HDTV's again!

[Knarlz]

My 13 year old Hatachi 50" projection tv finally bit it.

Checking oit the other threads on this topic, I will probebly go for a Samsung HLT5676S 56" UltraSlim 1080p DLP HDTV.
down to about 1550 usd online no tax or shipping. I might get the 61" but need to measure the available space first.

I have a few noob questions that some of you may be able to help with.

what is 1080i vs. 1080p?
I won't have hdtv service from TimeWarner for a week or so after the new set. I assume I can use one of the composit or s video inputs in the mean time?
I won't be getting a blueray or hdcd till they shake out in a year or so but.. what the heck is a Up-Converting 1080p DVD Player?

I might have to go to best buy tommorow and bug the kids (if they know anything) and then buy it on-line elsewhere for 600 less.

[Aslanna]

what is 1080i vs. 1080p?

i = interlaced. p = better!

[Fash]

1080i is basically half as fast in framerate, because it takes 2 frames to make the whole 1080 image. 1080p has a the full image in each frame. Depending on the content, you won't notice the difference between the two of them. Fast sports action will look better on 1080p. There's a lot of debate about the differences and whether you can even tell... I've noticed it, but it's not a huge deal to me. Regardless, you're looking at a 1080p capable set, so you don't have anything to worry about.

It will have all sorts of input connections... you'll have no problem in the meantime, but definitely upgrade to the HDMI HD-DVR box from your cable company and grab the HD package.

Upconverting DVD will attempt to change from standard resolution to a full HD resolution... It looks pretty good and not what you would expect from taking an image in photoshop and blowing it up... I was kinda surprised at how good it looked, but, the source isn't HD, so it's not going to be perfect. It does look better than it would from a standard DVD player though!

That model Samsung is awesome... you will love it.

[Aardor]

what is 1080i vs. 1080p?

i = interlaced. p = better!

i = interlaced, if you need more info on that check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlaced
p = progressive, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_scan

Now, the simple answer is yes, 1080p is better than 1080i. However, the difference currently is basically non-existent due to various reasons.

The reason 1080p is better is because it allows for more fps than 1080i....1080i caps out at 30 fps (1080i30), whereas 1080p caps out at 60fps (1080p60, it actually might be higher than 60, I forget). However 1080i30 and 1080p30 are pretty much indistinguishable if your interlacer is any good at all (and it should be on any HDTV). Another thing is 1080p movies: the vast majority (read: i've never heard of any other case) of movies are taped at 24hz. This means they will be displayed at 1080i24 and 1080p24, of which you will not be able to tell the difference.

So, the only reason 1080p matters is for video games or a video source that is 1080 and above 30 fps. Both the PS3 and the 360 claim to be able to produce 1080p, but last time i checked (a month ago) all of the games which actually claimed to have 1080p support looked exactly the same in 1080i (so they either lied to you or are not providing enough fps).

Also, there is currently not a single station in the US which broadcasts a 1080p signal, and it's about a 50/50 split between 720p and 1080i now.

So currently, in my opinion, 1080p is nothing more than an overused buzz word, as well as a way to future-proof your television.

[Sylvus]

Anyone care to provide an update on the 1080i vs. 1080p "debate"?

One year later, are there a lot more things taking advantage of 1080p?

[Winnow]

Anyone care to provide an update on the 1080i vs. 1080p "debate"?

One year later, are there a lot more things taking advantage of 1080p?

1080P is the one you should get simply because that's what you'll want if you use it as a PC monitor or for a 360/PS3.

120hz refresh is what you want to look for and I'd guess that all 120hz LCDs will be 1080p anyway.

i = refresh every other line each pass
p = refresh entire screen each pass

p = better for sports, live action stuff
i = works as good as p if you're looking at a static image

Big thing with LCDs is motion blur. P and 120hz help with that (because they allow for anti motion blur tech to be in place like the Samsungs have)

[laneela]

From my understanding, a 1080p is pointless for anything smaller than a 40" though so unless you're getting a behemoth, save yourself the clams and send them my way.

[Sylvus]

Whose eyes are even good enough to see a 40" television? We're talking 52", at least.

[laneela]

Whatever. Send me money anyway.

[Aslanna]

Anyone care to provide an update on the 1080i vs. 1080p "debate"?

One year later, are there a lot more things taking advantage of 1080p?

p will always be better. Spend the extra dollars. The economy needs it!

[Fairweather Pure]

Aslanna likes p.

[Knarlz]

A belated thanks for the info.
I did buy the Samsung HLT5676S 56" UltraSlim 1080p DLP HDTV online via Amazon for $600 less than at Best Buy. The only downside was the free shipping took about 10 days.

I am quite happy with the set for that price.

I am starting to see claims for broadcasting in 1080p *may not be available in all areas*

Locally, Time Warner runs ads all the time touting their 1080p and HD on demand however they don't have either in my area inspite of advertising them for over a year.

Their HD content is pethetic here. 20 channels with less than 50% of the content in HD. One of those channels has never had a single HD item. 2,4,7- 25% HD, only national prime time. 4 movie channels, hbo etc, 100% HD but no on demand in HD. PBS - HD, 2 espns 50% HD, about 10 other channels so lame that after a year, I don't even recall what they are (0-50% HD content)

I wanted to see "Planet Earth" in HD but no discovery channel in HD, Time Warner totally blows in my area. My daughter in the thriving metropolus of Akron Ohio, pays 15% less for 25% more content (including HD on demand) for her Time Warner service.

[cadalano]

i just bought a 60 inch DLP from mitsubishi. the 1080p is pretty slick on the XBox which is the primary reason i got the thing anyway. basically its just a gigantic computer monitor in terms of quality. i don't notice the framerate issues until i'm watching HD channels (which are interlaced) and there is a lot of fast movement, like this weekend watching football if the camera is moving a lot I'll start to notice a "tearing" effect. i'd say make sure you get progressive if you want top quality from digital sources (computer/gaming consoles/blu-ray, as opposed to non-digital cable broadcast). also keep in mind that your non-digital broadcasts will probably be converted to digital at some point in the future, depending on your supplier.

[Knarlz]

well, one day after my latest rant about Time Warner, they added 18 HD channels.
discovery, history, food, travel, home and garden, A&E and a 3rd ESPN. Not to bad except 4 of the new channels need additional fees to see. This is inspite of me previously having every single option enabled and payed for. ( expensive as all get out but the wife wanted all the movie channels )
The prior mentioned channels are included in my current package but the Lifetime movie channel is not ( all chick flicks all the time! )

This is a dirrect respose to them losing customers in my area to the 135 channel HD satalite dish. The dish if offering 4 free months if you dump cable, with no contract, or install charge or equiptment rental fees and then $29 a month.

Time Warner has countered with with adding 18 HD channels ( $5 a month gets you about 32 now) but no HD on demand yet and for new suscribers $15 a month ( but $8 equiptment ) for basic cable with 3 free HD channels, no movies! for 6 months, then they do what cable companies do best, jack it up.

They still want an additional $10 /month to upgrade my 3 meg internet up to a whopping 5 meg. Since I don't download much I countered with reducing it to 1 meg and paying $10 less but they wouldn't bite.

[Sylvos]

I just bought a Samsung 52" LCD 120mhz TV (4 HDMI ports yesh!)
You want the 1080p, they won that war.
Go with Samsung, they are bitchin.
Trust me

[Aardor]

Anyone care to provide an update on the 1080i vs. 1080p "debate"?

One year later, are there a lot more things taking advantage of 1080p?

Everything I said here in my quoted posted below still applies:

what is 1080i vs. 1080p?

i = interlaced. p = better!

i = interlaced, if you need more info on that check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlaced
p = progressive, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_scan

Now, the simple answer is yes, 1080p is better than 1080i. However, the difference currently is basically non-existent due to various reasons.

The reason 1080p is better is because it allows for more fps than 1080i....1080i caps out at 30 fps (1080i30), whereas 1080p caps out at 60fps (1080p60, it actually might be higher than 60, I forget). However 1080i30 and 1080p30 are pretty much indistinguishable if your interlacer is any good at all (and it should be on any HDTV). Another thing is 1080p movies: the vast majority (read: i've never heard of any other case) of movies are taped at 24hz. This means they will be displayed at 1080i24 and 1080p24, of which you will not be able to tell the difference.

So, the only reason 1080p matters is for video games or a video source that is 1080 and above 30 fps. Both the PS3 and the 360 claim to be able to produce 1080p, but last time i checked (a month ago) all of the games which actually claimed to have 1080p support looked exactly the same in 1080i (so they either lied to you or are not providing enough fps).

Also, there is currently not a single station in the US which broadcasts a 1080p signal, and it's about a 50/50 split between 720p and 1080i now.

So currently, in my opinion, 1080p is nothing more than an overused buzz word, as well as a way to future-proof your television.

For the love of god, please ignore Winnow's comments due the posts misinformation. He is right, that given the choice, you would want a 720p signal over a 1080i signal for live action broadcasts. However, 1080p was mostly being discussed and since no one broadcasts in 1080p, the point is useless. Also, most things are taped in 1080i these days, since 1080i has a public perception of being better than 720p, and the fact that 720p requires more bandwidth to send than 1080i. If your signal is actually in 720p, there is a good chance it was taped with an older HD camera, and you are going to see a bunch of compression artifacts because of this, causing you to get a better picture from 1080i.

There is not a single content provider which sends a signal in 1080p. If they claim to, they are lying. As of July, it was predicted by cable companies that 1080p would not be use for 8-12 years, because of the lack of content in 1080p (everything is taped at 24 hz, as explained above, that limits you to 24fps, and at 24fps 1080i == 1080p), and the serious amount of bandwidth increase a 1080p signal needs over a 1080i.

An important note: If you set your cable/satellite receiver to force a 1080p output, you are actually degrading the quality of the picture than if you had it do a 1080i or 720p signal (or had it auto select if available). If your force 1080p output, it's going to take the native signal (be it 1080i or 720p or whatever) and try to convert it to 1080p. Due to the up-conversion, there are going to be distortions in your picture, and there will be no improvements to the picture (Garbage in, Garbage out).

So, in conclusion, 1080p is a completely useless feature for most users. Anything pre-recorded (movies, tv shows) is currently taped at 24hz, making 1080p useless since there is no visible different between 1080p24 and 1080i24. Live action is not taped/broadcast in 1080p yet, and there is no big move to make this happen soon (I would just like them to get all important games in HD first). No video game systems to this date actually output a native 1080p signal (it's upconverted, but with a much better upconverting processor than the one in a cable/satellite box), and they probably will not this generation (despite what both Microsoft and Sony say, but at least Sony has games natively in 1080i). There is still the possibility of getting a real 1080p signal to a TV by using a computer, but I was unable to find a conclusive answer if this was possible with current video cards/drivers in the short time I looked.

If you really want to be a prick about HD picture quality, you should look into wobulation, and look at the price of LCD/DLP tvs without wobulation.

[Winnow]

For the love of god, please ignore Winnow's comments due the posts misinformation. He is right, that given the choice, you would want a 720p signal over a 1080i signal for live action broadcasts. However, 1080p was mostly being discussed and since no one broadcasts in 1080p, the point is useless. Also, most things are taped in 1080i these days, since 1080i has a public perception of being better than 720p, and the fact that 720p requires more bandwidth to send than 1080i. If your signal is actually in 720p, there is a good chance it was taped with an older HD camera, and you are going to see a bunch of compression artifacts because of this, causing you to get a better picture from 1080i.

You sound like some rookie Best Buy salesman.

Um, everyone knows 1080i is what you're going to get via broadcast TV. Upscaling to 1080p and using 1080p with the PS3, 360 and your PC makes a difference.

30fps and 60fps has nothing to do with 1080 i or p. Both are capable of 60fps. Jesus.

Don't be trying to move in on my high tech turf. Stick to Philly sports.

For the love of God, either go to Best Buy or just listen to the same shit straight from Aardor.


----

and if I really wanted to be a prick, maybe search for wobulation on this forum:

http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/view ... 25&t=18822

[Canelek]

Lol. Turf wars yo!



edit: I'll add my vote for Samsung. My 42" Plasma kicks ass at 720P.

[Winnow]

Lol. Turf wars yo!

Well I wouldn't try to get all "for the love of god" on you if you wrote a response about trees or fishing! That's your turf!

[Fash]

If I could enter into a civil union with my Samsung HDTV, I would.

[cadalano]

both are capable of 60fps but anything coming in as 1080i is unlikely to be 60fps from the source.. a framerate where the differences between interlaced and progressive are significant as opposed to 30 fps. aardor never said that the format was limited to it.

between this and warhammer lately- i'd say you're the one that needs to stick to your "turf" of feigned expertise on trivial shit that no one even remotely cares about enough to call you out on.

[Canelek]

Lol. Turf wars yo!

Well I wouldn't try to get all "for the love of god" on you if you wrote a response about trees or fishing! That's your turf!

I also claim small firearms, DBMS and software developer bitchslappin'.

[Winnow]

between this and warhammer lately- i'd say you're the one that needs to stick to your "turf" of feigned expertise on trivial shit that no one even remotely cares about enough to call you out on.

I'm still right on my point in Warhammer. Sorceress is the #1 class for AOE. BW's go Immolation.

And as I mentioned above, making sure your new LCD is 120hz, is more important than i or p. Motion blur is the biggest issue with LCDs.

when you see a scene in a movie panning from side to side...you see it "judder" with the 60hz screens. It's a lot smoother with the 120hz TVs.

The primary goal of 120Hz displays is to eliminate judder when displaying film originating material (24fps) especially noticable on slow horizontal pans.

With 60 HZ displays such material is shown for different length of time: every odd frame - twice, every even frame - 3 times (12*2+12*3=60). It's called 3-2 pulldown.

A 120HZ display shows every frame 5 times (5*24=120), hence, no judder.

Samsungs take advantage of 120hz with Auto Motion plus

Auto Motion Plus is a function of the TV set that increases the frame rate to 120hz. But it's not just simple frame-rate conversion, which usually involves simple multiplication of frames. Auto Motion Plus interpolates new frames in between existing frames. The idea is to eliminate judder, but it makes everything look overly smooth and video-ish.

It's best used for video games and anything fast moving. Turning it off for films is the better option if you have good source material.

[Aardor]

For the love of god, please ignore Winnow's comments due the posts misinformation. He is right, that given the choice, you would want a 720p signal over a 1080i signal for live action broadcasts. However, 1080p was mostly being discussed and since no one broadcasts in 1080p, the point is useless. Also, most things are taped in 1080i these days, since 1080i has a public perception of being better than 720p, and the fact that 720p requires more bandwidth to send than 1080i. If your signal is actually in 720p, there is a good chance it was taped with an older HD camera, and you are going to see a bunch of compression artifacts because of this, causing you to get a better picture from 1080i.

You sound like some rookie Best Buy salesman.

Um, everyone knows 1080i is what you're going to get via broadcast TV. Upscaling to 1080p and using 1080p with the PS3, 360 and your PC makes a difference.

30fps and 60fps has nothing to do with 1080 i or p. Both are capable of 60fps. Jesus.

Don't be trying to move in on my high tech turf. Stick to Philly sports.

For the love of God, either go to Best Buy or just listen to the same shit straight from Aardor.


----

and if I really wanted to be a prick, maybe search for wobulation on this forum:

http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/view ... 25&t=18822

As explained by someone below, i didn't say that 1080i couldn't do the higher FPS, it is jsut that after 30 fps, you start to see the difference between I and P. Yes, upscaling on the ps3, 360, and PC (not that i said anything about the PC other than that i did not know) makes a difference, there is just an argument whether the difference is worth it (i.e. the better quality for the distortion caused by the upscaling). Also, the upconverting being a problem was only mentioned on cable/satellite boxes. It really sucks there because the chip doing it is not very good (compared ot the one in the ps3 and 360, or your pc's cpu/gpu).

Anyone at best buy is going to try to sell you 1080p because it's a great way to sell someone a more expensive TV, and all they want to do is make money. If a Best Buy employee knew any of this stuff, or was close to how well informed about HDTVs as I am, I would be very very impressed.

And as for your "Turf," you post incorrect or opinionated information all the time. I am better informed about HDTVs than you, so get the fuck off my turf. And yes, I know that wobulation was mentioned on these forums before, I was just using it to portray the craziness of the HDTV market. What about all the other stuff I mentioned, oh great one? Was that incorrect too, or just too "best buy employee who is way more informed than you," for you to address?

I am not saying "don't buy 1080p" I was just pointing out that 1080p is pretty useless on most TVs. When I bought a TV, and made sure it had 1080p, and would not buy one that did not feature it (given the choice, I would have one of those 90" Samsung DLPs without wobulation that cost $25k).

[Winnow]

hoo boy!

You must be a supervisor at one of the stores!

You can track down my last plasma/lcd hunting thread if you want...or the Dell 2405 thread from 2005. No one week sales training course can substitute years of surfing the net from work!

When it came down to the actual purchase, even after all of the research, the final, and lengthy decision process came from viewing multiple displays, multiple times, in different settings. After that, it was easy to pick the new Samsung 650 or 750 line of LCDs. If others don't have time to research, those are the TVs you should buy (until the inevitable new lines come out again for next season). As with most products, there are certain sweet spots in price/performance. The Samsung 650/750s are on the higher end, but not extreme high end. You won't get much better spending a bunch more, but you can get a lot worse spending less.

And of course, prices drop. the 2K TV I bought is 1.5K four months later making it an even better time to buy considering the time of year with new models right around the corner.

[Aardor]

hoo boy!

You must be a supervisor at one of the stores!

You can track down my last plasma/lcd hunting thread if you want...or the Dell 2405 thread from 2005. No one week sales training course can substitute years of surfing the net from work!

When it came down to the actual purchase, even after all of the research, the final, and lengthy decision process came from viewing multiple displays, multiple times, in different settings. After that, it was easy to pick the new Samsung 650 or 750 line of LCDs. If others don't have time to research, those are the TVs you should buy (until the inevitable new lines come out again for next season). As with most products, there are certain sweet spots in price/performance. The Samsung 650/750s are on the higher end, but not extreme high end. You won't get much better spending a bunch more, but you can get a lot worse spending less.

And of course, prices drop. the 2K TV I bought is 1.5K four months later making it an even better time to buy considering the time of year with new models right around the corner.

Don't you do Q/A for some company? and If not, what do you do?