The God Delusion

[Nick]

I've been reading "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins recently (in between studying Plato's Fucking Republic for my retarded philosophy class ) and I was wondering, which VV'ers believed in God (in the theistic sense) and why?

Now, I'm not trying to piss on your lifestyle or anything, I'm just interested in seeing why you value faith above rationality.

I've been an atheist pretty much since I was young/old enough to consider the concept and Dawkins has been a cathartic experience for me in regards to any remaining doubts I may have had (most of which were based off drug experiences).

So far, "The God Delusion" has been a hilariously logical argument against a theistic god. For any who have read it, feel free to share your thoughts, for any who believe in god, feel free to share your thoughts (us atheists won't jihad you to hell!).

I guess I just want to spark a religious debate here, so contribute as you see fit!

Personally I am a man of science and rationalism and cannot fully take seriously a person who feels that faith (as a presumed virtue) in the stereotypical Old Testament, New Testament or Quran God(s) as gospel.

So let's get it started!

Do you believe in God?

Why?

What annoys you about atheists?

What annoys you about theists?

Do you think that deists or agnostics are middle ground pussies?

Are you worried about the degree of fundamentalism in the world today (Christianity in America, Muslims in the middle east?)

Do you think the world would be better of without Religion?

Is morality something that can only be dictated by religion?

Does Ted Haggard love the cock?




Could be fun Join in!

[Arborealus]

Atheist since 1963.

Ted Haggard and all fundamentalists love the cock.

No problem at all with religions per se. I do have a problem when they want to make religious beliefs laws w/no thought that they might not be values shared by the larger community (or, as often, the thought that the larger community should obey them because they are "God's" law.) Let god enforce his laws and the police enforce our laws.

[Kryshade]

I'm just curious if atheists believe in other non scientific things like souls, love etc. Things that are in everyday life but have no scientific backing or reasoning. What about an afterlife?

As to answer your question. I don't really know what I am... agnostic maybe? I like to say that I'm not a religious person, I'm a spiritual one. I do believe in God, I do believe in Jesus... as well as Buddha, Allah or whatever else you would like to call your religious personification.

IMO, and it's just my belief. I can't see how there isn't some sort of creator, or God. Yes, I've read all the science behind the big bang and evolution etc, but there are just to many things in daily life that make me believe that there is a God. I think more of the debate is who the Son of God really is, or all they all one in the same?

[Arborealus]

For my part ...I'm an empiricist...

Sure there are things we don't know or understand but nothing that is unknowable...No magic and elves...

[Animalor]

While I do believe in God (I'm Catholic), what I do not believe in is organised religion and/or the corrupt fucks running it at the Vatican or the local administrations(cardinals etc) that will cover priests that do ill to people.

I think that gays should be allowed in the priesthood and priest should be allowed to marry.

What it comes down to is that I've lost faith in the people running the show, but not the message they're trying to convey.

I also believe that religion is a highly personal thing and people that feel the need to broadcast it on every rooftop are every bit as fucking annoying as the "I'm here I'm queer" and "Loud and Proud" people.

[vn_Tanc]

I don't have a problem with faith. I have a problem with organized religions and their idiotic dogma.

[Funkmasterr]

I do not believe in god, to me the thought is absurd. Blind faith (or just faith period for that matter) is also a joke to me, I believe what I can see and what can be proven.

Jesus was a fucking nutjob that got peoples attention in a day where there weren't any shrinks to notice what he was and throw him in the loony bin.

Do I want to believe there is an afterlife? Of course I do, just like I would like to be a billionaire and see starvation and all diseases and disorders be cured- But the reality of it is that none of this shit is going to happen and I can accept that when I die I will be buried in the ground to decay.

I think that death and the fear of there not being an afterlife is what is too big for people to swallow, and they find comfort in a fairytale.

[Wulfran]

Do I believe in God? Not in the traditional Christian sense but to me there are too many unanswered questions to not allow the possibility of a higher power... someone viewing us as we view an ant farm or bacteria culture under a microscope. I think the Judeo-Christian religions are mistaken in thinking that God is some omniscient, ever-loving, singular entity.

What annoys me on both sides are the absolutists: you can't prove it either way but both sides have those who act as if they can, and act the role of condescending dicks. Call me indecisive or wishy washy or whatever, but this is an issue where I keep thinking of that old cliche "for complex problems there are always simple, easily identifiable wrong answers".

The degree of fundamentalism in the world, I do find troubling, not because they religious but rather in the way they misinterpret their religions. I can't speak to Judaism but Christianity and Islam, at their bases are supposed to be about peaceful acceptance and co-existance with others. Too many fundamentalist religious leaders (on all sides) seem to have a 12th or 13th century idea of what that means. As for the world being better off without religion, I can't really envision a world where people don't have an "unknown spirit" of some sort to beseech for aid and comfort in the face of the stress/danger/etc. As I (and others)have said, I think the main negative on our modern religions comes from leaders who misinterpret dogmas and try to use it politically.

[Xatrei]

I'm just curious if atheists believe in other non scientific things like souls, love etc. Things that are in everyday life but have no scientific backing or reasoning. What about an afterlife?

There's plenty of scientific evidence and explanation for why we experience emotions like love, hate, fear, etc. It's pretty clear that the capacity to experience these and other emotions evolved in us as a result of the advantages it gave to our distant ancestors, just as did the capacity for experiencing faith which probably gave way to religion. Dawkins and others such as Daniel C. Dennet and Pascal Boyer do a great job of explaining this, although Dawkins' style is a far to confrontational and demeaning to ever gain much of an audience beyond those who have already managed to shed their faith. He's a brilliant man and an incredible writer, though. I highly recommend checking out some of his earlier works like "The Blind Watchmaker" or "The Selfish Gene."

In answer to the question, I've been an atheist since I was quite young. I began to question the religious myths that were taught to me at a very early age (not long after I learned the truth about Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy ), but I would guess that this developed from agnosticism (before I knew what the word meant) to atheism before I was 12.

Obviously, atheists don't annoy me too much, but adherents of most religions, especially the more devout, fundamentalist people of faith bother me greatly. I have especially little tolerance for the injection of dogmatic ideology into matters of governance and public policy, and I have zero tolerance for those that would try to recruit me into their ranks. I find the whole idea of belief in gods to be rather silly and primitive, but am perfectly happy to leave believers to their myths and fantasies if they'd just leave everyone else alone. Unfortunately, that's not the case with an absurdly large number of them.

I do not believe that religion is a prerequisite to morality. As with emotions and our capacity for faith, the myriad of ethical constructs that, collectively, we call morals seem to have evolved in our species as a result of the advantages that it gave our early ancestors as we began to form larger social groups. There have been books written on this subject in recent years, and I suggest checking out "Religion Explained" by Pascal Boyer and "Moral Minds" by Marc Hauser for excellent coverage of this topic.

[Kluden]

I believe in the Creator. Baptized orthodox. I am nondenominational nowadays.. I just can't accept that things just happened, and we don't have a scientific proof as of yet.

Separation of church and state is what I'm all about. I can't stand people pushing belief structures on other people, and things of that nature (Like offering aid to poverty stricken countries, but only at the cost that they "accept Jesus" and the faith you are presenting.). Religion truly scares the shit out of me because of the affects it has on the world's population. Organized religion makes the baby Jesus cry...because its just another profit center and control medium for power hungry dictators.

What annoys me about athiests? Nothing. Its your choice, but I would never treat you different than someone else just because you don't believe in a higher power.

The world would not be better without religion. The truth of it is, there just aren't enough people who can think on that level and live properly. They need the moral code, they need the fear, and they need someone to tell them what to do...so religion serves those people that can't help themselves. Again, the extreme religious views destroy so much...its hard not to say the world would be better, but I bet if you sit and think about it, you would see that there would just be too much anarchy and lawlessness without religion.

Morality, see the above...people that can't help themselves need something to tell them what is right and wrong...and laws don't do a good enough job for that type of person. With a utopian society, I imagine you would have the correct amount of like minded individuals, that could identify their own moral code. Otherwise, people are just too different, and need a common ground..hence religion..to teach a moral base.

edit: corrected misuse of the word "agnostic".

[Winnow]

I've been an atheist since ~1980 and was undecided before that.

What bothers me most about religion is that it's included as one of the five institutions:

family, government, economics, religion, and education

It's not. Family, government, economics and education are the real institutions with religion being a bogus add-on.

A side affect of religion is controlling the masses, mostly through fear and intimidation, to keep them inline. I will admit that if not properly educated, the masses would be uncontrollable without a reason to keep them inline.

That's where our current education system has failed us. Properly taught, anyone with average intelligence would be able to comprehend morals and values and why laws are necessary in a society to keep order. (not religion).

Religion hangs on for a few reasons but they mostly boil down to:

-fear of the unknown/death
-controlling the masses, the less educated the general populace, the more it's needed
-greed/corruption

The most common misunderstanding "believers" have of atheists is that they have no morals or values. Rubbish. Any society functions because of it's government, no matter how large or small, which is based on laws that either the people as a whole have determined are the operating norm for their society, or are dictated to them in non democracies.

The second thing that bothers me is the first argument a "believer" puts forth as a reason to believe: "You have nothing to lose by believing and what if it's true?" Holy crap, if you need to say that to an atheist, you've already lost any hope of being taken seriously.

Agnostics fall into this category of "hedging their bets". There's no need to do this. If something turns up down the road, great, but until then, believing there's some sort of god for the hell of it seems about as useful as writing a science fiction novel on the subject. Science steadily beats down religion over time and religions adjust to compensate to keep their flock believing which sickens me.

All of the above is why I dislike religion without even getting into the main point of all the wars and oppression it's caused.

When it comes to religion, the only benefit I see is that it comforts those that are near death or even those that just have a fear of death in general. Education is where morals and values should come from. It's also something else to do and talk about with relatives instead of the weather or sports.

If religions could:

-keep their fucking beliefs to themselves and not peddle them
-prevent organized religion from corruption and greed
-stick to the basics of comforting the weaker minds with fuzzy feelings of the afterlife

I'd at least be OK coexisting with believers.

[Lalanae]

I think someone needs to define agnosticism again for this board (although every time religion comes up someone invariably does)

Edit: Winnow beat me to it

An agnostic is a fence sitter. S/he recognizes that s/he cannot prove or disprove the existence of a divine being (or beings) so does not go either way. They just accept that they don't know. So, if you say that you believe in a divine force, you are NOT agnostic.

I myself am an atheist. I believe that there are certain phenomenon that we currently can't explain (and is therefore attributed to something "mystical") but that eventually we will develop the proper scientific tools to explain these things. Religion has always found a place where man's scientific endeavors have come up short.

[Lalanae]

Oh and I do not believe in a "soul." I think we are biological and psychological enties, nothing more.

[Dregor Thule]

Atheist. I'll respect anyones wishes to believe whatever they want, as long as they don't try and push it or their "values" on anyone else. Oddly, every religion fails at that

I wouldn't say agnostics are pussies. Indecisive, yes. I mostly view them as people who want to fall back on the comfort zone religion can give them without having to ascribe to any of the rules of one. I guess I actually respect them more than those who follow an organized religion in that case. At least they recognize a flaw.

In regards to religious fundamentalism (fandamentalism?) it's a worrying trend to be sure, but in truth it's pretty mild compared to centuries past. Still, the resurgence is a step backwards for America at the very least. It will pass, it's already passing I think.

The world would be different without religion. I can't say it would be better. I think it would be impossible for there to have been no religion up to and including now. That said, I think it's obvious that somewhere down the road religion will fall by the wayside. Part of that whole enlightenment thing.

Religious morality is almost an oxymoron.

Ted Haggard most definitely does love it.

[Markulas]

Atheists and religious folks are a lot similar than they'd like to admit. What pisses me off about both of them is their superior sense of knowing, because somehow they are able to tell everyone their view of God is correct. Well guess what? Everyone is clueless as the next person, so please stop acting like you know something.

On the other hand science has constantly proven religious writings wrong. But the religious writings are made by people, so to me it's just a person proving another person wrong.

[Moonwynd]

I do believe in God. I am also a rational man.

Nick wrote:

I'm just interested in seeing why you value faith above rationality.

In my younger days (teens and twenties) I was rather conflicted. I was finishing my degree in Geology/Paleontology and my faith certainly was being tested. I tried to rationalize my faith with the scientific theories that went against my faith (eg. The biblical flood, the age of the Earth, the day/age theories, etc.). But as I grew older I began to realize that my faith and spirituality was not bound by the conventions of organized religion - it is a personal, one on one matter.

Organized religion can be a good thing - fellowship, support, community...but it has certainly done quite a bit to ruin the faith of many people - priest sex scandals, unscrupulous "praise the Lord" televangelists who would rob you blind, gay sex scandals, the Inquisition...witch trials, the control of governments...

I characterize myself as a deeply spiritual person. I grew up in a fairly strict Jewish household - became a Christian at 19 - and now at 38 I regularly attend Quaker meeting as well as zen meditation and Dharma readings at the Southwind Sangha Sôtô Zen Association. I recently started reorienting myself with my Jewish heritage because I believe there are many paths to God and that all forms of faith and spirituality have merit.

In essence, I believe there is a spiritual part of human beings that contributes to our whole. I also believe that good acts, compassion, mercy, peace, honesty, and kindness must be nurtured in one's heart and soul - there is a time and place for anger and indignation - but it should be righteous and not malicious. I believe faith without these things is useless.

In a nutshell - faith and spirituality are not dependant upon organized religion. One's faith can peacefully and rationally co-exist with scientific theory and law - simply because faith and sprituality is a personal matter that transcends anything Man can attempt to prove or disprove.

Regards,

Moon

[Marbus]

I believe in God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I have actually met Richard Dawkins and had the great pleasure of spending an afternoon with him discussing Evolution back in College. I have also read most of his books. He is a brilliant man, we just disagree.

Raised Baptist until I couldn't take the hypocrisy (sp) then becamse Presbyterian but currently doing a lot of reading will most likely reconcile my Christian Faith with the Holy Catholic Church in Rome.

Now do I agree with everything the Church does? No, do I agree with all of the people in it? No, not going to ever agree with anyone on everything. However from serious studying the Catholic Church truly seems to be the most Biblically based, something that would shock most Fundies.

They, while not giving up on moral issues, do make sense of many things that Fundies will never let go of and waste too much time worrying about (i.e. evolution, how "old" the earth is, etc...) Plus they don't just disregard half a verse because they don't like what it says anymore...

As a trained counselor who scored 99.9th percentile on the Psych GRE in College and 28 on the MCAT I have spent time studying Biology, Psychology, Religion (including all the major theistic and pagan), Philosophy, Logic, Metaphysics etc... often in my spare time since Graduate school (yea how boring is that! LOL!)

From those studies, I have experienced nothing that truly shakes my Faith. Questions? Of course, and I believe 100% that we are suppose to question in order to grow and understand.

I believe in Evolution, but that belief in no way interferes with my belief that God created the world.

From my studies it seems the more we know, the more questions are posed with at the same time. Which is great because we are growing as a species.

I have also seen and felt to many things that I believe were God's hand at work. They don't conform to rational explination and they weren't random neurons firing.

I do think the more political or financial power a Religious bodys has the more likely they are to be corrupted due to our shortcomings. However that is present everwhere, you have to look for the good people in all locations, wheither that be work, home, school OR Church.

I also believe that if we all truly followed the teachings of Jesus Christ that the world would be quite a wonderful place. While I'm not trying to judge I will say that most fail at that much of the time, including myself... however I try to do a little better each day.

Some people believe that Christanity makes slaves out of us, if so then I'm a slave to God for without him I am nothing. However not once in my life have I felt like a slave, even while reading Nietche's (sp) books. What I do feel is the Grace and Forgivness that helps me to be a better person and treat people as they should be most of the time rather than choking the @#$% out of them like they probably diserve

I have no problems with anyone elses beliefs, if they want to know I'm always happy to share my faith and what I believe, because I believe it's correct (otherwise I wouldn't believe it now would I?) I would rather someone say they are an Athiest of Agnostic if they are than try to pretend they are something they aren't. We MUST be honest with ourselves if we are going to live the right kind of lives and function in a civilized society. However I can pray that God works to urge those people to consider and invistigate alternatives, primarily His Grace.

I don't expect everyone to agree, nor understand... but truly that is ok

Love,
Marb

[Winnow]

I also notice a lot of religious people explain their beliefs like this:

"I'm religious...but I'm not like all those other religious people! I disagree with this and this and this (add about 100 exceptions) and I've been able to fully integrate science into my beliefs and will continue to completely alter my beliefs to make sure they fit new meanings as science debunks what I currently believe or would have 5, 10, 100, 1000 years ago. All of those religious wars and oppression have nothing to do with what I believe because if religion was black coffee, I take mine with this magic cream that wipes away 99% of what religion actually is."

As for the peaceful religions, of which there are a few (none have anything to do with a Christian god), those are OK but are more like meditation/philosophy than belief in the corny stories someone dreamt up from the past to mess with people.

[pyrella]

When I was 11 I had to do a report on 'religion' for school. I'm sure the idea was for us to write 'haha, I love jesus' and get an easy A. My parents unfortunately weren't the type to let me get off easy like that, and made me go to the library, and actually look at what religion was, and what the options are/were.

That was pretty much the day I went agnostic (in exactly the way it was described above as being incorrect!).

First was the cliche: Religion is the opiate of the masses - which clearly I agree with - people who don't play MMO's, or have healthy hobbies, need something to get shit off their chest, or to set goals, or whatever. I don't care, I play video games, instead of 'seeking' god. If s/he's real, I'm sure another asshole on the doorstep isn't going to improve their supposedly sunny disposition.

Second was sheer fact/process of elimination, or rather, lack there of. You have 7(if I remember correctly) major religions. While most of them preach the same core fundamental (not fundamentalism) values....they have drastically different facts in how they are presented.

Here is the question I asked myself, that no one can answer: You have all these religions - that 'tell it like it is'....differently. Who is right? Should we go with majority (Hinduism). Should we go with who is more forceful in pushing it (Christianity and the crusades? Islam and various Jihads) The guys who are smug because they know they are right (Buddhism/Taoism?(actually I doubt they are smug, but just for conversations sake!).

So in the event someone actually *HAS* nailed it down - who is right, and which other several billion people are being lied to and accepting it?

I respect people who question that which is around them - but why not question fact and what is here and now, and not what is written in a book with no verifiable sources, in the ancient past?

Why hasn't there been a major new religion (not cult (although arguably any religion could be called a cult)) since the dawn of any decent form of communication, say Pony Express and on, since I can't remember when the Mormons were founded. You know, the people basing their religion off a book that was written by a guy who went in to the forest translating it from some shit people couldn't see/use themselves?


To sum it up - most religions are based on embellished fairy tales, that someone(s) decided to say, hey, I'm bigger than you, believe what I wrote, or I'll beat you up.




Edit:

Oh yeah, the agnostic part - I still believe in a 'higher power', I just don't believe anyone's nailed it down. For all I know, it could be Bob, down in accounting, who just likes to take care of shit. But there's plenty of time's I've been damn 'lucky' when I probably shouldn't have been, and conversely, I've been fucked plenty of times when I probably shouldn't have been.

You know, calling out some crazy shit that would be cool if it happened, or murphy's law, etc.
Mmm transcendental opiates.

[pyrella]

I guess quantum physics could be similar to agnosticism, no?

[noel]

I believe that if you read a book that agrees with an opinion you already have it will further bolster your own opinion.

[Nick]

Well, if it makes compelling arguments, provides evidence to reinforce already presumably known science and is written with fantastic style that would seem like a bit of a no brainer

[Boogahz]

Well, if it makes compelling arguments, provides evidence to reinforce already presumably known science and is written with fantastic style that would seem like a bit of a no brainer

I think you missed the point...maybe not though. If you were a religious person, your "holy book" could be seen as doing exactly what you feel this book does for you.

From the thread title, which I am assuming is also the title of the book, you don't present a very unbiased forum for the discussion. You aren't looking to actually learn anything about "the other side" based on this, but it comes across as a "calling out" for belittling others for what they believe.

[Nick]

I think you missed the point.

Oh well, my bad.

From the thread title, which I am assuming is also the title of the book, you don't present a very unbiased forum for the discussion

I'm not a mediator, I had a few questions I felt I'd share.

You aren't looking to actually learn anything about "the other side" based on this, but it comes across as a "calling out" for belittling others for what they believe.

Oh boo fucking hoo Boog, people don't have to agree or reply if they don't want to. People are so quick to cry offense everytime religion is raised.

[Boogahz]

I think you missed the point.

Oh well, my bad.

I guess you stopped reading and missed where I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Oh boo fucking hoo Boog, people don't have to reply if they don't want to.

Here's what I was referring to:

Now, I'm not trying to piss on your lifestyle or anything, I'm just interested in seeing why you value faith above rationality.

And you edited your post while I was making mine...I was not crying offense at all.

[Arborealus]

As for the peaceful religions, of which there are a few (none have anything to do with a Christian god).

Quakers are peaceful.

[noel]

A few points:

Buddhism isn't so much a religion as a philosophy. Buddha was a real person.

Jesus was a real person.

Mohammed was a real person.

None of those facts prove or disprove religion, but they're facts. Each of those people were very influential either in life or death on a large group of people.

I'm agnostic. I sit firmly on the fence and I like it there. That said, I think there are values in several of the religions I'm familiar with that are very useful during people's daily lives. It's a shame really that religion has been so perverted and used in modern society.

I think the biggest single problem with religion, regardless of whether or not it's based on fact, is that not enough religions preach to leave other people the fuck alone.

[Nick]

Fair enough Boog,

I guess I just agree with Dawkins that blind faith is less of a worthwhile venture than rationality and truth. You wouldn't take someone's argument seriously if for example they approached you and said, "I believe that the world will end tomorrow because I just know it in my heart" so belief/faith aloneis not really a strong enough argument to argue for or against anything.

I prefer to know something is true, or have a good idea if it's true based on evidence, than to simply believe something is true.

No one can prove or disprove the existence of God, but that's not really an excuse to say "well I dunno". We all know Unicorns don't exist, or fairies so why the difference when referring to some superhuman entity that works outside the laws of the Universe?

That will no doubt seem offensive to people with a lot of faith, but should it?

When I look at religion in the world today I don't (unfortunately) see the peaceful genuine fellows like Marbus, I see the raving "ALLAH AKBARS!" and Jesuscamp loonies gaining sway and carrying out murderous acts in the name of their particular belief and I have to ask, what's so great about all this crap?

(I know I may sound like a bit of a Dawkins puppet to those that have read the God Delusion, that's mainly because his arguments are a billion times for intelligent and eloquent than mine)

[Boogahz]

When I look at religion in the world today I don't (unfortunately) see the peaceful genuine fellows like Marbus, I see the raving "ALLAH AKBARS!" and Jesuscamp loonies gaining sway and carrying out murderous acts in the name of their particular belief and I have to ask, what's so great about all this crap?

That's because the people who peacefully practice their religion without attempting to force others to join them do not make for a good news segment

[Nick]

To Marb,

Now do I agree with everything the Church does? No, do I agree with all of the people in it? No, not going to ever agree with anyone on everything. However from serious studying the Catholic Church truly seems to be the most Biblically based, something that would shock most Fundies.

Hello matey, do you agree with everything in the Bible? Do you believe that the New Testament is the literal word of God?

However from serious studying the Catholic Church truly seems to be the most Biblically based, something that would shock most Fundies

They, while not giving up on moral issues, do make sense of many things that Fundies will never let go of and waste too much time worrying about (i.e. evolution, how "old" the earth is, etc...) Plus they don't just disregard half a verse because they don't like what it says anymore...

What do you think of the Catholic Church's attitude of not advocating the use of Condoms in third world countries with Aids epidemics?

From those studies, I have experienced nothing that truly shakes my Faith. Questions? Of course, and I believe 100% that we are suppose to question in order to grow and understand.

One thing I have always asked myself is, why does God hold faith in him higher than all other values? (Including being a "good man")?

I would sort of assume that if there is a compassionate God he would take the moral elements of humanity as more important than simple faith.

I believe in Evolution, but that belief in no way interferes with my belief that God created the world.

But didn't God make man in like a day? Why do you believe that God made the world, but now accept that God did not make Adam in one day?

From my studies it seems the more we know, the more questions are posed with at the same time. Which is great because we are growing as a species.

Exactly

I have also seen and felt to many things that I believe were God's hand at work. They don't conform to rational explination and they weren't random neurons firing.

Mind sharing these with us? I've never ever experienced a miraculous incident myself :/

I do think the more political or financial power a Religious bodys has the more likely they are to be corrupted due to our shortcomings. However that is present everwhere, you have to look for the good people in all locations, wheither that be work, home, school OR Church.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I also believe that if we all truly followed the teachings of Jesus Christ that the world would be quite a wonderful place. While I'm not trying to judge I will say that most fail at that much of the time, including myself... however I try to do a little better each day.

Does that mean we should kill a disobedient child? Or villify homosexuals? How would that help the world be a wonderful place?

What I do feel is the Grace and Forgivness that helps me to be a better person and treat people as they should be most of the time rather than choking the @#$% out of them like they probably diserve

Well those are admirable traits for sure, do you use the Bible as more of a moral guideline than anything else?

I don't expect everyone to agree, nor understand... but truly that is ok

[Nick]

That's because the people who peacefully practice their religion without attempting to force others to join them do not make for a good news segment

Yeah of course, but I don't think the news media is really to blame for the spread of fundamentalism in the world, or causes people to kill in the name of God

[Winnow]

Well, if it makes compelling arguments, provides evidence to reinforce already presumably known science and is written with fantastic style that would seem like a bit of a no brainer

I think you missed the point...maybe not though. If you were a religious person, your "holy book" could be seen as doing exactly what you feel this book does for you.

It's not the same. If we learn something that changes the way the world works, it's accepted as part of our evolving knowledge. When the same thing is learned by a religious nutjob, they try and stuff it into an existing story and say something like, "well, ah..., erm...that's what God really meant! We just needed to reinterpret the bible for the thousandth time." The problem is that the story is already flawed to begin with and you're just making it worse by adding to it.

The best example is evolution...religious people back peddle like mad on that one until they finally gave up and just take the stance, "well ok, we "misinterpreted" the bible and those seven days really meant exactly what Darwin is saying...but God created whatever started that!" .....which will satisfy the freaks until we figure out what that was and then they'll back peddle and say, "well god created that then!" It's so fucking pathetic but that's why there's no winning a religious debate...it has nothing to do with the even lamer "faith" excuse...it's that they just won't fucking admit they're wrong...ever...it's just a continuous back peddle and "reinterpretation" of the bible.

The famous quote:

"Any sufficently advanced technology is indistiguishable from magic." - an Arthur C. Clarke

You religious people (I'm not talking about the ones that use religion to meditate, etc but the freaky "God created Earth" insano types) probably won't live long enough to see everything explained by "normal" science but it will happen...and well get the response, "God created that times infinity!"...so, since there's no convincing these people, the next best thing it getting the crazy fuckers to stop killing each other over these stories while killing innocent Atheists in the process.

[Arborealus]

Buddhism isn't so much a religion as a philosophy. Buddha was a real person.

Buddhism is is a religion replete with mysticism, spiritualism, dogma and doctrine. It isn't a theistic religion. But it is every bit as much religion as say Shinto, Shamanism etc...

[Xatrei]

Buddhism isn't so much a religion as a philosophy. Buddha was a real person.

Buddhism is is a religion replete with mysticism, spiritualism, dogma and doctrine. It isn't a theistic religion. But it is every bit as much religion as say Shinto, Shamanism etc...

All true, but that describes some traditions (or more accurately some subsets of the three traditions) better than others. Many western buddhists pursue an extremely pared down, essential form of dharma practice, stripped of the dogma and mysticism that has been attached to many buddhist traditions through the centuries. Much of modern western buddhism is more of a manifestation of humanist introspection rather than buddhist ideals. Either way, it is very much a religion no matter how it's practiced.

[Siji]

I don't have a problem with faith. I have a problem with organized religions and their idiotic dogma.

Ditto.

"The kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in buildings
of wood and stone; break a piece of wood and you will find me, lift a
stone and I am there."

[Nali]

All of my life, I have lived in the South. I was raised to be Christian(Baptist), but I've always been a skeptic. In my opinion, religion -especially Catholicism- is a tool to control the masses. I can, however, see both sides of the dispute of a god, or lack of.

As far as organized religion goes, leave it to humans to fuck it up. It is apparent that it has evolved greatly since its founding. That's one reason I do not consider myself to be religious. Religion has been corrupted beyond repair for the most part... as far as Christianity goes. And for that matter... who are we to say that religions in practice today are the "right" ones.
When I think of this debate, I recall ancient religions. Greek, Roman, Egyptian, etc - all of these religions are branded as mythology. Didn't the practitioners of these faiths believe that their religion was the right one? Who are we to say that they were wrong, and we are right? Anyways, sorry for the rant! I know it's a bit off topic.

[Arborealus]

Buddhism isn't so much a religion as a philosophy. Buddha was a real person.

Buddhism is is a religion replete with mysticism, spiritualism, dogma and doctrine. It isn't a theistic religion. But it is every bit as much religion as say Shinto, Shamanism etc...

All true, but that describes some traditions (or more accurately some subsets of the three traditions) better than others. Many western buddhists pursue an extremely pared down, essential form of dharma practice, stripped of the dogma and mysticism that has been attached to many buddhist traditions through the centuries. Much of modern western buddhism is more of a manifestation of humanist introspection rather than buddhist ideals. Either way, it is very much a religion no matter how it's practiced.

Yerp...Zen and most western forms are Buddhism Lite......Most Buddhists though still practice the doctrine...

For the record I think the Buddha would approve more of the western form...he was not a fan of doctrine and dogma and had no desire to be deified...

[Spang]

i believe in deja vu.

[Fairweather Pure]

Religion is a learned behavior.

People that are a particular faith have surprisingly few real choices when "deciding" which religion to follow. I'm sure if someone were so incliened, they could make a flow chart that would show how 95% of every person is following thereligion they are.

Marbus is a good example. He has studied every argument against religion for longer than anyone can imagine, and he is still choosing to become Catholic. Of course you are. Look at your socioeconomics status. Is it a real big surprise you're not going to be a hindu or hasidic jew? Wow, you mean you're not going to join that little Island cult that worships fish? *insert surprise here*

People choose a faith that reflects thier personal value system. They do not choose something that restricts thier lifestyle and says the things they think aren't so bad are actually really bad.

"I want a religion that accepts me no matter what, teehee!" <---I fucking hate those people. I was raised a Mormon (amoung other things), and those people had some hardline RULES. If you didn't follow them, they kicked your ass out. Oh sure, they tried to help you mend your ways, but if you didn't, then you were excommunicated. That's just how they roll. I always respected that.

I like how Menanites are Amish that were like "Hey, zippers and electricity aren't so fucking bad afterall". I also like the Reformed LDS church that thinks cigarettes and booze isn't so bad. I love any offshoot of a major religion that just changes the rules a little and makes another sect that loosens those binds just a little more. Homo? C'mon over to our offshoot of Catholics that still love and accept you even though you love teh cock.

Society has a greater impact on the shaping of religion than religion has on shaping society. 300 years from now, gays may be running the Vatican and history will be rewritten yet again from a religios standpoint. It's a neverending cycle that I'm glad not to be a part of.

Oh yeah. I'm neither agnostic or athiest. I honestly and genuinely do not care. I figured out at a very young age that I would never find the true answer, or at least one that would satisfy me so I moved on to other things like porn and video games. I'm much happier.

[Kaldaur]

I am agnostic. There are things out there that I don't have the scientific capacity or knowledge to make accurate assumptions on. The universe is a large place, and we haven't even explored our own solar system. To me, the idea of a higher power, or more intelligent or powerful life form, is completely within the realm of possibility. Therefore, I cannot say for certain whether or not we were made from a "God" or from natural evolution from proteins.
Do I worship a God? No. I play piano for church choirs, I accompany services, but I do it for the fellowship and the money. I like the people aspect of the Church, and not its religious teachings.
Since I wasn't around during the time of our creation, many billions of years ago, I don't know for sure what occured. If life was seeded by an alien race, if life was created by a passing "God", if it was just a lucky chance, I don't know--and won't know in this lifetime. So I choose not to worry about it. Whether or not I believe in a God won't change a damn thing. The world will continue to spin, George Bush will still be a primate, and I can still die in a car crash or live to be 130. My belief in a supernatural being, warranted or otherwise, won't change anything in my life. So, I don't bother worrying about it. Hence, the agnostic.

[Arborealus]

Religion is a learned behavior.

The practice of particular religions is learned. I would say the the creation of religion is species typical. Our big brains look to make sense of things...to find cause. That is the origin of religion, philosophy and science. Religion is the easiest and earliest to develop. Animism is the easiest and earliest religion to develop. So the development of religion in the absence of empirical information is pretty natural...it is the search for cause...

[Markulas]

It wouldn't be called faith if there was some scientific evidence behind it would it?

[redeemed]

Christian. I believe Jesus is who he said he is. I try to follow the "two greatest commandments" : love God, love others.

wasn't raised in a church, God came to me in a way that blew my mind a few years back and I've had faith ever since.. not going to give my "testimony" but I just thought I'd throw in.

for me it's all about truth and love.

[kyoukan]

Like nick, I'm way too clever and intelligent to fall for a scam like religion. Religion is for suckers and people not as smart as myself. I'm going to begin routinely starting threads unsubtly declaring this as well.

[Thess]

The God Delusion was a really good book, I recommend it!

[Winnow]

Oh yeah. I'm neither agnostic or athiest. I honestly and genuinely do not care. I figured out at a very young age that I would never find the true answer, or at least one that would satisfy me so I moved on to other things like porn and video games. I'm much happier.

Not caring follows along the lines of my opinion that religion isn't even an institution and I wouldn't miss it at all if it didn't exist...but, you can't "not care" when those bozos cause continuous chaos between groups of humans.

So, while I would prefer not to think about it, it's impossible not to when badgered by those that believe.

Adding to the reasons for religion, not so much today, but back before there was lots of cheap entertainment and social opportunities, this "fellowship" stuff people talk about makes sense as people didn't have much else to do socially after the endless hours worked just to survive. This all changed when the Water Buffalo Lodge was created in Bedrock where a fraternity was born, including Fred and Barney, and members could gather to drink, bowl, etc. Donations could then be made there instead of the church which provided better entertainment value.

I would love to place myself in the "don't care" category. I really don't and will never bring the subject up with friends or anyone I'm with as it's not on my mind until something trips the topic from another person. They key is I don't waste my time on the subject but will offer my opinion when confronted.

As someone said previously...your beliefs should be between you and your god...PLEASE leave them that way. If it makes you happy, great. Religion is just another way to focus yourself. It's easy to get that fucking drunk on the sidewalk to believe because he has nothing to lose...he'd also follow the next Hitler if given another bottle of wine. "Saving" poor, down on their luck people isn't that hard. Don't get too excited over it. Try converting rich people. Good luck! (you'll always get a few whackos like Tom Cruise) As Fairweather said, "plugNplay religion is the most common, and even then, with modifications as people see fit.

People that lack a focus in life will also wander toward religion. It's not easy for some to grasp the finite life cycle of humans. Religion is just an extended warranty (and we know what a rip off those are typically)...now, if you were a businessman...where do you make the easiest money? Selling extended warranties...people buy them and you make 90% profit on them...so goes the churchs and religions. "Come one, come all! *passes the donation plate*

[Marbus]

Nick,

Wow... I'll try to answer those...

I agree that the Bible is the Word of God and is to be taken Literally when it indends that in regards to events etc... but not in regards to areas obviously meant to placate (ie the Creation story).

I think the Church is going to have to address that issue. The Church is stance in reagrds to contraception is to saves lives. Since not allowing condoms to those who may or may not agree is doing the opposite they will have to rectify that.

The Catholic Church teaches that leading a moral life, through the sacraments and enabled by God Grace is how a Christian gets to Heaven. It's not saying a 15 second prayer and you are good to go for the rest of your life.

See my first answer in regards to Adam. God, as the Bible states, is outside of time. A "day" to God may have been millions / billions of years to us. In fact I think the description of brining him up from the sand is a pretty good illusion to evolution myself.

At 15 I was injured badly and facing multiple reconstructive surgeries on my face, a broken jaw etc... The Dr.s have multiple sets of XRays that don't match. Either my body miraculous healed itself over the course of a night or God did. I firmly beleave in the power of the human will but not like that. My new son Gabriel was rushed to Arkansas Childrens Hospital 12 hours after birth 2 weeks ago with what they thought was a collapsed lung. Once he got there the XRays again showed something different, still bad enough to stay for a week but nothing like they thought. Could have been a dirty XRay... or could have been another miracle... I opt for the latter.

Ah how people miss the point due to fundies... While the Old Testament is still important, the "Laws" were wiped away with the New Covenant. No we don't kill a disobedient child or villify homosexuals. Jesus led by example, read the NT, just the first 4 books and see if you don't think living a life like that would make the world a better place. Don't just assume some fundie minister or even some Catholic Priest has it correct.

In a sense lets put it this way on your last statement. Jesus instructed people to Love God with all their Heart and Love their neighbor as themselves. I think that is a good moral guideline to start with.

Marb

PS - Winnow has made that arguemnt before that some Religious people always defend it that way. Could it be that it's because it's true. There are all kinds of intellect in Religion and out of it. Wheither you believe or not dosen't make you any more intelligent. However most athiest believe that, I think that is pretty funny myself.

[rhyae]

I'm more of an existentialist. No souls, no spirits, no afterlife, no satan. Do what you can with the life you have now.
In the bible belt, we live like fugitives... It's routine to get asked in a start up conversation with a stranger what church you attend.

What I find amusing is the explainations christians give for things like fossils, a workmate told me they were put there by the devil to confuse us.
Naturally.
Another workmate said she is afraid to read the book The da Vinci Code. Her church has prayed about it and it's bad influence. They missed the part about it being fiction.
But what good is a faith that's not tested?
Nothing about organized religion makes sense to me.

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

I don't know why, but reading this thread, Clarke's third law popped into my head (again):

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic

[Jice Virago]

My opinion is no secret, but I think anyone who takes the bible literally is either lying or needs to be committed. Here is a gem I lifted from another thread on a similar topic:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I will simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Not that any of this matters as Crispies are always selective about what they choose to enforce in their faith anyhow...