Washington not returning to Grey's Anatomy

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » June 13, 2007, 5:11 pm

I was curious as to what you all thought about this. Isaiah Washington won't be returning to Grey's Anatomy, in a move most people think is related to his use of the word "fag" against T.R. Knight. Here's the article I found:

http://tv.yahoo.com/isaiah-washington/c ... 619609__ER

Was it a valid response to sexism? Was it overreacting?

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » June 13, 2007, 5:31 pm

He did it twice. The first time he was warned and had to take, like, a sensitivity class or some shit. Then he comes right back calling him a faggot again. He deserves everything he gets. If it ended his career, I would'nt really care.

Here's an always funny Ann Coulter quote that's on topic:

Coulter drew criticism for statements she made at the 2007 Conservative Political Action Conference, where she used the term "faggot" in reference to presidential candidate John Edwards in an allusion to Grey's Anatomy star Isaiah Washington's use of the word and his subsequent counseling:

"I was going to have a few comments on the other Democratic presidential candidate, John Edwards, but it turns out that you have to go into rehab if you use the word 'faggot,' so I'm - so, kind of at an impasse, can't really talk about Edwards, so I think I'll just conclude here and take your questions."

The audience responded in laughter but Edwards responded on his website by characterizing Coulter's words as "un-American and indefensible" and asking readers to help him "raise $100,000 in 'Coulter Cash' this week to keep this campaign charging ahead and fight back against the politics of bigotry."Coulter's words also drew the condemnation from many prominent Republicans and Democrats alike, as well as groups such as the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD).Coulter responded in an e-mail to the New York Times: "C’mon, it was a joke. I would never insult gays by suggesting that they are like John Edwards. That would be mean." She also posted a response on her website: "I'm so ashamed, I can't stop laughing!"

On March 5, 2007, Coulter appeared on FOX News's Hannity and Colmes and said that her use of the word "faggot" was a "taunt" and further expounded that [the word] "faggot isn't offensive to gays; it has nothing to do with gays." In regards to the criticisms from her own party, Coulter responded with "Apparently our top three Republican nominees aren't that smart. And by the way, if they're going to start apologizing for everything I say, they better keep that statement handy cause there's going to be a lot more in the next year."

In response to this issue, three advertisers (Verizon, Sallie Mae, and Netbank) pulled their advertisements from Coulter's website, and eight newspapers dropped Coulter's column, including The Times in Louisiana, The Oakland Press in Michigan, The Mountain Press of Sevierville, Tennessee, and the New Era in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

Responding to the controversy, Coulter has said:

Just for the record, I've never attempted to revise, or extend, nor have I apologized and the attempts to silence me have made me even more money…Those newspapers pay me about 25 cents per month, but I picked up a LOT of speeches…Attempts to censor me have really backfired.

Bill O'Reilly stated that Coulter "got hammered" for her comments on Edwards. Coulter replied that she gets hammered every six months and it merely increases her book sales.

Funny, I thought she would choose to support a faggot over a nigger, but I guess gays lost the conservative coin toss on that one. I can't believe there are so many people that would actually pay to hear her hate mongering.

Gays are the new blacks. It's funny to see blacks calling people fags and voting republican. I guess those are some of the signs that racisim of old is over, and now it's a free for all!

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 13, 2007, 5:32 pm

I would think it was an overreaction if he had only done it once, but I believe there were other issues with him on, and off, the set. A fist fight comes to mind for one of them. The guy appears to have some issues to work on.

Post by **Sylvus** » June 13, 2007, 6:09 pm

I don't even really get why this (him being fired) is news, or why he's so outraged. From what I've heard, there was an incident where he choked someone he worked with (I don't recall if it was related to these comments) as well as him calling a coworker a fag on at least 2 occasions that made the press. One of them was at like a Golden Globes acceptance speech or something like that, look it up.

If I did anything like that, I'd be fired so fast. It sounds like ABC thought about what they wanted to do for 6 months, that's 6 months later than most of the rest of the world would have been shitcanned for the same actions.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » June 13, 2007, 8:02 pm

Here's what I think. I think I'm pretty tired about hearing about Grey's Anatomy! I tried watching it, but it was such over-dramatic crap that I just couldn't do it. They were performing surgery on some guy with a bomb in him or something. What?! Jesus christ, X-Files had more reasonable storylines

Kwonryu DragonFist · Post by **Kwonryu DragonFist** » June 13, 2007, 9:08 pm

TJ Knight is a fag though, isn't he?

He looks faggy at least.

I can understand why someone would make the assumption.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » June 13, 2007, 10:02 pm

Yes Kwon, TR Knight is a homosexual. He was not publicly a homosexual until after the Isiah Washington incident.

This is not a gay rights issues. This is a bad employee incident. Washington was disruptive to the work environment, including a fight with a fellow cast member! He wasn't fired because the gay mafia pulled some strings, or because it was the PC thing to do. He was fired cause he was a fucking dick and noone on the show wanted to work with him. All the news stories keep painting over that though, trying to make it into some kind of race vs. sexual preferrence debate.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » June 13, 2007, 11:43 pm

I agree Truant. He sounded like a dick on the set, and he should have been canned right away. I think he hit Patrick Dempsey at one point, that might be the choking/fist fight you were talking about.
I don't watch Grey's, but it was hard not to follow this story as it unfolded.

Kwonryu DragonFist · Post by **Kwonryu DragonFist** » June 14, 2007, 2:57 am

Oh i see, sounds like Isaiah was a real troublemaker on the set then?

Anyone have more background on the Dempsey-fight?

noel · Post by **noel** » June 14, 2007, 12:19 pm

I haven't really followed the story, but if I recall: At the Golden Globes, he said in a joking tone, "I didn't call T.R. a fag" or something like that. Which just pissed people off more...

Truant · Post by **Truant** » June 14, 2007, 1:37 pm

Kwonryu DragonFist wrote:Oh i see, sounds like Isaiah was a real troublemaker on the set then?

Anyone have more background on the Dempsey-fight?

There's not a whole lot of story, because it was behind closed doors. After the first incident where Washington called Knight a faggot on set, Dempsey confronted Washington, and apparently they fought in the trailer before it was all said and done. I can't remember anymore if there was another incident or not.

a_guide · Post by **a_guide** » June 14, 2007, 1:40 pm

On March 5, 2007, Coulter appeared on FOX News's Hannity and Colmes and said that her use of the word "faggot" was a "taunt" and further expounded that [the word] "faggot isn't offensive to gays; it has nothing to do with gays."

All of my gay friends have at one point been referred to in a negative fashion as faggots, and they were absolutely offended. That woman is so ignorant it makes my head want to explode.
DIE DIE DIE!

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 14, 2007, 2:48 pm

a_guide wrote:
On March 5, 2007, Coulter appeared on FOX News's Hannity and Colmes and said that her use of the word "faggot" was a "taunt" and further expounded that [the word] "faggot isn't offensive to gays; it has nothing to do with gays."
All of my gay friends have at one point been referred to in a negative fashion as faggots, and they were absolutely offended. That woman is so ignorant it makes my head want to explode.
DIE DIE DIE!

to me, it is the same as referring to something as being "gay."

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » June 14, 2007, 5:01 pm

I'm gonna keep my mouth shut, however - I will say that one of my good friends that is a lesbian calls stuff "gay" more than anyone I know.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » June 14, 2007, 5:12 pm

I think the words are less of a problem than getting offended by them is.

Bottom line is if you're a guy and you like cock, you're a faggot and a homo... and you're gay. There's no real negativity in it, just fact.

I'm italian and I could care less if someone calls me one of the fifteen slurs against italians. People have done it, hoping it would bother me but they may as well just call me Fred or something else completely unrelated because I don't give a flying shit about the connotation of those words.

Being able to take in those comments and not get offended changes everything.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 14, 2007, 5:31 pm

Fash wrote:I think the words are less of a problem than getting offended by them is.

Bottom line is if you're a guy and you like cock, you're a faggot and a homo... and you're gay. There's no real negativity in it, just fact.

I'm italian and I could care less if someone calls me one of the fifteen slurs against italians. People have done it, hoping it would bother me but they may as well just call me Fred or something else completely unrelated because I don't give a flying shit about the connotation of those words.

Being able to take in those comments and not get offended changes everything.

The difference is in how the terms are used. If you use "faggot" to describe a person in a negative way, how the fuck is it not negative? If you say something is "gay" in a "that's fucked up" manner, how is that not negative?

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » June 14, 2007, 6:00 pm

Fash wrote:I think the words are less of a problem than getting offended by them is.

Bottom line is if you're a guy and you like cock, you're a faggot and a homo... and you're gay. There's no real negativity in it, just fact.

I'm italian and I could care less if someone calls me one of the fifteen slurs against italians. People have done it, hoping it would bother me but they may as well just call me Fred or something else completely unrelated because I don't give a flying shit about the connotation of those words.

Being able to take in those comments and not get offended changes everything.

I just wanted to quote one of the stupidest things I have ever read.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 15, 2007, 12:40 am

I think over sensitive cunt wads are FAGGOTS!

Stop being offended by words! Words lose their power the less you get offended by them. I wonder if that's why black folk use nigger so much in their everyday ghetto speak?

Kwonryu DragonFist · Post by **Kwonryu DragonFist** » June 15, 2007, 1:39 am

Stop faggoting up this thread!

So much faggotry on VV these days...

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » June 15, 2007, 8:35 am

Fash wrote:Being able to take in those comments and not get offended changes everything.

Having the LUXURY of not being offended by words because you're not a target of systemic oppression changes everything.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » June 15, 2007, 9:35 am

Sueven wrote:
Fash wrote:Being able to take in those comments and not get offended changes everything.
Having the LUXURY of not being offended by words because you're not a target of systemic oppression changes everything.

I'm a target of systemic oppression due to my use of an illegal substance, marijuana... but I'm proud of it.

Be a proud faggot, and the luxury is yours.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 15, 2007, 10:04 am

Fash wrote:
Sueven wrote:
Fash wrote:Being able to take in those comments and not get offended changes everything.
Having the LUXURY of not being offended by words because you're not a target of systemic oppression changes everything.
I'm a target of systemic oppression due to my use of an illegal substance, marijuana... but I'm proud of it.

Be a proud faggot, and the luxury is yours.

Fucking pot head! You must be one o them queers.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » June 15, 2007, 2:12 pm

Someone called me Fred once and I cried.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » June 15, 2007, 4:34 pm

Fash wrote:I think the words are less of a problem than getting offended by them is.
...
Being able to take in those comments and not get offended changes everything.

I completely agree (with the two quoted sentences). People (especially US citizens) are too thin skinned these days. Boo fucking hoo someone called you a dirty word. I mean seriously, get over it. Giving someone the power to hurt you with words only speaks to your own weaknesses. If you've got enough confidence in yourself, it wouldn't matter what anyone said to or about you.

I'm curious.. how do you think it would have played out in the news and tabloids if Knight turned around and said, "fuck you nigger" ? Who would have been the one chastised the most? I think Knight would have, myself.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » June 15, 2007, 6:47 pm

The idea that words only have power if you choose to allow them to have power is simply not true.

You can disagree all you want, and you can cite the fact that you've been called slurs before. The fact is that these PARTICULAR words might not have inherent power, because they are directed at someone in a position of privilege. There are a number of categories which one can fall in which leads to privilege in America: White, Male, Straight, Educated, Wealthy, Urban, Tall, Fit, Christian or Christian-looking-unbeliever, etc etc etc. If you are rich, and someone calls you a rich fuck, you have the luxury of choosing not to be hurt, because you being rich is an empowering thing rather than a disempowering thing. Same goes for whiteness, italianness, etc.

On the other hand, if you are gay, and someone calls you a faggot, that can hurt you whether or not you choose to "allow" it to do so. There are a number of straightforwardly harmful consequences that can flow from the insult, depending on context, some of which (such as being kicked out of the military, shunned by a social group, etc) are very straightforward.

Have you ever lost friends because someone called you a wop? I doubt it. But you can bet your ass that many gay people have lost friends because they're gay. An insult based on someone's nature directed by a privileged person to an unprivileged person is simply NOT ANALOGOUS to the reverse. It might be easy for you to laugh off being called a wop, while being called a faggot might make a gay person feel deeply threatened-- not offended, but threatened.

I do somewhat agree with you, Fash, that weed smokers are an oppressed group. However, the oppression is only serious when combined with some other nexus of oppression (say, being young and black). There are not an awful lot of rich, white, educated kids who get into serious trouble for smoking weed. And even beyond this, smoking weed is inherently different than being gay or black or female or whatever in that it is, at least to some extent, something you choose rather than something about who you are.

I know that this post will likely utterly fail to convince you of anything, and I'll probably be accused of political-correct-ness and bleeding-heart-ness and so on. That's OK. It would be impossible for me to remove ignorance in a few hundreds words. All I would say is that before you feel all reinforced in your worldview, I hope that you actually take some time to seriously consider what the other side experiences on this one. There are good books discussing these sorts of issues, I urge you to read one of them and take it seriously before engraving your attitude in stone.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 15, 2007, 9:59 pm

Sueven wrote:, while being called a faggot might make a gay person feel deeply threatened-- not offended, but threatened.

.

How so? You aren't backing up your own point. Being a fag and being called a fag, should not threaten any one. Gay bashing was a rare occurence. It does not equivelate to blacks and slavery. Even slavery is a long enough time ago for this we can say nigger but you can't bullshit. It's a word. Stop it already.

Kwonryu DragonFist · Post by **Kwonryu DragonFist** » June 15, 2007, 11:59 pm

If he wasn't a fag and Isaiah kept callin' him a fag on the set, i could understand the outburst and the roidrage.

Isaiah: Sup Fag!
TJ: Who you callin' a fag mofo?
...
Fisticuffs ensues

Why did he fight Dempsey though? Did he call him a Bad Irish Actor?

EDIT: Found it!

http://www.people.com/people/article/0, ... 64,00.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15227131/

Who would win?

Patrick weighs in at 165 pounds; he’s 5-foot-10; sports “Dreamy” blue eyes and just turned 40.

Isaiah has 30 pounds on Patrick, a 2-inch height advantage and is 43.

Reportedly, Isaiah grabbed Patrick by the throat after an argument broke out over cast members showing up late for work.

According to one source, Isaiah was “in Patrick’s face” and said some “disgusting things.”

Isaiah’s rep hasn’t denied the incident and released the following statement to Access Hollywood:

“Differences are inevitable. They were aired, resolved, and everyone has moved on.”

Isaiah is even apparently able to joke about the incident now, telling People magazine he’d never been that close to Dr. McDreamy before and “he has really pretty blue eyes.”

LOL!

Patrick actually beat out Isaiah for the role of Dr. Derek Shepherd, and in the process has become the unofficial face (and of course, hair) of “Grey’s Anatomy.”

“It was between you and Patrick Dempsey as Dr. McDreamy?” Access Hollywood’s Billy Bush asked Isaiah in a recent interview.

“We were going against each other,” Washington confirmed. “The network chose him. They wanted him as Dr. Shepherd.”

This may be the main antagonist.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 16, 2007, 12:14 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:How so? You aren't backing up your own point. Being a fag and being called a fag, should not threaten any one. Gay bashing was a rare occurence. It does not equivelate to blacks and slavery. Even slavery is a long enough time ago for this we can say nigger but you can't bullshit. It's a word. Stop it already.

are you really this clueless?

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » June 18, 2007, 1:57 pm

Boogahz wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:How so? You aren't backing up your own point. Being a fag and being called a fag, should not threaten any one. Gay bashing was a rare occurence. It does not equivelate to blacks and slavery. Even slavery is a long enough time ago for this we can say nigger but you can't bullshit. It's a word. Stop it already.

are you really this clueless?

You have to ask this question? Midnyte just really wants to say the word "nigger" in public without getting his ass beat.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » June 18, 2007, 2:39 pm

Sueven wrote:The idea that words only have power if you choose to allow them to have power is simply not true.

You can disagree all you want, and you can cite the fact that you've been called slurs before. The fact is that these PARTICULAR words might not have inherent power, because they are directed at someone in a position of privilege. There are a number of categories which one can fall in which leads to privilege in America: White, Male, Straight, Educated, Wealthy, Urban, Tall, Fit, Christian or Christian-looking-unbeliever, etc etc etc. If you are rich, and someone calls you a rich fuck, you have the luxury of choosing not to be hurt, because you being rich is an empowering thing rather than a disempowering thing. Same goes for whiteness, italianness, etc.

On the other hand, if you are gay, and someone calls you a faggot, that can hurt you whether or not you choose to "allow" it to do so. There are a number of straightforwardly harmful consequences that can flow from the insult, depending on context, some of which (such as being kicked out of the military, shunned by a social group, etc) are very straightforward.

Have you ever lost friends because someone called you a wop? I doubt it. But you can bet your ass that many gay people have lost friends because they're gay. An insult based on someone's nature directed by a privileged person to an unprivileged person is simply NOT ANALOGOUS to the reverse. It might be easy for you to laugh off being called a wop, while being called a faggot might make a gay person feel deeply threatened-- not offended, but threatened.

I do somewhat agree with you, Fash, that weed smokers are an oppressed group. However, the oppression is only serious when combined with some other nexus of oppression (say, being young and black). There are not an awful lot of rich, white, educated kids who get into serious trouble for smoking weed. And even beyond this, smoking weed is inherently different than being gay or black or female or whatever in that it is, at least to some extent, something you choose rather than something about who you are.

I know that this post will likely utterly fail to convince you of anything, and I'll probably be accused of political-correct-ness and bleeding-heart-ness and so on. That's OK. It would be impossible for me to remove ignorance in a few hundreds words. All I would say is that before you feel all reinforced in your worldview, I hope that you actually take some time to seriously consider what the other side experiences on this one. There are good books discussing these sorts of issues, I urge you to read one of them and take it seriously before engraving your attitude in stone.

Hi Sueven and Thanks for providing such an eloquent response to my thoughts. I do understand where you're going with it and I agree.... It's not as simple as I described nor should it be. I'm not engraved in my beliefs on this as I started my original post out with "I think".

I'm very interested in your comments about privileged and unprivileged... even drawing this distinction concerns me. I don't really know how to respond at this point even though I've had days to think about it... So I'll just say you're right.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » June 18, 2007, 11:05 pm

Sueven wrote:The idea that words only have power if you choose to allow them to have power is simply not true.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with your opinion.

Sueven wrote:Have you ever lost friends because someone called you a wop? I doubt it. But you can bet your ass that many gay people have lost friends because they're gay.

If you hide something about yourself and then lose friends over what you've been hiding, it's your own damn fault. This goes back to what I said about being confident about yourself. If you're too afraid to be yourself, don't expect people to stick around when they find out you've been hiding something from them.

People for the most part these days, are idiots. Be yourself and keep friends with those that accept you for who you are. If you act like someone else, expect to lose friends when you turn into someone else. And don't go whining about "but I'm still the same person" crap.

Be yourself, and be proud of it - for better or worse.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » June 19, 2007, 8:30 am

Thats probably the dumbest thing I ever read. People lost friends because they weren't told they were gay? Are you really this fucking serious? My brother in law didn't know he was gay until he hit 16-17 years old. When he announced it, he lost over half his friends...not because he was pretending to be someone else, but because he is gay.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 19, 2007, 10:16 am

Lynks wrote:Thats probably the dumbest thing I ever read. People lost friends because they weren't told they were gay? Are you really this fucking serious? My brother in law didn't know he was gay until he hit 16-17 years old. When he announced it, he lost over half his friends...not because he was pretending to be someone else, but because he is gay.

Siji is just in denial about friends he will no longer hang out with. It's not because they're gay though!

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 19, 2007, 1:39 pm

Lynks wrote:Thats probably the dumbest thing I ever read. People lost friends because they weren't told they were gay? Are you really this fucking serious? My brother in law didn't know he was gay until he hit 16-17 years old. When he announced it, he lost over half his friends...not because he was pretending to be someone else, but because he is gay.

What's wrong with that? Maybe they prefer not to hang out with fags? /shrug

If I found out a friend of mine has been snorting coke for the past 10 years I knew him, I would no longer wish to hang out with him at all. In fact, this just happened to me two weks ago. People can choose their friends and who they hang out with. Why do you feel it just to deny people their freedoms?

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » June 19, 2007, 1:48 pm

Thats nice. Too bad thats not what people are talking about you fucking retard. edit* This is regarding "People can choose their friends and who they hang out with"

Its about 2 things. The power of words and the difference between someone being called a pothead and another being called a faggot.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 19, 2007, 2:02 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Lynks wrote:Thats probably the dumbest thing I ever read. People lost friends because they weren't told they were gay? Are you really this fucking serious? My brother in law didn't know he was gay until he hit 16-17 years old. When he announced it, he lost over half his friends...not because he was pretending to be someone else, but because he is gay.
What's wrong with that? Maybe they prefer not to hang out with fags? /shrug

If I found out a friend of mine has been snorting coke for the past 10 years I knew him, I would no longer wish to hang out with him at all. In fact, this just happened to me two weks ago. People can choose their friends and who they hang out with. Why do you feel it just to deny people their freedoms?

So, you agree with Lynks? The whole point was that they would lose friends because they were gay, not because they had hidden something. You would stop hanging out with your friend because he did coke, not because he didn't share his stash sooner.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » June 19, 2007, 2:45 pm

friends are not a right, they're a privilege. heh heh.

I've dropped friends for a lot less, like this couple who seemed to demand my attention more than I was willing to give. Every time I saw them it wasn't "hey its great to see you whats new?" it was "hey stranger, where the hell have you been? what, you don't like us anymore?".... needy fuckers... are they "unprivileged" because they're needy and I'm "privileged" because I'm independent? We can take this as far as you want.... I agree with Midnyte somewhat and have a similar story... recently a friend tried coke, and was basically trying to tell me how great it was and wanted me to do it at a party... fuck that shit nigga you ain't no friend of mine.

Pride is a wonderful thing... It can take you through your entire life and give you a feeling of justification regardless of the situations you encounter or the choices you're forced to make. My pride in who I am inside has got me here without regrets.

Sorry, One more parallel to pot... Many years ago at my parents house, I was always easily able to hide my usage of pot with cigarette smoke until I quit smoking cigarettes... half a year or so later, I was questioned on the "tobacco" smell by my mother. I gave her a lot of respect and expected the same in return, so in response I looked her square in the eyes and told her it wasn't tobacco, it was marijuana. From that day forward, for a period of about 2 years, I was treated like I was sub-human. It affected every decision they made regarding me and it was extremely hurtful even though I never budged an inch, not even a fucking millimeter. Imagine that... they actually considered kicking me out of the house. It amazed me how one simple fact could overshadow everything else about me, all the good things I've done, and the good person that I am. Eventually I called them out on it, in what turned out to be an emotional confrontation, and a few days later they fessed up to it and changed their tune. I guess this ties into Suevens point that pride alone is not enough to stop negativity from hurting.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 19, 2007, 3:01 pm

Lynks wrote:Thats nice. Too bad thats not what people are talking about you fucking retard. edit* This is regarding "People can choose their friends and who they hang out with"

Its about 2 things. The power of words and the difference between someone being called a pothead and another being called a faggot.

Then why did you say what you said. I just agreed with you and expanded upon it. /boggle

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » June 19, 2007, 3:13 pm

You expanded it in the wrong direction. You turned it into a "people can chose who they hang with" argument. While I do agree with you, the point was that people don't ditch people who are hiding something. You also said something about denying the freedom of choosing friends which doesn't fit the current topic.

In your example, you didn't ditch your friend because he hid the fact that he did coke, but for the fact that he DID do coke.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » June 19, 2007, 3:21 pm

Fash: Just wanted to say thanks for listening and actually thinking about it.

To clarify what I mean by the term 'privilege:' The way I'm using the term, privilege simply refers to some advantage that you automatically have simply by virtue of some fact about yourself. So, let's say you're white and you live in a majority white somewhat rural community somewhere in the deep south. No one in this community is racist per se, that is, no one holds any animosity or ill-feelings toward black people. Nevertheless, when a black person walks into town, they will be viewed somewhat differently-- not necessarily negatively, but differently. People will take more notice of what the black person does, will read more deeply into his actions and motivations, etc. When you, as a white person, walk through town, you don't experience the same thing. That lack of differential treatment is what I mean by 'privilege.'

Everybody has a certain amount of privilege associated with them. There is black privilege in certain context-- say if you're in a heavily-black club in a heavily black area of a majority black city. In such a setting, the white person walking in is the one who's going to be overscrutinized.

However, the important distinction is that most of the traditional "privileged" categories (white, male, educated, wealthy, straight, waspy, etc) enjoy their privilege in far more socially important settings (ie, courtrooms, board rooms, sports bars, most streets, etc etc) than do folks who fall into traditional "unprivileged" categories (gay bars, inner-city housing projects, etc).

Post by **Sylvus** » June 19, 2007, 3:39 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:If I found out a friend of mine has been snorting coke for the past 10 years I knew him, I would no longer wish to hang out with him at all.

Why not? What's different about your friend now? Is (s)he a different person now, just because you found out something about them that you didn't know about before? And even that's a far cry from dropping a friend because you find out that their sexual preference is different from your own. Why does someone's sexual preference have any bearing on their qualifications as a friend? How does that even enter into the equation?

I realize that "the faggots" are just the latest in your hilarious, edgy series of minorities to troll about, and you're just going with this one because you don't feel as much resistance from the rest of the community for your bigoted views against a sexual preference like you did when you went with race or religion. I think it's more a function of people gradually growing to pay attention to less and less of what you say than anything else. It's unfortunate that you're that little of a man that you feel the need to talk like that. Anonymously, on the internet, for that matter. I guaran-fucking-tee that you lack the balls or the conviction to try any of these arguments in real life around the groups of people that you regularly use your pejorative labels and borderline hate speech against here on the boards.

Yes they are just words. I'm very interested in semantics, and I strongly believe that no words are inherently bad. That part of your argument - if you want to call it that rather than offal surrounding your juvenile attempts to get away with using slurs (here we go with semantics again) - is correct. The words are not bad. The meaning and context that the word is used in is what makes it bad, and the fact that "nigger" and "faggot" were labels used by people at an advantage against groups of people that they were hurting in some way is why those words are looked at negatively today. Being just words doesn't erase the fact that those words were and are used by people who were or are limiting rights and opportunities or physically/emotionally abusing groups of people.

Just like you might like to generalize and say that "black folk use nigger so much in their everyday ghetto speak", people who were killed, injured and persecuted by people wielding the words that you think are so harmless might also like to generalize that people using those words may be prejudiced against them and looking to harm them in some way. Only in their case, it's justified.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 19, 2007, 6:13 pm

Sylvus wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:If I found out a friend of mine has been snorting coke for the past 10 years I knew him, I would no longer wish to hang out with him at all.
Why not? What's different about your friend now? Is (s)he a different person now, just because you found out something about them that you didn't know about before? And even that's a far cry from dropping a friend because you find out that their sexual preference is different from your own. Why does someone's sexual preference have any bearing on their qualifications as a friend? How does that even enter into the equation?

I realize that "the faggots" are just the latest in your hilarious, edgy series of minorities to troll about, and you're just going with this one because you don't feel as much resistance from the rest of the community for your bigoted views against a sexual preference like you did when you went with race or religion. I think it's more a function of people gradually growing to pay attention to less and less of what you say than anything else. It's unfortunate that you're that little of a man that you feel the need to talk like that. Anonymously, on the internet, for that matter. I guaran-fucking-tee that you lack the balls or the conviction to try any of these arguments in real life around the groups of people that you regularly use your pejorative labels and borderline hate speech against here on the boards.

Yes they are just words. I'm very interested in semantics, and I strongly believe that no words are inherently bad. That part of your argument - if you want to call it that rather than offal surrounding your juvenile attempts to get away with using slurs (here we go with semantics again) - is correct. The words are not bad. The meaning and context that the word is used in is what makes it bad, and the fact that "nigger" and "faggot" were labels used by people at an advantage against groups of people that they were hurting in some way is why those words are looked at negatively today. Being just words doesn't erase the fact that those words were and are used by people who were or are limiting rights and opportunities or physically/emotionally abusing groups of people.

Just like you might like to generalize and say that "black folk use nigger so much in their everyday ghetto speak", people who were killed, injured and persecuted by people wielding the words that you think are so harmless might also like to generalize that people using those words may be prejudiced against them and looking to harm them in some way. Only in their case, it's justified.

That's a lot of questions Sylvus. But, here goes.

I will not associate with this friend any longer, because I don't trust druggies. I feel no need or desire to spend my limited free time with someone I can't trust.

I do not have any gay friends. I have known many gay people in years working in corporations, etc. I associated with them during work and at happy hours, etc. I don't have enough in common, thus far, with any gay people, that I have felt a desire to establish a friendship with one.

I will gladly discuss racial issues just as openly as I will discuss homos. I thoroughly enjoy discussing such interesting social issues. Problem is, on this board, any difference in opinion or realistic speak makes me some racist, sexist, bigot, or whatever label you so carelessly throw about. You McCarthistic (is that a word?) assholes throw around these labels so frequently, you have made them meaningless.

Little balls? It has nothing to do with the size of my balls. I have and will continue to discuss racial issues, homo issues with blacks and gays that I come across in my life that I feel comfortable doing so with. I would not sit with a bunch of ghetto gang members and philosophize with them about my views on racial issues, etc. Then again, I wouldn't sit with them for any fucking reason at all. I chose to surround myself with intelligent and reasonable people. Those people, whether they be black, asian, latino, gay, or whatever, I would feel comfortable discussing anything with.

The black race has decided to use the word nigger once every 5 words. Not the entire black race, of course. But, the portion that gets media, music, movies, TV, comics used it for the past 15 years as though it were the word "the". You cannot do that and then claim hurt feelings and feel threatened.

Context is what matters not words. Stop being a small minded finger pointer. Next time you feel the need to point the finger, step in front of a mirror first.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » June 19, 2007, 6:25 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Sylvus wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:If I found out a friend of mine has been snorting coke for the past 10 years I knew him, I would no longer wish to hang out with him at all.
Why not? What's different about your friend now? Is (s)he a different person now, just because you found out something about them that you didn't know about before? And even that's a far cry from dropping a friend because you find out that their sexual preference is different from your own. Why does someone's sexual preference have any bearing on their qualifications as a friend? How does that even enter into the equation?

I realize that "the faggots" are just the latest in your hilarious, edgy series of minorities to troll about, and you're just going with this one because you don't feel as much resistance from the rest of the community for your bigoted views against a sexual preference like you did when you went with race or religion. I think it's more a function of people gradually growing to pay attention to less and less of what you say than anything else. It's unfortunate that you're that little of a man that you feel the need to talk like that. Anonymously, on the internet, for that matter. I guaran-fucking-tee that you lack the balls or the conviction to try any of these arguments in real life around the groups of people that you regularly use your pejorative labels and borderline hate speech against here on the boards.

Yes they are just words. I'm very interested in semantics, and I strongly believe that no words are inherently bad. That part of your argument - if you want to call it that rather than offal surrounding your juvenile attempts to get away with using slurs (here we go with semantics again) - is correct. The words are not bad. The meaning and context that the word is used in is what makes it bad, and the fact that "nigger" and "faggot" were labels used by people at an advantage against groups of people that they were hurting in some way is why those words are looked at negatively today. Being just words doesn't erase the fact that those words were and are used by people who were or are limiting rights and opportunities or physically/emotionally abusing groups of people.

Just like you might like to generalize and say that "black folk use nigger so much in their everyday ghetto speak", people who were killed, injured and persecuted by people wielding the words that you think are so harmless might also like to generalize that people using those words may be prejudiced against them and looking to harm them in some way. Only in their case, it's justified.
That's a lot of questions Sylvus. But, here goes.

I will not associate with this friend any longer, because I don't trust druggies. I feel no need or desire to spend my limited free time with someone I can't trust.

I do not have any gay friends. I have known many gay people in years working in corporations, etc. I associated with them during work and at happy hours, etc. I don't have enough in common, thus far, with any gay people, that I have felt a desire to establish a friendship with one.

I will gladly discuss racial issues just as openly as I will discuss homos. I thoroughly enjoy discussing such interesting social issues. Problem is, on this board, any difference in opinion or realistic speak makes me some racist, sexist, bigot, or whatever label you so carelessly throw about. You McCarthistic (is that a word?) assholes throw around these labels so frequently, you have made them meaningless.

Little balls? It has nothing to do with the size of my balls. I have and will continue to discuss racial issues, homo issues with blacks and gays that I come across in my life that I feel comfortable doing so with. I would not sit with a bunch of ghetto gang members and philosophize with them about my views on racial issues, etc. Then again, I wouldn't sit with them for any fucking reason at all. I chose to surround myself with intelligent and reasonable people. Those people, whether they be black, asian, latino, gay, or whatever, I would feel comfortable discussing anything with.

The black race has decided to use the word nigger once every 5 words. Not the entire black race, of course. But, the portion that gets media, music, movies, TV, comics used it for the past 15 years as though it were the word "the". You cannot do that and then claim hurt feelings and feel threatened.

Context is what matters not words. Stop being a small minded finger pointer. Next time you feel the need to point the finger, step in front of a mirror first.

I guess it makes sense that I never even so much as knew you and fash were related then.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 19, 2007, 6:49 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:
I guess it makes sense that I never even so much as knew you and fash were related then.

Not really. Fash and I happen to be very similar. We grew up with loving parents, in the military, around all races, etc. We never cared about anyone's race at all. We still do not. We both don't like criminals. We could care less what color they might be. Both of us could care less what someones sexuality might be. We both chose our friends wisely. The only big difference is, my little brother LOVES POT!

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » June 19, 2007, 7:03 pm

Midnyte wrote:Context is what matters not words.

Midnyte, I think that most people agree with you on this.

Consider: The word "faggot" might not be harmful when used by a gay man to describe himself, or when used by a gay man to describe a gay friend of his. The word "faggot" might be harmful when used by a straight man to describe a gay man who is a relative stranger.

It's the same word; but the context is different, and it's this difference in context that makes it harmful.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » June 19, 2007, 7:11 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:
I guess it makes sense that I never even so much as knew you and fash were related then.

Not really. Fash and I happen to be very similar. We grew up with loving parents, in the military, around all races, etc. We never cared about anyone's race at all. We still do not. We both don't like criminals. We could care less what color they might be. Both of us could care less what someones sexuality might be. We both chose our friends wisely. The only big difference is, my little brother LOVES POT!

Exactly

You said you don't associate with druggies (not that I consider fash one, cause I don't, but I figured you would.)

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » June 19, 2007, 7:13 pm

Sueven wrote:
Midnyte wrote:Context is what matters not words.
Midnyte, I think that most people agree with you on this.

Consider: The word "faggot" might not be harmful when used by a gay man to describe himself, or when used by a gay man to describe a gay friend of his. The word "faggot" might be harmful when used by a straight man to describe a gay man who is a relative stranger.

It's the same word; but the context is different, and it's this difference in context that makes it harmful.

Which is bullshit. Double standards need to go away and I refuse to conform to that bullshit. If it's ok for a faggot to call a faggot a faggot, then it's ok for anyone to call a faggot a faggot. It's all or nothing, I refuse to acknowledge anything else.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » June 19, 2007, 7:44 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote: I guess it makes sense that I never even so much as knew you and fash were related then.
Not really. Fash and I happen to be very similar. We grew up with loving parents, in the military, around all races, etc. We never cared about anyone's race at all. We still do not. We both don't like criminals. We could care less what color they might be. Both of us could care less what someones sexuality might be. We both chose our friends wisely. The only big difference is, my little brother LOVES POT!

No offense, bro, but I object to the claim that we're 'very' similar. We had a similar upbringing and we have some common core values, but we're very different people. I learned from a lot of your mistakes (and didn't learn from others) and I feel that we have completely different outlooks on life and what's important. We place different values on interpersonal relationships, other people and their choices, legalities, our own choices, and the consequences of all of the above.

Since it's on topic, I associate with all orientations at work... but outside of work, I admit I am homophobic... Simply put, I stay away from gay dudes... no offense to them, I just won't become close friends with one in RL for personal reasons that have nothing to do with them, which I'm sure stem mostly from my own insecurities and the amount of thoughts (read: worry) about what others are thinking about me. (Please don't feel the need to attempt to combat this, you'll just waste our collective time) Maybe I should re-state that I am 100% in favor of gay marraige (and abortion, and suicide, and decriminalization/regulation of lesser drugs)

I love pot like I love this pair of shoes I'm wearing... I don't think the shoes aren't going to last forever, nor do I think my pot usage will. The shoes could theoretically last forever, as could the pot usage, but pot to me is a wildcard, a one size fits all hat, or a kids blanket... It's fun -now-... I'm willing to put money on it that I will stop a short while into a serious relationship with a great woman. For now, however, I'm worse than Seinfeld in finding flaws in every girl that comes my way.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » June 19, 2007, 7:46 pm

Funk, Feel free to refuse to acknowledge whatever you want. If you would, please go up and read my initial post on this issue, especially the part about not engraving your beliefs into stone until you've done a lot of thinking about the issue and feel certain that you have a full understanding that incorporates multiple perspectives.

There's no point to arguing about this, because it's really the sort of thing that you learn through experience, not the sort of thing that I (or anyone) can explain.

Funk, you're a hip-hop sort of guy, right? I've always gotten the impression that you're involved in whatever hip-hop scene exists in whatever part of Minnesota you live in. You must have black friends, no? Have you talked to them about their take on the word "nigger," when it's acceptable to use it, who's permitted to use it, etc? If you have, and they say "a word is a word is a word no matter who uses it, no matter what context," then fine, but in my experience the vast, vast majority of black people do not feel this way. Is there no validity in their perspective and their experience of the use of the word?

Additionally, saying that 'if "they" can use it, I can use it' is indicative of a troubling worldview that aggregates all (insert minority) into one generalization. Not ALL black people use it. Are you going to stop and find out if the black person you're using the word in front of is the sort of black person who uses it or not? Are you just going to go with your generalization and say that because SOME black people use it, it's ok for you to do so? Or are you (most likely) never ACTUALLY going to say the word in a manner that might offend someone in front of a black person, rendering the question irrelevant?

Fash: Respect is due for being honest about yourself. We all have insecurities, but not many of us will admit to them.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 19, 2007, 11:46 pm

Sueven wrote:
Midnyte wrote:Context is what matters not words.
Midnyte, I think that most people agree with you on this.

Consider: The word "faggot" might not be harmful when used by a gay man to describe himself, or when used by a gay man to describe a gay friend of his. The word "faggot" might be harmful when used by a straight man to describe a gay man who is a relative stranger.

It's the same word; but the context is different, and it's this difference in context that makes it harmful.

No. In your scenario the context isn't different. It isn't harmful if a straight man calls a fag a faggot. It would be threatening if the straight man said, "I want to beat that faggot to within an inch of his life." In that context, it is harmful and threatening. "Faggots should get paid less than the rest of us.", also not a neutral context. Context is everything.

Fash: I completely agree. I wasn't trying to say we are the same, just not vastly different.