Judge Rules Parts Of Patriot Act Unconstitutional

[Aabidano]

I figured sanity would shine through at some point. I guess the executive branch really does have to adhere to the constitution after all. Despite its flaws, the reason the US has existed as a nation this long is the initial structure of our government and our hesitance to mess with it.

"For over 200 years, this Nation has adhered to the rule of law -- with unparalleled success. A shift to a Nation based on extra-constitutional authority is prohibited, as well as ill-advised," she wrote.

http://cbs5.com/breakingnewsalerts/loca ... 91331.html

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Portland, Oregon. What a shocker.

[Fash]

Because where it happened really matters.

I agree with the judge, they should be required to have probable cause... In this case, why wasn't the fingerprint enough? (i understand it was 'misread', but initially they thought it was his)

I realize I've supported the patriot act before, but I'm not that stubborn to be blind of it's problems if the 'spirit' of the act isn't followed.

I might look the other way if they believed an attack was imminent and were able to stop it with a warrant-less search, but the truth is there are judges on the hook 24/7 that could provide a warrant before the team could even get into location.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Because where it happened really matters.
.

Well, actually, in this case it does. Portland is super mega liberal. So, it's not surprising to me this came from a judge in Portland.

[Fairweather Pure]

Because where it happened really matters.
.

Well, actually, in this case it does. Portland is super mega liberal. So, it's not surprising to me this came from a judge in Portland.

Don't muddy the waters with your bias. Do you agree or disagree with her ruling?

[Aslanna]

oh nos the dirty liberals actually believe in the Constitution. Nuke em quick before they breed and spread their crazy ideals even further.

[Fash]

“I, <name>, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”

I fail to see any reference to the perceived political bias of the area where they're serving.

It's nonsense to talk about it being in portland... It's a federal judge handing down a ruling that the patriot act is unconstitutional. Unless appealed to the supreme court, it is now established case law and can be used in other lawsuits. I doubt the supreme court would disagree with her decision... but we'll probably find out.

[Kaldaur]

Oath taken by Federal Judges wrote:

I've never met someone who is named "Oath taken by Federal Judges". His parents must have been jackasses.

In regards to the topic, it's good to see wisdom playing out in our courts system. It's a shame it took them six years to respond to the giant skidmarks on the Consitution, but six years is better than seven, I suppose.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

“I, <name>, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”

I fail to see any reference to the perceived political bias of the area where they're serving.

It's nonsense to talk about it being in portland... It's a federal judge handing down a ruling that the patriot act is unconstitutional. Unless appealed to the supreme court, it is now established case law and can be used in other lawsuits. I doubt the supreme court would disagree with her decision... but we'll probably find out.

You're probably right. Federal Judges are beyond making ruling based on any personal feelings or viewpoints.

[Sylvus]

You do realize that federal judges are appointed by the president, and confirmed by the senate?

If I'm not mistaken, political slant of the local populace does not enter into the equation, as they are not voting for them.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

You do realize that federal judges are appointed by the president, and confirmed by the senate?

If I'm not mistaken, political slant of the local populace does not enter into the equation, as they are not voting for them.

You do realize there have been other presidents before Bush, right?

Ann L. Aiken (born December 29, 1951) is a United States District Court judge for the District of Oregon.

Aiken was born in Salem, Oregon and graduated from the University of Oregon in 1974, Rutgers University in 1976, and the University of Oregon School of Law in 1979. She was a district judge in Oregon from 1988 to 1992, a circuit judge in Oregon from 1992 to 1997. President Bill Clinton appointed her to a seat vacated by James A. Redden; Aiken and was confirmed by the U.S. Senate on January 28, 1998, receiving her commission on February 4, 1998.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Mayfield was born in Coos Bay, Oregon, but grew up in Halstead, Kansas. He served in the US Army Reserve from 1985 to 1989; he later served as an officer with the Army in Bitburg, Germany from 1992 to 1994. He met his wife Mona, an Egyptian national and the daughter of a college professor, on a blind date in 1987, and converted to Islam following his marriage to her shortly afterwards. While he was a regular worshiper at the Beaverton mosque, his colleagues were unaware of his religious beliefs. The imam of the mosque has described Mayfield as "very patriotic".

He studied law at Washburn University and Lewis and Clark College, receiving his law degree from Washburn in 1999, and practicing family law in Newport, before moving to the Portland area. Mayfield performed work for the Modest Means Program of the Oregon State Bar, which matches attorneys who are willing to work at reduced rates with low-income clients. In 2003 he offered legal aid to Jeffrey Leon Battle, one of the Portland Seven, a group of people that was convicted of trying to travel to Afghanistan to help the Taliban. Battle at the time was involved in a child custody case.

A bag containing detonating devices, found by Spanish authorities following the Madrid commuter train bombings, had fingerprints that were initially identified by the FBI as belonging to Mayfield ("100% verified").

They had more than enough reason to do what they did. I'm glad for him and his family that has regained his freedom.

[Fash]

The problem is you're assuming right off the bat that it's a biased ruling.... Why? because it's from oregon? or because it's against the patriot act?

Considering that most people do not agree with warrant-less searches, it's the wrong position to take without really getting into the issue.

For the case at hand, the madrid bombings... They mis-read a fingerprint and thought this guy might be involved... There was no intelligence regarding an imminent attack here... so... Would it have been so hard to go by the books and get a warrant to check this guy out? Why the secret searches?

If a lot of people were upset by the judges ruling, maybe you'd have a reason to claim bias, but I just don't see it. Regardless, it's not over... I'm sure there'll be more discussion on this topic.

[Sylvus]

You do realize there have been other presidents before Bush, right?

I absolutely do. A couple dozen, maybe even like 42ish! Notice where I don't say anything about which president appointed her. I just pointed out that mentioning the political leanings of the location was a fallacy.

I guess I just had trouble seeing how the following statements linked to each other.

Portland, Oregon. What a shocker.

Because where it happened really matters.

Well, actually, in this case it does. Portland is super mega liberal. So, it's not surprising to me this came from a judge in Portland.

Federal Judges are not voted on by local voters

Hence my comment about how federal judges get their jobs. So the comments about Portland being super mega liberal are relevant to her being appointed by a President in what way? I'm just a student of logic here looking to learn from the master. A simple-minded child looking for direction from a complex thinker. How do you arrive at the conclusion from your premises?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

The problem is you're assuming right off the bat that it's a biased ruling.... Why? because it's from oregon? or because it's against the patriot act?

Both. Plus, seeing they both are from Portland, I'd be interested to see how long they knew eachother, what connections they have or what connections he has with people in power who are in the Judges ear.

Considering that most people do not agree with warrant-less searches, it's the wrong position to take without really getting into the issue.

??? I don't give a fuck what perception is being shoved down your throat about what "most people" believe in. Wrong position? haha

For the case at hand, the madrid bombings... They mis-read a fingerprint and thought this guy might be involved... There was no intelligence regarding an imminent attack here... so... Would it have been so hard to go by the books and get a warrant to check this guy out? Why the secret searches?

Would have been so hard? I doubt it. Would have been nice if they did, but under the Patriot Act they didn't have to. Also, you have no idea where there was imminent danger. Hindsight is 20/20.

If a lot of people were upset by the judges ruling, maybe you'd have a reason to claim bias, but I just don't see it. Regardless, it's not over... I'm sure there'll be more discussion on this topic.

I don't base my opinion on whether there are enough others being outspoken about the same thing. I don't need to follow, I lead...bitch.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

You do realize there have been other presidents before Bush, right?

I absolutely do. A couple dozen, maybe even like 42ish! Notice where I don't say anything about which president appointed her. I just pointed out that mentioning the political leanings of the location was a fallacy.

I guess I just had trouble seeing how the following statements linked to each other.

Portland, Oregon. What a shocker.

Because where it happened really matters.

Well, actually, in this case it does. Portland is super mega liberal. So, it's not surprising to me this came from a judge in Portland.

Federal Judges are not voted on by local voters

Hence my comment about how federal judges get their jobs. So the comments about Portland being super mega liberal are relevant to her being appointed by a President in what way? I'm just a student of logic here looking to learn from the master. A simple-minded child looking for direction from a complex thinker. How do you arrive at the conclusion from your premises?

Try reading the rest of what I qouted, you simple-minded stink knuckle.

[Fash]

Only thing I can think of from his viewpoint is that she is from oregon and has worked exclusively in that area since she graduated.

Anyways, it's not incorrect to believe judges should be above allowing any personal bias when it comes to constitutionality... When someone does that's when you attack them, but you need more than a hunch. A judge can't just say 'because,' they actually have to provide the basis for their judgments. In this case it's pretty clear in the 4th amendment that you need probable cause.

[Fash]

I don't base my opinion on whether there are enough others being outspoken about the same thing. I don't need to follow, I lead...bitch.

There's a cliff up ahead... lead on.

[masteen]

I don't base my opinion on whether there are enough others being outspoken about the same thing. I don't need to follow, I lead...bitch.

There's a cliff up ahead... lead on.

And the slope gets real slippery the closer you get.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I don't base my opinion on whether there are enough others being outspoken about the same thing. I don't need to follow, I lead...bitch.

There's a cliff up ahead... lead on.

As a leader, I'd stear my troops away from it. Thanks for the heads up on the cliff coming up ahead. You are a valued employee.

[Fairweather Pure]

Midnyte, you make this thread awesome. Hell, you make this whole board awesome. Sometimes, I just think I'm an average guy with average intelligence, but when I read your posts I get this huge boost of confidence. You cement by beliefs in so many different aspects of life, ranging from politics to complex social issues, by just being yourself. I thank you for not leaving the boards and continuing to post your honest thoughts and opinions.

I vote that this thread should be archeived as an example of textbook Midnyte. Seriously, it brings a smile to my face!

[Fash]

I don't base my opinion on whether there are enough others being outspoken about the same thing. I don't need to follow, I lead...bitch.

There's a cliff up ahead... lead on.

And the slope gets real slippery the closer you get.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Midnyte, you make this thread awesome. Hell, you make this whole board awesome. Sometimes, I just think I'm an average guy with average intelligence, but when I read your posts I get this huge boost of confidence. You cement by beliefs in so many different aspects of life, ranging from politics to complex social issues, by just being yourself. I thank you for not leaving the boards and continuing to post your honest thoughts and opinions.

I vote that this thread should be archeived as an example of textbook Midnyte. Seriously, it brings a smile to my face!

I aims to please massa.

[Fairweather Pure]

Midnyte, you make this thread awesome. Hell, you make this whole board awesome. Sometimes, I just think I'm an average guy with average intelligence, but when I read your posts I get this huge boost of confidence. You cement by beliefs in so many different aspects of life, ranging from politics to complex social issues, by just being yourself. I thank you for not leaving the boards and continuing to post your honest thoughts and opinions.

I vote that this thread should be archeived as an example of textbook Midnyte. Seriously, it brings a smile to my face!

I aims to please massa.

It's even more impressive, if the rumors are actually true, that you manage all this despite being both mentally handicapped and are a direct decendant of voracious inbreeding. You face more prejudice in one day, than a flaming gay, black, Iraqi would face in a lifetime. Just promise me you will never, ever change. I'm using you as the control subject for social and political issues, so please do not let a single ounce of logic or empathy penetrate that brain of yours.

[Boogahz]

wtf is a stink knuckle?

[Spang]

2 in the pink, 1 in the stink

[Boogahz]

okay...never heard it referred to as a stink knuckle before. Maybe it's a regional thing

[Spang]

I think it's what you get after the fact.

[Kelshara]

Been gone a while. Seems like Midnyte has certainly not changed at all hah

[Boogahz]

I think it's what you get after the fact.

slapped?

strangely enough, my brother in law was referring to it as "the shocker" at a family bbq last Sunday.

[Spang]

A stinky knuckle.

[Fairweather Pure]

I think it's what you get after the fact.

slapped?

strangely enough, my brother in law was referring to it as "the shocker" at a family bbq last Sunday.

Maybe if she's not expecting it. If she's with me, she's expecting it.

[Funkmasterr]

Midnyte, you make this thread awesome. Hell, you make this whole board awesome. Sometimes, I just think I'm an average guy with average intelligence, but when I read your posts I get this huge boost of confidence. You cement by beliefs in so many different aspects of life, ranging from politics to complex social issues, by just being yourself. I thank you for not leaving the boards and continuing to post your honest thoughts and opinions.

I vote that this thread should be archeived as an example of textbook Midnyte. Seriously, it brings a smile to my face!

I aims to please massa.

It's even more impressive, if the rumors are actually true, that you manage all this despite being both mentally handicapped and are a direct decendant of voracious inbreeding. You face more prejudice in one day, than a flaming gay, black, Iraqi would face in a lifetime. Just promise me you will never, ever change. I'm using you as the control subject for social and political issues, so please do not let a single ounce of logic or empathy penetrate that brain of yours.

I'm not even saying I agree with you, but I still laughed my ass off reading this post. What would a flaming gay black iraqi be called... Flayblaqi?

And I thought the shocker was right before penetration you go for the other hole, more than likely shocking the girl.... Unless she is super dirty and kinky.. that would kind of take some of the fun out of it.

[Leonaerd]

A stinky knuckle.

Well timed.

[Leonaerd]

And I thought the shocker was right before penetration you go for the other hole, more than likely shocking the girl.... Unless she is super dirty and kinky.. that would kind of take some of the fun out of it.

Regional I think. Here shocker can either mean "two in the..." or it can mean what you described. Ultimately it's telling your buddies that matters, and they don't care which one it was. =P

[Sueven]

Mid, I have a question for you.

A federal judge ruled Wednesday that two provisions of the USA Patriot Act are unconstitutional because they allow search warrants to be issued without a showing of probable cause.

That's the first line from the article. Given that the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution states:

no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause

Why is the ruling incorrect?

Alternately, do you think that we should simply not be following the constitution on this issue? Frankly, the argument for ignoring the constitution is much stronger than the argument that warrants issued without probable cause are constitutionally permissible.

[Sueven]

P.S.

The reason the case was in Portland is because the plaintiff lives in a suburb of Portland. No grand conspiracy there.

[Siji]

Maybe if he's not expecting it. If he's with me, he's expecting it.

Fixed.

Don't you hate when you get poo under your fingernails?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Mid, I have a question for you.

A federal judge ruled Wednesday that two provisions of the USA Patriot Act are unconstitutional because they allow search warrants to be issued without a showing of probable cause.

That's the first line from the article. Given that the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution states:

no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause

Why is the ruling incorrect?

Alternately, do you think that we should simply not be following the constitution on this issue? Frankly, the argument for ignoring the constitution is much stronger than the argument that warrants issued without probable cause are constitutionally permissible.

I don't think the ruling is incorrect. It is obvious that those provisions were against the constitution. The Patriot Act was designed to streamline the process in terrorist cases. It was an exception to the rule.

Your second question seems to be redundant. I agree with the Patriot Act and approve of streamlining the process for law enforcement in cases of terrorism.

[Aabidano]

I don't think the ruling is incorrect. It is obvious that those provisions were against the constitution. The Patriot Act was designed to streamline the process in terrorist cases. It was an exception to the rule.

Your second question seems to be redundant. I agree with the Patriot Act and approve of streamlining the process for law enforcement in cases of terrorism.

You can't have both. Many parts of the patriot act are in blatant violation of the constitution, that's been the argument against it from the start. The "streamlining" parts that are legal were just dressing up for powers the Govt. already had, and have had for 30+ years in many cases. Their inclusion was just greasing the way for the unconstitutional bits.

Of course you've never been able to see that and consistently divert into the "I've nothing to hide!" derail.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I don't think the ruling is incorrect. It is obvious that those provisions were against the constitution. The Patriot Act was designed to streamline the process in terrorist cases. It was an exception to the rule.

Your second question seems to be redundant. I agree with the Patriot Act and approve of streamlining the process for law enforcement in cases of terrorism.

You can't have both. Many parts of the patriot act are in blatant violation of the constitution, that's been the argument against it from the start. The "streamlining" parts that are legal were just dressing up for powers the Govt. already had, and have had for 30+ years in many cases. Their inclusion was just greasing the way for the unconstitutional bits.

Of course you've never been able to see that and consistently divert into the "I've nothing to hide!" derail.

Not at all Aabi. I just share a different opinion than you. I'm okay with this temporary exception being given to law enforcement in cases of terrorism.

[Kelshara]

You might be ok with it because it hasn't impacted you yet. A guy on my car message board had FBI kicking in his door in the middle of the night, weapons drawn and everything. In typical government fashion it was easier for them to push through with the case rather than admitting they were wrong (which they were) and the lawyer fees have pretty much ruined him. Fighting to clear your name against somebody with no evidence but who claims "National Security" as the only reason is pretty much a joke.

No checks and balances is a horrible thing, and once you go away from that principle you let the terrorists win. They don't even need to attack to break us, we break ourselves.

[Aabidano]

Everything they wanted in the patriot act they already had, with judicial oversight. Even after the fact oversight for extreme cases. As predicted, this has been widely abused.

I'm not going to make a list, take a look at what nations in the world allow searches without probable cause and without oversight? I'm pretty sure you don't want to live in any of them.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Everything they wanted in the patriot act they already had, with judicial oversight. Even after the fact oversight for extreme cases. As predicted, this has been widely abused.

I'm not going to make a list, take a look at what nations in the world allow searches without probable cause and without oversight? I'm pretty sure you don't want to live in any of them.

I agree. "Probable cause" is a must. I don't think anyone would advocate searches without probable cause. In the case at hand, they had a 100% fingerprint match. That was probable cause.

[Fairweather Pure]

Everything they wanted in the patriot act they already had, with judicial oversight. Even after the fact oversight for extreme cases. As predicted, this has been widely abused.

I'm not going to make a list, take a look at what nations in the world allow searches without probable cause and without oversight? I'm pretty sure you don't want to live in any of them.

I agree. "Probable cause" is a must. I don't think anyone would advocate searches without probable cause. In the case at hand, they had a 100% fingerprint match. That was probable cause.

Apparrently it was a 100% incorrect fingerprint match.

[Fash]

Everything they wanted in the patriot act they already had, with judicial oversight. Even after the fact oversight for extreme cases. As predicted, this has been widely abused.

I'm not going to make a list, take a look at what nations in the world allow searches without probable cause and without oversight? I'm pretty sure you don't want to live in any of them.

I agree. "Probable cause" is a must. I don't think anyone would advocate searches without probable cause. In the case at hand, they had a 100% fingerprint match. That was probable cause.

Except they didn't get a warrant. There would be no issue if they got a warrant. Incorrect shit happens all the time, but if a judge issued the warrant, there's nothing the innocent party can do... When the rules are skipped over, you invite abuse and subsequent lawsuits.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Everything they wanted in the patriot act they already had, with judicial oversight. Even after the fact oversight for extreme cases. As predicted, this has been widely abused.

I'm not going to make a list, take a look at what nations in the world allow searches without probable cause and without oversight? I'm pretty sure you don't want to live in any of them.

I agree. "Probable cause" is a must. I don't think anyone would advocate searches without probable cause. In the case at hand, they had a 100% fingerprint match. That was probable cause.

Apparrently it was a 100% incorrect fingerprint match.

Hindsight is ......

[Aardor]

Hindsight is ......

The ends justify the means? I like you supporting your argument with cliches, please continue.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Hindsight is ......

The ends justify the means? I like you supporting your argument with cliches, please continue.

It's not just a cliche when it's true. You cannot expect people to do anything more than operate with the evidence they have on hand at the time. Going back 3 years later and saying shit like "but it turned out to be a mis-match!", is a douche bag, mindless thing to say.

[Aslanna]

And when it comes to douchebag mindless things to say Midnyte knows what he's talking about...

I like how he seems to be buying into this administration's agenda of fear. Where they can get mindless citizens to accept whatever they say as long as it's for the "War on Terror". And before you say it's worth it if it saves even one life from a terrorist attack just stop to think about how many died to grant you the rights and protections you now have no problem pissing away.