The importance of perception

[Lalanae]

From: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... slims_dc_4

Muslims at the Pentagon (news - web sites) are incensed by what they say is an insensitive invitation to evangelist Rev. Franklin Graham, who has called Islam an "evil religion," to preach on Good Friday at the Defense Department.

Criticism by Muslims at the Pentagon is embarrassing for the Bush administration, which has gone to great lengths to try to convince Arab nations the U.S. invasion of Iraq (news - web sites) was aimed at toppling Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) and not at the Islamic faith.

Graham angered Muslims after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks when he called Islam a "very evil and wicked religion."

What moron thought it was a good idea to invite Franklin Graham to speak at a government-sanctioned event? Stupid sloppy administration...

[Dregor Thule]

What moron thought it was a good idea to invite Franklin Graham to speak at a government-sanctioned event? Stupid sloppy administration...

Too many morons to choose from!

[kyoukan]

I think it is fairly evident what this administration's opinion of Islam is.. It doesn't really matter how many PR agencies they hire to try and make it look otherwise.

[Voronwë]

i'm not sure it is that so much as the Republican party is hamstrung by the Christian Coalition and similar groups. They get such a huge boost at the ballot box from this organization that they have to pander to their desires even when it isnt politically expedient to do so.

that is my take on it anyway. but i would also be surprised if this story got much play in the Arab media.

[Dregor Thule]

I heard Bush say he thought Islam was pretty neat because their prophet could float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.

[Acies]

I heard Bush say he thought Islam was pretty neat because their prophet could float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.

ROFL

[kyoukan]

and he's so pretty.

[Lalanae]

Out of all the blowholes they could have picked, they chose the one who specifically said highly offensive public statements about Muslims after 9/11. Its too stupid not to be deliberate.

[Metanis]

You guys are funny. How about us Christians start dictating to Muslim congregations about who leads their worship?

[Acies]

You guys are funny. How about us Christians start dictating to Muslim congregations about who leads their worship?

Who is us?
Christianity is a blight on the earth from a death toll stand point.
God
Hate Christianity, mostly because the arrogant motherfuckers that actually dein to provide religious justice are bigger propaganda pushers than Hitler.

[kyoukan]

You guys are funny. How about us Christians start dictating to Muslim congregations about who leads their worship?

Or illegally removing middle eastern governments and replacing them with your own?

[Kaldaur]

Actually, it wasn't "illegal". Bush did it, and he's not in jail. He just got a clear message that he can do it again, and no one will do anything. Hitler taking the Sudetenland wasn't "illegal", because no one stopped him.

I am not comparing Bush to Hitler. Just pointing out a similar situation.

[Acies]

Actually, it wasn't "illegal". Bush did it, and he's not in jail. He just got a clear message that he can do it again, and no one will do anything. Hitler taking the Sudetenland wasn't "illegal", because no one stopped him.

I am not comparing Bush to Hitler. Just pointing out a similar situation.

A good comparison.

[Neziroth]

Or illegally removing middle eastern governments and replacing them with your own?

shit if they had the chance to hit us they would in a heartbeat and you know it, there wasn't much other choice except to sit around and wait until they COULD hit us, and DID hit us with a nuke before we went after them.

edit: gammer, it still sucks. sue me

[Lalanae]

It amazes me how stupid some of you are.

I don't care if you agree with the war or not, inviting Franklin Graham to speak at the Dept of Defense was gives the impression that the White House supports Graham in his claims that Muslims are evil. If Bush was smart he'd be VERY careful about involving religion in government affairs and alienating any more Muslims than he already has.

Edit: And Neziroth, now that we've pissed off about 20+ other countries by invading Iraq, should we invade them all too? They could have nukes one day!!1!!11 OMG WE R GONNA DIE!1!!!1 Fucking get a grip on your fear man. Iraq couldn't feed a herd of donkeys much less get a nuke together and figure out a way to bomb us with it.

[Mezzmor]

Show me just one example that the Muslim faith is a faith of peace.

Don't give me some bullshit line out of the Koran. I want an example.

I look at the middle east, and all I see are people fighting one another. Sunni vs. Shiite. Kurd vs. Sunni. Fundamentalist leaders that expect the entire world to live in the damned 12th century forever. A network of fifedoms with an elite ruling class that allows no freedom at all, and that cares nothing about the rules and laws that they apply to their people, because they are above them.

I have traveled there, extensively when I was younger. I have seen all of their bullshit firsthand. All based in intolerance and the hatred of Christianity and Judaism, mostly wrapped up in jealousy that the western civilizations have so much in the way of money and technology. All while their leaders keep the natural resource wealth among themselves, keep the populace enslaved, and preach fundamentalist extreme garbage and don't follow one damned word of the rhetoric they preach. While the common people are not even allowed to import satellite TV equipment, the leaders who make those rules were watching Dallas every friday fucking night on CBS on their satellite TV's. While they are hanging and stoning women for not dressing "properly" or for even LOOKING at a male, they hold their wild orgy fuckfest parties on their private yachts or their bungalows on their private islands. While they eat the finest food money can buy, mostly western fare, their citizens eat what the leadership allows to be put on the shelves. Have any of you truly seen the living standards that the average person lives in over there? There is no middle class. You are either royalty or you are scum. There is truly nothing in between.

Most of these so-called Mulsim leaders would make Jimmy and Tammy Faye look like saints.

All the examples I see are the middle eastern governments that give money to the families of suicide bombers that kill innocent civilians. I see examples of muslims celebrating the loss of 3000 american lives. I see a punishment system that makes our prisons and execution record in the USA look like a resort hotel system with just a slightly high rate of accidental pool drownings. I see school systems that begin preaching the hatred of Jews and Christians as early as age 3.

Sadly, it all comes down to this. Their so called leaders opress their people, make the commoners live in 12th century conditions, and basically deprive the average person of basic freedoms we take for granted here, all the while preaching that it the great satan, America, and the Jews, who are stealing their wealth and keeping them down.

Show me otherwise. Please. I have an open mind. But don't sit their with this hate-america rhetoric about us being Muslim haters because that is pure bullshit. I didn't wake up one day and listen to the radio and hear Rush Limbaugh telling me how evil Muslims are. I wasn't taught in school about Muslims being the great satan, and my dad sure as hell didn't tell me to go beat the hell out of every Muslim kid in my class. Nobody here in America has a general hatred of Muslims (besides maybe a few inbred rednecks) and nobody in America realistically wishes to see the entire middle east turned into a radioactive dustbin.

[Adex_Xeda]

Hah, Well that made the crickets chirp.

[Neziroth]

Lalanae

I bet you were one of the first people to bitch that the government was doing nothing but thumbing their ass after september 11th

[kyoukan]

Hah, Well that made the crickets chirp.

Yeah I'm speechless at the unbelievable amount of racism and ethnic stereotyping in that post too.

The sad part is you people will buy it hook line and sinker.

[kyoukan]

Lalanae

I bet you were one of the first people to bitch that the government was doing nothing but thumbing their ass after september 11th

Yeah invading Iraq was a really clever way to get terrorists to stop attacking you.

[Akaran_D]

Well said, Mezzmor.

[Lynxe]

Show me just one example that the Muslim faith is a faith of peace.

Not that I disagree with your assessment of that religion Mezz, but I'd love for someone to show me one example of any wide-spread religion that has never used thier believes/power to commit, justify or hide acts of violence, murder, abuse, racism or war.

Christianity? I remember kids getting the shit kicked out of them by priests and nuns for forgeting thier uniforms or not being able to afford books for a class. I can look back through my own history and see entire families killing thier neighbours because they were different religions. I know schools who refused to teach children because they were jewish regardless that there were no other schools they could attend. I know of teachers who lost jobs because they got a *gasp* divorce. I went to school with kids who were brutally sexually abused by the very priests who were supposed to protect and raise them. "Christians" covered it up or blamed the children for YEARS. Does that make us "Christians" any better?

Human history is a story of war and violence in the name of organized religion. No thank you. I'll stick with "right and wrong" for beliefs, while living the best way I can.

[Neziroth]

Obviously sitting around waiting for people to come attack us - being paid by countries like iraq - is a flawless strategy.

[Adex_Xeda]

Now now Kyo,

Nothing in my post up there supports your assumptions of me.

I have my own opinion of the Mid East that you haven't heard.

[Lalanae]

Lalanae

I bet you were one of the first people to bitch that the government was doing nothing but thumbing their ass after september 11th

Well you would lose that bet. Unlike you, I'm not so wrapped up in fear of Muslims that I'd cry for the blood of their people.

I also have yet to see definitive proof that Iraq supported bin Laden (which is a topic that has been beat to death on this board, so don't waste your breath) and still am waiting for that arsenal of WMDs that Bush & Powell swore to the world they had intelligence on and has magically disappeared. Bush's public agenda has gone from WMDs to "liberating the Iraqi people" all the while suggesting that Hussein supported al Quaeda with no proof. I think Bush, encountering embarrassment when he couldn't find bin Laden as fast as he thought to appease the fearful American public (fear is our greatest commodity in the US), used the Iraq situation as a way to make idiots like yourself (the ones who are most afraid of the unseen threats Georgie Jr. promises are there) feel like the US govt is doing something to help the situation.

So no, I thought going after bin Laden was the appropriate action. You, like many of the ignorants of the US, still somehow believe Hussein is responsible for 9-11. That's what Bush was banking on. I hope you feel safer at night when mommy tucks you in. Sadly, Bush's actions have annoyed or pissed off the greater part of the world, so anti-American sentiment is higher than ever.

I'm not even going to address Mezzmor beyond saying that I have known many Muslims and they all have offered a sharp contrast to the bigotry, ignorance, and antagonist attitudes of people like you.

[Fallanthas]

Hussein was not responsible for 9-1-1.

Muslims were not responsible for 9-1-1.


Extremism made that awful day happen. In this case, Middle Eastern extremism. It's no more valid to label the religion for this act than calling every Irishman a cocktail-throwing orangeman.

You cannot hope to defeat an enemy you cannot even define.

[Mezzmor]

Kyoukan:

Put your money where your mouth is. Prove me to be an intolerant racist and show me all the love and tolerance in the Muslim world. Until then, and until you have a clue about who I am or how I live my life and exactly what my values are, kindly STFU with the racist labeling rhetoric.

Lynxe:

You bet. We could open up an entire new thread on the violence, opression, hatred and extreme views that can be found in all sorts of flavors of Christianity. Lets piss some more people off. Lets talk about the last Episcopalian service I went to with a friend of mine where I had to listen to some preacher tell me how evil gays are. We could discuss the SDA wedding I went to yesterday where the preacher preached his view of the 14th century-like place of women in the home. We could discuss the pedophilia problem among a small number of catholic priests. And then of course, we could discuss what started this thread in the first place.
We could go back centuries to the Crusades and discuss the barbaric campaigns during this period.

Or how about this. People finally take a step back and start honestly questioning whether the shit they are being fed by their religious leaders really clicks inside them. When I start hearing some Muslims IN THE MIDDLE EAST preaching tolerance and understanding, then I will take a different view of the Muslim faith. Same goes with the jackasses I mentioned above. When I start hearing our own religious leaders preaching tolerance, forgiveness, and love for our fellow man, no matter who that man or woman may be, I might even start entertaining the idea of church services. But until the flock gets rid of the shepherds that are spewing the hatred on all sides, nothing will change.

[Dregor Thule]

Would the Muslim's of the VV community please speak up so we can know just which ones out there are such evil people? Please??

lol@mezzmor...

[Neziroth]

Lalanae

I bet you were one of the first people to bitch that the government was doing nothing but thumbing their ass after september 11th

Well you would lose that bet. Unlike you, I'm not so wrapped up in fear of Muslims that I'd cry for the blood of their people.

Show me where I brought muslims into this. Between you and me, you're the one who dragged them into the argument. Obviously you believe muslims are responsible since you brought it up...

As for your comments about Hussein, whether or not he was responsible for 9-11 IS up in the air, granted. But if, given the chance, he would have jumped in on the plan. And he would in the future too. We all know he hates the US, we all know what kind of a leader his is, and we've all learned what happens when you leave a leader like that unchecked.

If that's a path you'd rather have taken, then I'm sorry you're unhappy. Maybe you should try living in a country like that sometime.
I bet you'd like it better than america since all you do is whine about how shitty our government is.

[Acies]

Hussein was not responsible for 9-1-1.

Muslims were not responsible for 9-1-1.


Extremism made that awful day happen. In this case, Middle Eastern extremism. It's no more valid to label the religion for this act than calling every Irishman a cocktail-throwing orangeman.

You cannot hope to defeat an enemy you cannot even define.

Well said.
Also, who here is Christian and wants me to PROVE (using Mezzmor's logic, of course) their evil!!1!
How about Jewish?
How about Buddhist?
How about Shintoist?

People have used religon for centuries to commit unspeakable crimes.
However, if you think that because a few Muslims attacked the U.S., somehow all of them must be evil, then techincally (especially if you are Christian) you deserve far worse than you preach they do.

You know, maybe, just maybe, many of them were programed by their respective goverment/leader/officals to hate the U.S., due to the many wrongs they view we have commited against them and their way of life. Much like how you view them, being so trained.

Nice to be able to understand exactly how they feel, isn't it?

[kyoukan]

Kyoukan:

Put your money where your mouth is. Prove me to be an intolerant racist and show me all the love and tolerance in the Muslim world.

haha, what do you want me to do? show you a peaceful muslim?

[Metanis]

Show me just one example that the Muslim faith is a faith of peace.

Don't give me some bullshit line out of the Koran. I want an example.
...

Great post Mezzmor!

[Lalanae]

Lalanae

I bet you were one of the first people to bitch that the government was doing nothing but thumbing their ass after september 11th

Well you would lose that bet. Unlike you, I'm not so wrapped up in fear of Muslims that I'd cry for the blood of their people.

Show me where I brought muslims into this. Between you and me, you're the one who dragged them into the argument. Obviously you believe muslims are responsible since you brought it up...

what kind of second grade logic do you live by? Oh yeah, I believe Muslims are responsible just because I said the word "Muslim," despite me saying everything to the contrary. Go back and read your posts. Read the whole thread in fact, since you think it had nothing to do with Muslims.

As for your comments about Hussein, whether or not he was responsible for 9-11 IS up in the air, granted. But if, given the chance, he would have jumped in on the plan. And he would in the future too. We all know he hates the US, we all know what kind of a leader his is, and we've all learned what happens when you leave a leader like that unchecked.

I've already told you what I think of your paranoid stance and its no use for me to reiterate. HUSSEIN IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR 9-11, that is NOT "up in the air."

If that's a path you'd rather have taken, then I'm sorry you're unhappy. Maybe you should try living in a country like that sometime.
I bet you'd like it better than america since all you do is whine about how shitty our government is.

I take back what I said earlier second-grade carries too much finesse for you. Yeah, ALL I DO is whine about the government. I sit here all day waiting for you to post so I can whine some more. God forbid someone thinks for themselves and isn't a brainless sheep like yourself.

But yeah, great reply. Can I get a nanny-nanny-boo-boo?

[Forthe]

Show me just one example that the Muslim faith is a faith of peace.

Don't give me some bullshit line out of the Koran. I want an example.
...

Great post Mezzmor!

When Metanis is agreeing with you it is time to re-evaluate your views.

[Mezzmor]

Kyoukan:

Put your money where your mouth is. Prove me to be an intolerant racist and show me all the love and tolerance in the Muslim world.

haha, what do you want me to do? show you a peaceful muslim?

I still ask anyone to give me any link to any column, news clip, multicast interview, whatever, of any prominent Muslim in the middle east that has preached in any context religious tolerance, tolerance for Israel and the right of the Jews to exist, tolerance for the western civilizations, tolerance for Christianity, just some sort of religious and ethnic tolerance.

For those of you who still don't get my point, I will put it in even plainer terms.

It is the leaders of these Mulsim countries in the middle east, and the religious factional leaders, that impoverish and enslave their own people and then blame the great satan and the Jews for it, and teach their people how to hate America and hate the Jews.

If the people really did not believe this garbage and were really tolerant and peaceful, wouldn't they replace these leaders with more tolerant and moderate people that held peace in high regard?

Think about this. We call this extremism. Can we assume then, that extreme would mean 20% of the population? So you want me to assume that 80% of the middle eastern Muslims do not believe we should drive the Jews into sea, do not perceive every Christian as an infidel? 80% of milddle eastern Muslims believe in democracy, representative government, the right to freedom of speech?

I ask again, if this is the case, WHY HAVE THEIR LEADERS NOT BEEN REPLACED?

If 80% of middle eastern Muslims are religiously tolerant, who put Ayatollah Khomeini in power and why were our people held hostage for 444 days?

If 80% of middle eastern Muslims are religiously tolerant, why do they permit their leaders to give money to descendants of suicide bombers who kill innocent Israelis?

If 80% of middle eastern Mulsims believe in democracy, why is almost every government in the middle east a monarchy or dictatorship?

If 80% of the middle eastern Muslims thought that 9-11 was abhorrent, why haven't Osama Bin Laden or Mullah Omar been turned in?

[kyoukan]

I could provide evidence of thousands of moderate muslim clerics who preach tolerance and peace. Can't help you on Israel though, since they are basically sitting on probably the second most holy site to the Islamic faith and illegally occupying arab land they seized during the war in 1967, you probably won't find many arabs that wouldn't like to see the jews fuck off.

To say that every single muslim leader religious or otherwise is a violent fundamentalist hypocrite is absolutely 100% no different than saying every Christian leader is a lying sack of shit like Jerry Falwell or Billy Graham. Absolutely no different. You are taking a well known stereotype and using it as a basis to label an entire culture. And to top it all off, you are also using it as a launch pad for declaring your personal expertise on the topic.

[Acies]

Kyoukan:

Put your money where your mouth is. Prove me to be an intolerant racist and show me all the love and tolerance in the Muslim world.

haha, what do you want me to do? show you a peaceful muslim?

I still ask anyone to give me any link to any column, news clip, multicast interview, whatever, of any prominent Muslim in the middle east that has preached in any context religious tolerance, tolerance for Israel and the right of the Jews to exist, tolerance for the western civilizations, tolerance for Christianity, just some sort of religious and ethnic tolerance.

For those of you who still don't get my point, I will put it in even plainer terms.

It is the leaders of these Mulsim countries in the middle east, and the religious factional leaders, that impoverish and enslave their own people and then blame the great satan and the Jews for it, and teach their people how to hate America and hate the Jews.

If the people really did not believe this garbage and were really tolerant and peaceful, wouldn't they replace these leaders with more tolerant and moderate people that held peace in high regard?

Think about this. We call this extremism. Can we assume then, that extreme would mean 20% of the population? So you want me to assume that 80% of the middle eastern Muslims do not believe we should drive the Jews into sea, do not perceive every Christian as an infidel? 80% of milddle eastern Muslims believe in democracy, representative government, the right to freedom of speech?

I ask again, if this is the case, WHY HAVE THEIR LEADERS NOT BEEN REPLACED?

If 80% of middle eastern Muslims are religiously tolerant, who put Ayatollah Khomeini in power and why were our people held hostage for 444 days?

If 80% of middle eastern Muslims are religiously tolerant, why do they permit their leaders to give money to descendants of suicide bombers who kill innocent Israelis?

If 80% of middle eastern Mulsims believe in democracy, why is almost every government in the middle east a monarchy or dictatorship?

If 80% of the middle eastern Muslims thought that 9-11 was abhorrent, why haven't Osama Bin Laden or Mullah Omar been turned in?

The same reason why if so many people hate Bush why hasn't he been on the recieving end of a bullet. Fear.

You see, you take a tolerant and peaceful people and ask them to remove the butchers in their society, it is like asking us that do not like Bush to remove him from his position. You are asking the masses to die, en masse, against the few who do not have compuctions against murder or rape.
Just because someone claims to be true to their religion, does not mean they are.
Prove to me YOU are a peaceful, tolerant person because you are whatever religion you are. And do not spout me some lines from that bullshit book of yours (Bible, etc) just give me proof!

I guess the point I am getting at is this:
A religion promotes a state of being. People fall short of that state of peace, not the religion that tries to uphold such ideals.
The bible encourages peace, prosperity and a valued life. So does the Koran. However, if you say that because a few in power let that power go way over their heads, that you would be willing to condem an entire religion and all of those people attempting to lead a moral and true life, then you sir need to stfu.

I got one for for you.

Igit.

[Neziroth]

you're calling me a second grader? why? because my opinions don't match yours?

You're resorting to personal flames, do you have no argument? All you've done is said "you're wrong and TAKL LIKE A SECoND GRADER!!11"


As for the whole muslim thing.. i never mentioned them. The thread may have... i have not.

I've mentioned iraq, I've mentioned hussein, and hinted toward bin-laden. The fact that they're muslims and were mentioned in my posts is purely coincidental, I assure you.

[Braxter]

Between you and me, you're the one who dragged them into the argument. Obviously you believe muslims are responsible since you brought it up...

No, she's saying your logic is second grade because of this quote. Probably because it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE WHATSOEVER, but I may be wrong.

[Lalanae]

you're calling me a second grader? why? because my opinions don't match yours?

You're resorting to personal flames, do you have no argument? All you've done is said "you're wrong and TAKL LIKE A SECoND GRADER!!11"


As for the whole muslim thing.. i never mentioned them. The thread may have... i have not.

I've mentioned iraq, I've mentioned hussein, and hinted toward bin-laden. The fact that they're muslims and were mentioned in my posts is purely coincidental, I assure you.

I called you a second grader because you have the logical capability of one, as I explained. Opinions are one thing, ability to argue your opinion is another.

[Salis]

Obviously sitting around waiting for people to come attack us - being paid by countries like iraq - is a flawless strategy.

No link between Saddam and any major terrorist organisation. Another sign of how much bullshit gets accepted as truth after five layers of ambiguity... Dude, the U.S. isn't under fucking fire, god dammit look at Europe for the last hundred years, we'd incurred tens times the amount of international vendetta's (European Imperialism) and received many times the terrorist casualties.

Believe it or not, the world isn't out to FUCK america, there's a certain segment that's kind of pissed off at the way the NATO alliance (with the US as a leader) has played OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of developing nations as key-stones in a cold war strategy. And personally I don't blame them. I think the shit we've pulled off in the last 60 years is only slighty less disgraceful that the heresy of slavery. To win peoples minds you don't play revenge for what they perceive you've done, you play diplomacy and reconciliation.

[miir]

Obviously sitting around waiting for people to come attack us - being paid by countries like iraq - is a flawless strategy.

Are you're a fucking retard?
I'm serious.
I find it very hard to believe someone without a mental handicap can be that stupid.

[Adex_Xeda]

/yawn

Why bother to talk shop when few are honestly listening?


Demand proof,
Ignore it once it appears,
Call the bringer of news outside your worldview a poopy head.


This isn't sharing ideas.

This is a ping-ping game of prefab monologues.

[Neziroth]

By

Between you and me, you're the one who dragged them into the argument. Obviously you believe muslims are responsible since you brought it up...

I only meant that I never mentioned muslims. I never said it was them, I never even HINTED that I blamed them. I said that because after my post, I get hit with the bullshit that i'm afraid of every one of them.

I was only pointing out that Lalanae brought muslims, as a group, into our little debate. Not me. To me, calling everyone who supports the war in iraq and the war in afghanistan a "muslim fearing drone" or some shit is JUST as bad as discriminating against them in the first place.

I guess you guys didn't read it the way it sounded in my head

[miir]

As for your comments about Hussein, whether or not he was responsible for 9-11 IS up in the air

Up in the air?
Saddam Hussein has noting to do with 9/11 or Al Qaeda.
There has not been one single shread of evidence that provides even the weakest of links.

But if, given the chance, he would have jumped in on the plan.

Saddam Hussein is not a stupid man.
Do you seriously think he would risk angering someone who already despises him? Why would he intentionally and openly anger a country that has the firepower to turn his country into a crater?

And he would in the future too.

You make this statement based on what?
Saddam Hussein is a dictator, not a terrorist... despite what your government tells you.

We all know he hates the US

How do you know he 'hates' the US?
Has he ever attacked the US?
Has he ever invaded the US?
Has he ever openly threatened the US?

You're so brainwashed by your government, it's embarrasing.
It pains me to read your mindless parroting of 'the govenrment line'.
Are you really so weakminded that you can't even think for yourself?

[Fallanthas]

No link between Saddam and any major terrorist organisation.

Bull


Shit.


Links to 911? No.


Links to terrorist organizations? You damn betcha.


Keep those blinders tight. I'm sure they make the world a much simpler place to understand.

[miir]

The only credible terrorist link found was that Saddam was awarding money to families of Palestinian suicide bombers.


I wouldn't exactly call those 'major terrorist organisations'.
Salis probably used the term 'major' where he should have used 'international'.

The USA has more links to international terrorist groups than Saddam Hussein. It used to be common practice for the US government to 'train' and fund terrorist groups... and I don't doubt that they still do.

[Adex_Xeda]

Associated Press
http://www.universitydaily.net/vnews/di ... e425c7ec40

Frontline
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... odada.html

Irish Examiner
http://breaking.tcm.ie/2003/04/16/story95642.html

Associated Press
http://www.intelmessages.org/Messages/N ... s/826.html


etc. etc. "Shreds" of evidence are out there. Given time they'll be so loud most naysayers will forced to change denial tactics.

[Crav]

Wow you brought up something very interesting Mezzmor, it actually got me to think on how little I know of the modern Muslim world. Most of my knowledge about the near east is from renaissance and before.

However, the question you ask is a bit flawed. You asked for proof that Islam is a "faith" of peace, however, you eliminate the source of the faith(the Qur'an) . I believe that the request you were asking for was for us to give you proof that the modern institution of Islam and the governmental entities that those institutions control are peaceful. It would be very difficult to prove any institution to be completely peaceful especially if they are associated or in control of a state. Governments were created to use the resources of many to advance the ambitions of the constituents represented by the government. Some times it was the will of the collective people, but many times it was and is the will of a few that directs the government. It is hard to look at the actions of the different institutions in this world and characterize them as peaceful, all institutions look towards spreading their beliefs to as many people as they can.

If you are truly interested in learning about modern day Muslim politics then I would suggest that you read "Religion and State: The Muslim Approach to Politics" by L. Carl Brown. I myself have not read it yet, but it appears to be a very good scholarly read on the subject. L. Carl Brown is Garrett Professor in Foreign Affairs Emeritus at Princeton University.

[miir]

1) Made reference to the PLO which is not exactly an international terrorist orginization. Saddam openly supported thier cause.

2) An interview with a former Iraqi "Army Captain" 11 years removed from the Iraqi military... and from his own description, he was little more than an administrative clerk. Were his credentials verified or was he just a Saddam hating expatriate looking to make a quick buck on an 'exclusive' interview?

3) See #1

4) This 'article' is a post on a conservative message forum. Nice facts.


Is that the best you can come up with?
A two year old interview with an Iraqi defector and an already known link to Palestinian terrorist groups?


There's nothing in those 'shreds' that ties Saddam with any international terrorist groups. I have seen so many bullshit 'interviews' with Iraqi defectors claiming to be former high ranking military officials that I treat their testimony as fiction. If they had verifiable and accurate information, the CIA would not let them speak to the press.

Given time they'll be so loud most naysayers will forced to change denial tactics

The point is moot.
The 'purpose' for the Iraq invasion shifted so many times... when it finally landed on a purpose that was palatable to the American public (liberating the Iraqi people) , they stuck with it and stopped focusing on claims like WMDs and links to terrorism.