Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

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Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Fash »

http://news.independent.co.uk/sci_tech/ ... 067222.ece
Fury at DNA pioneer's theory: Africans are less intelligent than Westerners
Celebrated scientist attacked for race comments: "All our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really"
One of the world's most eminent scientists was embroiled in an extraordinary row last night after he claimed that black people were less intelligent than white people and the idea that "equal powers of reason" were shared across racial groups was a delusion.

James Watson, a Nobel Prize winner for his part in the unravelling of DNA who now runs one of America's leading scientific research institutions, drew widespread condemnation for comments he made ahead of his arrival in Britain today for a speaking tour at venues including the Science Museum in London.


The 79-year-old geneticist reopened the explosive debate about race and science in a newspaper interview in which he said Western policies towards African countries were wrongly based on an assumption that black people were as clever as their white counterparts when "testing" suggested the contrary. He claimed genes responsible for creating differences in human intelligence could be found within a decade.

The newly formed Equality and Human Rights Commission, successor to the Commission for Racial Equality, said it was studying Dr Watson's remarks " in full". Dr Watson told The Sunday Times that he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours – whereas all the testing says not really". He said there was a natural desire that all human beings should be equal but "people who have to deal with black employees find this not true".

His views are also reflected in a book published next week, in which he writes: "There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so."

The furore echoes the controversy created in the 1990s by The Bell Curve, a book co-authored by the American political scientist Charles Murray, which suggested differences in IQ were genetic and discussed the implications of a racial divide in intelligence. The work was heavily criticised across the world, in particular by leading scientists who described it as a work of " scientific racism".


Dr Watson arrives in Britain today for a speaking tour to publicise his latest book, Avoid Boring People: Lessons from a Life in Science. Among his first engagements is a speech to an audience at the Science Museum organised by the Dana Centre, which held a discussion last night on the history of scientific racism.

Critics of Dr Watson said there should be a robust response to his views across the spheres of politics and science. Keith Vaz, the Labour chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, said: "It is sad to see a scientist of such achievement making such baseless, unscientific and extremely offensive comments. I am sure the scientific community will roundly reject what appear to be Dr Watson's personal prejudices.

"These comments serve as a reminder of the attitudes which can still exists at the highest professional levels."

The American scientist earned a place in the history of great scientific breakthroughs of the 20th century when he worked at the University of Cambridge in the 1950s and 1960s and formed part of the team which discovered the structure of DNA. He shared the 1962 Nobel Prize for medicine with his British colleague Francis Crick and New Zealand-born Maurice Wilkins.

But despite serving for 50 years as a director of the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory on Long Island, considered a world leader in research into cancer and genetics, Dr Watson has frequently courted controversy with some of his views on politics, sexuality and race. The respected journal Science wrote in 1990: "To many in the scientific community, Watson has long been something of a wild man, and his colleagues tend to hold their collective breath whenever he veers from the script."

In 1997, he told a British newspaper that a woman should have the right to abort her unborn child if tests could determine it would be homosexual. He later insisted he was talking about a "hypothetical" choice which could never be applied. He has also suggested a link between skin colour and sex drive, positing the theory that black people have higher libidos, and argued in favour of genetic screening and engineering on the basis that " stupidity" could one day be cured. He has claimed that beauty could be genetically manufactured, saying: "People say it would be terrible if we made all girls pretty. I think it would great."

The Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory said yesterday that Dr Watson could not be contacted to comment on his remarks.

Steven Rose, a professor of biological sciences at the Open University and a founder member of the Society for Social Responsibility in Science, said: " This is Watson at his most scandalous. He has said similar things about women before but I have never heard him get into this racist terrain. If he knew the literature in the subject he would know he was out of his depth scientifically, quite apart from socially and politically."

Anti-racism campaigners called for Dr Watson's remarks to be looked at in the context of racial hatred laws. A spokesman for the 1990 Trust, a black human rights group, said: "It is astonishing that a man of such distinction should make comments that seem to perpetuate racism in this way. It amounts to fuelling bigotry and we would like it to be looked at for grounds of legal complaint."
I believe humans all have the ability to learn and expand their minds to relatively the same extent if they so desire and put forth the effort to do so. Whether or not what this guy says is true, I think it's one of those things that should just be kept to himself... What say you?
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

I'm not a scientist. If his study is valid, then why should it be censored? Just because it isn't something people want to hear, doesn't mean it shouldn't be made public.
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Sylvus »

I find the statement
"There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so."
on a generic level, to be perfectly reasonable from a scientific context.

Applying that idea to a specific group of people, when no scientific proof exist (as he says himself), sounds pretty racist.
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Kaldaur »

I liked the fact about him going on his new book tour.
Haven't we seen enough people ramp up controversy in order to promote a new book? This guy, scientific degrees and all, is a publicity hound. If and when he has proof of his claims, let him come forth then. Right now he's just looking to make an extra buck off people who will read his book.
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

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Sylvus wrote:I find the statement
"There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so."
on a generic level, to be perfectly reasonable from a scientific context.

Applying that idea to a specific group of people, when no scientific proof exist (as he says himself), sounds pretty racist.
Exactly.


In the end, when science is capable of determining intelligence on a very tangible level (within a decade as he says), the uproar will be huge. People will want the information kept away from the public, there will be huge racial divides... nothing good will come of it...

...but that's not to say that what he's talking about isn't potentially entirely true and scientifically useful.
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Asheran Mojomaster »

I hate to say it, but he could be right. I know many smart black men and women. I know many many more stupid ones. Not that I don't know a lot of stupid white people too, and even an asian haha (yeah only one, that has to say something since I am engaged to a Taiwanese girl and she knows a lot of asian people), but a higher % of the black people I know aren't intelligent. Now this could be coincidence, or it could be genetics. I don't know how true this is, but someone told me that when africans were brought here to be slaves that often the owners would specifically try to "breed" them to be dumber and stronger, and thats where part of the stereotypical ripped dumb black man comes from.

Whatever though, without proof he shouldn't act like this is fact. Until they can prove it one way or the other then there is no reason for him to even say it.
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Aabidano »

I'd guess he's drumming up book sales.
Asheran Mojomaster wrote:but a higher % of the black people I know aren't intelligent
Aren't intelligent or aren't educated? Or do the dumb ones stand out in your memory because they're a minority?

And suppose he's right? Of what use is the information? Will they still be people?
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Boogahz »

Asheran Mojomaster wrote:a higher % of the black people I know aren't intelligent.
How are you measuring their intelligence?
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Boogahz wrote:
Asheran Mojomaster wrote:a higher % of the black people I know aren't intelligent.
How are you measuring their intelligence?
With an anal thermometer?
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Leonaerd »

Boogahz wrote:
Asheran Mojomaster wrote:a higher % of the black people I know aren't intelligent.
How are you measuring their intelligence?
Well, finding out the neurological difference between a mathematician and someone that scored a 10 on their ACT test might help... I can imagine that there are plenty of ways to test different types of intellect. Defining intellect is the tough part. There are too many variables in the human brain to pinpoint a definition, especially since a person's intelligence changes with time and is affected by what intelligence is perceived to be.
And suppose he's right? Of what use is the information? Will they still be people?
I'd guess he's drumming up book sales.
Asheran Mojomaster wrote:but a higher % of the black people I know aren't intelligent
Aren't intelligent or aren't educated? Or do the dumb ones stand out in your memory because they're a minority?

And suppose he's right? Of what use is the information? Will they still be people?
Off the top of my head I can imagine that when the strengths and weaknesses of a race are broadly put into perspective when compared with other races' strengths and weaknesses (on an intellectual level), career choices will be easier to make for the individual, hiring practices will change for the employer, and we will finally all be able to agree that blondes are dumb. Economically though I can see profit being made from all sides.

I'm in an electrical engineering class right now and I'm the only non-asian. Out of the 5 engineering courses I've taken so far I've seen one black kid. Educated black people are not usually engineers.
Or do the dumb ones stand out in your memory because they're a minority?
Do they not stand out for you because you tell yourself constantly that every race is equivalent on every level? Next you'll be saying that white guys can jump high and asians have big dicks.
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by noel »

Asheran Mojomaster wrote:I hate to say it, but he could be right. I know many smart black men and women. I know many many more stupid ones. Not that I don't know a lot of stupid white people too, and even an asian haha (yeah only one, that has to say something since I am engaged to a Taiwanese girl and she knows a lot of asian people), but a higher % of the black people I know aren't intelligent. Now this could be coincidence, or it could be genetics. I don't know how true this is, but someone told me that when africans were brought here to be slaves that often the owners would specifically try to "breed" them to be dumber and stronger, and thats where part of the stereotypical ripped dumb black man comes from.

Whatever though, without proof he shouldn't act like this is fact. Until they can prove it one way or the other then there is no reason for him to even say it.
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Sueven »

Mid wrote:I'm not a scientist. If his study is valid, then why should it be censored? Just because it isn't something people want to hear, doesn't mean it shouldn't be made public.
I think the problem here is that there is no 'study,' just this mans opinion. He's not claiming to have found a genetic basis for differences in mental capacity or anything, let alone one which correlates across race. I still don't think it should be censored, I just think it's likely to be short-sighted.
Sylvus wrote:on a generic level, to be perfectly reasonable from a scientific context.

Applying that idea to a specific group of people, when no scientific proof exist (as he says himself), sounds pretty racist.
Word.

There was a really vigorous and interesting debate on basically this subject when The Bell Curve came out, and much of that literature is still floating around now. These statements will likely provoke a similar debate. If you dig up some of the material from the Bell Curve days, you can probably find a range of interesting and informed opinions on both sides.
Last edited by Sueven on October 17, 2007, 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Zaelath »

The Australian aboriginals were here 40,000 years and the only technology they mastered was fire, they didn't even get around to the wheel, in fact they were a stone age society.

Enter europeans and incredibly, over the next 100 years they progress to the same intelligence as the europeans, who didn't educate them.

I dunno...
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Animale »

So now Watson has the racist feather to add to his already sexist cap. Ho hum, he's a publicity hound who doesn't think ANYBODY is as smart as him, much less somebody who <gasp> thinks he's wrong and quick to conclude things based on scant evidence.

What a tool.

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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Arborealus »

African Americans score significantly lower on IQ measures then Americans of European Ancestry...Germans who don't speak english score even worse...Because all such instruments are culturally biased. Watson has always been a racist/sexist and generally cantankerous bastard. He was a pretty good X-Ray crystallographer in his day though.
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Acies »

I agree with his statement that differant racial groups will exhibit differant racial tendancies on a genetic level. However, I do not agree with the statement that black people are, genertically speaking, inferior to white people. Sure, there is a gap now on average, but it has I believe more to do with education differances, sociological standards, image, etc. Until proof is given that this is true on aforementioned genetic level, then he should keep such thoughts out of his lectures. Scientifically it may be a good hypothesis to run with, but socially it is pretty fucking stupid to announce.
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Deward »

I would say intelligence is only about 20% based on genetics. I have known some pretty stupid people but it was caused by a poor education system more so than genetics. Parents and social upbringing also play a huge role. If you grow up in the projects or ghetto then you are less likely to get an education. I was one of four kids that grew up in the projects. I actually went on to get my Master's degree but my brother was a high school drop-out, one of my sisters (29 years old) is twice married with four kids and travels the carny circuit, my youngest sister (27) has two kids and is a stripper. I would consider my brother pretty savvy and intelligent but we didn't have much parental involvement when we were younger and his life took a different turn. My older sister was pretty smart in high school, straight A's, but went to college and got knocked up her first semester. Not sure what went wrong there. My youngest sister (half-blood Mother's side) is just plain stupid though. She was coddled her whole life though and it shows today.
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Fash »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071018/ap_ ... cientist_2
LONDON - London's Science Museum canceled a Friday talk by Nobel Prize-winning geneticist James Watson after the co-discoverer of DNA's structure told a newspaper that Africans and Europeans had different levels of intelligence.

...
Well his 'sold out' show got cancelled! Is this bad press still good press?...
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Funkmasterr »

A couple of things:

If this guy was really gonna come out and say this shit, he should have waited until he had his "proof". Then, at that point let Jesse Jackson rally and whine about how racist it is, and let the whole world bitch about it, but fact is a fact. And if he indeed can prove beyond a doubt that he is correct, I see no problem with him speaking about it.

Until then though, he should just back off.
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Arborealus »

Funkmasterr wrote:A couple of things:

If this guy was really gonna come out and say this shit, he should have waited until he had his "proof". Then, at that point let Jesse Jackson rally and whine about how racist it is, and let the whole world bitch about it, but fact is a fact. And if he indeed can prove beyond a doubt that he is correct, I see no problem with him speaking about it.

Until then though, he should just back off.
LOL this guy hasn't done research in years...and would be totally unqualified to conduct this kind of research.
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Leonaerd »

Fash wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071018/ap_ ... cientist_2
LONDON - London's Science Museum canceled a Friday talk by Nobel Prize-winning geneticist James Watson after the co-discoverer of DNA's structure told a newspaper that Africans and Europeans had different levels of intelligence.

...
Well his 'sold out' show got cancelled! Is this bad press still good press?...
Definitely good press. It won't stop here.
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Funkmasterr »

Arborealus wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:A couple of things:

If this guy was really gonna come out and say this shit, he should have waited until he had his "proof". Then, at that point let Jesse Jackson rally and whine about how racist it is, and let the whole world bitch about it, but fact is a fact. And if he indeed can prove beyond a doubt that he is correct, I see no problem with him speaking about it.

Until then though, he should just back off.
LOL this guy hasn't done research in years...and would be totally unqualified to conduct this kind of research.
I was unaware of that, but your comment is completely beside the point and takes nothing away from what I said, because it doesn't matter who does the research, if someone does and it is proven, people will have to shut the fuck up and deal with it.

I realize this hurts a lot of the posters here, because it goes against the "everyone is equal in every way and should be treated as such" attitude, but again, tough shit - deal with it.
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Arborealus »

Funkmasterr wrote:
Arborealus wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:A couple of things:

If this guy was really gonna come out and say this shit, he should have waited until he had his "proof". Then, at that point let Jesse Jackson rally and whine about how racist it is, and let the whole world bitch about it, but fact is a fact. And if he indeed can prove beyond a doubt that he is correct, I see no problem with him speaking about it.

Until then though, he should just back off.
LOL this guy hasn't done research in years...and would be totally unqualified to conduct this kind of research.
I was unaware of that, but your comment is completely beside the point and takes nothing away from what I said, because it doesn't matter who does the research, if someone does and it is proven, people will have to shut the fuck up and deal with it.

I realize this hurts a lot of the posters here, because it goes against the "everyone is equal in every way and should be treated as such" attitude, but again, tough shit - deal with it.
Everyone is clearly not equal in every way...
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Funkmasterr »

Arborealus wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:
Arborealus wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:A couple of things:

If this guy was really gonna come out and say this shit, he should have waited until he had his "proof". Then, at that point let Jesse Jackson rally and whine about how racist it is, and let the whole world bitch about it, but fact is a fact. And if he indeed can prove beyond a doubt that he is correct, I see no problem with him speaking about it.

Until then though, he should just back off.
LOL this guy hasn't done research in years...and would be totally unqualified to conduct this kind of research.
I was unaware of that, but your comment is completely beside the point and takes nothing away from what I said, because it doesn't matter who does the research, if someone does and it is proven, people will have to shut the fuck up and deal with it.

I realize this hurts a lot of the posters here, because it goes against the "everyone is equal in every way and should be treated as such" attitude, but again, tough shit - deal with it.
Everyone is clearly not equal in every way...

ooooOOoh zing.. How about you address the topic or what I said with something other than a one liner?
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Arborealus »

Funkmasterr wrote:
Arborealus wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:
Arborealus wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:A couple of things:

If this guy was really gonna come out and say this shit, he should have waited until he had his "proof". Then, at that point let Jesse Jackson rally and whine about how racist it is, and let the whole world bitch about it, but fact is a fact. And if he indeed can prove beyond a doubt that he is correct, I see no problem with him speaking about it.

Until then though, he should just back off.
LOL this guy hasn't done research in years...and would be totally unqualified to conduct this kind of research.
I was unaware of that, but your comment is completely beside the point and takes nothing away from what I said, because it doesn't matter who does the research, if someone does and it is proven, people will have to shut the fuck up and deal with it.

I realize this hurts a lot of the posters here, because it goes against the "everyone is equal in every way and should be treated as such" attitude, but again, tough shit - deal with it.
Everyone is clearly not equal in every way...

ooooOOoh zing.. How about you address the topic or what I said with something other than a one liner?
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Fash »

Update:

http://news.independent.co.uk/sci_tech/ ... 075664.ece
"I can understand much of this reaction. For if I said what I was quoted as saying, then I can only admit that I am bewildered by it. To those who have drawn the inference from my words that Africa, as a continent, is somehow genetically inferior, I can only apologise unreservedly. This is not what I meant. More importantly from my point of view, there is no scientific basis for such a belief."

However, Dr Watson goes on to suggest that genes may account for many behavioural traits, including intelligence and even criminality. "The thought that some people are innately wicked disturbs me," he says. "But science is not here to make us feel good."
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Fash »

And he's resigned:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/10 ... index.html
(CNN) -- The Nobel prize-winning biologist who caused a furor with comments about the intelligence of black people resigned Thursday from his longtime post at a renowned research lab.

In a statement announcing his departure from the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory on New York's Long Island, Dr James Watson did not mention the comments but instead cited "events" which led to his decision.

"The circumstances in which the transfer is occurring," he wrote, "are not those which I could ever have anticipated or desired."

The lab's board had already suspended him pending a review of his remarks, for which Watson apologized last week.

The controversy began with an interview with Watson published October 14 in Britain's Sunday Times.

Watson was quoted as saying he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours, whereas all the testing says not really."

He also asserted there was no reason to believe different races separated by geography should have evolved identically, and that while he hoped everyone was equal, "people who have to deal with black employees find this is not true."

Watson had been on a tour of the United Kingdom to promote his new book, and the comments led several venues to cancel his planned appearances.

The 79-year-old biologist apologized "unreservedly" last week and said he did not understand how he could have made the quoted remarks. The paper stood by its interview.

Watson won the 1962 Nobel prize for his role in discovering the double-helix structure of DNA. He had been chancellor of the lab and served on its board for 43 years, but he said it was now time to retire.

"Closer now to 80 than 79, the passing on of my remaining vestiges of leadership is more than overdue," he wrote.

Watson said he was proud of the laboratory's legacy and reputation as one of the world's leading sites for biological research and education. Specifically, Watson mentioned cancer research as one of the lab's achievements.

Eduardo Mestre, chairman of the lab's board, said Watson had made "immeasurable contributions" to the lab's research and that the board respected his decision to retire.

The lab's director, Bruce Stillman, credited Watson with raising the lab's profile.

"Jim's legacy will not only include CSHL and the double helix, but his pioneering efforts that led to the sequencing of the human genome and his innovations in science writing and education."

Watson had made controversial remarks in the past. In 1997, Britain's Sunday Telegraph quoted Watson as saying that if a gene for homosexuality were isolated, women who find that their unborn child has the gene should be allowed to have an abortion.

During a lecture tour in 2000, he suggested there might be links between skin color and sexual prowess, and between a person's weight and their level of ambition.

And in a British TV documentary that aired in 2003, Watson suggested that stupidity was a genetic disease that should be treated.
Fash

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Naivety is dangerous.
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Asheran Mojomaster
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Re: Abuse of science credentials by an old racist?

Post by Asheran Mojomaster »

noel wrote:
Asheran Mojomaster wrote:I hate to say it, but he could be right. I know many smart black men and women. I know many many more stupid ones. Not that I don't know a lot of stupid white people too, and even an asian haha (yeah only one, that has to say something since I am engaged to a Taiwanese girl and she knows a lot of asian people), but a higher % of the black people I know aren't intelligent. Now this could be coincidence, or it could be genetics. I don't know how true this is, but someone told me that when africans were brought here to be slaves that often the owners would specifically try to "breed" them to be dumber and stronger, and thats where part of the stereotypical ripped dumb black man comes from.

Whatever though, without proof he shouldn't act like this is fact. Until they can prove it one way or the other then there is no reason for him to even say it.
I know for a fact that you're stupid and not qualified to judge anyone else's intelligence.
Oooo, nice one. That hurt! So anyway, what is your degree in? I mean what do you do for a living? I don't know so I'm not going to say I will make more money than you, but I am a junior in Chemical Engineering at Auburn, which is in the top 20 engineering schools in the country and top 3 in the south, and on my way to making Dean's list this semester. So what I'm trying to say is, kindly fuck off.

On another note, I am not saying that because they are a minority. I know a massive amount of black people, many very smart. There are quite a few in engineering with me. But from my experience there is a higher % of dumbass black people than dumbass white people. These are people going to the same schools, not white kids from a rich private school and black kids from a rundown shitty school. That is not scientific evidence at all, but its my own experience. Could be genetics, could be coincidence.
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