Anti-American article - thoughts?

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Nick
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Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Nick »

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 782669.ece

Wooooo! All the ills of a mighty nation are expressed in a single high-pitched syllable. Wooooo! Not a bass roar of triumph but a mezzo-soprano whoop of derision. Not triumph but triumphalism; not celebration but gloating; not humble gratitude but gleeful disrespect.

We will hear it a lot on the golf course of Valhalla over the next three days as sport's most bizarre competition, the Ryder Cup, unfolds in Kentucky. The United States of America take on the disunited states of Europe. Missed putt? Wooooo! Sliced drive? Wooooo! Ball in the water? Wooooo-ooooo!

The gulf between the US's jingoistic support and golf's tradition of decorum creates an extraordinary tension. The Americans find themselves still (a) apologising for and (b) going into denial about various breaches, not only of golfing etiquette but of acceptably civilised behaviour.

The fact is that the Americans are horribly uncomfortable with the Ryder Cup. In the past three events, all of which they have lost, they have sought comfort by simply not caring about the result; well, if these Europeans want it so badly, they can have it.
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In this they took the lead from Tiger Woods, whose “happy as a wet cat” demeanour when on Ryder Cup duty has created a glorious montage of negative body language. There is a deep and terrible confusion that runs through the players: they are all proudly and publicly patriotic Americans, but they just don't get the team thing.

But there is another, still deeper, problem and it affects all American sports. It is tempting to say that it is one of the problems with America, they don't get international sport. They don't get it because they don't do it. The Ryder Cup is the only regular international sporting fixture that has any meaning for most of America.

America is an island culture and its sporting culture expresses its insular nature. Sure, we live in an American world. American “food” dominates the high streets of the world, American “culture” dominates the television and the cinemas. But America doesn't import. It is a selling nation, not a buying one. It is not receptive to outside influences. And in sport, America is the nation that plays with itself.

Hell, if you let other nations in, you may lose, and then where would you be? In 1903, baseball called its seasonal decider the World's Championship Series. Well, anyone can be a world champion in a sport that no one else does.

At the time, the only professional baseball teams were in the US and Canada. That is no longer the case, but the autumnal seven-game decider is still the World Series. Well, the winners of the World Series would certainly clobber any pro team from Japan or Latin America, so what's your problem?

Football is the world's game, America's game is American football. It is a home-grown product and the winners of the Super Bowl will routinely refer to themselves as champions of the world. That's because the world is America, right?

Basketball is an American sport that really has gone round the world. It is played, and played well, in many countries. But when the best American players slouch out of the National Basketball Association (NBA) to play in the Olympic Games, the results are pretty one-sided, as one crushing victory follows another.

The US won a mere bronze in Athens in 2004, prompting some rethinking. It is interesting to speculate about the effect that this will have on the national psyche, but so far the reaction has been simple enough: it's the domestic games of the NBA that matter. The local product has infinitely greater significance than the global one.

True, the US plays “sah-kurr”. The national team have qualified (albeit once as the host nation) for the World Cup finals in the past five competitions, better than England, and, like England, they reached the quarter-finals in 2002. However, the American media didn't make as much fuss about this as its English counterparts.

Sah-kurr doesn't count. It's a game for kids and girls and Mexicans. Defeat at sah-kurr causes no national pain, victory no national rejoicing. It's not a heartland game. If it was, and the US were regularly defeated, what would that do to the hearts and minds of the American people? What would it do to American foreign policy?

Say Americans had continued to play cricket and regularly found themselves playing 11 against 11 in the real sporting world. How would they have fared against the four-man pace attack of the West Indies team of the 1980s? Would they, too, have been humiliated? Would they, too, have been forced to admit that other people and other nations were better than them in something that really mattered?

What if the US had stuck to rugby, rather than inventing its own domestic variant? How would a serious US rugby team - a sport in which you have to tackle without a hat on - have coped if they had been defeated by the great England team of 2002-03?

The England football team suffered a devastating defeat by Hungary in 1953, one that changed the way the nation saw itself. The people were forced to come to terms with the fact that Britain was no longer a power whose very name could make the world shudder.

(Oddly enough, an early intimation of this decline came in the World Cup finals of 1950, when the England football team were beaten by the US; this mattered more to England than it did to the US.) So how would the US respond to a similar trauma - if, say, at the height of the Cold War or at the time of the invasion of Iraq, the nation was undone in its pride by the Brazil football team, the Australia cricket team, the All Blacks? We shall never know.

Instead, American teams continued to win the World Series, save for 1992 and 1993 when the Toronto Blue Jays (honorary Americans, just as Scots become British in times of victory) did so. American teams have somehow managed to win every Super Bowl and every NBA finals series. In competitions without foreign teams, the US have an impressive record.

But every two years, the US does play international sport in something that matters. Woods is a symbol of the greatness of America (and American Express), so how come he's not beating the Europeans all over the course?

The resilience that you need in the rough and tumble of international sport is a foreign notion in America, to the players and to the public alike. Americans don't have the experience of the ups and downs, the good days and the bad days, the rapid transitions from national hero to national villain and back again. They simply don't understand that sometimes a team from another country play better than you and that all you can do is take it.

So the atmosphere at Valhalla will be hideous with whoops. If the US get on top, the place will be incontinent with bad vibes.

Much was made last month of China opening up to the world at the Olympic Games. But the hidden, the self-enclosed, the all-repelling sporting life of the US is still more secretive, still more hermetic.

America comes out before the sporting world only once every two years and simply doesn't know what to do or how to behave. Wooooo!
From a non Ameri-centric perspective, this article sounds pretty much spot on. America does have some truly great international stars, but this whole attitude to its own domestic leagues as being some sort of special thing (its not) definitely rings true.

The behaviour of the American crowd at the recent Ryder cup is a legitimate example of the issues this article raises. Not to mention the ridiculous behaviour of Americans in recent ryder cups (for the record I'm not a golf fan, I still found the behaviour really unacceptable on a fundamental sporting level).

Also, Superbowl "World Champions" and World series nonsense. It's sort of embarrassing to watch such gushing masturbatory language every year.

What's with the fear of failure? How does this sort of article make you feel about the issues raised?

I'm really not just posting it to be a dick, I'm actually interested. To me, like it or not, it rings true on a fundamental level. Obviously an American will feel differently..that's fine...how do you combat some of the legitimate comments in this article?

thoughts?
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Boogahz »

Nick wrote:The behaviour of the American crowd at the recent Ryder cup is a legitimate example of the issues this article raises. Not to mention the ridiculous behaviour of Americans in recent ryder cups (for the record I'm not a golf fan, I still found the behaviour really unacceptable on a fundamental sporting level).
What behavior were you referring to this year? My guess is that it did not make it to the ESPN highlights here, and Golf is the only sport besides Baseball that I pass out within minutes of turning it on.

I do agree about the craptastic attitudes that can go around in some of the US Leagues though (maybe the NFL & MLB more than others). Some of them have improved their "world view," and they have started either participating more or at least recruiting from outside of the US more often.

I recently proposed changing the bullshit way that US Soccer Leagues handle the MLS playoffs (basically like NFL/MLB). I brought up making it more like other leagues with multiple "levels." Basically make MLS the top tier, and maybe USL second tier. The shitty teams get relegated for at least a season, and the better teams get promoted. The response was that it would never fly in the US, because nobody would sink money into a team that could not stay in the top tier. Um, this is how it has been working in Europe for years, and it works great! Once a team has continued success in the top tier, they GET more money to spend on things like players and facilities! The final response was: Americans just won't "get it" like that.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Sueven »

Well, first off, this comment:
The Ryder Cup is the only regular international sporting fixture that has any meaning for most of America.
Is ridiculous enough to be bizarre and makes me wonder the extent to which the author actually understands American sports.

I do think there are some good points-- we have a pretty insular sports culture. At the same time, we traditionally have played sports which are not huge worldwide. Basketball, baseball and American football have been played at a high professional level exclusively within the United States until the past few decades. Football in large part still is. As other nations have improved at those sports, it seems to me that there's been a pretty sensible developing recognition of what is happening. People understand that basketball might internationalize fairly quickly from here on out and understand that the U.S. olympic team won't automatically win every year and so forth.

As for the domestic league champions declaring themselves world champions: Sure, it's a little silly, given that they don't compete against foreign teams (besides Canada). The domestic leagues are generally acknowledged (even by non-Americans) to be the best in the world, but it's still a little silly. I don't think there's really much else to say about it. I'm sorry if it really bothers you?

I don't really agree with the insinuation that the reason Americans don't care about widely international sports-- like rubgy and soccer-- is because of some protectivist instinct in which we're too terrified to lose at anything to compete seriously in any worthwhile sports. I think that we live on the other side of an ocean and have different cultural influences that other parts of the world and therefore our athletic culture is not precisely aligned with Western Europe. Again, I'm sorry that we don't particularly care for your sports? I guess?

Again, I don't think the article is 'wrong,' per se-- it expresses a viewpoint which is understandable and I think I can comprehend. I just don't think it says much of anything useful or insightful.

And again, we really do not care about the Ryder Cup.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Tyek »

Your upset that US fans were cheering when a Euro shot went off line? Hate to break it to you, but your crowds were not exactly gentlemen when the events were over there.

I also know the Premier League bills itself as the "Greatest Football in the world", so it is pretty common for a lot of countries to do this type of thing.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Drolgin Steingrinder »

Tyek wrote:Your upset that US fans were cheering when a Euro shot went off line? Hate to break it to you, but your crowds were not exactly gentlemen when the events were over there.

I also know the Premier League bills itself as the "Greatest Football in the world", so it is pretty common for a lot of countries to do this type of thing.
I'll go out on a limb and say that proclaiming your league to be the best league in the world is sllllllllllightly different than calling your league competition the World Series.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Spang »

The first World Series happened in 1903. If the rest of the world had a problem with the title of "World Series", they should have said something then.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Bubba Grizz »

I can agree with many of the observations made in that article. I believe that the concept of World Series or World Champions is more of a historical thing than an actual. The NFL is trying to broaden itself world wide. There was NFL Europe, a game played in Britain last year, games played in Japan, and now talks of extending the regular season by decreasing the pre-season in order to facilitate more games in foreign countries without effecting the local economies of the home games.

It isn't that Soccer or Golf isn't like in this country but rather it isn't like as much when compared to Football or Baseball or Basketball. You never see anyone crying over the other sports like gymnastics or the X-Games or Bowling. I lived in Japan for 3 years and trust me they love the shit out of bowling. There is a bowling alley at the bottom of the Tokyo Tower.

I never saw an article bashing American sports from Japan or Mexico or even Canada. Maybe the problem is that Europe is upset that they can't compete in our sports or at least not well.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Kluden »

I believe the author has missed the underlying point that has been made about this exact comment over the years:

American Football (NFL) is the premier league for american football. Nothing else comes close. Every single person in the world can play in the NFL if they have the talent. Yes, the teams are housed in US cities, but the players do NOT have to be US citizens...hence the world comment gets thrown out there.

Its the exact same thing with Baseball and Basketball (MLB and NBA)...the players do not have to be US citizens...they are the best players from the world over, playing for US city based teams...so they are still considered the worlds best teams...and the world's champions when its all done.

That's my understanding of it when it comes to the team sports leagues from american type games. Not trying to be a prick, but that's kind of why its usually presented as "world champions". Plus, who takes the things people say after competing in and winning the greatest achievement in their sport literally? They are super excited etc and all that...so...they say fantastic things :)

In closing, personally, I could give a shit if its "world champs" or "football champs" whatever...the argument that the US plays its own sports to ignore the rest of the world's sports is silly nowadays. it is unfortunate that the internet wasn't born years earlier so every country could play the exact same sports.

edit: what did happen that the writer is complaining about in the Ryder cup? I watched some of it on friday, and when I realized Europe produced a below grade team to compete, I stopped watching. If there truly were people cheering or making noises before the competitors were hitting the ball...that's insane. If they were cheering for a bad shot, that as well is bad form. But golf in general has been going downhill...and yes, the 2006 Ryder's Cup was just as bad with fans cheering for poor shots by US competitors...but Europe won, so the author probably wasn't paying attention 2 years ago.

To me, it just sounds like a sore loser whining. Someone send him an email to cheer him up, remind him its just GOLF...he never mentions tennis, or other world sports that the US competes in (club rugby is international)...etc...very incorrect in all those assumptions.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Ashur »

You want my thoughts? OK.

The United States doesn't really care much about the sport (Football/Soccer) that most of the world cares about. Hrm, oh well. BFD.

We feel the same about cricket as you do about American Football "Oh, look, a quaint foreign sport. Boring...zzzz.". Would you let us enjoy the sports we like in peace without your goddamn whining about how we're not one with Europe?

I believe you were truly posting the article to be a dick. It's your MO and you're not getting enough attention in Current Events so you want to fag up this forum with World vs US threads too?

Why don't you engage Winnow on how the people in Glasgow make fun of Arizona or something.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Nick »

Apart from yesterday, I haven't even been posting in CE for about 2 weeks so perhaps you should try again :roll: . If agreeing with the article makes me a dick then fine, it's a fairly widely thought of perspective, not just in Europe. I thought I would put it here, don't like my posts Ashur? Don't fucking read them then and move on.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by miir »

The difference is that sports like cricket and football are played worldwide...
American style football is played only in the US (and Canada).
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Fash »

I thought the article was amusing, but I hardly think that any sport 'matters.' So what if we kept playing Cricket and lost? Really, we're not the #1 superpower because we own the basketball court.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Ashur »

Hey Nick, you're the one who posted the article and asked for our thoughts. So you have them. :lol:

Besides, you're the one who said "I'm really not just posting it to be a dick,..." (emphasis mine), so I acknowledge you had other motivations than being a dick.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Kluden »

The writer is implying that we are not allowing the world to partake in our sports culture...that would be false. Anyone can be a fan, anyone can play.

And really, come off it...big sports losses by England constructed their foreign policy abroad? LOL in the truest sense of it. I can see Churchill now, "Oh bloody hell gents, best get out of their back yard, they fielded an excellent cricket team last year."

edit: also a thought...but the US is big enough to support all these teams with all our different major cities. I don't think Europe has a choice...its real easy to be an international community when some of your countries are no bigger than Florida...so basically, your sports HAVE to be "international" for the simple reason of that's the only way to broaden the market and make more money.
Last edited by Kluden on September 25, 2008, 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Canelek »

Cricket is ok. I watched some when I was in Jamaica. Union rugby is also quite enjoyable. (Go All Black!) I played soccer in gradeschool, but I have never really been a fan. I also find tennis, cycling, gymnastics and college basketball boring. But that is just me... enjoy what you like, just don't expect me to like the same shit. :P
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Winnow »

The rest of the world sucks so bad in baseball that the Little League World series has to group up every other country in the world in one bracket vs the actual-age, non roided American bracket.

Its tough being so dominant yet still play by the rules.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Tyek »

I spent about 2 hours with the head of a large French Corporation, and 2 salesmen from Mexico, in a limo the other night. I now can say, like Nick does, that I know everything about the thoughts of Euro's, plus I am an expert on Mexican thoughts.

Thank you.


PS, the weird thing was, while they favored Obama, it was not as black and white as Nick says it is. Also they actually really liked the U.S., which I told him was impossible since Nick says we all suck.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Spang »

America is the greatest country on Earth. Our professional sports leagues (not including MLS) are also the greatest professional sports leagues on the planet. If you don't like it, go to another planet. No one is forcing you stay on Earth.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Chidoro »

Never watched the ryder cup. America never really cared about it but ESPN was really pushing it this year so I guess it got a lot more coverage than normal. Golf ettiquite is annoying to me as about every other sport can jeer to screw the away team up.

There have been some great responses to this article.
I completely agree with Klu in that now that football, and espcially baseball, hockey and basketball have a large amount of international representation. Our leagues in this country can usually pay the most money, they get the most exposure, and therefore get the best players worldwide. There's a reason the second tier of bball players from our colleges end up overseas while a lot of the best players from overseas end up here.

As far as soccer goes, the MLS is doing pretty well these days and has gotten better year over year for awhile now. But soccer has a f'ed up schedule. Various cups and inter-country tournys with the added spice of qualifier games. Regardless, a lot of american players are now playing overseas and americans have access to watch the best teams in the world. They have access to seeing it as a viable sport if they can really excel. I don't think that we are that shut off from the world any longer regarding soccer. I don't think the table system would work in america right now. TV rights are really important and the league is still under expansion. There's also a lot more parity in the MLS than most leagues so you can't just send a team down while the league is trying to gain a foothold in american sportviewer's eyes. There's a long history in the pyramid overseas. No sport in this country adopts that format. Does Mexico's league have relegation? I know they do their three group thing even though they are on the same table. But this whole half of the world has a different schedule. Apertura season, Clausura season. Are Argentina, Mexico, et al being separatists?

cricket, jesus, who cares. I used to live in a very heavily populated indian population(Iselin, NJ) and they had cricket games playing all over the park on weekends. It looks like unrefined shitty baseball.

Rugby has an audience here but it is just not really more than a college sport in the US and that makes us myopic? I think hockey, baseball and basketball are played in more countries than rugby but I could be mistaken. But it's probably pretty close regardless.
Last edited by Chidoro on September 25, 2008, 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Truant »

Winnow wrote:The rest of the world sucks so bad in baseball that the Little League World series has to group up every other country in the world in one bracket vs the actual-age, non roided American bracket.

Its tough being so dominant yet still play by the rules.

Lol, you can't be serious.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Wulfran »

As a non-American but North American, I agree more with my neighbours to the south than the author of this.

Sure the World Series and calling the Superbowl Champions "world champions" sounds pretentious but it is actual fact. Until someone from other leagues can consistently challenge them, never mind beat them, the claims are legitimate. That also goes for the NBA and NHL although they don't make the same claims: they ARE the premier leagues for their respective sports on this planet and their league championships tend to be viewed more seriously than their Olympic tournament counterparts.

The notions of national sporting defeats affecting foreign policy is dubious at best to me as well: sure we all get highs and lows from some of these events but not everyone is a sports fan and those these can possibly affect a nation's morale in the short term, we all get over it. I don't feel inferior to a fan of a rival team just because his team kick the asses of mine, even in succession: who the fuck does?

The whining about the insular culture of sports, get the fuck over that. There are cultural and geographic issues that helped determine how our sporting histories and biases developed. I.E. the US had a pretty strong "we'll do it our way, on our own" attitude bred into them since their rebellion, that was further accentuated by continental isolation. Sure the world has opened up over the past couple decades but thats 2-3 decades vs 2-3 centuries of impetus. In some ways I see the evolution of baseball from cricket and NA Football from soccer as very similar to the evolution of accents and colloquialisms in language. Its not something thats pure conscious choice but its nothing to be ashamed of either.

Now the author can rag on people for violations of sporting ethics, and inside the isolated worlds of the individual sport, he may have valid point, but when you look at shit like the European soccer riots and hoodlums that have come to light, there's no room to be throwing wide spread nationalistic stones. Thats just an excuse to spew the same ignorance his ilk pretends to be so adverse to.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Ashur »

Wulfran says it with eloquence. Thank you.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Canelek »

Excellent points Wulfie. :)
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by cadalano »

the whole article is just another opportunity to somehow work anti-american sentiment into absolutely any topic whatsoever under the disguise of being something worth reading. and certainly for no reason other than to be a spiteful cunt. this goes for both nick and the author.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Nick »

A lot of the replies to this thread have done little but cement the legitimacy of some of the original authors points. Denial is a terrible thing.
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Re: Anti-American article - thoughts?

Post by Tyek »

LOL Nick trolls an entire country. Gratz I guess.
When I was younger, I used to think that the world was doing it to me and that the world owes me some thing…When you're a teeny bopper, that's what you think. I'm 40 now, I don't think that anymore, because I found out it doesn't f--king work. One has to go through that. For the people who even bother to go through that, most assholes just accept what it is anyway and get on with it." - John Lennon
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