Supreme Court could take on 2nd Amendment case

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Supreme Court could take on 2nd Amendment case

Post by Fash »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071111/ap_ ... tus_guns_5
WASHINGTON - Supreme Court justices have track records that make predicting their rulings on many topics more than a mere guess. Then there is the issue of the Second Amendment and guns, about which the court has said virtually nothing in nearly 70 years.

That could change in the next few months.

The justices are facing a decision about whether to hear an appeal from city officials in Washington, D.C., wanting to keep the capital's 31-year ban on handguns. A lower court struck down the ban as a violation of the Second Amendment rights of gun ownership.

The prospect that the high court might define gun rights under the Constitution is making people on both sides of the issue nervous.

"I wouldn't be confident on either side," said Mark Tushnet, a Harvard Law School professor and author of a new book on the battle over guns in the United States.

The court could announce as early as Tuesday whether it will hear the case.

The main issue before the justices is whether the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to own guns or instead spells out the collective right of states to maintain militias. The former interpretation would permit fewer restrictions on gun ownership.

The Second Amendment reads: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."


The federal appeals court for the District of Columbia was the first federal panel to strike down a gun-control law based on individual rights. The court ruled in favor of Dick Anthony Heller, an armed security guard whose application to keep a handgun at home was denied by the district.

Most other U.S. courts have said the Second Amendment does not contain a right to have a gun for purely private purposes.

Chicago has a similar handgun ban, but few other gun-control laws are as strict as the district's.

Four states — Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland and New York — are urging the Supreme Court to take the case because broad application of the appeals court ruling would threaten "all federal and state laws restricting access to firearms."

The district said its law, passed in 1976, was enacted by local elected officials who believed it was a sensible way to save lives. The law also requires residents to keep shotguns and rifles unloaded and disassembled or fitted with trigger locks.

The city's appeal asks the court to look only at the handgun ban because local law allows possession of other firearms.

Critics say the law has done little to curb violence, mainly because guns obtained legally from the district or through illegal means still are readily available.


Although the city's homicide rate has declined dramatically since peaking in the early 1990s, it ranks among the nation's highest, with 169 killings in 2006.

Heller said Washington remains a dangerous place to live. "People need not stand by and die," he said in court papers.

He said the Second Amendment gives him the right to keep working guns, including handguns, in his home for his own protection.

The last time the court examined the meaning of the Second Amendment was in a 1939 case in which two men claimed the amendment gave them the right to have sawed-off shotguns. A unanimous court ruled against them.

Gun control advocates say the 1939 decision in U.S. v. Miller settled the issue in favor of a collective right. Gun rights proponents say the decision has been misconstrued.

Chief Justice John Roberts has said the question has not been resolved by the Supreme Court. The 1939 decision "sidestepped" the issue of whether the Second Amendment right is individual or collective, Roberts said at his confirmation hearing in 2005.

"That's still very much an open issue," Roberts said.

Both the district government and Heller want the high court to take the case. The split among the appeals courts and the importance of the issue make it likely that the justices will do so, Tushnet said.

The case is District of Columbia v. Heller, 07-290.
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Re: Supreme Court could take on 2nd Amendment case

Post by Siji »

It's laughable to think that anyone would seriously think you could take guns away from americans these days.
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Re: Supreme Court could take on 2nd Amendment case

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I think they should be allowed to carry all the flintlock rifles they can find. I'm not sure if the people who drafted that wording were smart enough to predict the mp5.
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Re: Supreme Court could take on 2nd Amendment case

Post by Fash »

I think they were more concerned with allowing the public to maintain some possibility of being able to revolt and take over the government, if it were necessary. However, I don't think they could've predicted how lazy and sheep-like the country would get.
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Re: Supreme Court could take on 2nd Amendment case

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Fash wrote:I think they were more concerned with allowing the public to maintain some possibility of being able to revolt and take over the government, if it were necessary. However, I don't think they could've predicted how lazy and sheep-like the country would get.
The idea that a militia could over throw your government makes me giggle like Homer Simpson.
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Re: Supreme Court could take on 2nd Amendment case

Post by Boogahz »

Zaelath wrote:
Fash wrote:I think they were more concerned with allowing the public to maintain some possibility of being able to revolt and take over the government, if it were necessary. However, I don't think they could've predicted how lazy and sheep-like the country would get.
The idea that a militia could over throw your government makes me giggle like Homer Simpson.
I bet the British Empire did the same!
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Re: Supreme Court could take on 2nd Amendment case

Post by Sueven »

I think that the second amendment is kind of hilarious, because:

Scalia and those who follow his philosophies espouse original meaning (or original understanding, depending on the originalist) as the be-all and end-all of constitutional interpretation. This means that when an originalist (like Scalia or anyone else supported by political conservatives these days) is, for example, trying to figure out whether a right to have homosexual sex is encompassed within the right to "liberty" guaranteed by the constitution, he asks "would the average person in 1787 have understood 'liberty' to encompass homosexual sex" (if he's an original meaning sort) or "did the framers intend 'liberty' to encompass homosexual sex" (if he's an original understanding sort). The fact that our notion of 'liberty' has evolved in the last 220 years is totally irrelevant according to this philosophy, the meaning of the words is fixed at the time of framing, and we would have to amend the constitution if we wanted it to protect 'liberty' as we currently understand it.

In this case, I think it's fairly likely that the Supreme Court will affirm (meaning strike down the gun ban) if they grant cert (although Mark Tushnet doesn't seem so sure, and he co-wrote my con law textbook, so I think it's fair to defer to his expertise). I'm assuming that the originalist faction (Scalia, Thomas, probably Alito, maybe Roberts) will vote with the majority, because, well, it's pretty clear. The second amendment says that the right to bear arms shall not be abridged, and this law bans handgun ownership. Pretty clear, right?

The wrinkle: What did the word 'arms' mean at the time of the framing? It meant flintlock rifles, knives, maybe cannons, etc. Modern handguns hadn't yet been invented or even really conceived of, and it'd be tough to make an argument that they were encompassed within the original meaning of 'arms.'

It'll be interesting to see if the originalists even address this problem. They have arguments available: You could say that 'arms' encompasses 'guns,' and 'handguns' are a type of 'gun.' This runs into problems: 'liberty' likely encompasses at least some minimal sexual rights, and it's inconsistent to say that 'liberty' rights are defined so specifically that heterosexual sex is included but homosexual sex is not while still saying that 'arms' is defined so broadly that all guns of any sort, whether they existed in 1787 or not, are included. Plus, in most contexts, Scalia advocates using the most narrow definitions possible, so this'd be a tricky argument for him to make.

I bet they just ignore the issue entirely. Will be interesting to see.
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Re: Supreme Court could take on 2nd Amendment case

Post by rhyae »

Zaelath wrote: The idea that a militia could over throw your government makes me giggle like Homer Simpson.
If you saw how many fucking guns these rednecks have in their houses you wouldn't be laughing.
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Re: Supreme Court could take on 2nd Amendment case

Post by VariaVespasa »

Zaelath wrote:I think they should be allowed to carry all the flintlock rifles they can find.
Woot! I'm all set then! :)
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Re: Supreme Court could take on 2nd Amendment case

Post by Zaelath »

Boogahz wrote:
Zaelath wrote:
Fash wrote:I think they were more concerned with allowing the public to maintain some possibility of being able to revolt and take over the government, if it were necessary. However, I don't think they could've predicted how lazy and sheep-like the country would get.
The idea that a militia could over throw your government makes me giggle like Homer Simpson.
I bet the British Empire did the same!
The rebs had access to the same weaponry as the redcoats. Show me a militia with tanks armoured with depleted uranium, F-22 Raptors, and cruise missiles, and I'll recant my scepticism.
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Re: Supreme Court could take on 2nd Amendment case

Post by Fairweather Pure »

rhyae wrote:
Zaelath wrote: The idea that a militia could over throw your government makes me giggle like Homer Simpson.
If you saw how many fucking guns these rednecks have in their houses you wouldn't be laughing.
Completely ueless when an abrams tank rolls through the front door. The guns that people have <<<<< the guns the military has.
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Re: Supreme Court could take on 2nd Amendment case

Post by Kaldaur »

Yes, because strength at arms automatically guarantees a victory. Just look at Iraq!
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Re: Supreme Court could take on 2nd Amendment case

Post by Deward »

Modern arms are great against conventional forces but pretty worthless against non-conventional forces like guerrillas or terrorists. A well armed, well-led militia could do a lot of damage especially if the commoners were on their side.
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Re: Supreme Court could take on 2nd Amendment case

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http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... &catnum=-1
WASHINGTON (AP) - The Supreme Court said Tuesday it will decide whether the District of Columbia can ban handguns, a case that could produce the most in-depth examination of the constitutional right to "keep and bear arms" in nearly 70 years.

The justices' decision to hear the case could make the divisive debate over guns an issue in the 2008 presidential and congressional elections.


The government of Washington, D.C., is asking the court to uphold its 31-year ban on handgun ownership in the face of a federal appeals court ruling that struck down the ban as incompatible with the Second Amendment. Tuesday's announcement was widely expected, especially after both the District and the man who challenged the handgun ban asked for the high court review.

The main issue before the justices is whether the Second Amendment of the Constitution protects an individual's right to own guns or instead merely sets forth the collective right of states to maintain militias. The former interpretation would permit fewer restrictions on gun ownership.

Gun-control advocates say the Second amendment was intended to insure that states could maintain militias, a response to 18th century fears of an all-powerful national government. Gun rights proponents contend the amendment gives individuals the right to keep guns for private uses, including self-defense.

Alan Gura, a lawyer for the D.C. residents who challenged the ban, said he was pleased that the justices were considering the case.

"We believe the Supreme Court will acknowledge that, while the use of guns can be regulated, a complete prohibition on all functional firearms is too extreme," Gura said. "It's time to end this unconstitutional disaster. It's time to restore a basic freedom to all Washington residents."

Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, said the Supreme Court should "reverse a clearly erroneous decision and make it clear that the Constitution does not prevent communities from having the gun laws they believe are needed to protect public safety."

The last Supreme Court ruling on the topic came in 1939 in U.S. v. Miller, which involved a sawed-off shotgun. That decision supported the collective rights view, but did not squarely answer the question in the view of many constitutional scholars. Chief Justice John Roberts said at his confirmation hearing that the correct reading of the Second Amendment was "still very much an open issue."

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Re: Supreme Court could take on 2nd Amendment case

Post by eOmniz »

As someone from DC, this debate is extremely amusing. Everyone here likes the handgun ban. The driving force behind the appeal are lawmakers in Texas, who just don't like the precedent it sets.
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Re: Supreme Court could take on 2nd Amendment case

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

I've always agree with the idea that this will only take handguns from the law abiding citizens. Scum, will still have guns. This ban is being presenting as stopping crime somehow, but all it will do is maybe cut down on accidental shootings.....with handguns. Which is good, but not as effective as it is being sold as. Oh well.
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