I am sick of bailouts, let it all burn

[Avestan]

Sorry if any of you are autoworkers, but sometimes you need to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

[Spang]

We need more threads on this issue.

[Bubba Grizz]

Each time the proposition to force auto makers to make more fuel efficient vehicals came up it got shot down. Now they are begging for money so that they can retool to make fuel efficient cars. It's all confusing to me.

[Aardor]

Each time the proposition to force auto makers to make more fuel efficient vehicals came up it got shot down. Now they are begging for money so that they can retool to make fuel efficient cars. It's all confusing to me.

Not to mention, the auto companies in question have made sub-par products for at least 2 decades (more like 3), as well as continuing to ship jobs overseas. If I didn't think it would be more detrimental to our economy, I would agree with letting them burn to the ground. I also kind of feel that it is too late for the companies, even with a bailout. Now is not really a good time to bank on completely reinventing your company, and grab back customers from the competitors who make a much better product and are not having such financial troubles because the companies are not run by complete dolts.

[miir]

GM alone employs about 300k people.
Companies whose existence depends on GM employ millions.

If any major North American automaker were to go bankrupt and shut down, the repercussions would literally be catastrophic.

[Avestan]

The result would not be catastrophic. It would be catastrophic for unionized autoworkers who should not be making what they are right now anyway (sorry), but seeing these companies burn to ash is the only way new, viable competition will emerge to compete in a global economy.

Sometimes, you have to bite the bullet and start from scratch or you will just continue to prop up a faulty system that continues to spiral into inefficiency and obsolescence.

[Aslanna]

I think what miir was getting at is it's not just the 'unionized autoworkers' that would suffer. But also companies who manufacture and supply parts (and services) to any major automaker. Assuming those parts are even made in the US anymore. I'm sure something is!

[Sylvus]

I went to a funeral on Tuesday for a family friend who committed suicide, in part because his business was doing very badly. He ran a company that leased equipment to other companies (computers, etc) and his biggest customers were the auto companies and suppliers of auto companies.

If you're going to bail out airlines in the past and financial institutions more recently, I'm fine with them bailing out the auto companies as well. Not only would my already-hurting local economy be destroyed by GM going under, I think it would be pretty terrible for the country in general, perhaps the world.

[Spang]

Wouldn't that be...SOCIALISM?!

[Truant]

Not to mention all the companies that rely on fleets of these vehicles to operate their business. Utility companies use modified half and three quarter ton trucks with buckets. Construction and farm/ranch use a vast amount of larger trucks. There are many, many others (that I can't think of right now cause I can't wake up)

When you start going up and down the supply chain, the automakers are an integral part of a great many of our products we consume. It will noticeably affect all of us, not just union autoworkers.

I'm not saying i'm all for a bailout. It's their own stubborness and incompentence that got them in this hole. I just want to point out that it won't just be "overpaid union workers" who suffer if we don't bailout.

[Avestan]

Wouldn't that be...SOCIALISM?!

pretty much. yep.

[masteen]

I was against bailing out the financial companies, I am against bailing out the big 3. The fucking financial companies have done such wonderful things with our tax dollars like giving their boards big fat bonuses for sucking at their job and sending top executives on posh retreats, I honestly can't believe these fuckers have the balls to ask for handouts as well.

[Avestan]

I would argue that we will suffer much mroe in the long run by doing this bailout.

All these supporting characters deserve companies that can compete globally in the long term. By artificially proping them up, all we do is make their products less desirable. Instead of ripping off the bandaid, we are just delayed the inevitable and dying a slow painful death that will hurt the country and the economy much more in the long run than a complete and swift evisceration of the entire industry that could let new entrants fill the void in a way that makes sense.

Pull the band-aid! Don't die slow deaths!

[Gzette]

I think if the auto industry was allowed to fail, there would not be another auto industry in American in my lifetime.

[Bubba Grizz]

I believe that instead of bailing out these companies our government should buy them outright and appoint people to run them to earn a profit for the country instead. The people running them now failed. Horribly. That effects more than just their lives but the lives of millions. Granted I can see how this could be bad having the Government in charge of yet more but I'd be in favor of that over corporate greed in place.

Lets find another outlet besides taxes to earn money for the government. Buy Out not Bail Out.

[Knarlz]

Although I never worked for the big 3 dirrect, between 96-04, I did spend over 5 years at several GM sites as a contract controls engineer on the plant floors.

As such, I have witnessed several of the types of things that were sinking GM in good times and unless things change drastaclly, guarantee it's demise now.

1- legacy costs: Even though a contract employee, when at GM thermal divison ( air conditioners, radiators etc. ) I attended the real meetings and had access to the GM intraweb and also real numbers. In 2000, GM was putting $3,100 in every glove box due to retiree costs. Rules like 30 and out, retire after 30 years, reguardless of age, at full benifits including lifetime full medical for you AND spouce.
Not that GM really wanted to do that but the last full blown strike in 72 shut them down and they caved. ( Ford was just under 2k and Chrysler about 1.2k)

In a brillient move GM, 2 years ago at contract time passed this over to the UAW. in 2010 GM gives the UAW 15 billion $ and they run the pension. Truely genius, the only problem is as of today GM has 1.5 billion on hand and that will be gone in 6 weeks. This is why you see the union hand in hand with GM asking for bailout $.

2- pay scale: it was something like $25/hr production workers 32/hr skilled trades. Now life in an automotive plant isn't a bed of roses but niether is life outside where if you can find a production job here at $12 or skilled trades at $20, you are blessed.

3- hiring practices: inbread hiring- I saw the only new hires in 25 years at a plant. each current employee got 1 referal sheet, referals were ranked by how long your fambly was an employee, political infulence (managers relitive) , color,sex, and every politically correct factor concievable. Except.... education, fitness, experience,
One new hire was so fat, 400lb +, that they passed out walking down the hall and had to be carted off the first day on the job.
If an open hire was held at 2/3 the pay, the line would be miles long.

4- work rules: there were 34 different classes of skilled trades. To install a sensor on a machine ( on weekends since the line ran 24/5 )
I had to bring in an electrition, millwright, machine repareman and an operator at overtime for all day on a 15 minute job.


5- product mix-i.e. trucks! This was great till the gas thingie. If you were in the board meeting are you going to raise your hand and say we need less trucks that we make 10k profit on or more small cars that we lose 3k ea on. GM dose have a viable small car in europe and south americia ( not sure if they are good or not )

That list goes on and on.

They have done some good things also
Quality: at GM thermal when I got there defects were ok if 10 per 1000, the push was on to be world class and we met that at better than 25 per million.

Out of time so....

I am not in favor of a bail out or loan. However I do concider the big 3 ( or even knocked down to 2 ) as a national stragic resource.

To save it they should go bankrupt. In a planed manor. This opens up everything. All contracts, legacy costs and such are open for change.
This saved several airlines and should be used for the auto industry as well.

[Avestan]

I believe that instead of bailing out these companies our government should buy them outright and appoint people to run them to earn a profit for the country instead. The people running them now failed. Horribly. That effects more than just their lives but the lives of millions. Granted I can see how this could be bad having the Government in charge of yet more but I'd be in favor of that over corporate greed in place.

Lets find another outlet besides taxes to earn money for the government. Buy Out not Bail Out.

One of the only groups I have wholly less respect for than the people running the auto business are government officials running anything.

Unfortuantely, I would serisouly doubt their ability to make a profit running anything.

[Spang]

Wouldn't that be...SOCIALISM?!

pretty much. yep.

I wonder the percentage of people who are against "The Socialist" but support these bailouts...

[pyrella]

So here's 2 view points

Con: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/13/ ... index.html

Pro (very much so as it's Mich. Gov.): http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/13/ ... index.html

Those were the order I read them in. And unfortunately, the latter after reading the former doesn't actually endear me very much. In fact I get a very bad feeling akin to the same type of accusations levied against those who don't want to go to say...an unjust war - You don't support the country, or you are a traitor. Couple the first article with Knarlz's accounting of his time there - it makes me think they'd have more money and wouldn't need a bail out if their wasn't such rampant nepotism on top of poorly concealed union cronyism.

70$ average pay?

*Just* now getting into the alternative fuel 'fad' ? (The governor goes on to say the longer we aren't using alternative fuels, the more we're funding zee terrorists.)

Piece of shit crap cars that fucking suck. (Why are the big 3 usually the last 3 in...well, any rating of just about anything?)

Trying to pull housing market bullshit, ramping up production when there is no demand, and trying to artificially create demand. And then when presented with the bill for the services/materials/employees needed to make said stock, coming up short.


Sorry, this isn't the glory days of old where the streets of Detroit give inspiration and make us burst out in to song like Grease. It's a shit hole, making shitty products, where shitty people rip off others in the name of the American Dream. How long until we need to bail out hotdogs and apple pie?

Why can foreign car companies move their production facilities to america and remain profitable? A great line from the Gov. is about how the big 3 are the largest purchasers of US steel. They're also the ones who basically made the US steel business dissapear. Woo, look at all these savings we got by purchasing our steel over seas. Wait, we put one of the largest industries in the country out of business, and now people don't have money to buy our cars? Astonishing!


Lots of ramble - tl;dr - I agree with Avestan, it's time to fucking move on. Maybe everyone can drive a BMW or Mercedes or Volvo now - at least it will be a quality product with a decent safety rating.

[Gzette]

How long until we need to bail out hotdogs and apple pie?

that made me lol

Thanks for sharing your insights Knarlz. Sounds like the whole industry needs to be leveled and re-worked. But, in my opinion, NOT as the hands of the govnt. I imagine Knalz's weekend sensor assignments with the same workers, making overtime plus about 5 bureaucrats to ensure that no one's religious viewpoints, socio-economic background were offended during the installation of the sensors, plus instruction manuals in ebonics.

[Siji]

Piece of shit crap cars that fucking suck. (Why are the big 3 usually the last 3 in...well, any rating of just about anything?)

That. So you give the 'big 3' 100 kabillion in a bail-out.. they keep making shitty cars that nobody wants to buy and before long, they're right back where they are now. Money wasted.

I don't have a solution, as you can't just say 'here is money, make cars better than Toyota/Honda from now on' and think it's going to happen. I learned a long time ago not to buy US cars. They're boring and low quality. Money is at a premium and I want the most for my money, so I only buy foreign now. Besides, lots and lots of Americans are employed by those foreign auto makers..

More unemployment we don't need, but I fail to come up with any solution that keeps the big 3 in business and profitable.

[Aslanna]

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with a bailout. I was just trying to clarify a point that one of the 'big 3' American automakers going out of business would impact a lot more people and aspects of the economy than simply that automaker. Personally speaking I think they all make crap and I wouldn't buy another American car. Especially a Ford. Fuck Ford!

[Markulas]

blasphemy!! Ford be praised!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordism

[laneela]

I'm so on-the-fence on this. I think the only way I could support a bail-out would be if there are preconditions set where the automakers would have to agree to make a certain percentage of energy-efficient vehicles by a certain date. For me, the cons are outweighing the pros at the moment and something needs to be added to sweeten the deal.

[Boogahz]

Weren't the automakers added to the list of companies being given portions of the original bailout money?

[Knarlz]

Weren't the automakers added to the list of companies being given portions of the original bailout money?

Not yet.

http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/topst ... ilout.aspx

Bloomberg reports President-Elect Obama is urging lawmakers to rush through a $50 billion bailout for the struggling U.S. automakers...........Also at issue is whether the money would come from TARP ......... There is, however, a precedent for bankrupt industries operating their way through restructuring efforts.

Although GM will be broke by Jan 20th, I'm not for "rushing through" anything. If you give them 50 biiiiiillion now, with out the requesite changes required to sustain them, they will just burn through it and need more.

[Neroon]

I think the American auto makers' main issue is overhead. They are perfectly capable of making a car just as nice as any import, they just cannot do it for anywhere near the price.

I've owned about 12 cars in my life, and had MUCH better luck with the imports. Hell, most of them I never had a single issue with.

I would support a bailout if they dissolved the unions, layed off all the workers, and made them all re-apply for their jobs at reasonable wages. I remember Intel doing this with a Digital plant in Massachusettes.

[Avestan]

There is a shit ton of positioning going on by the automakers right now and I have been reading some VERY misleading articles.

The reason why this is a political issue is that the auto unions are DESPERATE to avoid bankruptcy. Any guesses why? All their contracts can be voided.

Backruptcy is the solution here, but the unions who financed Obama's campaign are trying every trick in the book to avoid it, including trying to argue that GM would not be able to get financing out of bankruptcy (bullshit) and trying to argue that this is fundementally different from the airline industry because people would somehow find cars sold by a bankrupt company as less attractive.

The big three can all go bankrupt and they will survive just fine. Pretty much all the airlines did it and that example is a pretty great correlary to this situation in my opinion. The difference is that our upcoming administration took a shitload of money from an organization that stands to lose tremendously if the big three do declare backruptcy.

[miir]

the unions who financed Obama's campaign are trying every trick in the book to avoid it, including trying to argue that GM would not be able to get financing out of bankruptcy

Uhh, what the fuck does Obama have to do with any of this?



As for the rest of you post... I agree.
The UAW is basically fucked if any of the big 3 file for bankuptcy protection.

[Avestan]

I shouldn't have confused the issue and it isn't just Obama, it is all the democrats. The reason they are pushing for this bailout is that they are bigtime in bed with the unions and "owe" them for the turnout and donations in the last election.

[pyrella]

Can't I be a Democrat and wish nothing but the worst for unions?

I believe in plenty of socialist programs - schools, roads (although i guess we don't need these if we don't have cars!), police, military, space exploration, etc.

But certain portions of the working class getting advantages over other portions of the working class, because of the one weapon at their disposal, "The Strike", I feel is bullshit.

[Zaelath]

Backruptcy is the solution here, but the unions who financed Obama's campaign are trying every trick in the book to avoid it, including trying to argue that GM would not be able to get financing out of bankruptcy (bullshit) and trying to argue that this is fundementally different from the airline industry because people would somehow find cars sold by a bankrupt company as less attractive.

I agree, I don't understand how an American made car could be less attractive than it is now.

[Noysyrump]

Can't I be a Democrat and wish nothing but the worst for unions?

I believe in plenty of socialist programs - schools, roads (although i guess we don't need these if we don't have cars!), police, military, space exploration, etc.

But certain portions of the working class getting advantages over other portions of the working class, because of the one weapon at their disposal, "The Strike", I feel is bullshit.

You can be a democrat and non-union.. you cannot be pro-union and republican, we wont let you.

Yes US made cars suck ass since the 70s when the first bailouts happened. They will not get better until they have reason too, unfortunatly the world is full of dimwits who buy gm cars because daddy always bought a gm, so they still sell some. Then our own gov'ment tries to hamstring the jabbos from out selling the Big 3 with tarrifs etc. However, if we let GM and Chrysler die, either the jabbo and kraut companies will buy the factories, or they will just out right buy them out and fix the whole mess.

But, of course the little money GM does have they will of course spend on lobbyists to force the gubment into another handout.

[Boogahz]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081117/ap_ ... ss_returns

WASHINGTON – The Bush White House stressed Monday that it supports help for the struggling auto industry, but believes it should not be taken from the $700 billion financial system rescue program.

As lawmakers were returning to a lame duck session to focus on the troubled industry, President Bush's chief spokeswoman issued a statement saying the administration "does not want U.S. automakers to fail." Press secretary Dana Perino complained that reporting on the White House's on this issue has involved "attempts to shorthand the administration's position."

Perino's early morning statement also made clear, however, that the administration steadfastly opposes drawing funds from the bailout plan to help Detroit. She said the $25 billion that Democrats favor taking from the rescue plan should come, instead, from a Department of Energy program previously approved to develop fuel-efficient vehicles.

Democrats want to use part of the $700 billion Wall Street bailout for emergency loans to help prop up the Big Three carmakers. General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC are seeking an infusion of $25 billion, a figure that several Senate Democrats embraced Sunday.

Senate Democrats plan to introduce legislation Monday attaching an auto bailout to a House-passed bill extending unemployment benefits. A vote was expected as early as Wednesday.

"There's a high degree of urgency" for federal action if GM is going to stave off a financial crisis, Rick Wagoner, GM chairman and chief executive, said Sunday in a joint appearance with United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger on WDIV-TV in Detroit.

"It's really time to move on this," Wagoner said.

In her statement Monday, Perino said, "The auto industry is an important part of our manufacturing base, and we want the industry to succeed and compete in the global economy." But she also said that media reports have erroneously depicted the administration as taking too harsh a stand on financial relief.

Her statement Monday seemed aimed more at elaborating on the administration's position than revising or tweaking it.

"We believe this assistance should come from the program created by Congress that was specifically designed to assist the automakers — from the $25 billion Department of Energy loan program," Perino said.

She said the $700 billion rescue program "was never intended by Congress to assist automakers or other sectors of the economy. It was solely intended to deal with what is an ongoing credit crisis in our financial sector."

...

[Sylvus]

I just got this email from my Uncle, and thought it was relevant to the discussion. I'm not sure if he wrote it himself, or if it's just a forward, but whatever!

Dear Family and Friends,

I write this as a GM retiree, and as a concerned American who is asking for your support.

Now that the presidential election is over, one of the surest ways to set off a heated discussion at your neighborhood coffee shop or diner is to pose this question: Should Washington bail out the Domestic Automakers?

Let me address one common misconception:

Despite what you may be hearing from some media reports and other sources, the Domestic Automakers are not asking for a bailout, but rather a loan that will be repaid.

The financial crisis is obviously hurting every sector of our economy. But the auto industry – foreign as well as domestic -- has been hit especially hard because the car business runs on credit, and the credit markets have stopped functioning as they normally do. Lenders have stopped lending because many have suffered massive loan losses and are struggling with their own balance sheets and capital reserves.

As a result automakers and suppliers can’t get credit to invest in retooling factories or developing advanced-propulsion technologies. Dealers can’t get credit to finance their inventories and other routine business expenses. And consumers can’t get credit to buy new cars. And even for those consumers who could get loans, gloom about the economy and worry about their own jobs have discouraged car-buying and driven consumer confidence to an all-time low.

Let me assure you that I’m certainly familiar with the arguments against the federal government helping the U.S. auto industry survive the most severe economic crisis since the Great Depression. Somehow the fact that I’m a General Motors dealer doesn’t stop close friends or total strangers from telling me that if GM, Ford and Chrysler can’t make it through this crisis on their own – well, too bad for “Detroit,” but it really doesn’t affect anyone else. Or does it?

The reality is that every state – and virtually every community -- in America has a stake in the future of the domestic auto industry. General Motors, Ford and Chrysler directly employ 240,000 people, provide health care to nearly 2 million Americans, and pay pension benefits to 775,000 retirees and surviving spouses.

That’s just the start. GM, Ford and Chrysler support another 5 million American jobs in all 50 states; at parts suppliers, service providers, and auto dealerships. In fact, GM alone has more than 6,000 dealerships in the U.S.; these independent small businesses employ some 344,000 people with a total annual payroll of $16.8 Billion.

According new study by the highly-respected Center for Automotive Research (CAR), the consequences of a portion of the domestic auto industry collapsing would far exceed the $25 billion loan needed to bridge the current crisis:

>> One in 10 American jobs depend on U.S. automakers
>> Nearly 3 million jobs are at immediate risk
>> U.S. personal income could be reduced by $150 billion
>> The tax revenue lost over 3 years would be more than $156 billion

What about a less dire scenario? According to the CAR study, if Detroit cut output and employment by 50 percent to meet ever-shrinking market share, which would mean contraction by two of the automakers, 2.46 million jobs would be lost initially, and governments would lose $108-billion in revenue over three years.

Faced with these risks to the well being of millions of Americans, and to the U.S. economy as a whole, it is clear to me that a government loan is a sound investment in one of our largest industrial segments, and in America itself.

Discussions are now underway in Washington D.C. concerning loans to support U.S. automakers. I am asking for your support in this vital effort by contacting your representatives. You can take an active role in the future of America by making sure they know how you feel on this critical topic.

Please take a few minutes to go to http://www.gmfactsandfiction.com <http://www.gmfactsandfiction.com> , where we have made it easy for you to contact your U.S. Senators and Representatives. Just click on the “I’m A Concerned Citizen” link under the “Mobilize Now” section and enter your name, address, e-mail address and ZIP code to send a programmed email stating your support for the U.S. automotive industry. You will also be able to view an important video forecasting the likely effects to the American way of life if the U.S. automotive industry were to collapse.

Let me assure you that General Motors has made dramatic improvements over the last 10 years. In fact, they are leading the industry with award-winning vehicles like the Saturn AURA, Chevrolet Malibu, Cadillac CTS, Buick Enclave, Pontiac Vibe, GMC Acadia and more. They offer 18 models with an EPA estimated 30 MPG highway or better, more than Toyota or Honda. GM has 6 hybrids in market with 3 more launching by mid-2009. GM has closed the quality gap with the imports. Unfortunately, the current financial crisis has hindered their efforts.

I will greatly appreciate any assistance you can lend in the efforts to make your Senators and Congressional representatives aware of your support for the Domestic Automakers.


Thank you,
xxxx

[pyrella]

I just got this email from my Uncle, and thought it was relevant to the discussion. I'm not sure if he wrote it himself, or if it's just a forward, but whatever!

Dear Family and Friends,

I write this as a GM retiree, and as a concerned American who is asking for your support.

Read: I still want my pension

Now that the presidential election is over, one of the surest ways to set off a heated discussion at your neighborhood coffee shop or diner is to pose this question: Should Washington bail out the Domestic Automakers?

Let me address one common misconception:

Despite what you may be hearing from some media reports and other sources, the Domestic Automakers are not asking for a bailout, but rather a loan that will be repaid.

The financial crisis is obviously hurting every sector of our economy. But the auto industry – foreign as well as domestic -- has been hit especially hard because the car business runs on credit, and the credit markets have stopped functioning as they normally do. Lenders have stopped lending because many have suffered massive loan losses and are struggling with their own balance sheets and capital reserves.

As a result automakers and suppliers can’t get credit to invest in retooling factories or developing advanced-propulsion technologies. Dealers can’t get credit to finance their inventories and other routine business expenses. And consumers can’t get credit to buy new cars. And even for those consumers who could get loans, gloom about the economy and worry about their own jobs have discouraged car-buying and driven consumer confidence to an all-time low.

So how/why does giving the automakers money help them, when it's the consumers that need the money to make the purchases that will save the car companies? So they can keep building shit people aren't buying?

Let me assure you that I’m certainly familiar with the arguments against the federal government helping the U.S. auto industry survive the most severe economic crisis since the Great Depression. Somehow the fact that I’m a General Motors dealer doesn’t stop close friends or total strangers from telling me that if GM, Ford and Chrysler can’t make it through this crisis on their own – well, too bad for “Detroit,” but it really doesn’t affect anyone else. Or does it?

The reality is that every state – and virtually every community -- in America has a stake in the future of the domestic auto industry. General Motors, Ford and Chrysler directly employ 240,000 people, provide health care to nearly 2 million Americans, and pay pension benefits to 775,000 retirees and surviving spouses.

Amazing, almost 1% of people in the country - the other 99% who don't get similar benefits/wages should be hooking them up I suppose?

That’s just the start. GM, Ford and Chrysler support another 5 million American jobs in all 50 states; at parts suppliers, service providers, and auto dealerships. In fact, GM alone has more than 6,000 dealerships in the U.S.; these independent small businesses employ some 344,000 people with a total annual payroll of $16.8 Billion.

According new study by the highly-respected Center for Automotive Research (CAR), the consequences of a portion of the domestic auto industry collapsing would far exceed the $25 billion loan needed to bridge the current crisis:

>> One in 10 American jobs depend on U.S. automakers
>> Nearly 3 million jobs are at immediate risk
>> U.S. personal income could be reduced by $150 billion
>> The tax revenue lost over 3 years would be more than $156 billion

A whole bunch of fear tactics - those 'side businesses' can supply foreign automotive companies just as well as they can domestic ones - just because your shitty business goes tits up doesn't mean that the after market industry will go away.

What about a less dire scenario? According to the CAR study, if Detroit cut output and employment by 50 percent to meet ever-shrinking market share, which would mean contraction by two of the automakers, 2.46 million jobs would be lost initially, and governments would lose $108-billion in revenue over three years.

Faced with these risks to the well being of millions of Americans, and to the U.S. economy as a whole, it is clear to me that a government loan is a sound investment in one of our largest industrial segments, and in America itself.

Discussions are now underway in Washington D.C. concerning loans to support U.S. automakers. I am asking for your support in this vital effort by contacting your representatives. You can take an active role in the future of America by making sure they know how you feel on this critical topic.

Please take a few minutes to go to http://www.gmfactsandfiction.com <http://www.gmfactsandfiction.com> , where we have made it easy for you to contact your U.S. Senators and Representatives. Just click on the “I’m A Concerned Citizen” link under the “Mobilize Now” section and enter your name, address, e-mail address and ZIP code to send a programmed email stating your support for the U.S. automotive industry. You will also be able to view an important video forecasting the likely effects to the American way of life if the U.S. automotive industry were to collapse.

Please view our propaganda page and believe everything that you read.

Let me assure you that General Motors has made dramatic improvements over the last 10 years. In fact, they are leading the industry with award-winning vehicles like the Saturn AURA, Chevrolet Malibu, Cadillac CTS, Buick Enclave, Pontiac Vibe, GMC Acadia and more. They offer 18 models with an EPA estimated 30 MPG highway or better, more than Toyota or Honda. GM has 6 hybrids in market with 3 more launching by mid-2009. GM has closed the quality gap with the imports. Unfortunately, the current financial crisis has hindered their efforts.

I heard of the Malibu once.

I will greatly appreciate any assistance you can lend in the efforts to make your Senators and Congressional representatives aware of your support for the Domestic Automakers.


Thank you,
xxxx

I still feel there is absolutely no justification for this. Go bankrupt, restructure in a way that won't put you back where you started. The bullshit the president of GM was speaking this morning about 'we wanted to improve the standard combustion engine, before going to hybrid, before going to full electric' makes absolutely no sense to me. They're banking on declining gas prices to have people purchase SUV's again - so we can cycle back around to the huge price increases in gas again.

Again, I fail to see the need to bail these guys out over anyone else. All you people who don't work in the automotive industry - if your business is poorly managed, and you turn your product in to something that is no longer desirable to your clientele - do you A) Fix your shit before you go out of business, or B) Go to the gubment, hat in hand, asking for a bail out.

Someone told me the difference between the airlines and the car companies is that the airlines were a 'service' and automotive manufacturers are a producer of goods. However...that portion of the business is 1/4 of a million people - the other 2.75 million they are whining about are...wait for it - a service. Car dealerships sell cars, insurance agencies sell insurance, etc, etc - all services. Every single one of those services can still be viable in the market, unless for some idiotic reason they are tied in to some form of exclusivity agreement with the big 3.

I still have yet to see a single argument that justifies this other than 'it will unemploy some people'. Yes on a larger scale than some companies, but scalebacks/cutbacks/etc/etc are a daily fucking dilemma. Businesses are always laying people off - Citigroup just layed off 50,000 people. That's 1/5 - 1/6 of what would be affected - but this is a business that is staying in business by doing so. Maybe if the UAW didn't have a strangle hold on these incompetent fucks, they could make cut backs as needed. Do I want people to be unemployed? No. But them's the breaks - go work for a company that has a stronger ethic and mgmt with a backbone. Oh wait no, you wanted the easy job your cousin got you, where you put a fucking door handle on a door, and can afford a three story home, and can have your significant other stay home and be a home maker.


You succeed you want fuckers to back off your cash - you fail, you want a fucking handout (yes, it's a handout, in the form of a loan in the size and with the conditions no one else is eligible for).

Die in a fire you ignorant fucks, you brought it upon yourselves.

[Spang]

Big Three CEOs Flew Private Jets to Plead for Public Funds.

[miir]

Haha, the CEO of Ford's salary is TWENTY EIGHT MILLION DOLLARS?

[Fenna]

No matter how you see it, the reality is that a grant will not save them in the long run, and a loan will never be paid off. They have a failed business model. There is no way that they can ever be competitive with the yoke of legacy costs around their necks, regardless of cutting private jets and executive salaries.

That means that no amount of money will "bail out" the big 3. It will take more money, more loans, whatever, to keep them running. And what does that amount to, then? It's essentially welfare.


*edit spelling*

[Lalanae]

Big Three CEOs Flew Private Jets to Plead for Public Funds.

wow I was kind of on the fence until I read that, now I'm just pissed.

Of course I've been pissed for a LONG time that US automakers have been so resistant to producing hybrid cars and preferred to churn out gas guzzlers despite obvious forecasting that the SUV market would dry up. I was worried that the impact of the failed auto industry might be worse than just biting the bullet (bailout) but now I just don't care. The thought of giving those fuckers anything they want makes me ill.

[Sylvus]

Eh, the private jet thing doesn't bother me so much. The CEO of a company that large has lots of things to do, and can have business in Washington, Detroit, at a plant in Kentucky, etc. all within the same day or two. Not to mention, do you think he flew to D.C. by himself on that plane? Or did he probably have an assistant or two, the Senior VP or something or other, a company accountant, advisors, etc?

I find it odd that people are more up in arms about the auto industry asking for a $25B loan than the $700B bailout of Wall Street.

And finally, I've owned 5 American cars in my life, and been more than satisfied with all of them. I don't get all the hate, have all of you really had personal experience with low-quality American cars, or do you just believe and repeat things that you hear?

That said, I think there is a bit of a problem with the UAW and the money that auto workers make might be artificially inflated, but I'm not sure letting the companies die is going to solve those problems or not be worse for the country in general than trying to find another solution.

[Boogahz]

And finally, I've owned 5 American cars in my life, and been more than satisfied with all of them. I don't get all the hate, have all of you really had personal experience with low-quality American cars, or do you just believe and repeat things that you hear?

It is just like the people that never owned Vista parroting the few that had issues with it!

That said, I think there is a bit of a problem with the UAW and the money that auto workers make might be artificially inflated, but I'm not sure letting the companies die is going to solve those problems or not be worse for the country in general than trying to find another solution.

A bit of a problem seems to be an understatement! I can fully comprehend the impact on the families that have benefitted from the contracts they have worked on, but there HAS to be a way to get out of them when the companies are falling apart.


*edit* hmm, I left a word out!

[Aslanna]

And finally, I've owned 5 American cars in my life, and been more than satisfied with all of them. I don't get all the hate, have all of you really had personal experience with low-quality American cars, or do you just believe and repeat things that you hear?

Yes. I have had bad personal expericences with low-quality American cars. Fuck Ford!

It is just like the people that never owned Vista parroting the few that had issues with it!

I've used Vista and it sucks too. Fuck Vista!

Vista as an operating system is a good analogy to the American can market. A shining example of how much poo it really is.

[miir]

I love my American car... because it's a Toyota!

[vn_Tanc]

The government has bailed out the banks so surely businesses such as GM can now go to the banks for their bailout?

I thought that was how it was supposed to work.

Also: In your face all you laissez-faire capitalist pigs. Look where the great, trustworthy, working for the good of everyone captains of industry have taken you. And in a panic the only solution is socialist to the core: nationalization. Delicious. Stillm when the dust settle you'll still have your army, your guns and your god. America will still be America and perhaps you'll realize that looking out for each other isn't so bad. Then you can socialize your medical system and join the civilized world

[Gzette]

I think GM and Ford should be bailed out. I like the idea of forcing them to alter their business plan. I want to see solid plans for hybrid cars, electric cars etc. before theyare given money. There's a few months before they run out of money, so I have no problem with them sweating a bit.

Chrysler just needs to die. If the Germans couldnt fix them, there's no way GM could do it, and its obvious Chrysler cant do it themselves.

[pyrella]

I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would support a bailout.

Opinion or not about how shitty American cars are - it's accurately reflected in their sales.....Or should I say, lack of sales?

Do I have the opportunity to say hey, I have this business plan, that would employ 5 million people, but currently it isn't doing anything - can I have a bailout? At least in my hypothetical situation I already have a better chance out the door of being profitable than these guys. I don't have a union siphoning off my money, raping the employer and employee both coming and going. I'm not currently in debt, with a need to immediately take this money to pay the bills.

Hell, my plan, is to take $25B, drop it in a bank, and become profitable via interest. Holy shit, I'm the pope.


It's been said here before - welcome to America, you're free to succeed, but much more likely, you're free to fail too. You can't have success stories if others don't have stories of failure. If you build yourself a pedestal, and think you're untouchable, and said pedestal crumbles - it will hurt us to stand under it to try and catch your ass.


As far as socialist this and that - I'm all for socialism up until it starts making an individual a personal profit off of others. If you want that, stick to capitalism and reap the rewards if you do well, and suffer the consequences if you don't. If you want a government bailout - go all the way, de-list yourself, make yourself a government agency, keep all those people employed, and start building industrial auto (work trucks, etc). Yes I know, they already do, and they are profitable to boot. Quit trying to be popular and sell crap to the American people that they don't want. Really. from 60%+ market share to less than 30%. Regardless of opinion, those are numbers saying, that even if they are gold plated turds, no one wants them. Sure you've bought 5 pieces of turds, maybe polished to a high shine, drilled through them, and put them on a lanyard, and wear them around your neck. But most everyone else looks at that and goes, hmm, those are some turds.

[pyrella]

The best part is, I found that picture after I wrote that!

[miir]

Opinion or not about how shitty American cars are - it's accurately reflected in their sales.....Or should I say, lack of sales?

What company do you think is number one in worldwide automobile sales?

[pyrella]

Hmm, this was only thing I could find amongst all the companies called World Wide Auto Sales, or sites about cars on sales around the world.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18286221/

It's from '07, and since then GM has only done worse, and Toyota better. What hasn't changed - again - is the market share (which omg omg means sales) is that they've gone from a 60%+ to sub 30%. Now I understand this still puts them in the 'lead' if they are 30% and everyone else is lower than that. But when you've lost 50% of your market, with no end in sight, as a business, that's called going tits up.

Or was this a silly baited question about over all sales ever, like the fact that McDonalds has sold 20 billion hamburgers, but this year maybe 10 million?


Oh I found this: http://powerperformance.info/worldwide- ... go-hungry/

I don't see a publication date, and it sounds more like a forecast than a report (still looking!), but:

Will emerge stronger: China. The booming Chinese light vehicle market (which includes passenger vehicle and light commercial vehicle segments) will slow in 2008, yet, it will still grow at very attractive rates. J.D. Power thinks Chinese light vehicle sales will come in at 8.9 million units in 2008.

Bloody nose, but doing ok: Europe. Light-vehicle sales in all of Europe are expected to drop to 21.3 million units in 2008.

Downright ugly: U.S. J.D. Power and Associates forecasts total U.S. new light-vehicle sales to plummet to 13.6 million units in 2008

I do know you love pulling out the sales numbers for consoles - so I'm trying to see the relevance here. Having the shitty product, and having it pointed out is just one way of many of illuminating the failures of these companies as a whole. While all 3 aren't the same company, they have similar short comings. This isn't about anything more than businesses that do poorly go out of business. That's called business.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business

A business (also called a firm or an enterprise) is a legally recognized organization designed to provide goods and/or services to consumers. A business needs a market. A consumer is an essential part of a business. Businesses are predominant in capitalist economies, most being privately owned and formed to earn profit to increase the wealth of owners. The owners and operators of a business have as one of their main objectives the receipt or generation of a financial return in exchange for work and acceptance of risk. Notable exceptions include cooperative businesses and state-owned enterprises. Socialistic systems involve either government, public, or worker ownership of most sizable businesses.