Epiphany

What do you think about the world?
Post Reply
vn_Tanc
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2398
Joined: July 12, 2002, 12:32 pm
Location: UK

Epiphany

Post by vn_Tanc »

I was thinking about this war last night and I had something of an epiphany.
Here it is :P

Up until now I've been arguing under the assumption that the US's claims of wanting to disarm Iraq were true. After berating you all for swallowing what your administration is telling you I fell into the same trap. Silly me.
On the morning before the war I caught a news story that said, basically, "even if Saddam goes into exile the US army will still enter Iraq (i.e. invade) to search for WMD etc etc blah". And suddenly the penny dropped. When I then read a story that basically the "threat to the region" presented by Saddam was, in fact, a threat to Israel: Saddam's nuclear weapon plans were to either drive one into Jordan on a flatbad or sail it to Haifa, Israel and detonate it. How could I have been so stupid as to overlook this?
I really don't know.

Naturally this leaves the US in the position of having to remove Saddam from power. That was the initial plan and the one that is being carried out now. All the rest of the inspections, wrangling, diplomacy and acrimony has been a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME because the US wasn't the slightest bit interested in the first place. I guess I was too busy trying to educate the swarm of tards here in how to think for themselves and this notion slipped by me.

So basically the US, after bringing Saddam to power, arming him, almost destroying him, letting him off the hook and then ignoring him decided it was time to clean up it's mess. Good. Nobody can disagree that this evil scumbag should be removed. Shit he shouldn't have even been there in the first place.
Of course the timing and approach have been completely wrong but this is a cowboy administration full of ignorant absolutists who seem to have finally tipped over the edge after a lifetime of building the world's biggest arsenal only to be robbed of their biggest target 10-odd years ago.

So now I agree with this war as long as I take a sufficently short-term view of things.

I still believe the following though:
1) The manipultion of public views through propoganda and outright lies is disgusting beyond measure. The fact that it has worked so thoroughly is depressing.
2) The US is entirely responsible for the suffering of the Iraqi people for over 30 years for putting this monster in power and giving him the means to stay there.
3) With a more considered approach UN support for changing the regime in Iraq could have been gained but bullying, carping, insulting and LYING to the people of the world is not how to get these things done.
4) The reasons for leaving Saddam in power 12 years ago when we had our hands around his throat should come out.
5) You assholes who think war is cool and should be used on anyone who looks at you funny should be made to fight one and then forever prevented from breeding.
6) The US has, I believe, greatly misjudged the longterm effects of this war but time will tell.
7) When fighting terrorism, giving the terrorists another cause celebre to fight for is bloody stupid and that's precisely what this cack-handed, hastily started war has given them.
8) The utter hypocrisy of the US administration and it's stance towards Iraq shames the US and will for a long time. He's been in power something like 34 years and been a monster for all 34 of those. Yet for all but 12 of those 34 years nobody gave 2 shits for the Iraqi people, the torture victims, the 'disappeared'. I'd wager the same tub-thumping conservatives that scream "PEACENIK" rather than engaging their brains would have declared such concern for the oppressed in other countries as "bleeding heart liberal eyewash".
9) When you're looking for the support of the world in cleaning up your shit, insulting everyone is a fucking poor way of going about it.
10) Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons doesn't make you the good guys.
11) Doing the right thing when the wrong is your damn fault in the first place also doesn't count.
12) Yes, Iran is your fault too. Go look it up.

So, for the help my country is giving yours in cleaning up this shitty mess of your own making - you're welcome. But I can't blame other nations for reacting less favourably when your leaders have acted like such a pack of total wankers.

Now it's on and I'm through arguing with the braindead. I just hope for a speedy victory and as few casualties as possible on all sides. And I still fear for the future - now more than ever.
Somali
Star Farmer
Star Farmer
Posts: 480
Joined: March 18, 2003, 1:37 pm
Gender: Male
Location: The Land of "Fundy Retards"

Post by Somali »

You silly English dolt...

Yoiu haven't a leg to stand on as far as people "causing problems" and then going to clean them up. Your little Nation is the one responsible for causing the problems with Israel in the early 1900's. If we are going to point fingers at people and say "This shite is your fault " then lets think about how many problems putting Israel back in created.. Wow that was a cluster now wasn't it... I'm not going to get into who should really have that land. Truth be told, if we are going on religious premise.. then it should be everyones and we should quit bickering over it. But England is the one that spearheaded the clusterfook of putting them back in the middle east. So, go fix your problem and all the other issues that are linked to it in the middle east you pretentious english numbnut.
User avatar
masteen
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8197
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:40 pm
Gender: Mangina
Location: Florida
Contact:

Post by masteen »

Somali: check your PM's!
User avatar
miir
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 11501
Joined: July 3, 2002, 3:06 pm
XBL Gamertag: miir1
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Post by miir »

When I then read a story that basically the "threat to the region" presented by Saddam was, in fact, a threat to Israel: Saddam's nuclear weapon plans were to either drive one into Jordan on a flatbad or sail it to Haifa, Israel and detonate it. How could I have been so stupid as to overlook this?
How could you be so stupid to overlook the fact that nearly every Muslim would love to see the Jews get the fuck out of the middle east.

How could you be so stupid to ignore the fact that Iraq has no semblance of any nuclear program.

How could you be so stupid to ignore that other 'jew hating' countries in the middle east have admitted to and are openly persuing nuclear weapons.

How could you be so stupid to ignore the immediate geographical proximity of roughly 100 million arabs to 6 million jews?



The middle east is under constant scrutiny via sattelite monitoring, inteligence and military pressence that transporting a nuclear device from Iraq to Israel would not go unnoticed. Nuclear devices put off very distinct radiation detectable from orbit.
User avatar
Cartalas
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4364
Joined: July 3, 2002, 2:39 pm
Location: Kyoukan's Mouth

Post by Cartalas »

Who opened the Tool Box and let Tanc out. :lol:
vn_Tanc
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2398
Joined: July 12, 2002, 12:32 pm
Location: UK

Post by vn_Tanc »

How could you be so stupid to ignore the fact that Iraq has no semblance of any nuclear program.
Well that's why I said:
Saddam's nuclear weapon plans
Note the 'plans' on the end. That was his plan, should he acquire them.

As for this drivel:
Yoiu haven't a leg to stand on as far as people "causing problems" and then going to clean them up. Your little Nation is the one responsible for causing the problems with Israel in the early 1900's. If we are going to point fingers at people and say "This shite is your fault " then lets think about how many problems putting Israel back in created.. Wow that was a cluster now wasn't it... I'm not going to get into who should really have that land. Truth be told, if we are going on religious premise.. then it should be everyones and we should quit bickering over it. But England is the one that spearheaded the clusterfook of putting them back in the middle east. So, go fix your problem and all the other issues that are linked to it in the middle east you pretentious english numbnut.
Such a welter of misinformed ignorance is just staggering. Creation of Israel early 1900s? England alone? Point out the last time we installed a lunatic in charge of a country and furnished him with insane weapons?
Don't ever address me again you braindead shitstain.
User avatar
Aabidano
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4861
Joined: July 19, 2002, 2:23 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Florida

Post by Aabidano »

miir wrote:Nuclear devices put off very distinct radiation detectable from orbit.
Ummm, no.

Detecting one from 100 yards in open air would be a dubious claim. You could have one in your trunk, and other than via an x-ray machine, or possibly a probe directly contacting the vehicle and it won't be detectable.

Hence the current worry about containerized freight shipping, etc..
"Life is what happens while you're making plans for later."
vn_Tanc
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2398
Joined: July 12, 2002, 12:32 pm
Location: UK

Post by vn_Tanc »

User avatar
Aabidano
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4861
Joined: July 19, 2002, 2:23 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Florida

Post by Aabidano »

Naturally occurring particles, generated by cosmic rays, could be used to detect concealed nuclear material.
Emphasis mine.

Cool stuff, could be useful at some point in the future.
"Life is what happens while you're making plans for later."
User avatar
KilornCloudwalker
Almost 1337
Almost 1337
Posts: 600
Joined: July 3, 2002, 2:32 pm
Location: Louisiana
Contact:

Post by KilornCloudwalker »

vn_Tanc wrote:Such a welter of misinformed ignorance is just staggering. Creation of Israel early 1900s? England alone? Point out the last time we installed a lunatic in charge of a country and furnished him with insane weapons?
Don't ever address me again you braindead shitstain.

Does Maggie Thatcher count?
Kilorn Cloudwalker
62 Oracle - Retired
Somali
Star Farmer
Star Farmer
Posts: 480
Joined: March 18, 2003, 1:37 pm
Gender: Male
Location: The Land of "Fundy Retards"

Post by Somali »

To Mast:

I cjhecked the PM's but my user acct is still osed and I cant send any


To the silly british twit:
Such a welter of misinformed ignorance is just staggering. Creation of Israel early 1900s? England alone? Point out the last time we installed a lunatic in charge of a country and furnished him with insane weapons?
Don't ever address me again you braindead shitstain.
Ooh Braindead shitstain... thats a good one.. course there are obvious findamental problems with the phrase. The foremost being that last I checked people didn't secrete any form of sentient life from our arses. If that is not the case for you, please speak up. We should place you in a circus or the like if you can shite things that have brains.
At any rate, if you would like.. here is your pretty little link detailing english history where you put the jewish community back into Israel and caused all the problems that we have today in the region.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/events ... /78597.stm
And look its even from your little news source. It began in the early 1900's.

What I was actually trying to do was two fold. One was to bring your miserable little thread back to life, which I believe I accomplished. The other was that regardless of how bad things happen, pointing fingers at who starts them seldom fixes the issue. If I say the entire conflict in the middle east is England's fault for putting a jewish community in with a muslim community and taking away holy land from that muslim community, it does nothing to fix the actual problem.

That being said, yes, the US is who frucked up the situation in Iraq in the first place. It was done during the cold war when we were looking for a way to stop Russia from gaining additional ground in the Middle East. It was nothing more than a big pissing match between the US and Russia.

On a side note please continue to try to debate against me. Only next time attempt to make some sort of actual argument. I'm sure you have some semblance of intelligence. Its too bad that intelligent does not always yield knowledge.

If you would like some help, you could point out that the US gave a good deal of support to the zionist movement near the end of the establishment of the israeli state in 45 and then a continued support thereafter with miloitary technology. Of course this wouldn't change the fact that it was England who made the push to shove Jews back into a Palestinian run state in the first place...
User avatar
Acies
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1233
Joined: July 30, 2002, 10:55 pm
Location: The Holy city of Antioch

Post by Acies »

I still want to know where you got information on what "Saddam's plan" is and where can we see something like that?
Bujinkan is teh win!
Somali
Star Farmer
Star Farmer
Posts: 480
Joined: March 18, 2003, 1:37 pm
Gender: Male
Location: The Land of "Fundy Retards"

Post by Somali »

Mebbe it was part of a dream.
I hadn't heard anythoing of the like either. Whgere did that come from? Not saying it doesn't exist someplace I'd just like to read the article out of personal curiousity.
User avatar
Atokal
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1369
Joined: July 4, 2002, 12:23 am

Re: Epiphany

Post by Atokal »

vn_Tanc wrote: 5) You assholes who think war is cool and should be used on anyone who looks at you funny should be made to fight one and then forever prevented from breeding.

7) When fighting terrorism, giving the terrorists another cause celebre to fight for is bloody stupid and that's precisely what this cack-handed, hastily started war has given them.
.
Speaking to point number 5. Where in all this discussion have you read that anyone feels war is COOL. Rather those in favor of this conflict feel that it is a necessary EVIL. Once again name calling and no solutions from the liberal left. As to the breeding comment, old lame and tired and takes away from an otherwise well thought out dissertation.

Point 7: Are you serious? Really? Terrorists already make up just causes and have thousands in a roladex for easy use. One more on top of the pile will make no difference to the twisted way they view the world.


Cheers
Atokal
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.
Niccolo Machiavelli
vn_Tanc
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2398
Joined: July 12, 2002, 12:32 pm
Location: UK

Post by vn_Tanc »

That being said, yes, the US is who frucked up the situation in Iraq in the first place
Glad you spotted my original point there.
On a side note please continue to try to debate against me. Only next time attempt to make some sort of actual argument. I'm sure you have some semblance of intelligence. Its too bad that intelligent does not always yield knowledge.
I'm not the one who changed the subject from Iraq to the formation of Israel. I'm well aware of my country's role in that decision just as I'm aware of the US's - that would be the fact that made your initial assertion that it's all England's fault incorrect and that's the part I had a problem with. The initial decision may have been ours but the eventual creation of the state of Israel had more backing than that. That was mistake number one. Since then though, Israel has pretty much been a client state of the US and that's why the fundamentalists blame the US rather than anyone else for all the subsequent 'mistakes'.

The stuff about Saddam's plans? Sorry I've read so much stuff lately I can't remember where I read it. I believe it was from a quote from Ari Fleischer so that might help you search for it. I'm not saying I believe the story of such plans all I'm saying is that it's the story the US Intelligence Services choose to believe and is a good part of the reasons for the current war.
User avatar
Kaldaur
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1850
Joined: July 25, 2002, 2:26 am
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Kaldaur
Location: Illinois

Post by Kaldaur »

Could we please stop slinging around "left-wing liberal (insert swears and slurs)" please? The world was not created by the right-wing, and contrary to what many believe, left-wing people are not trying to bring an end to civilization. The world is run by an effort by both groups, working together, and slurring one group will not solve anything. If your greatest argument is that someone is "left-wing", then you've already lost.
User avatar
Fallanthas
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1525
Joined: July 17, 2002, 1:11 pm

Post by Fallanthas »

I've said before that a direct threat to the US isn't likely.


Even the threat of weapons being given to terrorist groups is a reach.

The real threats are;


a) Direct threats to US allies by Hussien

b) destabilization of an area the rest of the world is forced to do buisness in


Both are being rectified as we speak.
User avatar
Adelrune Argenti
Almost 1337
Almost 1337
Posts: 831
Joined: July 9, 2002, 4:22 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Post by Adelrune Argenti »

Honestly, the liberation of the people of Iraq is a side benefit. You cant morally fight for the sole person of liberating others. The main focus is making things safer for the US. Now that phrase has some pretty broad parameters. Taken literally, you would think it means to protect the US soil from an invasion. That is completely ridiculous. The more tangible meaning would be something along the lines of making the region safer and therefore protecting not only US citizens within the region, as well as citizens of other nationalities, in addition to making the region itself safer with the removal of Hussein.
There is OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of information we dont have and probably wont be released for years, if ever. We all know Saddam Hussein is a bad man and I dont think we necessarily need more info to tell us that.
Adelrune Argenti
Post Reply