Solar Hibernation

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Solar Hibernation

Post by Fash »

http://ibdeditorial.com/IBDArticles.asp ... 9412587175
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 4:20 PM PT

Climate Change: Not every scientist is part of Al Gore's mythical "consensus." Scientists worried about a new ice age seek funding to better observe something bigger than your SUV — the sun.

Back in 1991, before Al Gore first shouted that the Earth was in the balance, the Danish Meteorological Institute released a study using data that went back centuries that showed that global temperatures closely tracked solar cycles.

To many, those data were convincing. Now, Canadian scientists are seeking additional funding for more and better "eyes" with which to observe our sun, which has a bigger impact on Earth's climate than all the tailpipes and smokestacks on our planet combined.

And they're worried about global cooling, not warming.


Kenneth Tapping, a solar researcher and project director for Canada's National Research Council, is among those looking at the sun for evidence of an increase in sunspot activity.

Solar activity fluctuates in an 11-year cycle. But so far in this cycle, the sun has been disturbingly quiet. The lack of increased activity could signal the beginning of what is known as a Maunder Minimum, an event which occurs every couple of centuries and can last as long as a century.

Such an event occurred in the 17th century. The observation of sunspots showed extraordinarily low levels of magnetism on the sun, with little or no 11-year cycle.

This solar hibernation corresponded with a period of bitter cold that began around 1650 and lasted, with intermittent spikes of warming, until 1715. Frigid winters and cold summers during that period led to massive crop failures, famine and death in Northern Europe.

Tapping reports no change in the sun's magnetic field so far this cycle and warns that if the sun remains quiet for another year or two, it may indicate a repeat of that period of drastic cooling of the Earth, bringing massive snowfall and severe weather to the Northern Hemisphere.

Tapping oversees the operation of a 60-year-old radio telescope that he calls a "stethoscope for the sun." But he and his colleagues need better equipment.

In Canada, where radio-telescopic monitoring of the sun has been conducted since the end of World War II, a new instrument, the next-generation solar flux monitor, could measure the sun's emissions more rapidly and accurately.

As we have noted many times, perhaps the biggest impact on the Earth's climate over time has been the sun.

For instance, researchers at the Max Planck Institute for Solar Research in Germany report the sun has been burning more brightly over the last 60 years, accounting for the 1 degree Celsius increase in Earth's temperature over the last 100 years.

R. Timothy Patterson, professor of geology and director of the Ottawa-Carleton Geoscience Center of Canada's Carleton University, says that "CO2 variations show little correlation with our planet's climate on long, medium and even short time scales."

Rather, he says, "I and the first-class scientists I work with are consistently finding excellent correlations between the regular fluctuations of the sun and earthly climate. This is not surprising. The sun and the stars are the ultimate source of energy on this planet."

Patterson, sharing Tapping's concern, says: "Solar scientists predict that, by 2020, the sun will be starting into its weakest Schwabe cycle of the past two centuries, likely leading to unusually cool conditions on Earth."

"Solar activity has overpowered any effect that CO2 has had before, and it most likely will again," Patterson says. "If we were to have even a medium-sized solar minimum, we could be looking at a lot more bad effects than 'global warming' would have had."


In 2005, Russian astronomer Khabibullo Abdusamatov made some waves — and not a few enemies in the global warming "community" — by predicting that the sun would reach a peak of activity about three years from now, to be accompanied by "dramatic changes" in temperatures.

A Hoover Institution Study a few years back examined historical data and came to a similar conclusion.

"The effects of solar activity and volcanoes are impossible to miss. Temperatures fluctuated exactly as expected, and the pattern was so clear that, statistically, the odds of the correlation existing by chance were one in 100," according to Hoover fellow Bruce Berkowitz.

The study says that "try as we might, we simply could not find any relationship between industrial activity, energy consumption and changes in global temperatures."

The study concludes that if you shut down all the world's power plants and factories, "there would not be much effect on temperatures."


But if the sun shuts down, we've got a problem. It is the sun, not the Earth, that's hanging in the balance.
How dare anyone question global warming!! This is a travesty! You mean to tell me the data on sun and volcano activity clearly explain our temperature variations, and we're in more danger of cooling because of the sun??? I'm not buying it.

/sarcasm-off
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Re: Solar Hibernation

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That website is terrible.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Animale »

Oh boy, another economist pointing out that there are dissenting voices in a scientific field - therefore the entire premise must be invalid!

Kind of like preachers saying that evolution is invalid because it's "just a theory" and that biologists argue over the mechanism of said event.

Yawn

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Re: Solar Hibernation

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You don't subscribe to 'global warming'. We get it already.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

It's not about his stance he is trying to put out there. It's about trying to show you faith mongers that maybe just maybe your belief in your God might be inaccurate. You just might be being lead down a path lead by the preachers of Global Warming that is inaccurate.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Funkmasterr »

Animale wrote:Oh boy, another economist pointing out that there are dissenting voices in a scientific field - therefore the entire premise must be invalid!

Kind of like preachers saying that evolution is invalid because it's "just a theory" and that biologists argue over the mechanism of said event.

Yawn

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Oh boy, another blind global warming "scientist" ignoring the constant flow of bullshit cards being thrown at his precious theory. We also get your point, you think you know it all, even though there are just as many scientists that disagree with what you believe as agree, you think your opinion is superior. You are one of the most obnoxious people on this board, next to maybe nick.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Animale »

Funkmasterr wrote:
Animale wrote:Oh boy, another economist pointing out that there are dissenting voices in a scientific field - therefore the entire premise must be invalid!

Kind of like preachers saying that evolution is invalid because it's "just a theory" and that biologists argue over the mechanism of said event.

Yawn

Animale

Oh boy, another blind global warming "scientist" ignoring the constant flow of bullshit cards being thrown at his precious theory. We also get your point, you think you know it all, even though there are just as many scientists that disagree with what you believe as agree, you think your opinion is superior. You are one of the most obnoxious people on this board, next to maybe nick.
You just hate it when I'm right (which is more often than you). Kissy kissy!

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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Fash »

When have you been right?... I'm drawing a blank.

You're a fucking gLOLbal warming sheep, dude.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Funkmasterr »

Yeah, I must have totally not been here for the whole "you were right" part. Wanna fill me in?
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Re: Solar Hibernation

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Iraq War and the repercussions - Check
Patriot Act's Excesses - Check
Global Warming IPCC report - Check (you read it yet by the way - even the Bush administration is finally admitting that it is the science that we need to lead policy with, not the economics)
Funkmasterr is an idiot - Check?

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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Fash »

Animale wrote: Global Warming IPCC report - Check (you read it yet by the way - even the Bush administration is finally admitting that it is the science that we need to lead policy with, not the economics)
Sorry but this is the equivalent of a Scientologist telling you to read Dianetics to prove their point. It's bullshit, and you swallowed it whole. As a scientist, you should be ashamed.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Funkmasterr »

Animale wrote:Iraq War and the repercussions - Check
Patriot Act's Excesses - Check
Global Warming IPCC report - Check (you read it yet by the way - even the Bush administration is finally admitting that it is the science that we need to lead policy with, not the economics)
Funkmasterr is an idiot - Check?

Animale
You have presented opinions on all of those, liberal opinions which are highly supported here on VV which gives you a feeling of empowerment and of being correct. It's too bad your intelligence doesn't measure up to your ego.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

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Fash wrote:
Animale wrote: Global Warming IPCC report - Check (you read it yet by the way - even the Bush administration is finally admitting that it is the science that we need to lead policy with, not the economics)
Sorry but this is the equivalent of a Scientologist telling you to read Dianetics to prove their point. It's bullshit, and you swallowed it whole. As a scientist, you should be ashamed.
Umm... what? Actually read the report you nitwit... it contains the evidence, the studies, AND the counterpoints. It's actually a science paper, instead of just some economists opinion on how these three guys think something else is going on. Quite frankly - if you refuse to read the IPCC then stop posting this bullshit about "how it's wrong." If you can't read it to understand it (which you have to be pretty ignorant to not follow the summary report at the very least) then I cannot help you.

It's not a fucking bible, it doesn't contain unsubstantiated statements. Everything within it has studies/evidence OR IT WOULDN'T BE IN THERE. To call this Dianetics is an inflammatory bullshit strawman. Go read the report or you have no credibility.

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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Fash »

I've read it, more than once, since we started all these arguments. I don't know why you keep telling me to read it as if you think it's going to change my mind. I've read it and I do not believe the science behind it is sound. On top of that, the proposed solutions are more harmful.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

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Which part of the science do you think is not sound? Curious, maybe we can talk about why you think that and have a substantive discussion on it.

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Re: Solar Hibernation

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The bit I love most is, that it's the same people who discredit religion as "bad for mankind" yet they've taken a druidic stance on worshipping the global warming god.

Druids. All of you. Go kite something.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Animale wrote:Which part of the science do you think is not sound? Curious, maybe we can talk about why you think that and have a substantive discussion on it.

Animale

Do not answer this fuckwad. You and many others have already explained our stance on the religion of Gloabl Warming numerous times. Go look in the past threads Animale if you actually care that much.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

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Animale wrote:Which part of the science do you think is not sound? Curious, maybe we can talk about why you think that and have a substantive discussion on it.

Animale


Oh oh... can I?

Burning of fossil fuels creates 2 main gasses. H2O and CO2. The druids believe that co2 is killing the earth. yet h2o has a much LARGER effect on holding heat in the atmosphere. If you doubt that, travel to the amazon, spend a day and night, notice how little the temp drops. Then head east to the sahara, notice the days are hot, but the lack of water in the air lets all the heat go away at night, and you freeze your balls off (even with all this extra co2 we must have). Yet even with all these fuels we burn, the amount of water released is NOTHING compared to what is in it from the oceans.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Animale »

Read pages 271-274 of the IPCC report (Ch. 3 of working group 1). It discusses tropospheric water vapour (their spelling if you are trying to look it up in the IPCC index) in detail. Basically, tropospheric water has been rising since we've began measuring it, corresponding neatly with the rise in temperatures observed during this time. This is a chicken/egg thing - but since the sources of humidity in the upper atmosphere are not currently 100% understood they suggest a few things including jet exhaust, methane oxidation (methane is largely anthropogenic), volcanoes, etc. etc. However no consensus on the meaning of this data has been made - although it is included in many of the models.

Also, a more basic explanation of water vapor is on page 115 and 116 (Ch. 1, of WG1), where they outline how water vapor is important in equatorial regions, but less important in other areas of the world where it is lower - therefore the total "greenhouse effect" for water is concentrated - whereas that of CO2 has a more global reach since it's effect is everywhere. Basically, everything is in feedback loops, and small increases in CO2 actually increases water vapor by increasing the temperatures slightly (again in the models) - particularly in the polar regions where atmospheric water vapor is quite low naturally.

So, you're "they don't include water!!!" arguments are largely based on the 2001 IPCC report which did neglect water somewhat. However, the 2007 report directly includes it in most models (and the ones that include it actually come out WORSE than the ones which omit it), and considers it's effect where it isn't directly included in the calculations.

Next,
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Animale »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Animale wrote:Which part of the science do you think is not sound? Curious, maybe we can talk about why you think that and have a substantive discussion on it.

Animale

Do not answer this fuckwad. You and many others have already explained our stance on the religion of Gloabl Warming numerous times. Go look in the past threads Animale if you actually care that much.
Bite me you ignorant asshole. Don't mess up this thread if you don't want to bother reading the report. If you actually want to learn crap then ask reasonable questions about the report and I'll actually spend some time looking up the answers - in general most of your so-called objections are addressed within the report in some manner. It's not like they ignored criticism in drawing this thing up, they considered it and in many cases responded to it in a direct manner.

Animale

p.s. Pardon the back to back posting.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

I feel so sorry for you.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

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Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I feel so sorry for you.
Don't let that take up a lot of your day, most of us wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Nick »

Uneducated, bitter wannabe intellectuals like Midnyte, Funk and Fash have a mistaken tendency to think their unscientific guesswork is of equal worth to considered scientific opinion.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by archeiron »

I struggle to find any correlation between CO2 levels and global temperatures on geological time (see below)

Figure 1 is the fluctuation in temperature over the past 600M years:
Wikipedia wrote:Image
Figure 2 is the fluctuation in C02 levels over the past 600M years:
USCD wrote:Image
Since of the Earth's atmosphere is out-of-balance with the conditions expected from simple chemical equilibrium, it is very hard to say what precisely sets the level of the carbon dioxide content in the air throughout geologic time. While scientists are fairly certain that a 100 million years ago carbon dioxide values were many times higher than now, the exact value is in doubt. In very general terms, long-term reconstructions of atmospheric CO2 levels going back in time show that 500 million years ago atmospheric CO2 was some 20 times higher than present values. It dropped, then rose again some 200 million years ago to 4-5 times present levels--a period that saw the rise of giant fern forests--and then continued a slow decline until recent pre-industrial time.
Do I think that greenhouse gas emissions are hurting our environment? Absolutely.
Do I think that greenhouse gas emissions are causing global warming? It is probably not the root cause given the lack of any correlation between C02 levels and global temperatures in the charts above.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

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Nick wrote:Uneducated, bitter wannabe intellectuals like Midnyte, Funk and Fash have a mistaken tendency to think their unscientific guesswork is of equal worth to considered scientific opinion.

Goddamned it. I never get any love.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

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Fash wrote:
Animale wrote: Global Warming IPCC report - Check (you read it yet by the way - even the Bush administration is finally admitting that it is the science that we need to lead policy with, not the economics)
Sorry but this is the equivalent of a Scientologist telling you to read Dianetics to prove their point. It's bullshit, and you swallowed it whole. As a scientist, you should be ashamed.

Rofl.

That's golden.

"As a scientist, you should be ashamed"

lol.

I'm ashamed of you, not as a scientist, not even as a human, but rather, as a primate...
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Fash »

Xyun wrote: Rofl.

That's golden.

"As a scientist, you should be ashamed"

lol.

I'm ashamed of you, not as a scientist, not even as a human, but rather, as a primate...
He's the scientist and I referred to him as such, primate.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Winnow »

There are a few people on this board that actually know stuff. (I'm talking about hard science)

You know how there is hard science fiction and "out of this world" science fiction? When it comes to the near future, I prefer the views of those that are dealing with "hard science".
Hard science fiction is a category of science fiction characterized by an emphasis on scientific or technical detail, or on scientific accuracy, or on both.[1][2] The term was first used in print in 1957 by P. Schuyler Miller in a review of John W. Campbell, Jr.'s Islands of Space in Astounding Science Fiction.[3][4][5] The complementary term soft science fiction (formed by analogy to "hard science fiction"[6]) first appeared in the late 1970s as a way of describing science fiction in which science is not featured, or violates the scientific understanding at the time of writing.
When discussing the origins of the pyramids and other ancient (human) history, I'll tend to let more speculation creep in.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Arborealus »

archeiron wrote:I struggle to find any correlation between CO2 levels and global temperatures on geological time (see below)

Figure 1 is the fluctuation in temperature over the past 600M years:
Wikipedia wrote:Image
Figure 2 is the fluctuation in C02 levels over the past 600M years:
USCD wrote:Image
Since of the Earth's atmosphere is out-of-balance with the conditions expected from simple chemical equilibrium, it is very hard to say what precisely sets the level of the carbon dioxide content in the air throughout geologic time. While scientists are fairly certain that a 100 million years ago carbon dioxide values were many times higher than now, the exact value is in doubt. In very general terms, long-term reconstructions of atmospheric CO2 levels going back in time show that 500 million years ago atmospheric CO2 was some 20 times higher than present values. It dropped, then rose again some 200 million years ago to 4-5 times present levels--a period that saw the rise of giant fern forests--and then continued a slow decline until recent pre-industrial time.
Do I think that greenhouse gas emissions are hurting our environment? Absolutely.
Do I think that greenhouse gas emissions are causing global warming? It is probably not the root cause given the lack of any correlation between C02 levels and global temperatures in the charts above.
Ermm flip the charts so time is going the same direction and put the x axis on the same scale...

Also note that sigma 18 O includes O in CO2....we arent talking about stable O2 here...
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Fash »

Please direct your attention to this video series by Bob Carter:

"An Analysis of the Facts of Climate Change"
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Fash wrote:Please direct your attention to this video series by Bob Carter:

"An Analysis of the Facts of Climate Change"
Yes, but did you read the IPCC report? You stupid muther fucker!
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Nick »

Jesus you're a thick fuck.

So lots of scientists are stupid, but this paleontologist is totally right? right?
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Nick wrote:Jesus you're a thick fuck.

So lots of scientists are stupid, but this paleontologist is totally right? right?
Someday, you might understand that it is your statement that we don't agree with. So lots of scientists are stupid, but this paleontologist is totally right? right?

No. That is exactly what we are trying to get across to you. Do you propose that all of the scientists that disagree with the Global Warming scam are stupid and only those who buy into it are totally right?

None of us feel any one is totally wrong or right. We just choose not to pick the same side of the argument you have and go running full steam ahead into the wall of global warming.
Last edited by Midnyte_Ragebringer on February 13, 2008, 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Nick »

Picking a side in a scientific argument between actual scientists and a paleontology lecturer is fair enough, just bear in mind one side is informed and the other isn't.

Also, religion requres faith, it seems like your ilk are much more prone to religious zealotry than those who simply observe the data and watch things progress without going "OMG ITS A HOEZX". Skepticism is fine, outright blind faith in a zealous denial of scientific finding is another thing entirely.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Fash »

It's not about any of that... This guy just happens to put it as I do, that we are 'agnostic about human driven global warming', that all scientists are supposed to be skeptics, that the empirical data doesn't seem to prove there is anything unusual going on, and that the proposed solutions are 'feel-good' wastes of money.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Fash wrote:It's not about any of that... This guy just happens to put it as I do, that we are 'agnostic about human driven global warming', that all scientists are supposed to be skeptics, that the empirical data doesn't seem to prove there is anything unusual going on, and that the proposed solutions are 'feel-good' wastes of money.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Animale »

Fash wrote:It's not about any of that... This guy just happens to put it as I do, that we are 'agnostic about human driven global warming', that all scientists are supposed to be skeptics, that the empirical data doesn't seem to prove there is anything unusual going on, and that the proposed solutions are 'feel-good' wastes of money.
Scientists are supposed to be skeptics to a point, but if we always questioned everything fully nothing would move forward. It's the great conundrum of science... at what point is the evidence good enough to make the next step? It would just be a humongous circle-jerk if everybody only repeated everybody else's work.

That being said, the deep history of the earth's climate remains poorly understood. Obviously we can't stick a thermometer up time's ass, so we have to go off of proxies such as Oxygen labeling, ice cores, etc. etc. What those say as seen in this data and in the IPCC report (it does have a section on this by the way, chapter 6 of the 1st working group is entitled "Palaeoclimate")

From the executive summary of that chapter
Palaeoclimate model simulations are broadly consistent with the reconstructed NH temperatures over the past 1 kyr. The rise in surface temperatures since 1950 very likely cannot be reproduced without including anthropogenic greenhouse gases in the model forcings, and it is very unlikely that this warming was merely a recovery from a pre-20th century cold period.
Also, of interest to the "it's the orbit/sun" is another excerpt from the same section.

It is virtually certain that global temperatures during coming centuries will not be significantly influenced by a natural orbitally induced cooling. It is very unlikely that the Earth would naturally enter another ice age for at least 30 kyr.
Now, that's not saying that the things this fellow says about the Palaeoclimate aren't fully researched, but understand that the 30+ scientists who contributed to the report (He isn't one of them by the way) concluded differently from him. So, as skeptical scientists, who do we place our support and belief since we aren't members of the field? I tend to choose the folks who wrote a STRONGLY peer reviewed article that has a multi-national backing and references 14+ pages of scientific literature... and not a lone Oceanic Palaeontologist whose Science article says that his data more or less matches that cited in the report.

But if you want to place more weight on his conclusions then that's your prerogative as a skeptic.

Animale

P.S.
That being said, there are quite a few "feel-good" programs suggested by governments in the Executive Summary that I don't agree with. Policy and science are not the same thing, and bad/weak policy does not change that Global Warming most likely is occurring, and is most likely mankind-driven. I personally think that the solutions put forward do not go anywhere near far enough, both on the research side and on the usage side... but my opinion on the policy matter is admittedly on the left side of the Gaussian curve.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Fash »

I like what this guy has to say...

http://www.counterpunch.com/bryce02082008.html
Beyond Group Think on Climate Change
If More CO2 is Bad ... Then What?

By ROBERT BRYCE

When it comes to the science of global climate change, I'm an agnostic.

I've seen Al Gore's movie, and I've read reports from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. I've interviewed some of America's top climate scientists. I've also read what the "skeptics" have to say.

I don't know who's right. Now that Gore has won the Nobel Peace Prize, it seems that--at least for now--the skeptics are losing the public-relations war. Whatever. For me, in many ways, the science no longer matters, because it has become so rancorous and so politicized. The pro-Gore faction insists the anthropogenic debate has been "settled," that no additional discussion is needed. The anti-Gore faction says the current period of warming could be the result of the natural variation in the weather cycle, sunspots, or any number of other things.

Again, I no longer care much about the science. To me, the central question, and the one that few are willing to discuss in depth, is: Then what?

That is, if political leaders agree with Gore and others who believe too much carbon dioxide is bad, then what are we going to do? Fossil fuels now provide about 85% of the world's total energy needs. Even more important is this corollary: Increasing energy consumption equals higher living standards. Always. Everywhere. Given that fact, how can we expect the people of the world--all 6.6 billion of them--to use less energy? The short answer: we can't.


Yes, that's an unpopular conclusion--particularly for those on the liberal/left. Anyone who dares to question the group think about global warming is immediately branded as a heretic/sellout/ignoramus or worse. Questioning the IPCC's conclusions can be a bad career move for scientists who study climate. Intellectuals or journalists who question Gore or the IPCC are pilloried with the implication being that they must be employed by Exxon Mobil or the coal lobby for daring to question the gospel according to Al.

Some of the nastiest emails I have ever received came after writing a piece for Counterpunch a few months ago in which I pointed out that one of the claims in Gore's movie--that "you can even reduce your carbon emissions to zero"--is just flat wrong. (See "Al Gore's Wacky Facts" from October 16, 2007.)

The nasty emails used to bother me. (If you don't like this essay or my conclusions, please spare me the trouble of deleting your screeds.) Not anymore. I no longer care about the left-right/liberal-conservative distinction. I'm tired of the political correctness game. When it comes to energy issues, I'm a liberal who's been mugged by the laws of thermodynamics. And those laws have turned me into a realist about energy issues. For years, I ignored the immutable laws of thermodynamics. But in the course of writing my upcoming book, Gusher of Lies: The Dangerous Delusions of "Energy Independence," I had to pay attention. And in doing so, I was forced to accept the fact that there are no silver bullets, no easy answers, when it comes to energy.

Thus, when it comes to global warming and energy consumption, there are three main issues to be addressed: technology, morality, and the scale of global energy use. First, technology: When asked what needs to be done to slow carbon-dioxide emissions, one of the first answers is, "We'll use energy more efficiently." This is the mantra of green guru Amory Lovins, who, for decades, has been the darling of the Green/Left. For Lovins and his apostles, in energy efficiency lies the salvation of civilization.

There's no doubt that increased energy efficiency is a good thing. But it won't necessarily result in lower energy consumption. That fact has been proven repeatedly since 1865, when William Stanley Jevons, a British economist, published his most famous book, The Coal Question, which analyzed energy-consumption trends in Britain. In describing what is now known as the Jevons Paradox, he wrote: "It is wholly a confusion of ideas to suppose that the economical use of fuels is equivalent to a diminished consumption. The very contrary is the truth." The paradox is illustrated by recent energy-consumption trends in the U.S. Since 1950, the amount of gross domestic product produced per unit of energy consumed has doubled--and yet during that same time span, energy consumption in the U.S. has risen threefold. Numerous other examples of the Jevons Paradox are easily found.


The other knee-jerk response from the Greens to global warming is: Use more wind and solar power and more biofuels. Wind and solar are nice. (I have 3,200 watts of photovoltaic panels on the roof of my house.) But they are incurably intermittent. Until there is a major technological breakthrough that can store large amounts of electricity, that intermittency will severely restrict the ability of wind and solar to provide much more than single-digit percentages of the world's electricity needs. We use fossil fuels precisely because they have very high energy density--that is, they contain lots of heat energy in concentrated form; wind and solar do not. And even should there be a major breakthrough in wind and solar, Vaclav Smil, a distinguished professor of geography at the University of Manitoba who has spent most of his career writing about energy, warns, "Energy transitions span generations and not, microprocessor-like, years or even months: there is no Moore's law for energysystems." (Moore's law, after Intel co-founder Gordon E. Moore, refers to the historical tendency of computing components to double in capacity every two years.)

As for the promise of biofuels: Forget it. The outrages of the corn-ethanol scam and the many deleterious effects of biodiesel production are well-documented. Even if the U.S. turned all of its corn (about 10.5 billion bushels were produced in 2006) into ethanol, that process would only provide about 6% of America's oil needs. If the U.S. turned all of its soybeans into biodiesel, it would only provide about 1.5% of America's oil needs. As for the incredible hype about cellulosic ethanol, get real. The commercial viability of cellulosic ethanol is the energy world's equivalent of the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy--lots of people believe in it, but no one has ever seen it. And even if a breakthrough in cellulosic ethanol production happens in the next few years, it will take decades for the process to become mature enough to supply significant quantities of fuel to the domestic market.

The second key aspect of the global warming issue is a moral one. Today, 1.6 billion people do not have access to electricity in their homes. Some 2.5 billion people use wood, dung, or other biomass to meet their cooking energy needs. According to the World Health Organization, about 1.3 million people per year, most of them women and children, die because of the pollution caused by indoor biomass stoves. Only HIV/AIDS, malnutrition, and lack of clean drinking water and sanitation are greater health threats than the problems of polluted indoor air.

As Fatih Birol, the chief economist for the International Energy Agency, has declared: "Decisive policy action is needed urgently to accelerate energy development in poor countries as part of the broader process of human development. We cannot simply sit back and wait for the world's poorest regions to become sufficiently rich to afford modern energy services. ... Access to energy is a prerequisite to human development."

The developed countries of the world can talk forever about the virtues of solar panels and windmills, but what the energy-poor need most are common fuels like kerosene, propane, and gasoline. And just like us, they want reliable electricity. The people in the industrialized countries have a moral obligation to help the energy-poor get cheap, reliable energy. And it is undeniable that the cheapest and most reliable forms of energy, for now, and for the foreseeable future, are fossil fuels.

The final issue is the enormous quantity of energy involved. Consider the world's six most populous countries: China, India, the U.S., Indonesia, Brazil, and Pakistan. The 300 million residents of the U.S. consume nearly as much energy as the other five (the Big Five) combined. But according to British Petroleum's 2007 Statistical Review, between 2000 and 2006, America's total energy consumption was essentially flat--at about 17 billion barrels of oil equivalent per year.

Meanwhile, energy consumption in the Big Five is soaring. Between 2000 and 2006, the energy use in the Big Five--which have a combined population of about 3 billion people--increased by about 5% per year. So while U.S. energy consumption may stay flat or rise slightly over the next decade or two, energy use (the vast majority of which will come from fossil fuels) in the Big Five will double over the next 14 years or so.

The belief that the world can drastically cut global carbon-dioxide emissions at a time when about half of the people on the planet are still living in relative energy poverty borders on fantasy. Moreover, the industrialized countries in general, and the U.S. in particular, have no moral standing from which to tell the developing countries that they should slow the growth of their energy consumption.

Bringing hundreds of millions of people out of energy poverty--and, thus, into higher standards of living--means providing them with access to cheap, plentiful energy. Like it or not, that largely means fossil fuels, and increased use of fossil fuels will mean further increases in carbon-dioxide emissions. And the hard truth is that the people of the world are going to have to adapt to whatever happens next with regard to the world's climate--regardless of the causes of those changes.
I've repeatedly attacked the solutions that are being discussed, and said that if those are the solutions then we're better off putting on some sunglasses and waiting to be burned alive by the sun.

Animale, I know you do not support the solutions, either... You separate the policy from the science and that is good... Take the science out of it: what if there is no possible policy that can realistically have a greater positive impact than its negatives?

Add to that the fact there is no consensus, as there is quite the cacophony of alternate opinions, and I don't see how anyone can be so intensely dogmatic about this.
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Re: Solar Hibernation

Post by Animale »

We need to invest heavily in the basic science of solar fuel generation. He says it himself in this article.
Until there is a major technological breakthrough that can store large amounts of electricity, that intermittency will severely restrict the ability of wind and solar to provide much more than single-digit percentages of the world's electricity needs.
That is what my current science is all about. It is a HARD problem, one which we don't really have the scientific answers to yet. How do we transfer the energy of photons (especially visible-light photons which aren't terribly energy rich) in multiple steps to make a fuel. One half of the reaction is making oxygen from water, which takes 4 photons. Right now we only have a rudimentary understanding of how to do ONE photon reactions. The other half of the reaction, protons to hydrogen (2 photon) (or CO2 to CO, CH3OH - 2, or 6 photon) doesn't even have any catalysts that match up with the energy given from the solar spectrum yet.

Yet, the current budget only funds 1 research center dedicated to solar fuel research... at 5 million dollars a year. That is half of what was budgeted, and the remaining 5 centers were completely cut from DoEnergy's budget. As much as people say they "want to do something," the money necessary to actually DO SOMETHING isn't there. While this fellow is outlining how we can't get there now as a message for the status quo, I believe it says that the urgency to up basic science spending on photon-driven reactions can never be higher. Hopefully, someday we'll be able to say "this is how it CAN be done" and start making devices to store the energy of the sun into a liquid fuel.

Until then people pointing out that "we don't know how or what to do to solve the problem" as an argument for doing nothing get nothing but a scoff from me. We do know the what (we need to turn photon energy into liquid fuel), but we don't yet know the how... largely because not enough smart people are thinking about it do to lack of sustained funding from the government. Hopefully that will change in the near future before it's too late.

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