Cannabis

[Cotto]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7386889.stm

Fan-fucking-tastic.
Well done Government, give me another reason amoung the many to think your all a bunch of dickweeds. Cause thank god we dont have more pressing issues, and this wont result in a massive waste of police and court time.

[Nick]

As much as I think marijuana should be legalised, I've seen first hand one of my childhood friends become massively psychotic, tripping in and out of psychiatric units, as a direct result of smoking weed.

So I don't really care about this overly. Still, it should just be legal.

[Sylvus]

As much as I think marijuana should be legalised, I've seen first hand one of my childhood friends become massively psychotic, tripping in and out of psychiatric units, as a direct result of smoking weed.

Is that what a doctor blamed it on, or did the incidents just coincide? I'm wondering if there might have been an underlying issue that surfaced at the time he was smoking weed, or if it were exacerbated by it. I've never heard of marijuana causing psychosis.

[Nick]

It was a lot of things. One of which was excessive smoking. Marijuana is known to affect and promote psychosis in a particular (low) percentage of heavy users. I went in and visited him a few times last year, there were a number of other people there with drug induced psychosis/schizophrenia as a result of heavy drug usage (ecstasy/weed/etc). The Doctors said it was fairly common.

(Not common for all users, but common for a percentage of users to then become permanently/temporary psychotic and/or schizophrenic and/or other mental illnesses).

[Ashur]

The horrific plight of the recreational drug user... I'm deeply concerned.



You are right that there are ABSOLUTELY more pressing issues for almost any government.

[Xatrei]

Seems a fitting time to repeat this old chestnut: Correlation does not prove causation. I've seen lots of people who had mental issues to begin with self medicate with any variety of drugs from alcohol to (unprescribed) prescription meds to X to weed to acid to harder substances. I'm talking about people whose sometimes odd or erratic behavior, in hind sight, makes perfect sense once they've been diagnosed and properly treated. These people would have ended up with psychiatric issues regardless. In virtually all of these situations, the ones that I have personally witnessed over time, their usage of chemicals was just a symptom of their illness not the cause of it. I'm not saying that it's not possible in rare cases, but I tend to discount the possibility. Of course, I'm no expert in the field, so take my opinion on this with the appropriate grain of salt.

Cannabis should be legal for all.

[Xatrei]

The horrific plight of the recreational drug user... I'm deeply concerned.



You are right that there are ABSOLUTELY more pressing issues for almost any government.

Of course some (like me) might say that the massive amount of time, money and energy wasted on the so called War On Drugs would be better spent dealing with those more pressing and important issues. That doesn't even get into the lives ruined, or at least harmed, by our (in)justice system.

[Ashur]

I'd be interested in a debate (more from an observer aspect) about the whole "The War on Drugs being a waste of time" viewpoint versus "Let's keep people out of prisons by attacking society's ills".

If you decriminalize drug use, does that really help society as a whole?

[Xatrei]

I don't think you can have one without the other. Addressing the social and economic issues that contribute to much of the drug dependency in this country is one of those issues that I think is more pressing. Also, I'm certainly not supportive of wholesale decriminalization of heroine, meth or cocaine or encouraging dependency on those substances. I do, however, think that society would be better served by spending the money we now spend hunting, prosecuting and imprisoning drug users with education and recovery programs.

[Wulfran]

Some of this I have said before, in that I think a lot more studies need to be done on pot before legalizing it. We have anecdotal evidence from half the population of North America and Europe about how it never seemed to do much to them but we don't know things like quantities used or time periods involved: I liken this to some of the European studies on the benefits of low level alcohol use. Xatrei says "correlation doesn't prove causation" and he's right but it doesn't disprove it either, rather it indicates the a reason for more research and while we can use that "chestnut" to dismiss the study about increased mental illness and the recent one about lower and less healthy sperm counts in pot smokers (and yes heavy alcohol use has the same effect), there seems to be at the very least indications that weed isn't as innocuous as some of the claims.

I'm not saying that pot couldn't be eventually legalized and sold like tobacco or alcohol but lets be honest: our societies have dropped the ball in the past in terms of knowing long term effects and ramfications on our populations/health care systems thus I think it behooves us to treat this as we do other drugs/phamaceuticals. Once a substance is legalized and accepted culturally, restricting it again, if it is proven to be detriemental is next to impossible, as shown by the US experiment with alcohol prohibition.

[Deward]

I'll have to agree that there is really very little evidence to show that smoking cannabis causes any sort of mental illness. It might trigger the illness in some cases but those same people probably drink water. Does that mean water causes psychosis in some people? This argument has been used for years to promote the governments war on drugs. To be blunt, the government makes a lot of money busting marijuana users. They not only hit the user with fines but they can seize that user's property even if the user is eventually found innocent. There was a case in my area where a bar owner was selling weed. The police busted him and had his bar auctioned off before charges were even filed against the owner. The police don't even have to press charges. If they find pot in your car then they can confiscate your car and sell it. Cannabis busts account for a very large part of the overall drug war. Legalizing or decriminalizing it would put a severe budget cramp into the police's pockets. To make matters worse, there is almost no rehabilitation in the (in)justice system so users are very likely to get caught again.

Another point that always seems to come up is how legalizing it or decrminalizing it would hurt the children. I call bullshit on this. It is a hell of a lot easier to find pot today than it is to get cigarettes and alcohol. By regulating it along the lines of alcohol or tobacco, the government could not only tax it, I believe it would make it harder for kids to get a hold of it. Making it illegal and refusing to talk about it just makes it that much more desirable for a teenager.

[Deward]

I will always support more studies but the government (FDA) has blocked nearly all requests by researchers to do any studies involving actual cannabis.

[Fash]

A free country does not restrict a citizen from choosing what they put in their own body.

Legally, I can buy and drink bleach.. it will kill me. I've smoked marijuana for 11 years and I'm very healthy, thank you very much.

[Nick]

Well, in my friends case, it is clear as bloody crystal that weed has been a determining factor. Unfortunately, you can't see the guy, so you'll just have to take my word for it. Sorry!

I'm a pretty liberal drug advocate, by anyones standards, and for basic freedom reasons weed should be legal. As with all things I guess moderation is the key. Denying marijuana is linked with psychiatric problems in some people is like denying alcohol damages your liver or that the sky is blue.

[Funkmasterr]

Well, in my friends case, it is clear as bloody crystal that weed has been a determining factor. Unfortunately, you can't see the guy, so you'll just have to take my word for it. Sorry!

I'm a pretty liberal drug advocate, by anyones standards, and for basic freedom reasons weed should be legal. As with all things I guess moderation is the key. Denying marijuana is linked with psychiatric problems in some people is like denying alcohol damages your liver or that the sky is blue.

I think the point is you have no way to prove that your friend wouldn't have slipped over the edge at some point whether he was smoking or not. You very well could be right, but you may be wrong as well.

[Nick]

Thank you for telling me I could either be right or wrong about a situation you have zero knowledge about.

Talk about a worthless post.

[Xatrei]

Well, in my friends case, it is clear as bloody crystal that weed has been a determining factor. Unfortunately, you can't see the guy, so you'll just have to take my word for it. Sorry!

I'm a pretty liberal drug advocate, by anyones standards, and for basic freedom reasons weed should be legal. As with all things I guess moderation is the key. Denying marijuana is linked with psychiatric problems in some people is like denying alcohol damages your liver or that the sky is blue.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not excluding the possibility in your friend's specific case or other rare circumstances, or questioning the strength of your word on the subject. I'm just saying that in general, I tend to discount cannabis usage as a cause rather than a symptom.

[Fash]

Thank you for telling me I could either be right or wrong about a situation you have zero knowledge about.

You have essentially just as much useful information about the situation.

(curious you've never brought this up before in the other 700 pot discussions)

[Funkmasterr]

Thank you for telling me I could either be right or wrong about a situation you have zero knowledge about.

Talk about a worthless post.

How is that worthless? From what you have said I can gather that:

1- he is under some kind of psychiatric care;
2- you feel you have reason to believe it is due to drug use.

What I am trying to tell you is there is no possible way to say for 100% sure that this was due to drugs, weed in particular, I would be willing to bet money that this was never how he was diagnosed, either.. There isn't really a way for them to tell whether he would have snapped or not, psychological issues are often laying under the surface waiting for something to trigger them, and weed just might have been his trigger.

[Nick]

Ok Cheech, whatever you say.

[Funkmasterr]

Ok Cheech, whatever you say.

I wasn't even being combative and you can't discuss it, you just resort to your usual shit? And I'm the pathetic one

[Nick]

I'm not "resorting" to anything. I just find it ridiculous that potheads refuse to believe their wonder drug is less than perfect. (Clue: I've smoked a lot of weed in my time, some people can handle it better than others.)

Obviously in my friends case, it was a culmination of differing factors. But believe me, excessive weed smoking was one of them.

[cadalano]

no it wasnt

[Nick]

Yes it was

[Al]

I love it. I am on unemployment atm (still, if you've been keeping tabs...), and it is 6:15 AM on a Thursday. My plans for the day are: Finish this beer. Finish maybe 1-2 more. Go to sleep. Wake up (likely after 3) and get around. Go to bar for Open Mic night.

All of this is perfectly legal, but if I got caught smoking a joint on a Saturday afternoon while out fishing, I'd be looking at the minimum of a fine and my name in the news paper, not to mention getting fired, supposing I had a job.

Alcoholism = Normal (nearly encouraged) Behavior
Pot Smoking = Taboo

Nevermind that alcohol kills more people in a month than pot does in a decade...

[Knarlz]

oh my my, oh hell yes
honey put on that partydress.

It was over 35 years ago ( ! ) that I signed a petition to legilize the personal use, posession and cultivation of pot.
At the time, I was fairly sure that it would happen in about 10 years....
In the US, on a federal level it will most likely never happen.
On a state level, a few states have drastically lightened up on possision penilties ( I seem to recall that in Texas there were folks serving 20 to life for a joint ) but I don't think any will ever full on legilize it.

I think it should be legalized, regulated and tax the hell out of it.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I think it should be legalized, regulated and tax the hell out of it.

word

[Pherr the Dorf]

215 clubs started paying tax here in Cali a few months ago, revenue is expected to be between 70 and 160 million if all clubs participate in taxing their product or if you prefer 1% of our budgetary shortfall.

[masteen]

70 million in the first year is no small sum.

Now think about all money local, state, and federal agencies spend arresting and processing the 700,000 or so people busted each year for pot.

I still can't believe that the tobacco companies haven't latched onto marijuana. It requires much less processing than tobacco, can be grown almost anywhere with less spent on cultivation, and leverages their existing capital into a brand new fucking product. I want a pouch of Red Man Cannabis!

[Winnow]

I still can't believe that the tobacco companies haven't latched onto marijuana. It requires much less processing than tobacco, can be grown almost anywhere with less spent on cultivation, and leverages their existing capital into a brand new fucking product. I want a pouch of Red Man Cannabis!

I find it surprising that the tobacco companies haven't found for it's legalization more either. I guess they don't have the pull that big oil does.

[Deward]

Compared to many crops tobacco is a real bitch to grow. The weather has to be good. After you cut it (BY HAND) you have to keep it from getting wet or it ruins it. You then have to hang it up in a barn to let it dry. Only a little though or it gets too dry. After that you have to bundle it together just so, usually by hand again. Growing tobacco is like playing the lottery. You can make a lot of money if you can get it to grow and harvest properly but it is easy to fuck yourself with a rain at the wrong time.

Marijuana grows like a weed and far as I know can be machine harvested. I am a bit surprised the cigarette companies haven't pushed for it. Maybe they know that it isn't as addictive as their cancer sticks and people would buy a hell of a lot less pot than cigarettes.

[Winnow]

Marijuana grows like a weed and far as I know can be machine harvested. I am a bit surprised the cigarette companies haven't pushed for it. Maybe they know that it isn't as addictive as their cancer sticks and people would buy a hell of a lot less pot than cigarettes.

Yeah but you could sell pot for $10.00 or more a pack and cig sales are declining. If people are going to do unhealthy things, they want to get a high from it these days.

[Funkmasterr]

Compared to many crops tobacco is a real bitch to grow. The weather has to be good. After you cut it (BY HAND) you have to keep it from getting wet or it ruins it. You then have to hang it up in a barn to let it dry. Only a little though or it gets too dry. After that you have to bundle it together just so, usually by hand again. Growing tobacco is like playing the lottery. You can make a lot of money if you can get it to grow and harvest properly but it is easy to fuck yourself with a rain at the wrong time.

Marijuana grows like a weed and far as I know can be machine harvested. I am a bit surprised the cigarette companies haven't pushed for it. Maybe they know that it isn't as addictive as their cancer sticks and people would buy a hell of a lot less pot than cigarettes.

I have never personally known anyone that machine harvested weed, and I've known/know a good handful of people that have grown quite a large amount of plants.

The leaves need to be trimmed down as close as possible to the buds. The reason for this is people pay for weed weight, and personally - I won't buy weed if the person did a crappy job of trimming (if there is even 1/4" of leaves left on the bud, that's too much). I would think it would be pretty hard to do that by machine.

[Winnow]

Marijuana grows like a weed and far as I know can be machine harvested. I am a bit surprised the cigarette companies haven't pushed for it. Maybe they know that it isn't as addictive as their cancer sticks and people would buy a hell of a lot less pot than cigarettes.

Yeah but you could sell pot for $10.00 or more a pack and cig sales are declining. If people are going to do unhealthy things, they want to get a high from it these days.

You could always market "Tobacajuana"

Mix Tobacco and Pot for the cig addicts.

[masteen]

The Eurofags do this, only they mix hash with tobacco.

[Xatrei]

The plants could easily been harvested with a mechanized system, but the buds would need a lot more labor. If it was legal, I don't think it would be long before fully automated, high-capacity trimming systems would be developed. There are already power trimmers that greatly speed the grooming of buds, but many growers prefer to trim with scissors in the hands of skilled, experienced people to reduce / prevent damage to the buds. Legally grown weed wouldn't command the premium prices that illicit weed does now, so growers would be more likely to tolerate a reasonable amount of bud loss in favor of greater overall harvests. Besides, all the trimmings, leaves, etc. would all go into the hash screens, so it wouldn't be a total loss.

Also, while cannabis plants grow with relative ease, producing high quality, high THC strains requires quite a bit more TLC.

[Funkmasterr]

Marijuana grows like a weed and far as I know can be machine harvested. I am a bit surprised the cigarette companies haven't pushed for it. Maybe they know that it isn't as addictive as their cancer sticks and people would buy a hell of a lot less pot than cigarettes.

Yeah but you could sell pot for $10.00 or more a pack and cig sales are declining. If people are going to do unhealthy things, they want to get a high from it these days.

You could always market "Tobacajuana"

Mix Tobacco and Pot for the cig addicts.

This is a big thing (at least in my experience) in NY. Haze is so powerful that you don't need to roll a big blunt of it, so people will HOOKERWHORESLUT some tobacco in the blunt too so it isn't too small.

[Neost]

Legalize and everyone becomes a horticulturist. Why pay "The Man" for something I could grow myself with tender loving care and the same potency? There's no profit in it for tobacco companies if everyone can grow their own.

[Funkmasterr]

Legalize and everyone becomes a horticulturist. Why pay "The Man" for something I could grow myself with tender loving care and the same potency? There's no profit in it for tobacco companies if everyone can grow their own.

It takes a lot more time, money, space and equipment than most people would ever consider in order to grow good weed.

[Daboohk]

Legalize and everyone becomes a horticulturist. Why pay "The Man" for something I could grow myself with tender loving care and the same potency? There's no profit in it for tobacco companies if everyone can grow their own.

Just like everyone brews their own beer, grows their own tobacco, etc. etc.

[Fash]

Yeah, most people don't want to grow it, they just want to smoke it. It would be far cheaper than it is now anyways, so it would be even less cost-effective to grow it.

[Noysyrump]

You kids wanna get Hiiiggggghhhh.... ?

[Zaelath]

It was a lot of things. One of which was excessive smoking. Marijuana is known to affect and promote psychosis in a particular (low) percentage of heavy users. I went in and visited him a few times last year, there were a number of other people there with drug induced psychosis/schizophrenia as a result of heavy drug usage (ecstasy/weed/etc). The Doctors said it was fairly common.

(Not common for all users, but common for a percentage of users to then become permanently/temporary psychotic and/or schizophrenic and/or other mental illnesses).

If it wasn't weed it would have been booze, if it wasn't booze it would have been paint thinner, etc, etc. Sorry, but people are predisposed to abusing shit, and it usually doesn't matter what drug you abuse (by which I mean partake of heavily, not use in moderation, for the benefit of the nannies in the group), they all get you in the end.