Tiger Season!

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » October 13, 2007, 9:39 pm

LEXINGTON, Ky. (AP) -Kentucky became the latest team to shake up the national title race.

Andre Woodson found Steve Johnson open in the end zone for a 7-yard score in the third extra period and the No. 17 Wildcats stunned No. 1 LSU 43-37 Saturday.

Johnson was open because defender Jonathan Zenon tripped and fell down, and Woodson double-pumped before firing a strike.

LSU had a chance to tie, but couldn't get a first down on four straight running plays. Charles Scott was stopped a yard short on a fourth-and-2 run and Kentucky had it's first victory over a No. 1 team since 1964, when it beat Mississippi.

Fans at Commonwealth Stadium stormed the field, in a scene reminiscent of 2002 - the last time these teams played in Lexington. Only that time, it was a false alarm because Devery Henderson scored on a 75-yard tipped pass as time expired in what is still known in Baton Rouge as the ''Bluegrass Miracle.''

''It proved we're a team that obviously earns a lot more respect now,'' Woodson said in the middle of the on-field celebration. ''We've come a long way from being a doormat in the SEC to competing with the best teams in the SEC and getting some wins.''

It was the first time in nearly four years the No. 1 team was beaten during the regular season. On Dec. 6, 2003, Kansas State beat top-ranked Oklahoma 35-7 for the Big 12 title.

Early on Saturday, it didn't seem like this game was heading to a miracle finish. It didn't seem like the Tigers would need one.

But starting with a minute left in the third quarter, Kentucky scored 13 straight points to tie it at 27. Both teams scored rushing TDs in the first OT and field goals in the second.

Winnow, I thought the next fraud revealed was going to be Ohio State? Help me out here, I watched OSU take care of business today.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » October 13, 2007, 10:01 pm

At least Kentucky was ranked!

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » October 13, 2007, 10:53 pm

Indeed!

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » October 13, 2007, 11:02 pm

#2 Cal on the ropes, down in the 4th to the mighty Beavers of Oregon state?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 13, 2007, 11:08 pm

Ashur wrote: Winnow, I thought the next fraud revealed was going to be Ohio State? Help me out here, I watched OSU take care of business today.

OSU took care of business? The pussies played KENT STATE. They aren't even playing conference games. I guess that can be considered taking care of business playing crap teams. The Big Ten blows...why do these "awesome teams" need to be playing 1-AA teams and the Kent States of college football, especially this deep into the season.

Michigan's going to beat OSU.

As for the Big Ten:

#18 Illinios 6 (LOSS)
Iowa 10

#19 Wisconsin 7 (LOSS)
Penn State 38

Two more ranked Big Ten teams bite the dust and OSU plays some pansy team. So weak.

OhioSU is going to get embarrassed in a bowl game after playing that cream puff schedule.

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » October 13, 2007, 11:40 pm

#2 Cal down to Oregon State

Winnow, at least we BEAT the unranked teams we're supposed to.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 13, 2007, 11:59 pm

Ashur wrote:#2 Cal down to Oregon State

Winnow, at least we BEAT the unranked teams we're supposed to.

If you lobby hard enough, you might be able to line up Appalachian State for every remaining game this season. #1 my ass. You should be ashamed of that schedule except for Washington. The USC of the East, OSU, has zero good teams to play while Pac-10 teams vying for the title play multiple top ten teams. OSU played maybe one ranked team in the low 20's? Purdue or something like that?

Pretty lamo.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » October 14, 2007, 1:15 am

oh thats a fucking riot. as of this post, you stupid fucks at asu are losing 17-13 to washington at the half AT HOME. i dismissed home court advantage and this is what you show me? rofl, our defense just got propelled to number 1 overall in the nation, and benchmark (rofl) games like washington (rofl, again) show how much better we are than those overrated pac ten schools (yeah, the entire conference). yeah, you're right, the big ten may suck this year, but good news for us is if we win out, the bcs game is ours to lose, again. when was the last time that was said about asu?

oh yeah thats right, when we beat your ass.

also, lets not forget that this is our rebuilding season (ha!) and we went ahead and scheduled USC for the next 2 years.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 14, 2007, 1:41 am

Zamtuk wrote:oh thats a fucking riot. as of this post, you stupid fucks at asu are losing 17-13 to washington at the half AT HOME. i dismissed home court advantage and this is what you show me? rofl, our defense just got propelled to number 1 overall in the nation, and benchmark (rofl) games like washington (rofl, again) show how much better we are than those overrated pac ten schools (yeah, the entire conference).

ASU scored 7 more points the 1st half against Washington than OSU (scored a whopping 3 points) managed and you're using this as an example?

OSU's defense may be number one against scrub teams like Kent State but that means nothing. Pah-theh-tick

Zamtuk wrote:yeah, you're right, the big ten may suck this year, but good news for us is if we win out, the bcs game is ours to lose, again. when was the last time that was said about asu?

oh yeah thats right, when we beat your ass.

also, lets not forget that this is our rebuilding season (ha!) and we went ahead and scheduled USC for the next 2 years.

1996 and ASU lost, just like you will with a pansy schedule. At least ASU played conference teams that year, not Kent State. The Pac-10 was tougher in 1996 than the Big Ten is this year that's for sure. I can't believe you're playing non conference pansy teams this late in the season. That as pussy written all over it like a ranked heavyweight with a glass jaw dodging contenders.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 14, 2007, 2:56 am

OhioSU 33
Washington 14
(margin of victory: 19 points)

Washington 20
Arizona State 44 (ASU's #1 RB, #1WR and #1TE were inactive for the game)
(margin of victory: 24 points...and ASU sat on the ball on the 10 yard line instead of scoring even more)

home field advantage: 3 points (standard home field advantage)

OhioSU margin of victory over Washington: 19
Arizona State margin of victory over Washington: 21 (factoring in home field)

Conclusion: Arizona State is the #1 team in the nation considering their strength of schedule is magnitudes harder than OhioSU's and their ability to beat a mutually played team by more points even with their #1 RB, #1 WR and #1 TE out of action.

Gooooooo Deviiiiiilllllls!

Will we see a Top Ten ranking for the unranked at the beginning of the season Sun Devils?

7-0 ASU has a bye week and then faces Cal. (while OhioSU will face another bottom 25 team)

At the beginning of this week

# of teams in the top 13:

Pac-10: 4
SEC, and three other conferences: 2
Big Ten: 1

masteen · Post by **masteen** » October 14, 2007, 4:17 am

ASU hasn't played a single team worth a shit this season. I'd be surprised if your opponents combined record is over .500. Cal is going to push your shit in.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 14, 2007, 5:17 am

masteen wrote:ASU hasn't played a single team worth a shit this season. I'd be surprised if your opponents combined record is over .500. Cal is going to push your shit in.

We beat Oregon State who just upset #2 Cal this weekend. Beat Stanford 41-3 who upset #2 USC. Beat Washington by a higher margin than OhioSU did. Beat Colorado who beat ranked Oklahoma. At least our opponents are capable of beating highly ranked teams.

We beat everyone who has beat highly ranked teams. OhioSU has beat shit.

ASU isn't vulnerable to the spread offense. They have a quick defense with no major holes or a catastrophic failure to handle a particular type of offense. For the "all offense" Pac-10, ASU is ranked in the Top Ten for interceptions and passing defense.

Pac-10 is the best conference in college football this year. SEC kind of hit the shitter. Pac Ten has twice as many ranked teams as any other conference in the top 15. (4) Had Cal pulled out a win, you may have seen 40% of the Top Ten belong to the Pac-10. Now it depends on how far Cal falls.

3 of ASU's last 5 games are against top 10 teams. At least we'll go out swinging while OSU cruises by cream puff teams. We play Arizona the last game of the year which is our rivalry game the same as OSU has to face Michigan.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » October 14, 2007, 11:02 am

No they aren't. Cal is not a top ten team (god only knows where the pac ten blowing voters will put them), USC is not a top ten team, though they are ranked as such (and still almost lost to fucking Arizona).

You can say what you will about OSU not playing anyone, but we are murdering who we are playing. Our defense outscored our opponent (hey fuckface, there are 11 teams in the big ten, every week a school has to play a non con game to even it out, simple mathematics) yesterday, and is just plain nasty up front. If our defensive core stays through next season, there will be no less than three first round picks OFF A DEFENSE. Give me one other school in history who can boast that.

I'm not too hot on the idea of us being number one, but it is where we have to be. If we lose one game, like Wisconsin, we will be looking at an upper teens ranking if not 20th. The Big Ten is in a rut, but I haven't seen such absurd rankings in all my life. I really pray that it is OSU/BC in the championship, so all the faggot Pac Ten fans and the unfortunate SEC fans can band together and fix the polling system, and hopefully get a playoff system.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » October 14, 2007, 11:43 am

Hate to tell you Winnow, but bragging about the Pac Ten during a week where Cal loses and USC almost loses to Arizona detracts from your credibility. So does comparing OSU/Mich (which, recently, and this season, has been a game between two good teams) and ASU/UoA (which has recently been between shit teams, and this season is between a good team and a shit team).

That said, Zamtuk: Ohio State has a humiliatingly bad schedule. It's not like it's OSU's fault: You can't control the quality of your conference games, and you did schedule a nonconference BCS game, on the road, against a school that very well could have been good. Just so happens that the Big Ten blows and Washington isn't very good. Regardless of whether it's OSU's fault or not, though, your schedule sucks: You played one ranked team (Purdue was #23 when you beat them... unranked now). You still have to play Illinois and Wisconsin (both of whom will likely drop out of the rankings this week) as well as Penn State and Michigan (both of whom might have re-entered the rankings by the time you play them). Regardless, it looks like you'll be forced to win probably 2 or 3 games against teams ranked in the low 20's in order to make the national title game. And then you don't even have to play a conference championship game. It's pretty bad.

This is a perfect setup for a repeat of last year. You run the table against the shit Big Ten, make it to the title game against a team who plays real competition, and get slaughtered. It would be much better for the Big Ten if you lost a game and didn't get to play for the championship than watching you play for the championship and be totally noncompetitive for the second year in a row. Of course, you could play well and win it, and that'd be good for the Big Ten, but we'll see.

Northwestern beat Minnesota last night. Northwestern now has TWO big ten wins. Northwestern has also LOST TO DUKE. Hello? The conference is a travesty. This is becoming more and more obvious every week. The only thing redeeming you is that Michigan actually looks good again.

Sueven's CFB rankings:

This is a really tough week. It seems like a number of the one loss teams are better than a number of the undefeated teams, and I'm not sure how that ought to be handled. My methodology: First, I think "would this team beat any of the teams above them on the list, or lose to any of the teams below them on the list?" Second, I make some adjustments for teams that have proven themselves based on past performance (which is why South Florida is #1).

1. South Florida
2. Louisiana State
3. Ohio State
4. Oklahoma
5. Oregon
6. South Carolina
7. Boston College
8. Kentucky
9. Florida
10. West Virginia
11. Arizona State
12. California
13. Auburn
14. Virginia Tech

I couldn't decide on spot 15, so I decided that no-one deserved it.

Stats: 2 Big East teams, 5 SEC teams, 1 Big Ten team, 1 Big Twelve team, 3 Pac Ten teams, 2 ACC teams.

Conference Rankings:

1. SEC
2. ACC
3. Pac Ten
4. Big East
5. Big Twelve
6. Big Ten

Honestly, the ACC is pretty impressive at the moment. Boston College is a legit national title contender, while Wake Forest, Clemson, Maryland, Florida State, Virginia Tech, Virginia and Georgia Tech all look like they might be good. It's possible that a bunch of these teams fall prey to inconsistency and fall apart, but if they all continue to improve, then the ACC will be as deep as any conference in the nation beyond the SEC. The Pac Ten is more top heavy, but weaker in the middle and at the bottom. The Big Twelve is looking rough. Oklahoma looks good, but Texas has a long way to go in order to redeem itself, Missouri suffered the double indignity of losing and seeing their best win (Illinois) devalued, and most of the other good-looking teams (Kansas, Colorado, Texas Tech) have a lot to prove yet.

I'd also like to mention this:

Last week, in an argument about whether Wisconsin sucks dick (I argue that they do in fact suck dick), I posted this:

Sueven wrote:I wasn't referring to any insights gleaned from looking at their schedules or results or stats though. I was referring to the obvious insights that you gain by just watching football games. For instance, Florida and Maryland are both 4-2 and Maryland has clearly won tougher games, but it would be stupid to argue that Maryland is as good a team as Florida because anyone who has watched both teams can tell you that it's obviously untrue. Both teams could finish the season with the same record and it still wouldn't make it true. Seriously, have you watched Wisconsin this year? They sure as hell don't look any better than Indiana, and Indiana's not ranked. Fuck man, Connecticut is undefeated and Connecticut sucks.

Penn State 38, Wisconsin 7.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » October 14, 2007, 11:52 am

I know our schedule is shit. Hell, I knew it going into this season, hence why I only bought the Wisconsin game instead of the season ticket package. But this is a team who is in between facing Texas two years in a row, and facing USC two years in a row before going off and playing Miami for three years (yeah, not too impressive, but hey, we're trying!). Tressel actually has a lot of say in who we play for our nonconference games (yay, Youngstown State) and wants to put us up against the best. This year just panned out shitty in that regard.

I said it before, we are in a rebuilding year. I laughed at our schedule because, if we played our usual non conference games, we probably would have lost. I didn't expect our defense to be lights out, but I don't think anyone would argue that our offense is firing on all cylinders, even though, it could by seasons end. The overall attitude around Columbus was our schedule was tailor made for a rebuilding year. OSU sneaking into the BCS game and winning a la 2002 is much better than last years travesty.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » October 14, 2007, 11:58 am

I found one thing that the announcers said during the ASU game last night to sum up what Winnow seems to be missing. If ASU had lost last night, the #1 team in the Pac10 would have been an unranked team. Way to go Pac10!

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » October 14, 2007, 12:43 pm

Yeah, Ohio State does deserve credit for their nonconference scheduling. There's not a whole lot of teams who will play home-and-home series against teams like Texas and USC in such close proximity to one another.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 14, 2007, 2:12 pm

Winnow wrote:
masteen wrote:ASU hasn't played a single team worth a shit this season. I'd be surprised if your opponents combined record is over .500. Cal is going to push your shit in.
We beat Oregon State who just upset #2 Cal this weekend. Beat Stanford 41-3 who upset #2 USC. Beat Washington by a higher margin than OhioSU did. Beat Colorado who beat ranked Oklahoma. At least our opponents are capable of beating highly ranked teams.

We beat everyone who has beat highly ranked teams. OhioSU has beat shit.

Pac-10 is the best conference in college football this year. SEC kind of hit the shitter. Pac Ten has twice as many ranked teams as any other conference in the top 15. (4) Had Cal pulled out a win, you may have seen 40% of the Top Ten belong to the Pac-10. Now it depends on how far Cal falls.

3 of ASU's last 5 games are against top 10 teams. At least we'll go out swinging while OSU cruises by cream puff teams. We play Arizona the last game of the year which is our rivalry game the same as OSU has to face Michigan.

All of the "top 10" teams you played or beat teams that beat top 10 are in your shit conference. We will see what happens in the bowls. Until then you are blowing so much air out yoru ass.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 14, 2007, 3:38 pm

Sueven wrote:Yeah, Ohio State does deserve credit for their nonconference scheduling. There's not a whole lot of teams who will play home-and-home series against teams like Texas and USC in such close proximity to one another.

How about giving USC credit for their out of conference schedule? They always play a high profile team. For years it was Notre Dame when they were good. They had #3 Nebraska away this year (not their fault that Nebreaska turned out to suck), and these OhioSU people in the next few years. USC doesn't go the puss route out of conference and also has the hardest in conference schedule having to play the Pac-10 where even the worst Pac-10 teams can beat #2 teams in the nation on a given Saturday.

Don't forget that ASU took down #1 Nebraska back in 1996!

If strength of schedule was considered for the BCS, OhioSU would be out of the top 50 for consideration. It shouldn't matter if they are undefeated when they don't play anyone worthy of giving them a challenge. While Pac-10 teams cannibalize each other in a top ten team battle royal, OhioSU sleepwalks through a lineup of teams that suck. Michigan may have given OSU a challenge but they may have lost their running back this week.

Sueven:

It doesn't matter what the record is of teams in rivalry games. ASU/UofA is just as intense as Michigan/OSU no matter what each teams' record is coming in.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 14, 2007, 4:29 pm

Arizona State received a first place vote!

ASU should be in the top ten and Oregon should be higher. I also wouldn't put OhioSU into the #1 spot until they actually play a decent team which would be never this year. ASU defeated a mutual opponent more soundly than did OhioSU so they should be #1 or OhioSU should be lower.

Playing a late game on Saturday probably cost ASU four spots (game ended around 1am EST) so consider them #8 in the nation.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » October 14, 2007, 5:24 pm

Dude, I've been to Sun Devil stadium, and it (and the town around it) cannot even come close to the intesity that is the essence of the SEC football experience. JAX gets more crazy for the Gator Bowl that that retirement community does when they host the national title game.

ASU is just the latest PAC-10 team to beat a bunch of nobodies, but come some real competition, they'll drop like the giant turn they are. The sports writers know this, and that's why they're getting about as much respect nationally as the Gators do with 2 losses. I'd like to find out who the douche is that gave them a first place vote, but I guarantee you he's some west coast homer who's never been to a game anywhere else.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 14, 2007, 7:12 pm

Finally! Some respect for ASU.

They're tied for 5th by the non biased computer ratings and 8th overall in the BCS. It's plain to see how overrated OhioSU is by anything that doesn't include a bias.

Florida heading lower.

Four Pac-10 teams in the top 15.

Considering OhioSU's done jack shit more than ASU this year, any team in the top eight has a shot.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » October 14, 2007, 9:12 pm

Winnow wrote:How about giving USC credit for their out of conference schedule? They always play a high profile team. For years it was Notre Dame when they were good. They had #3 Nebraska away this year (not their fault that Nebreaska turned out to suck), and these OhioSU people in the next few years. USC doesn't go the puss route out of conference and also has the hardest in conference schedule having to play the Pac-10 where even the worst Pac-10 teams can beat #2 teams in the nation on a given Saturday.

I give USC loads of credit for their scheduling philosophy. Go dig up my posts from last year's BCS season for proof.

Winnow wrote:Don't forget that ASU took down #1 Nebraska back in 1996!

Congratulations?

Winnow wrote:If strength of schedule was considered for the BCS, OhioSU would be out of the top 50 for consideration. It shouldn't matter if they are undefeated when they don't play anyone worthy of giving them a challenge. While Pac-10 teams cannibalize each other in a top ten team battle royal, OhioSU sleepwalks through a lineup of teams that suck. Michigan may have given OSU a challenge but they may have lost their running back this week.

It is. 1/3 of the BCS standings are based on computers, most/all of which incorporate strength of schedule. The rest is based on polls, and pollsters at least theoretically incorporate strength of schedule.

Winnow wrote:Sueven:

It doesn't matter what the record is of teams in rivalry games. ASU/UofA is just as intense as Michigan/OSU no matter what each teams' record is coming in.

Umm, OK. Two problems:

1. Arizona sucks and Arizona State usually does too
2. No it's not.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 14, 2007, 10:02 pm

Sueven wrote:
Winnow wrote:Don't forget that ASU took down #1 Nebraska back in 1996!
Congratulations?

Winnow wrote:Sueven:

It doesn't matter what the record is of teams in rivalry games. ASU/UofA is just as intense as Michigan/OSU no matter what each teams' record is coming in.
Umm, OK. Two problems:

1. Arizona sucks and Arizona State usually does too
2. No it's not.

Thanks!

ASU has taken UofA out of a bowl game and vice versa several times when they had no business doing so because it was a rivalry game and they played harder. That's what rivalry games are all about. I hear Sylvus and others harping about that all the time...no matter what's going on that season, it's all about beating OhioSU/Michigan when that game rolls around. It's the same deal here. "Duel in the Desert"

ASU/UoA hate each other. It's pretty clear to anyone around here.

I could give two fucks if it's as "popular" as another rivalry around the nation.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » October 14, 2007, 10:05 pm

lol, did he honestly compare ASU/UA to OSU/UM?! I'm not going to open that can of worms again (there is a massive debate about this last season), but that is absolute bullshit.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » October 14, 2007, 10:59 pm

Zamtuk wrote:lol, did he honestly compare ASU/UA to OSU/UM?! I'm not going to open that can of worms again (there is a massive debate about this last season), but that is absolute bullshit.

Winnow has no clue when it comes to sports. He has shown that for a while now. I would say not to feed the trolls, but he has proven that it doesn't really matter with his Suns threads...speaking of which, why hasn't he started one yet?

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » October 14, 2007, 11:21 pm

Winnow, would you rather play:

a) a shitty team that's really pumped up to play you, or
b) a good team that's really pumped up to play you

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 15, 2007, 1:41 am

Sueven wrote:Winnow, would you rather play:

a) a shitty team that's really pumped up to play you, or
b) a good team that's really pumped up to play you

I want to beat UofA every year. No matter what ASU's record, a win against the Wildcats makes the season somewhat of a success.

Do fans of Michigan and OhioSU really care what their records are when they face off against each other save for playing the spoiler? I'd hope they mostly want to beat their arch rival.

That's what good rivalries are all about. For one game, you turn off the rest of the season and focus on beating the crap out of the team you hate the most. I realize rivalries are regional and some, like OSU vs Michigan are nationally televised more often and some people that don't have their own team will care more about that game. All I care about in the Michigan/OSU rivalry is that the team with the worst record wins to screw the other team. That's about it.

Gzette · Post by **Gzette** » October 15, 2007, 3:28 am

im with you winnow. im a UT-texas student and really the only important thing is beating OU and to a mildly lesser extent beating A&M (a game which is way more important to them than it is to us hahaha fucking aggies), but seriously are you an ASU alum? cuz no one gives a shit about them, and i just don't understand how pac-10 stats etc have anything to do with ASU. something less than a decade old pls

Gzette · Post by **Gzette** » October 15, 2007, 3:33 am

2x post

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » October 15, 2007, 8:34 am

Winnow, the point has nothing to do with how much you want to beat the other team, it has to do with how challenging it is to beat the other team.

Also: It's interesting to note that the BCS computers, which operate on strictly objective and statistical criteria and do not take into account any subjective personal biases, rank LSU second, South Carolina third, and Kentucky fourth.

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » October 15, 2007, 1:53 pm

lol, did he honestly compare ASU/UA to OSU/UM?! I'm not going to open that can of worms again (there is a massive debate about this last season), but that is absolute bullshit.

Look, I know Winnow does most of this shit for either attention or to piss people off, but with this point he is actually correct. To someone in Arizona the Territorial Cup Game is probably just as important as the OSU/Michigan game. It is also one of the oldest rivalries in the country.

As for which game is harder, based on the results of the last 5 years they seem about the same. ASU has owned Arizona and Ohio State has owned Michigan.

On the rankings front, the bottom line is that the BCS might reward the 2 conferences that are down this year. The Big 10 and the Big East. OSU is a good team, but by most Buckeye fans admissions this is a rebuilding year. If the Michigan game is going to be your high profile win, I think it says a lot about your schedule. I don't think it is your fault, most schools tend to schedule out several years, so what may have looked like a decent schedule 4 years ago can look like crap the year it happens. Ohio State does try and schedule tough games, so this was just a fluke season. Even if it was done deliberately, who would blame them? I would try and exploit the weaknesses of the BCS too. Kansas State did it for years, scheduling every directional school they could find and hoping 10-2 would get them a BCS bid

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 15, 2007, 2:31 pm

"The Game" Michigan vs Ohio State, first year: 1897

"Duel in the Desert" (Territorial Cup) Arizona vs Arizona State, first year: 1899

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NC ... alry_games

Go fuck yourself and your two extra years. Big deal.

Arizona State has been playing football since 1897. As far as I can tell, Michigan has played since 1886 (prior to that, a goalie is listed as a position so that doesn't seem like real football to me) so you've got 11 years on us which doesn't amount to much considering the totals of 110 and 121 years played. I find it more impressive that a team in a territorial state at the time has played that long. (AZ became a state in 1912, Michigan in 1837)

1897 for a Western state that's not California is impressive to me as there wasn't a whole hell of a lot out here yet the Michigan/OhioSU rivalry is only 2 years older.

Sueven can go fuck himself with this East Coast bias on this one.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » October 15, 2007, 2:42 pm

Texas v Texas A&M beats both of you!

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » October 15, 2007, 2:58 pm

Tyek wrote:OSU is a good team, but by most Buckeye fans admissions this is a rebuilding year.

Being a sane Buckeye fan, which in some cases is tough to find

, going into the season I saw this as a rebuilding year for the offense. I felt that the defense would need to win them the games much like it did in 2002.

The reality of the situation is that the defense is even better than it was last year and is playing at an extremely high level. Also the offense is not having as big a drop off as was originally thought.

The O line is gelling after being shaky early.
Beanie Wells is taking over where Antonio Pittman left off.
If Beanie needs a break we have Mo Wells and Brandon Seine to step in.
Robiske and hartline have taken over for Ginn and Gonzo pretty seemlessly.
QB has been very solid with a little down, and some flashes of brilliance.

Over all this is a very solid team with an off the chart defense.

Do I see why people bitch about the schedule? Sure, but all the team can do is win the games that are put in front of them and they are. Impressively at that. No one has scored more than 14 on them and reallistically they have several games that were virtual shutouts.

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » October 15, 2007, 3:08 pm

Winnow wrote:"The Game" Michigan vs Ohio State, first year: 1897

"Duel in the Desert" (Territorial Cup) Arizona vs Arizona State, first year: 1899

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NC ... alry_games

Go fuck yourself and your two extra years. Big deal.

Arizona State has been playing football since 1897. As far as I can tell, Michigan has played since 1886 (prior to that, a goalie is listed as a position so that doesn't seem like real football to me) so you've got 11 years on us which doesn't amount to much considering the totals of 110 and 121 years played. I find it more impressive that a team in a territorial state at the time has played that long. (AZ became a state in 1912, Michigan in 1837)

1897 for a Western state that's not California is impressive to me as there wasn't a whole hell of a lot out here yet the Michigan/OhioSU rivalry is only 2 years older.

Sueven can go fuck himself with this East Coast bias on this one.

Man Winnow get your panties in a bunch much?
No one is saying OSU/Michigan is better because it has been around longer.

OSU/Michigan > ASU/Arizona because more often than not it means something.
For a very very long time OSU/Michigan determined who won the Big Ten and represented in the Rose Bowl. It's Woody and Bo and all of the other history.

Other than in state bragging rights how often has ASU/Arizona decided the Pac 10 championship? My guess would be a very slim number of times.

How often do you hear "OSU vs Michigan is this week and it's a can't miss game." as opposed to "Man you just have to watch ASU vs Arizona."?

Is ASU/Arizona good and heated rivalry, especially within Arizona? I would imagine it is.
Is as nationally significant as some of the other rivalries like OSU/UM, bama/Auburn, Fla/Georgia, USC/UCLA, USC/ND, etc? No not really.

Whats even more funny is the very Wiki you quote proves my point.

teh Wiki wrote:The Michigan-Ohio State Rivalry is the intense rivalry between the University of Michigan and The Ohio State University football teams. Many consider the rivalry to be one of the biggest in all sports.

The annual matchup between the two Midwest state schools has been held at the end of the regular season since 1935.[1] Since 1918, the game's site has alternated between Columbus, Ohio, and Ann Arbor, Michigan, and has been played in Ohio Stadium since 1922 and Michigan Stadium since 1927. Since each school routinely ranks among the strongest in the country, the game often has implications for the Big Ten Conference title and national championship. Michigan vs. Ohio State was ranked by ESPN in 2000 as the greatest North American sports rivalry.[2]

the Wiki wrote:The rivalry between ASU and UA is among the nation's oldest and most heated rivalries, including the oldest trophy in college football. The winner of the game is then given possession of the Territorial Cup until the game is played the next year. In the modern era of the game, it is played on the day after Thanksgiving (and in recent years on the Saturday after Thanksgiving to accommodate network television coverage).

The rivalry dates back to before Arizona was admitted as a state, and was a U.S. Territory. In the early history of Arizona, a resentment between the cities of Phoenix and Tucson emerged. The University of Arizona was founded in 1885 as the state's first university. The same year, Tempe Normal School was founded as a small teacher's college in the farming community of Tempe, just east of Phoenix. Over the years, Tempe Normal School evolved into Arizona State Teacher's College, then Arizona State College at Tempe, and eventually Arizona State University. Although both athletic programs have been consistently in the top 20 in the Director's Cup standings for the past decade, the two schools have featured a difference in athletic strengths.

Grats Arizona having the oldest NCAA trophy evar!!! That has to count for something.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 15, 2007, 3:30 pm

How does it feel to go 108 years without winning a football championship?

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » October 15, 2007, 5:46 pm

Humbling, you would think.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » October 15, 2007, 5:47 pm

I bet the ref's were cheating them all 108 years.

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » October 15, 2007, 6:44 pm

The cup was originally awarded to the Arizona Territorial Normal School football team for winning the Arizona Territorial Football League Championship after a season of three games in 1899. As a result, the cup is actually the property of Arizona State University. The Normals, as they were known at the time, were undefeated in gridiron matches with the Phoenix Union High School (6-0), the Phoenix Indian School (6-0) and the University of Arizona (11-2).

If ASU used to be "The Normals" instead of the Sundevils, why can't Winnow be normal?

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » October 15, 2007, 7:13 pm

Oh for christ's sake. I don't give a shit how much the players care about the rivalry. I don't care how long the rivalry has been running. All I'm saying is that the team who wins the OSU/UM game has accomplished something more impressive than the team that wins the ASU/UoA game. That's it. And it's fucking TRUE.

Looking for proof?

Here are the records of each of the four relevant schools, from 1996-2006. I was going to do the past 10 years (which would be 97-06), but hey, did you guys know that Arizona State would have won a national title if they didn't lose in 1996?!?!? I figured Winnow would bitch if I made the cutoff the year after his teams one good year, so I extended it to 11, mostly to prove the point that I can include his teams best year and STILL BE RIGHT.

Michigan: 104-32, 1 National Title, 5 BCS bowls, 11 bowls total
Ohio State: 108-29, 1 National Title, 7 BCS bowls, 11 bowls total
Arizona State: 77-56, 1 BCS bowl, 8 bowls total
Arizona: 58-70, 2 bowls total

Clear enough for you? That's not east coast bias, that's RESULTS.

So congratulations on manhandling your trash rival, but don't expect anyone to be sucking your dick on that basis.

Avatar bet proposal: If Arizona State gets to play OSU or Michigan in a bowl game this year, they will lose. I'll put 6 months of an avatar of either our choices on it (as long as it's work safe). So three outcomes: They don't play, no bet; ASU wins, I get 6 months; ASU loses, you get 6 months.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » October 15, 2007, 7:19 pm

Debating Winnow in the Sports forum is like debating certain other people in the Current Events forum.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » October 15, 2007, 7:23 pm

I'm a glutton for punishment

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » October 15, 2007, 7:24 pm

Don't forget that unless a loss comes up, the OSU/UM game will decide who goes to a BCS bowl.

Again.

Post by **Sylvus** » October 15, 2007, 8:14 pm

Winnow wrote:Arizona State has been playing football since 1897. As far as I can tell, Michigan has played since 1886 (prior to that, a goalie is listed as a position so that doesn't seem like real football to me) so you've got 11 years on us which doesn't amount to much considering the totals of 110 and 121 years played. I find it more impressive that a team in a territorial state at the time has played that long. (AZ became a state in 1912, Michigan in 1837)

Okay, so since they've been around about the same amount of time, they should have similar accomplishments on the field if you'd like to compare the two. Michigan has 42 conference championships, 38 bowl appearances (including 20 Rose Bowl appearances), 18 bowl victories and 11 National Championships. We're #1 All-Time in wins (860) and winning % (.745). We have one of the most dominant coaches in football history in Fielding H. Yost, and Bo Schembechler was pretty legendary himself. There are few things more recognizable in all of sports than the winged helmets, and we have the biggest stadium in the country and more people have been to watch Michigan Football in person than any other school.

I'll let zamtuk or sabek go ahead and give OSU's accomplishments, but they're pretty respectable (and better in some aspects) in their own right. To what degree can Arizona and Arizona state match up? If you added together the accomplishments of Arizona and Arizona state, would they eclipse either school in the Michigan/Ohio State rivalry? And no, I didn't forget that 10 years ago ASU almost played in a national championship game, even though it wasn't the national championship and they didn't win the game anyway.

To even try to compare the two is laughable. I doubt you'd even make the top 10. Let's do a google search and see what we can find. Not listed here. Don't see it here. Nor is it here, here or here. Oh, here I see it, listed at #61. Shut the fuck up. Seriously, you're a total fucking retard.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 15, 2007, 10:57 pm

Sylvus wrote:
Okay, so since they've been around about the same amount of time, they should have similar accomplishments on the field if you'd like to compare the two...

...Shut the fuck up. Seriously, you're a total fucking retard.

You're typically pretty bright Sylvus but in this case, you're comparing a megalopolis to a farm town back in the 1800's. They've played the same amount of time, but of course Michigan is going to have more accomplishments back through history as there was only like ten people in the state of Arizona back then dick.

The latest debate was over a rivalry game. Breaking stats out from anything besides the game itself doesn't matter much although I'd say within the last 5-6 years, Michigan is one of the most disappointing teams in sports when comparing their pre season rankings, record against their arch rival (1-5 vs OhioSU), and bowl game results (lost 5 of last six bowl games). If Michigan has higher standards than Arizona State, they've sure failed to live up to them lately.

That's the price you pay in "legacy" stats for living in a better part of the country that isn't as old and crusty as back east. Sports stats are really only good for the last, oh, 11 years or so. (12 next year)

These high and mighty Wolverines sure know how to lose the big games. I'd rather play OhioSU this year if given the opportunity. ASU beat Michigan in the last Rose Bowl matchup between the teams. ASU has something to prove to OhioSU for that last second Rose Bowl win in '97.

Here's to keeping the Cup in Tempe!

Sueven wrote:Avatar bet proposal: If Arizona State gets to play OSU or Michigan in a bowl game this year, they will lose. I'll put 6 months of an avatar of either our choices on it (as long as it's work safe). So three outcomes: They don't play, no bet; ASU wins, I get 6 months; ASU loses, you get 6 months.

I'll take that bet Sueven

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » October 15, 2007, 11:02 pm

Winnow wrote:The latest debate was over a rivalry game. Breaking stats out from anything besides the game itself doesn't matter much although I'd say within the last 5-6 years, Michigan is one of the most disappointing teams in sports when comparing their pre season rankings, record against their arch rival (1-5 vs OhioSU), and bowl game results (lost 5 of last six bowl games). If Michigan has higher standards than Arizona State, they've sure failed to live up to them lately.

um, did you have a point? the "latest debate" has never mattered to you. You change it every time you get called out for posting bullshit.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » October 15, 2007, 11:17 pm

Something that factors into the great rivalry games of sports is the magnitude of what's at stake. Which is precisely why historical stats are relevant. There is usually always something at stake when OSU/UM play. BCS bowls, big ten titles, as well as obvious bragging rights. Nothing significant ever takes place at a ASU/UA game, nothing. You get a cheap trophy (literally, the smallest rivalry trophy, I've ever seen) and bragging rights over a nearby town. Some years one team may play spoiler for the other, but hardly Pac ten titles.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 16, 2007, 12:00 am

Zamtuk wrote:Something that factors into the great rivalry games of sports is the magnitude of what's at stake.

Just a sampling:

There's a lot of bowls mixed in there. And that's from two teams that aren't the "glamour" teams of their conference. Not bad a all. I could give a fuck if you think they're important. When UofA ruined the perfect season for ASU (the year we beat down Michigan in the Rose Bowl), you bet your ass it meant something.

The highlighted games meant more nationally but it's all about beating the fucking Wildcats every year no matter what's at stake. That's a rivalry and there's obvious consequences .

Michigan/OSU may mean the Big Ten title lately (only two teams in the conference worth a damn recently so it's kind of a given in that conference) but all it means is who's going to go on to get crushed in a bowl game afterwards.

Aardor · Post by **Aardor** » October 16, 2007, 12:18 am

The real college rivalry has this for a prize: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeweled_Shillelagh