murdered? How many more would have been killed in wars he had started? How many more unsuccessful uprisings would there have been, resulting in mass murders? And even in a successful revolution, TONS more would have died than did in the precise war America waged. I really do want to know, why are you anti war no matter what, even given these circumstances?
Rasspotari wrote:i´m not so sure everyone in Vietnam agrees with that
Vietnam was a black eye in American history. Our motives as a nation were good ones, we just had terrible leadership and chose the wrong place to make a stand. If I had been alive then, I would have protested the war once all the facts came out. But, Vietnam aside, that statement remains true in every other conflict we've been involved in that comes to mind.
Rasspotari wrote:and i´m sure no american ever shot at a mosque ... one incident isn´t the general behaviour ... it´s one incident.
Actually, there were orders from the top that mosques were to be respected. As far as I know, no mosques have been violated, despite what many arabs are being told by state ran television. Even given that, the actions of them to not even return fire on a mosque when people were clearly shooting at them was going above and beyond the call of duty and should be commended.
Rasspotari wrote:money , they had more of em . and most decent human beeings, will help others when they are comfortable themselves, this isn´t a US trait. it´s a human trait, and yes americans are human i believe. not gods , not higher beeings , not supermen . they´re humans that live in one particular part of the globe.
If you've gotten the idea that I think Americans are somehow superior to the rest of the world, then either you're inferring things that I didn't mean to imply or I've mistyped something. What if Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, the whole middle east invaded Israel tomorrow. After a long siege of Israel they took Tel Aviv and marched into the city, still fully supplied and with plenty of food. Wouldn't they pass out food to the starving jews? They're human beings, right?
Rasspotari wrote:helping others isn´t a US trait, it´s a human trait,
I agree, I don't think Americans are born with an extra brain cell others in the world are born without that exclusively compels us to help others. I think our culture as a whole, with the values such as democracy and respect for other's beliefs and rights we have enstilled in us, does contribute to who we are and how we act after defeating an enemy. This is true for other countries who have similar values as well.

Hate is also a human trait, but I see OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS more hate in the middle east than I do in America. We're all basically born the same, but how we're raised and the environment we live in contribute to how we behave. Those two contributing factors happen to be different here than in the middle east and some other parts of the world, and I think we act like better people as a whole because of it, but if you want to disagree with me on that one go ahead =p.
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Post by Lalanae »

does contribute to who we are and how we act after defeating an enemy.
it also contributes to creating enemies out of molehills....
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Post by Rasspotari »

the sizes of replys are excalating ... lets agree to disagree :D hehe
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Post by Brotha »

I think that's something we can both agree on =p
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

Rasspotari wrote:
no disrespect for the families of those that died at 9.11
but .. the firemen . that died there, ran into a building not making sure the building was safe to go into. and then the building crashed ontop of them. a tragedy for sure. but were they heros ?? not in my mind, they were impulsive, and paid a dear price for that.
a nation in fear needed to look at something positive, something heroic . so they were made into heros. the purpose is good, and i respect that. but they were created as heros. they did nothing heroic in my mind.
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Post by vn_Tanc »

but I see OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS more hate in the middle east than I do in America
Try voicing an opinion other than the most widely accepted one and see how much hate you get.
There's just as much hate in the US it's just buried under smiles. Once you scratch the surface a little bit that juicy, venomous, "do as we say or we'll fuckin nuke you" side comes out.
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Post by Fizzlewhip »

vn_Tanc

Have you even been to the US. And I mean for more than a holiday?

Go to Berkley. See how much "hate" you get for voicing an opinion that is against the mainstream. You will fit right in actually.

It amazes me how people from outside the US, seem to know so much about a country that spans from one ocean to another. They throw out stereotypes based upon what they see on TV. That would be like me claiming all Canadians are either Mounties, lumberjacks, or seal-clubbing whackos that live in Igloos.

We all know they live in Log cabins :), have horses named Horse, and girlfriends named Nell.

Even in rural areas, voicing your opinion does not necessarily lead to violence and hate. Not like living in Liverpool and rooting for the Mancs. (again, a stereotype - not all Mancs are bad).
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Post by miir »

Maybe you should ask yourself why those American stereotypes exist in the first place.
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Post by Fizzlewhip »

Having lived in Europe and England for over 6 years, I can tell you exactly where it comes from.

Television.

I can't tell you how many times people were completely surprised by my education, once they found out I was from a rural town in the Midwest. And this came from educated "socialites" in London.

Stereotypes abound, and are carried on by the media. It affects not only Europeans, but the entire world.

What is the average American's opinion on any other country? What do they think the people are like? Why do they have this opinion? <----Television and movies.

What is the Average European opinion of American? What do they think the people are like? Why do they have this opinion? <-----Television and Movies.

How many Europeans think Americans are "Cowboys" (and no, I don't mean the kind that ride horses... I mean the kind that think they can do it all, and know it all - ala Independence day and other films like that). During the six years I lived in Europe, there wasn't a day that went by that I did not have to combat that stereotype. Each day, I left people amazed that I wasn't a know-it-all, do-it-my-way ass. The only way to combat this was by example.
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Post by miir »

The only way to combat this was by example
It wouldn't hurt if Dubya followed that good advice.
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Post by Forthe »

Fizzlewhip for me it is how the US government (most notably republicans) uses patriotism to silence the people.

Look at the dixy chicks as an extreme example (and dumb). If the same thing happened in Canada nobody would give a fuck. I don't think anyone would even be overly surprised by such a thing.

Look at the approval ratings for the war before and after the patriotism card was played (much more subtle but much more dangerous). The whole you are unpatriotic if you don't support the war because that means you don't support the troops line that people are forced to bow to. It isn't even a logical statement that is easily debated but the preasure to defend one's patriotism doesn't allow for debate. You tow the line or else.

Of course this would never work unless you have a massive force of dumb sheep willing to *enforce* patriotism.
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