Interesting Artwork from North Korea!

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 15, 2003, 2:02 pm

what context is that picture used in xou?

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » January 15, 2003, 2:03 pm

That's it! Send in Hawkeye and Klinger!

Post by **Xouqoa** » January 15, 2003, 2:05 pm

It's (according to Yahoo!) a poster in a North Korean shoe factory. It was used in one of the articles posted on Yahoo that discussed the DPRK rejecting US offers for aid if they disarm and stand down on their nuclear facilities.

Caption wrote:A poster depicting missiles hitting the U.S. Capitol building hangs on a wall of a shoe factory in Sinuiju, North Korea (news - web sites), in this Sept. 25, 2002 file photo. The isolated regime's bellicose rhetoric reached a new pitch in the past week, when North Korea escalated its nuclear standoff with Washington, warning of a 'Third World War,'' 'a sea of fire'' and a 'holy war' against the United States.(AP Photo)

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 15, 2003, 2:08 pm

odd to me that a communist run paper would use the term 'holy war' when communism does everything it can to reject religion in favor of the state.

north koreans are crazy ass mother fuckers though.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » January 15, 2003, 2:37 pm

Hrmm, North Korea agrees to disarm in order to recieve money and aid from the U.S.

North Korea goes down the tubes economically over a few years.

North Korea again begins it's nuclear programs, at the same time making Brer Rabbit noises about how they won't negotiate the right to do so away.

It's a fucking fishing trip to see what goodies the world will drop on them to shut the hell up. Nothing more than that.

rhyae · Post by **rhyae** » January 15, 2003, 2:42 pm

On the news this morning they reported that North Korea planned to step up its Anti-American propaganda...

What would a step up from that be?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 15, 2003, 2:44 pm

Fallanthas wrote:Hrmm, North Korea agrees to disarm in order to recieve money and aid from the U.S.

North Korea goes down the tubes economically over a few years.

North Korea again begins it's nuclear programs, at the same time making Brer Rabbit noises about how they won't negotiate the right to do so away.

It's a fucking fishing trip to see what goodies the world will drop on them to shut the hell up. Nothing more than that.

I'm wondering now if its even possible to be more misinformed than you.

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » January 15, 2003, 2:46 pm

rhyae wrote:On the news this morning they reported that North Korea planned to step up its Anti-American propaganda...

What would a step up from that be?

Home movie of GWB on vacation at his ranch in Texas broadcast on every TV station 24/7??

noel · Post by **noel** » January 15, 2003, 2:48 pm

I had one of my Korean co-workers translate the text on the poster.

It basically says:
"If the US makes war on North Korea... We will destroy (retaliate) the US."

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » January 15, 2003, 2:49 pm

Which part did you miss, Kyou?

Twenty bucks says that the North Koreans are at the barganing table in less than a month, and that they once again agree not to pursue nuclear programs in return for increases in aid and incentives.

Gordiken the Wicked · January 15, 2003, 2:50 pm

If you are interested in this, here is some of the propaganda the N. Koreans pump out every day. http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm Also gives daily events and such of DPRK.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 15, 2003, 2:51 pm

Fallanthas wrote:Which part did you miss, Kyou?

The part where the Republican controlled congress and now the Bush Administration failed utterly to live up the Agreed Framework outlined in the 1993 nulcear non-proliferation treaty drafted by both countries.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » January 15, 2003, 2:54 pm

Kyoukan, you are so entirely wrong, I will assume you to be misinformed rather than that blatantly ignorant.

Gordiken the Wicked · January 15, 2003, 2:56 pm

I thought the initial agreement was in 1968. I'm probaly wrong though, just thought that was what I'd heard.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 15, 2003, 2:57 pm

So where are north korea's two light water reactors the US promised to have built for them by 2003? Are you going to throw them up in the next 11 months?

No hydro reactors + no fuel oil = nuclear power plants get reactivated so they can, you know, have lights and heat and stuff.

Go and read the original Agreed Framework in the pact signed by the two countries and then come back and tell me that I am wrong.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » January 15, 2003, 2:59 pm

Oh for Christs sake.

Lady, you have got such a hard on for the U.S. you would argue about whether or not the sky was fucking blue if President Bush made a statement ont he subject.

Give it a rest.

The little fucks are fishing for more money. They are doing it right now because they know the U.S. would rather concentrate on one situation instead of two. It's such a blatant attempt at blackmail it's pathetic.

Post by **Xouqoa** » January 15, 2003, 2:59 pm

kyoukan type-R wrote:odd to me that a communist run paper would use the term 'holy war' when communism does everything it can to reject religion in favor of the state.

north koreans are crazy ass mother fuckers though.

There's even more irony in the fact that they have the word "Democratic" in their official country name. A communist country calling themselves a democracy? Har.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 15, 2003, 3:01 pm

most communist countries use the term democratic a lot.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 15, 2003, 3:05 pm

Fallanthas wrote:Oh for Christs sake.

Lady, you have got such a hard on for the U.S. you would argue about whether or not the sky was fucking blue if President Bush made a statement ont he subject.

Damn, I am not smart or informed enough to discuss this topic. Oh, I know what I can say: KYOUKAN IS ANTI AMERICAN! KYOUKAN HATES AMERICA AND AMERICANS AND REALLY HATES AMERICA!

Yeah, that will shut her up; because like me she is really stupid and falls for obvious misdirections like this moronic ploy.

noel · Post by **noel** » January 15, 2003, 3:09 pm

Whether or not you are or are not anti-american, you do tend to come off that way at times.

Don't get me wrong, I've read and spoken with enough people who aren't from the United States/subjected to our media to realize that there are VERY differing views of the United States. I also appreciate the alternate perspective that you bring to the table, but yes, at times you do seem anti-American.

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » January 15, 2003, 3:10 pm

No hydro reactors + no fuel oil = nuclear power plants get reactivated so they can, you know, have lights and heat and stuff.

Those nuclear power plants provide hardly any power, pretty much their sole purpose is making nuclear weapons. Please don't call someone uninformed then make that statement.

For the rest: I for one could care less if we don't follow Clinton's policy of appeasement.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 15, 2003, 3:11 pm

is it because I am either with you or against you??

miir · Post by **miir** » January 15, 2003, 3:15 pm

Those nuclear power plants provide hardly any power, pretty much their sole purpose is making nuclear weapons

If you had any idea how ignorant that statement is....

Gordiken the Wicked · January 15, 2003, 3:18 pm

Yea that was a pretty stupid statement about the Nuclear Plants not providing any power. There's OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of people here spouting off some pretty funny things. But hey keep at it, it's entertaining!

noel · Post by **noel** » January 15, 2003, 3:18 pm

No, and frankly, I don't care if you are or if you aren't. Like I said, I appreciate the perspective that you bring. I think most of it has to do with the context of this board.

Discussing US policy and politics with people who assume they're informed is probably tedious at times. However, I don't think I've ever seen you concede any points favourable to the US in a discussion here and I don't think I've ever seen you praise the US for any action that it's taken.

I think part of the problem is that many US citizens don't know or care what's going on in the rest of the world. There is a large majority of our populace that is quite happy in the (relative) safety of the US. They don't perceive the actions we take abroad, or our foreign policy as having a direct affect on them, so they develop an apathy for the truth, and accept whatever news fits in their view of how the world is.

I'm not slamming your views here. Just saying that yes, at times you do come off as being anti-American.

Ulvian · Post by **Ulvian** » January 15, 2003, 3:20 pm

Third World War...

I do not think anyone short of Osama Bin Laden is actually stupid enough to consider that as an option.

With the current level of power Nuclear Weapons and Biochemical weapons carry, this kind of a war would have no victors. Its very much as the suicide bombers. You might take out your target, but sure as hell are not making it out yourself.

Now let us just play with the idea that North Korea indeed did win the war, and was not leveled itself in the process. Beside the point the UN would extract vengeance, many countries would launch a counter offensive as means of stopping the victor from further utilizing their nuclear warfare capabilities.

Now...can someone tell me why are we fucked up as a race?

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » January 15, 2003, 3:25 pm

Those nuclear power plants provide hardly any power

I'm sorry, I should have made HARDLY in all caps for the reading impaired.

Ulvian · Post by **Ulvian** » January 15, 2003, 3:35 pm

Communism "Can" be a democracy, all that Communism stands for is that people who work in the country gain equal benefit out of their work. That all people have jobs availeable to them. That no starvation is present because people all have at least enough money to live and get by.

Communism itself is an equal society with no classes. You could say that its a perfect society, but in practice it does not work out at all... I can not think of a single communist country whose leaders were not corrupted by their power. Themselves living in luxury, while other people were badly off. This ties in to the "sharing of wealth" concept of communism, leaders who distribute badly, end up taking more than their share of the nation's income.

Democracy is nothing other than a way leadership is carried out. Ie: In a communist country the whole nation would vote for their leaders (none of that pre-set ballot bullshit either) Those leaders would then simply represent nothing other than the interests of their people.

I was raised in Eastern Europe during the late 1980's, and frankly it wasn't as bad as some present it in retro spective. True there wasnt much in terms of luxury, but I do not remember anyone being homeless, or without a job. For the most part people who chose to work, always had jobs availeable to them and their famillies. And did not have to tighten their belts towards the end of the month.

Communism much like Anarchy is a system which would only work out if people themselves lost qualities of greed and jealousy. Greedy leaders is what ruins the communist system, not the basic principles it is based around. Surely all people being equal is not a bad thing.

Off topic, its like Anarchy. The idea is that people do not need laws and leaders to show them how to live, because the system assumes that people themselves would not try to obtain more than they need for a comfortable lifestyle. That they would not kill or rob others for self gain, or participate in violence for purpose of pleasure. Sadly much like communism, element of greed, jealousy, and depravity exists in the society. And many people would kill someone who pissed them off if there wasnt an underlying fear of going to jail, or being executed for it.

Capitalism which is at the moment doing the best of all systems is unjust if anything if you think about it. People do not have equal lives for the simple reason that their parents might not have had as much luck with life as someone elses. While it seems fair that children of rich people should be able to partake in gains their parents accumulated before the children themselves were born, this is unfair to children born to poor couples. Only thing which influenced their lower lifestyle/poverty is that their parents did not have as much success in life as someone elses.

Also while in Capitalism working your way up is a very real possibility, its much more difficult for people who did not have much money to begin with. For the greater part people's "classes" live in similar areas with others of the same demographic. Medical care isnt as good (hey its not free you know) and neither are the schools (Check out the level of schooling in a suburb, versus lets say a Brooklyn school)

Id write more, but Im sure that Im already earning "Commie" title, and besides, this is an EQ BB, not a place to discuss whats fucked up about the world.

miir · Post by **miir** » January 15, 2003, 3:38 pm

pretty much their sole purpose is making nuclear weapons

Nuclear power plants do not produce nuclear weapons.

Those nuclear power plants provide hardly any power

In order to produce weapons grade plutonium, a nuclear power plant must produce power. The amount of weapons grade plutonium produced is relative to the amount of power produced.

Weapons grade plutonium != nuclear weapons.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » January 15, 2003, 3:38 pm

Anyone who believes Kyoukan is not anti American is just kidding themselves, Kyoukan is AntiAmerican, AntiRepublican and ProLiberal.

Nuclear Power Plants can be used as a source of Enriched materials. Enriched materials and a second rate machine shop=nuclear weapons capability

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » January 15, 2003, 3:45 pm

Mr. Aoyama calls Yongbyon "a gigantic nuclear complex" with about 20,000 researchers and their families living there. He describes the nuclear reactors and plants for reprocessing and enriching uranium. Only a few buildings are above ground, he writes, while "all other facilities lie underground." The purpose of the complex, he says, "was to produce nuclear bombs."

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/200 ... 924287.htm

They reopened the plants, but I'm sure N Korea has turned a new leaf!

Pubin · Post by **Pubin** » January 15, 2003, 3:58 pm

All I can say is forget Sadam, we damn well should be intimidated by North Korea. They are more dangerous than my grandma's boner.

Hiddukel · Post by **Hiddukel** » January 15, 2003, 4:31 pm

agree ^

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » January 15, 2003, 4:52 pm

Brotha wrote:Those nuclear power plants provide hardly any power

Pure classic. Just when you think they can't get any dumber....

With regards to labelling people anti-american that is a major problem of US culture. I watched a debate this morning on CNN and the republican (assuming it was republican vs democrat..I missed the introductions) was having his ass handed to him and actually resorted to calling the democrat un-american for not supporting Bush's war plans.

American patriotism conditions the population to behave this way. Foreign critics are labelled anti-american. Domestic critics are labelled un-american. Isn't the use of these stigma's to try to silence critics, especially in light of freedom of speech, un-american?

Canadian culture isn't like this at all. We critisize our government freely. I've never heard of anyone being called un-canadian for questioning\critisizing the governement.

Just because someone critisizes the US on some events doesn't make them anti-american. There is plenty I like about the US (taxes, constitution, government structure for example) and there are things I don't like (OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of foreign policy, gun laws, electorate for example).

When the majority of subjects we discuss are on US foreign policy you may think I'm anti-american. Maybe you should consider it isn't that I'm anti-american but rather that US foreign policy sucks ass (and the retards like brotha).

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » January 15, 2003, 4:59 pm

Way to ignore my entire arguement by me slipping on a word, then calling me a retard. Point taken Forthe!!

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » January 15, 2003, 4:59 pm

Yes Forthe, our sending billions of dollars outside our own borders every year in an effort to help other countries sure sucks ass.

Just ask any taxpayer.

And of course things like supporting the freedom of smaller countries against larger ones is just....wrong.

My government does things I don't like. I think they are about to make a very large mistake right now. Well, two of em actually. I also recoignize that they do some very positive things, both inside and outside the borders of the United States.

You get labelled as anti-American when every freaking post is "The United States is wrong". Same for Kyoukan.

Look, we trade with damn near every corner of this planet. It is a matter of self-interest to keep things as peaceful as possible. I'm sorry if that bothers you.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » January 15, 2003, 5:23 pm

Fallanthas wrote:Yes Forthe, our sending billions of dollars outside our own borders every year in an effort to help other countries sure sucks ass.

Just ask any taxpayer.

And of course things like supporting the freedom of smaller countries against larger ones is just....wrong.

Did I ever critisize foreign aid? Well I could critisize the foriegn aid to folks like Sadam.

I also wouldn't critisize a just intervention. The Gulf war and liberation of Kuwait was just.

Simple fix for US foreign policy: respect the sovereignty of foreign states. It really is that simple.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » January 15, 2003, 5:25 pm

Even those such as Saddam?

How about Arafat?

Sorry, it's not that simple. I wish it were.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · January 15, 2003, 5:26 pm

kyoukan type-R wrote:
Fallanthas wrote:Oh for Christs sake.

Lady, you have got such a hard on for the U.S. you would argue about whether or not the sky was fucking blue if President Bush made a statement ont he subject.
Damn, I am not smart or informed enough to discuss this topic. Oh, I know what I can say: KYOUKAN IS ANTI AMERICAN! KYOUKAN HATES AMERICA AND AMERICANS AND REALLY HATES AMERICA!

Yeah, that will shut her up; because like me she is really stupid and falls for obvious misdirections like this moronic ploy.

Wow. You really are certifiable.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 15, 2003, 5:29 pm

Brotha wrote:Those nuclear power plants provide hardly any power, pretty much their sole purpose is making nuclear weapons. Please don't call someone uninformed then make that statement.

For the rest: I for one could care less if we don't follow Clinton's policy of appeasement.

Do you have even the faintest idea how much energy you must generate in order to turn uranium into nuclear weapons grade material?

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » January 15, 2003, 5:33 pm

I was talking about how you're acting like these nuclear reactors were opened so they could supply the poor starving N Koreans w/ energy so they could turn their lights on at night, which they're obviously not. I should be more specific in the future I guess.

Post by **Xouqoa** » January 15, 2003, 5:38 pm

Supposedly (as in I read/heard it somewhere, but don't remember where) the power grids in North Korea are already over saturated with energy (too much being produced) but they have no infrastructure to deliver it to most of the country because they can't afford it. So if that's true, operating the nuclear plants to 'produce engergy' seems a bit farcical.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 15, 2003, 5:43 pm

Communism actually works fairly well in small voluntary communities (like omg hippy communes and small religious sects), but when you force it on large groups of people it is destined to fail because human beings are instinctively very tribal and very classist by nature.

Republics like N. Korea, China and the former USSR are more fascist (and in korea's case, also dictatorships) being run under the guise of socialism and communism. The very notion of a "communist government" is oxymoronic in that you are already dividing the leaders up from the rabble and putting people into have and have not categories before you even start.

Idealistically it is probably the best way to live because in a classless society everyone's day's labor counts just as much as everyone else's and everyone is equally important. Pragmatically, the very idea of enforced communism goes against almost every instinct of humanity, and will never succeed outside of communities where it's a voluntary way of life (and usually protected by a larger democratic government). People are inherently ambitious and desire to become "better" than everyone else around them.

Jesus preached a less complex version of communism in the bible (tho he obviously didn't call it that).

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » January 15, 2003, 5:45 pm

Even those such as Saddam?

Yes. He should have been removed after the gulf war. You will have to ask George Sr. why he wasn't.

Doing so now 12 years later when he hasn't done anything since then isn't just.

How about Arafat?

Yes. We should be enforcing the UN resolutions. 50 years late but set up the palestine state and get Israel out of the occupied lands. We (the allies) royally screwed the palastines. First we promise them (actually force on them) their own state and then forget them. Then we ignore Israel occupying their lands and settling in them.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 15, 2003, 5:47 pm

Xouqoa wrote:Supposedly (as in I read/heard it somewhere, but don't remember where) the power grids in North Korea are already over saturated with energy (too much being produced) but they have no infrastructure to deliver it to most of the country because they can't afford it. So if that's true, operating the nuclear plants to 'produce engergy' seems a bit farcical.

I would be interested in where you heard that since N. Korea's fossil fuel power plants are currently without any fossil fuel to power them. Maybe all the N. Koreans are pedalling furiously on excercise bikes hooked up to generators? I don't know??!?!

Post by **Xouqoa** » January 15, 2003, 5:49 pm

hehe =)

They have a field full of these I bet! -- http://static.userland.com/images/dss/980hamster.jpg

I seem to remember it being a news bit off of Yahoo when this whole thing first started... but that would have been a while ago so I don't know if there is really any way of going and looking for it. =\ Most likely it was Reuters or AP that released it, though.. it wasn't on a website from a newpaper or station or anything.

Edit: went through yahoo archives on North Korea press releases but couldn't find it... but there were like 500 of them since November '02 and I didn't read even 10% of them... it might be in there, or I might have imagined it completely.

I'm pretty sure I remember reading that, but it could have been false info anyway.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » January 15, 2003, 6:25 pm

Forthe,

So it's not that all Soveriegnties should be respected, it's that you don't agree with the ones that have been violated.

Not so simple anymore, is it?

Communism actually works fairly well in small voluntary communities (like omg hippy communes and small religious sects), but when you force it on large groups of people it is destined to fail because human beings are instinctively very tribal and very classist by nature.

Republics like N. Korea, China and the former USSR are more fascist (and in korea's case, also dictatorships) being run under the guise of socialism and communism. The very notion of a "communist government" is oxymoronic in that you are already dividing the leaders up from the rabble and putting people into have and have not categories before you even start.

Idealistically it is probably the best way to live because in a classless society everyone's day's labor counts just as much as everyone else's and everyone is equally important. Pragmatically, the very idea of enforced communism goes against almost every instinct of humanity, and will never succeed outside of communities where it's a voluntary way of life (and usually protected by a larger democratic government). People are inherently ambitious and desire to become "better" than everyone else around them.

Jesus preached a less complex version of communism in the bible (tho he obviously didn't call it that).

Damn. Nice post. I can't find a single thing there to argue over.

I am off now to make sure water is still wet.

rhyae · Post by **rhyae** » January 15, 2003, 6:28 pm

Forthe wrote:
Canadian culture isn't like this at all. We critisize our government freely. I've never heard of anyone being called un-canadian for questioning\critisizing the governement.

Heh, so do we. I'm glad every day I was born in America but it doesnt mean I'm ignorant to its problems. In my area alone we have many public programs that question the validity of what our government is doing.
"Democracy Now", "Counterspin", "Free Speach Radio News" are good places to start.
Trust me, there are plenty of Americans that disagree with what's going on and are vocal about it. Unfortunately, not many people bother to turn off their nintendos and pay attention.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 15, 2003, 6:40 pm

btw

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/nuke/index.html

Most relevent parts:

Under the framework agreement, the North would freeze and eventually dismantle its existing suspect nuclear program, including the 50 MW and 200 MW graphite-moderated reactors under construction, as well as its existing 5 MW reactor and nuclear fuel reprocessing facility. In return, Pyongyang would be provided with alternative energy, initially in the form of heavy oil, and eventually two proliferation-resistant light water reactors (LWR). The two 1,000 MW light-water nuclear reactors would be safer and would produce much less plutonium, in order to help boost the supply of electricity in the North, which is now in a critical shortage. The agreement also included gradual improvement of relations between the US and the DPRK, and committed North Korea to engage in South-North dialogue.

Pyongyang is cooperating with Korean Peninsula Energy Development Organization, whose leading members are South Korea, the United States and Japan. KEDO has reached an agreement on the provision of the light-water nuclear reactors by 2003, and, in return, North Korea has frozen its nuclear program. South Korea, which has promised to bear the lion's share of the reactor project cost estimated at US$4.5 billion, is asking the United States to put up at least a symbolic amount. The US administration, however, has said it can make no contribution to the construction cost as Congress has not appropriated the necessary budget. An official in Seoul, however, said that South Korea cannot drop its demand simply because of domestic problems in the United States. The US Congress has been delaying approval of the cost for the reactor project. South Korean officials said the U.S. refusal to share the reactor cost would make it difficult for them to obtain approval from the National Assembly for the South Korean share.

I'm not saying North Korea is in the right or that I support them (I think their government is probably one the most corrupt and evil ones on the planet), but I think its on right to show the other side of the story. The North Koreans only stopped their nuke program because they were promised incentives to do so. These incentives never materialized in the Agreed Framework that was signed, because the new Republican congress that took over during the Clinton Administration decided to back out on the money promised to fund it. I personally am surprised that the North Koreans waited all the way until the 2003 deadline for their water reactors before restarting their old plants and announcing their nuclear weapons program.

There's always a spin on what the media tells you. So far all I've heard in the American media is that N. Korea just arbitrarily started their nuke program again as some asinine bargaining tool for more money and food handouts. It clearly isn't true.

Also, if the president of the most powerful nation in the world put me on his list of countries he wants to fuck up (ie. axis of omg evil), you can bet your ass that I'd start stockpiling nukes to defend myself; especially considering the first country he named in the list is about to get blown to smithereens.

VeeshanVault

Interesting Artwork from North Korea!

Interesting Artwork from North Korea!

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