Illinois Shooter Idolized Hamas.

[Noysyrump]

"Once we took a course called 'The Politics of the Middle East.' At the beginning of the course, our instructor informed us a research paper would be due by the end of the semester. Steve decided on Hamas, which is known mainly to the world as being a Palestinian terrorist group, which was the first thing that interested Steve about the group. But he also heard Hamas funded many social services, which also interested him. How could one group be put into two completely different categories, Steve would ask," she wrote.

"Unlike most of us, Steve started his research from day one, reading every book he could find on Hamas. He'd give me a status report when we saw each other in class. Steve said that his perception of Hamas changed with all the research he did," she said.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=57086

See what happens when you give murder groups a warm fuzzy outline? How much are you willing to bet, the Teacher of his Mideast Politics class told the class that Hamas was a "freedom fighting" bunch of do-gooders.

[Zaelath]

Hamas wants the Israelis to GTFO of "their country", how come if you switch American for Arab and English for Israeli does that make Mel Gibson a patriot but Hamas is a "murder group"? Give the rebs didn't conduct warfare on the English sporting terms, you can't use that as a rationale.

Also, are you the same kind of fucking nutbag that blames videogames for violence, or just a flaming hypocrite?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Hamas (حركة حماس; acronym: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية, or Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya or "Islamic Resistance Movement,"[1]) is a Palestinian Islamist[2][3] militant organization and political party. In January 2006, Hamas was elected as the government of the Palestinian Authority.[2]

Hamas was created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin of the Gaza wing of the Muslim Brotherhood at the beginning of the First Intifada. Best known in Israel and the rest of the world for its suicide bombings and other attacks[4] directed against civilians and Israeli military and security forces targets, Hamas' charter (written in 1988 and still in effect) calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.[5] The organization is widely described as antisemitic.[6]

Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada,[7] the European Union,[8] Israel,[9] Japan,[10] and the United States,[11] and is banned in Jordan.[12] Australia[13] and the United Kingdom[14] list only the militant wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization.

Since the death of Palestine Liberation Organization leader Yasser Arafat, Hamas's political wing has entered and won many local elections in Gaza, Qalqilya, and Nablus. In January 2006, Hamas won a surprise victory in the Palestinian parliamentary elections, taking 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, while the ruling Fatah party took 43.[15] The Hamas charter states: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad,"[16] and this stance has found a receptive audience among Palestinians; many perceived the preceding Fatah government as corrupt and ineffective, and Hamas's supporters see it as an "armed resistance"[17] movement defending Palestinians from the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.[18] Hamas has further gained popularity by establishing hospitals, education systems, libraries and social services[19] throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip.[20] The Palestinian territories have experienced internal conflicts for many years; since Hamas's election victory, particularly sharp infighting has occurred between Hamas and Fatah, leading to many Palestinian deaths.[21][22]

After coming to power, Hamas announced it was giving up suicide attacks and "offered a 10-year truce [with Israel] in return for a complete Israeli withdrawal from the occupied Palestinian territories: the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem."[23][24][25] Hamas also declared a unilateral ceasefire with Israel which, after Israeli air strikes in response to Hamas smuggling weapons into Gaza, was formally renounced.[26]

Following the Battle for Gaza in June 2007, when Hamas used force to take control of the Gaza Strip after Fatah refused to hand over control to the new government, elected Hamas officials were ousted from their positions in the Palestinian National Authority government in the West Bank and were replaced by rival Fatah members as well as independents.[27][28] On June 18, 2007, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (Fatah) issued a decree outlawing the Hamas militia and executive force.[1][2]

According to the US State Department, the group is funded by Iran, Palestinian expatriates, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other Arab states.[11] In a 2002 report, Human Rights Watch stated that Hamas' leaders "should be held accountable for the war crimes and crimes against humanity" that have been committed by its members.[29]

The Hamas Covenant cites The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the anti-semitic book stating it embodies a "Zionist plan" for "limitless" territorial expansion:

Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"

[Noysyrump]

Hamas wants the Israelis to GTFO of "their country", how come if you switch American for Arab and English for Israeli does that make Mel Gibson a patriot but Hamas is a "murder group"? Give the rebs didn't conduct warfare on the English sporting terms, you can't use that as a rationale.

Also, are you the same kind of fucking nutbag that blames videogames for violence, or just a flaming hypocrite?

What the....

You make as much sense as a 3 year old. Apperantly your teacher also told you that hamas were the good guys, "take up the good fight!" and go shoot someone who has nothing to do with it too then.

First off, If palastinians want Israelis out, then they should take up arms, don a uniform, and march against thier oppressors. They will then GAIN THE RESPECT AND COMPASION FROM THE CIVILIZED WORLD. But when you blow up busses full of school children, you sir are a murderer, and I will help the Israelis to round you up and shoot you, or blow you up with a missle targeted on your cell phone.

The "english sporting terms" are in fact the civilized worlds excepted form of resistance. If the french werent such pussies this terrorist thing would have died in the 40s in algiers. If you blow up people who have no direct responsibility for your 'oppresion' then you are NOT furthering your cause, you are making more enemies.

Fuck I thought the arabs/persions invented the assassin. Stick to threat of political assassination of those who are responsible. Not fuking schoolchildren or college students.

And what exactly makes me a hipocrit sir? Because I believe the civilized way of resistance is acceptable but terrorism isnt? Well then, I drather be a hippocrit than someone who blows up schoolchildren on purpose.

By the way, video game violence CURBS IRL violence. It gets it out my system, otherwise I would have already PKU IRL!~

[Zaelath]

First off, If palastinians want Israelis out, then they should take up arms, don a uniform, and march against thier oppressors. They will then GAIN THE RESPECT AND COMPASION FROM THE CIVILIZED WORLD.

I sure the british would have agreed, when your irregulars were pwning them with guerilla tactics during the war for indepenance.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

First off, If palastinians want Israelis out, then they should take up arms, don a uniform, and march against thier oppressors. They will then GAIN THE RESPECT AND COMPASION FROM THE CIVILIZED WORLD.

I sure the british would have agreed, when your irregulars were pwning them with guerilla tactics during the war for indepenance.

Surely you aren't comparing the American Revolution with the Hamas? Seriously?

[Zaelath]

First off, If palastinians want Israelis out, then they should take up arms, don a uniform, and march against thier oppressors. They will then GAIN THE RESPECT AND COMPASION FROM THE CIVILIZED WORLD.

I sure the british would have agreed, when your irregulars were pwning them with guerilla tactics during the war for indepenance.

Surely you aren't comparing the American Revolution with the Hamas? Seriously?

Well, the revolution didn't get the saturation media coverage that Hamas does, so it's hard to draw direct comparisons. However, the rebs certainly didn't follow the British's rules of engagement or play fair or generally "march up to their opposition in full dress uniform" and ask "please leave or kill me". Now did they?

Yes, Hamas is more extreme, but they've been at it a *long* time and feel free to go read Sun Tzu, but all you need to win a war is to rob the enemy of their desire to fight. Hence, they have used every tactic they can think of to make fighting against them undesireable to say the least.

Now, that doesn't mean I celebrate them or anything of the kind, but when your country (and mine) spent a good deal of it's formative years slaughtering the native population, then the British (just you there), and then each other (again just you), and now anyone that irritates you (we tag along, mate), you have a LONG way to go before you can take the high fucking moral ground over anyone that feels they "defending their country/holy ground/bitches".

[Animale]

Let's take a step back and look at the article in question here. First of all, it never says that this guy "idolized" Hamas - that's a creation by Noysy. Second of all, it merely says he had an intense academic interest in the subject due to the dichotomy presented by Hamas (and for that matter, the IRA, ETA, Northern Ireland Protestant groups, etc.) in that they are obviously violent groups who carry out attacks on civilian targets, but also to the people they represent are heroes who help women/children/poor downtrodden in a very real way through direct material assistance.

That is a topic worthy of study, as the only way to remove the power of these groups is by eliminating their base of support in the civilian populations they represent. Without understanding how that support is created and fostered, and making moves to replace that source of support with one not from that group (be it governmental support, or NGO, or whatever) you cannot win against them.

Finally, I'm offended that somehow "starting his research from day one" is a condemnable offense. He was interested and wanted to do well in the class . It's not his fault that this person (and apparently most of the class) did not desire to do as well in the course and/or were too lazy to start on the assignments earlier than they had to. And, of course his "perception of Hamas changed with all the research he did" as he was admittedly not well informed when the class started. With more information, perceptions are bound to change. That is not damning, that is merely the result of academic inquiry.

Blaming the study of Hamas in one class several years ago for this horrible act is yellow journalism at its worst. This article is less than worthless, as it has exploited the horrible circumstances to make a cheap political point. Is Hamas a "freedom fighter" movement? To us, of course not... but to the people they represent they ARE. The million dollar question is, how do we turn them from freedom fighters to marginalized crazies in the eyes of the Palestinians? Refusing to study the "hero" aspect of Hamas because they are a group who does horrible things is doing a disservice to combating their influence.

[Aabidano]

...but when your country (and mine) spent a good deal of it's formative years slaughtering the native population...

...you have a LONG way to go before you can take the high fucking moral ground...

Just like in all the "OMG religion is terrible, look at what X did in 1400!!!" debates, that someone else did it 20, 50 or 500 years ago has no bearing on the rightness or wrongness of an act.

how do we turn them from freedom fighters to marginalized crazies in the eyes of the Palestinians?

Put the Palestinian people in a position where they no longer need a hero of this type? Doing that while not rewarding or supporting murderers is the sticky bit I think.

You'll note that while every Arab country "supports" the Palestinians, and there aren't very many of them (Palestinians). Not a single one of them is willing to do much besides fan the flames if the jihad and other things that keep them right where they are. Why do you think that might be?

[Zaelath]

...but when your country (and mine) spent a good deal of it's formative years slaughtering the native population...

...you have a LONG way to go before you can take the high fucking moral ground...

Just like in all the "OMG religion is terrible, look at what X did in 1400!!!" debates, that someone else did it 20, 50 or 500 years ago has no bearing on the rightness or wrongness of an act.

Agreed. However, I'm not arguing that they are "right". I'm arguing motivation and against this comical insistance by people with the most powerful military in the world that, now they have the upper hand, people should "get in uniform and march up to them" to be slaughtered en mass, rather than employing the same basic tactics they used previously in their own history.

I know they're savage, but who is that stupid?

[Noysyrump]

...but when your country (and mine) spent a good deal of it's formative years slaughtering the native population...

...you have a LONG way to go before you can take the high fucking moral ground...

Just like in all the "OMG religion is terrible, look at what X did in 1400!!!" debates, that someone else did it 20, 50 or 500 years ago has no bearing on the rightness or wrongness of an act.

Agreed. However, I'm not arguing that they are "right". I'm arguing motivation and against this comical insistance by people with the most powerful military in the world that, now they have the upper hand, people should "get in uniform and march up to them" to be slaughtered en mass, rather than employing the same basic tactics they used previously in their own history.

I know they're savage, but who is that stupid?

Mohatma Ghandi. And well, he got what he wanted. Didnt even need to kill any school children.

[Noysyrump]

Let's take a step back and look at the article in question here. First of all, it never says that this guy "idolized" Hamas - that's a creation by Noysy.

A creation by Noisy? Heh, He must have idolized them, because he blew people the fuck up. Sure, its conjecture on my part... But he done what he done...

[Zamtuk]

no. he shot them, not blew them the fuck up. completely different. speaking in heathen terrorist terms, that is.

[Aslanna]

no. he shot them, not blew them the fuck up. completely different. speaking in heathen terrorist terms, that is.

Don't confuse him with facts. I think he's making a play for Midnyte's crown.

[Noysyrump]

no. he shot them, not blew them the fuck up. completely different. speaking in heathen terrorist terms, that is.

Don't confuse him with facts. I think he's making a play for Midnyte's crown.

Yah yah, I know he "shot" them and did not use a bomb. That was artistic liscense.


There's a crown?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

no. he shot them, not blew them the fuck up. completely different. speaking in heathen terrorist terms, that is.

Don't confuse him with facts. I think he's making a play for Midnyte's crown.

Yah yah, I know he "shot" them and did not use a bomb. That was artistic liscense.


There's a crown?

You can have it, if there is. I'm tired of it.

[Animale]

A creation by Noisy? Heh, He must have idolized them, because he blew people the fuck up. Sure, its conjecture on my part... But he done what he done...

Conjecture = creation

You made it up to increase your "point" that this kid somehow is linked intellectually with a terrorist organization, when he probably was just some mentally fucked up kid (Schizophrenic?) who lost it. Nothing less, nothing more.
Trying to make cheap political points off of tragedies like this is beyond the pale.

Animale

Edit: Spelling.

[Boogahz]

"Once we took a course called 'The Politics of the Middle East.' At the beginning of the course, our instructor informed us a research paper would be due by the end of the semester. Steve decided on Hamas, which is known mainly to the world as being a Palestinian terrorist group, which was the first thing that interested Steve about the group. But he also heard Hamas funded many social services, which also interested him. How could one group be put into two completely different categories, Steve would ask," she wrote.

"Unlike most of us, Steve started his research from day one, reading every book he could find on Hamas. He'd give me a status report when we saw each other in class. Steve said that his perception of Hamas changed with all the research he did," she said.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=57086

See what happens when you give murder groups a warm fuzzy outline? How much are you willing to bet, the Teacher of his Mideast Politics class told the class that Hamas was a "freedom fighting" bunch of do-gooders.

Maybe doing a little research on Hamas and Hezbollah would help you to learn that they are not just "murder groups."

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

"Once we took a course called 'The Politics of the Middle East.' At the beginning of the course, our instructor informed us a research paper would be due by the end of the semester. Steve decided on Hamas, which is known mainly to the world as being a Palestinian terrorist group, which was the first thing that interested Steve about the group. But he also heard Hamas funded many social services, which also interested him. How could one group be put into two completely different categories, Steve would ask," she wrote.

"Unlike most of us, Steve started his research from day one, reading every book he could find on Hamas. He'd give me a status report when we saw each other in class. Steve said that his perception of Hamas changed with all the research he did," she said.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=57086

See what happens when you give murder groups a warm fuzzy outline? How much are you willing to bet, the Teacher of his Mideast Politics class told the class that Hamas was a "freedom fighting" bunch of do-gooders.

Maybe doing a little research on Hamas and Hezbollah would help you to learn that they are not just "murder groups."

I love ya Boog, but you might want to do some research or even read what I posted earlier.

Hamas (حركة حماس; acronym: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية, or Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya or "Islamic Resistance Movement,"[1]) is a Palestinian Islamist[2][3] militant organization and political party. In January 2006, Hamas was elected as the government of the Palestinian Authority.[2]

Hamas was created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin of the Gaza wing of the Muslim Brotherhood at the beginning of the First Intifada. Best known in Israel and the rest of the world for its suicide bombings and other attacks[4] directed against civilians and Israeli military and security forces targets, Hamas' charter (written in 1988 and still in effect) calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.[5] The organization is widely described as antisemitic.[6]
Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada,[7] the European Union,[8] Israel,[9] Japan,[10] and the United States,[11] and is banned in Jordan.[12] Australia[13] and the United Kingdom[14] list only the militant wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization.

Since the death of Palestine Liberation Organization leader Yasser Arafat, Hamas's political wing has entered and won many local elections in Gaza, Qalqilya, and Nablus. In January 2006, Hamas won a surprise victory in the Palestinian parliamentary elections, taking 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, while the ruling Fatah party took 43.[15] The Hamas charter states: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad," [16] and this stance has found a receptive audience among Palestinians; many perceived the preceding Fatah government as corrupt and ineffective, and Hamas's supporters see it as an "armed resistance"[17] movement defending Palestinians from the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.[18] Hamas has further gained popularity by establishing hospitals, education systems, libraries and social services[19] throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip.[20] The Palestinian territories have experienced internal conflicts for many years; since Hamas's election victory, particularly sharp infighting has occurred between Hamas and Fatah, leading to many Palestinian deaths.[21][22]

After coming to power, Hamas announced it was giving up suicide attacks and "offered a 10-year truce [with Israel] in return for a complete Israeli withdrawal from the occupied Palestinian territories: the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem."[23][24][25] Hamas also declared a unilateral ceasefire with Israel which, after Israeli air strikes in response to Hamas smuggling weapons into Gaza, was formally renounced.[26]

Following the Battle for Gaza in June 2007, when Hamas used force to take control of the Gaza Strip after Fatah refused to hand over control to the new government, elected Hamas officials were ousted from their positions in the Palestinian National Authority government in the West Bank and were replaced by rival Fatah members as well as independents.[27][28] On June 18, 2007, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (Fatah) issued a decree outlawing the Hamas militia and executive force.[1][2]

According to the US State Department, the group is funded by Iran, Palestinian expatriates, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other Arab states.[11] In a 2002 report, Human Rights Watch stated that Hamas' leaders "should be held accountable for the war crimes and crimes against humanity" that have been committed by its members.[29]

The Hamas Covenant cites The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the anti-semitic book stating it embodies a "Zionist plan" for "limitless" territorial expansion:

Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"

And before you quote the one good thing..... Hamas has further gained popularity by establishing hospitals, education systems, libraries and social services[19] throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip.....please acknowledge that terror groups do have to do some good things to get people to elect them into offices so their power grows.

[Boogahz]

"Once we took a course called 'The Politics of the Middle East.' At the beginning of the course, our instructor informed us a research paper would be due by the end of the semester. Steve decided on Hamas, which is known mainly to the world as being a Palestinian terrorist group, which was the first thing that interested Steve about the group. But he also heard Hamas funded many social services, which also interested him. How could one group be put into two completely different categories, Steve would ask," she wrote.

"Unlike most of us, Steve started his research from day one, reading every book he could find on Hamas. He'd give me a status report when we saw each other in class. Steve said that his perception of Hamas changed with all the research he did," she said.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=57086

See what happens when you give murder groups a warm fuzzy outline? How much are you willing to bet, the Teacher of his Mideast Politics class told the class that Hamas was a "freedom fighting" bunch of do-gooders.

Maybe doing a little research on Hamas and Hezbollah would help you to learn that they are not just "murder groups."

I love ya Boog, but you might want to do some research or even read what I posted earlier.

Hamas (حركة حماس; acronym: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية, or Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya or "Islamic Resistance Movement,"[1]) is a Palestinian Islamist[2][3] militant organization and political party. In January 2006, Hamas was elected as the government of the Palestinian Authority.[2]

Hamas was created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin of the Gaza wing of the Muslim Brotherhood at the beginning of the First Intifada. Best known in Israel and the rest of the world for its suicide bombings and other attacks[4] directed against civilians and Israeli military and security forces targets, Hamas' charter (written in 1988 and still in effect) calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.[5] The organization is widely described as antisemitic.[6]
Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada,[7] the European Union,[8] Israel,[9] Japan,[10] and the United States,[11] and is banned in Jordan.[12] Australia[13] and the United Kingdom[14] list only the militant wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization.

Since the death of Palestine Liberation Organization leader Yasser Arafat, Hamas's political wing has entered and won many local elections in Gaza, Qalqilya, and Nablus. In January 2006, Hamas won a surprise victory in the Palestinian parliamentary elections, taking 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, while the ruling Fatah party took 43.[15] The Hamas charter states: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad," [16] and this stance has found a receptive audience among Palestinians; many perceived the preceding Fatah government as corrupt and ineffective, and Hamas's supporters see it as an "armed resistance"[17] movement defending Palestinians from the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.[18] Hamas has further gained popularity by establishing hospitals, education systems, libraries and social services[19] throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip.[20] The Palestinian territories have experienced internal conflicts for many years; since Hamas's election victory, particularly sharp infighting has occurred between Hamas and Fatah, leading to many Palestinian deaths.[21][22]

After coming to power, Hamas announced it was giving up suicide attacks and "offered a 10-year truce [with Israel] in return for a complete Israeli withdrawal from the occupied Palestinian territories: the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem."[23][24][25] Hamas also declared a unilateral ceasefire with Israel which, after Israeli air strikes in response to Hamas smuggling weapons into Gaza, was formally renounced.[26]

Following the Battle for Gaza in June 2007, when Hamas used force to take control of the Gaza Strip after Fatah refused to hand over control to the new government, elected Hamas officials were ousted from their positions in the Palestinian National Authority government in the West Bank and were replaced by rival Fatah members as well as independents.[27][28] On June 18, 2007, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (Fatah) issued a decree outlawing the Hamas militia and executive force.[1][2]

According to the US State Department, the group is funded by Iran, Palestinian expatriates, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other Arab states.[11] In a 2002 report, Human Rights Watch stated that Hamas' leaders "should be held accountable for the war crimes and crimes against humanity" that have been committed by its members.[29]

The Hamas Covenant cites The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the anti-semitic book stating it embodies a "Zionist plan" for "limitless" territorial expansion:

Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"

And before you quote the one good thing..... Hamas has further gained popularity by establishing hospitals, education systems, libraries and social services[19] throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip.....please acknowledge that terror groups do have to do some good things to get people to elect them into offices so their power grows.

Don't do research for him. Let him go learn on his own. I am sure there is a lot a person could learn by actually spending the time studying a subject as the person the original post was about without automatically buying what the media tells us. I would think that you, based on your past postings about the sheep believing whatever popular media puts in front of them, would agree. I do not think either organization is "good," but I think the good that they do is overshadowed by the "evil" in the US media (I obviously cannot speak for coverage elsewhere). Even during the last "war" between Israel and Lebanon, there were actually US reports on the social impact that destroying Hezbollah could have on the people of Lebanon due to the large number of public programs ran by the group.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Don't do research for him. Let him go learn on his own. I am sure there is a lot a person could learn by actually spending the time studying a subject as the person the original post was about without automatically buying what the media tells us. I would think that you, based on your past postings about the sheep believing whatever popular media puts in front of them, would agree. I do not think either organization is "good," but I think the good that they do is overshadowed by the "evil" in the US media (I obviously cannot speak for coverage elsewhere). Even during the last "war" between Israel and Lebanon, there were actually US reports on the social impact that destroying Hezbollah could have on the people of Lebanon due to the large number of public programs ran by the group.

Fair enough.