What the fuck is wrong with NBA players?

[noel]

Not sure how many of you saw the 'action' at 'The Garden', but it was just fucking stupid. Check out any sports site, and you'll see video of it. Both teams got into it after a flagrant foul... TEN players ejected, Isaiah Thomas manages to look like an idiot.

ESPN reporters were speculating that Melo might get 10 games for his sucker punch/haymaker, but I hope they fucking ground his ass for the season, and anyone else that threw a fucking punch. That shit has NO place in a goddamn basketball game.

I actually feel bad for David Stern.

Linkage: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=261216018

Edit: Oh btw, I like the NBA a lot. If you hate the NBA and think they're all stupid ganstas, save the post.

[Winnow]

I like how Stern is taking into consideration players bitching about the ball and refs with way to quick whistles on technicals but when it comes to fighting, I hope he continues to make the suspensions brutal.

Perhaps teams will take into consideration if players are thugs before they trade for them or draft them if there are real penalties to their team.

It's a bonus for teams with good character players. Monster suspensions and monster fines will result in loss of endorsement money as well. The most important thing to me is that the end result actually hurts their teams and the player's popularity as it should. It's the only way it will stop. Fans will be pissed at the player, companies endorsing these players will be pissed at the player, and hopefully the league will remain focused on stopping fights instead of trying to make the NBA no fun like the NFL when it comes to celebrations, etc.

[Kelshara]

I am not surprised whatsoever that Melo did that. I've said it since he was in college, he is a spoiled little brat of a primadona.

[Al]

He only got 15 games. That is a travisty. I consider that a slap on the wrist for what he did. The smallest penalty should have been 15 games.

[miir]

That wasn't even a fight, it was punch then bunch of guys hugging each other.

Maybe they should make it like hockey and allow these guys to beat each other up. Would that be so bad?

[noel]

I've heard several counterpoints to your question.

1. The NBA is a different game. Games like hockey and football have guys wearing pads and playing a game that has a long history of physicality and occasional violence. Basketball does not.

2. David Stern likes having the ability to sell courtside seats for $2k a pop. Basketball is really the only professional sport where you have fans able to sit that close to the actual players and actual action without any type of barrier. The problem with court violence is that without said barriers, you put those $2k a pop customers at risk when the violence inevitably spills out into the crowd, and then you risk another Detroit/Indiana incident.

Those aren't my arguments, just the ones I've heard. Personally, I tend to agree with the first. I think basketball is a different sport with different standards, and I think there's something to be said for holding Professional athletes to those standards.

On a related note, fuck Isaiah Thomas. If he doesn't like that he's being shown up on his floor by an opposing team, maybe he should mix in some fucking defense and some coaching instead of ordering a 'code red' from the sidelines. The sooner he's out of New York and out of coaching/player management, the better for all involved.

[Gzette]

sounds good, but alas no penalty box

[miir]

1. The NBA is a different game. Games like hockey and football have guys wearing pads and playing a game that has a long history of physicality and occasional violence. Basketball does not.

Hockey is really the only professional sport (besides the sports where fighting IS the sport) where fighting is acceptable.

It's interesting how the players basically police themselves. It's not often you see players taking cheap-shots at the stars, for fear of the repurcussions. The NHL fighters are essentially a fraternity and often the fights happen because these guys are trying to fire their team up.

[Truant]

On a related note, fuck Isaiah Thomas. If he doesn't like that he's being shown up on his floor by an opposing team, maybe he should mix in some fucking defense and some coaching instead of ordering a 'code red' from the sidelines. The sooner he's out of New York and out of coaching/player management, the better for all involved.

This is exactly what my father and I concluded with when discussing this.

If you're upset because you're losing bad, don't suck so much.

[miir]

On a related note, fuck Isaiah Thomas.

Yeah, I can't stand that fucking guy.
He may have been a good player but he's been a cancer on every team he's been involved with in a coaching or executive position.

[Gzette]

i think he sucks too, in fact i think the knicks are perhaps the worst franchise in all of pro-sports, except maybe the raiders. but really keeping your starters in with that big of a lead is insulting, especially when youre on an opponents court. i think more respect should be shown, a la the saints running the clock out on the goal line against the cowboys last week when victory was well in hand.

[noel]

Whether or not 'respect was shown' or 'they were running it up on them on purpose' is really a separate issue. George Karl says they weren't, but of course they were because Karl is a big Larry Brown guy. It's a separate issue though and it really doesn't have a place in the discussion of the brawl itself because it's no excuse for the actions of the players.

If another team is running it up on you like that you have several choices... a) play better, b) complain about it to the media after the game, or c) suck it up and take it. Option d) order a 'code red' on one of the opposing players and warn their star to 'stay away from the paint', is not an option you have and Thomas should have his ass handed to him for it.

[Sueven]

I think that the punishments are totally acceptable. I agree that basketball players ought to not punch each other and so on, that's totally reasonable. However, let's not blow this out of proportion here-- it was a relatively minor fight. Ever been in a fight? I've been in a few, and I've never seen any repercussions beyond whatever happened in the fight. NBA players shouldn't act like such assholes, but I refuse to hypocritically hold them to a standard far and away beyond what I expect from my friends and myself.

[Winnow]

That point about the people in the front rows, basically unprotected, is a valid one. The Nugget and Knicks players went flying into the first few rows.

Unless you think all fans are assholes, they have every right to bring their kids to a game or grandparents, etc, and they don't need to be rolled over by a bunch of hyped up jockheads. If they get clocked in the face by an errant pass or by a player diving for a ball, that's a different story. Reasonable risk of sitting courtside is probably made clear on the tickets, but not from a brawl.

It's even entertaining to see a drink go flying from time to time. The other night, some NBA player ended up with his entire forearm covered in nachos cheese after diving into the first row. Good stuff and the kid kept on eating the nachos.

[noel]

However, let's not blow this out of proportion here-- it was a relatively minor fight. Ever been in a fight? I've been in a few, and I've never seen any repercussions beyond whatever happened in the fight. NBA players shouldn't act like such assholes, but I refuse to hypocritically hold them to a standard far and away beyond what I expect from my friends and myself.

Were you at work when you got into a fight? Were you at work surrounded by your customers? What would happen to you if you were at work and you got into a fight where your life wasn't being threatened? Does an employee fighting during a business function affect the customer's perspective of that company? Remember that this is the NBA and the customers that are there to witness this are not just at the stadium/arena, but also watching on TVs all over the world. Does the NBA not have a right (and interest) to protect their brand image? Remember that the players are 6' something and 200+ lbs. and you have women and children sitting courtside. The NBA was VERY lucky no one was hurt in the incident.

Sorry I don't see the relevance of your argument.

[Sueven]

Nope, I wasn't. Doesn't mean that fights don't happen at work-- what about the incident this past year (maybe 2 years ago) when John Gibbons, the Blue Jays manager, challenged Shea Hillenbrand to a fight? What about when Sam Mitchell challenged someone (Rafer Alston?) to a fight? What about the Eagles/Falcons game last year?

I'd also like to point out that most workplaces are not arenas of physical competition in which your opponent is permitted to hurt you in certain ways. The boss of your main competitor has never instructed one of his employees to intentionally hurt you when you get close to solving a problem. I doubt that you've been in a situation, at work, where an employee of a rival business violently threw one of your coworkers to the ground, and then got in your face and talked shit about it. I'm not saying that the 'at work' thing is totally irrelevant, but it's not some grandiose moral distinction either. Let's not pretend that yours or my workplace is similar to a basketball court, or a football field, or a hockey arena, or a baseball diamond. There's a reason that there are far more fights during sports competitions than there are during late-night debugging sessions, and it has to do with the differences in circumstance.

Why aren't participants in baseball brawls punished more strongly? When was the last time you saw a baseball player get suspended 30 games for throwing a punch or charging the mound? What about football? Fights aren't that uncommon, and they're usually punished by an ejection and maybe a one-game suspension.

The ONLY relevant difference between fights in baseball, football, hockey and basketball is the proximity of the fans. That's it. That difference does merit a slightly stronger discipline program, and guess what-- there's a stronger discipline program in place in the NBA. Why do onlookers react so much more harshly to violence in the NBA than violence in baseball or hockey? I don't know the answer for sure, but I have an idea, and it involves NBA players, the color of their skin, and the neighborhoods they tend to come from.

When Frank Francisco THREW A CHAIR INTO THE STANDS AND BROKE A WOMANS NOSE, he was suspended for 16 games. In basketball terms, that translates to 8 games. And Carmelo deserves more than what he got because he endangered the fans by punching a player?

I'm not saying that he ought not to be suspended. I'm just saying that the suspensions in place are perfectly appropriate, if not excessive, when judged by the standards we apply to everything in life except the NBA. If anyone wants him to be suspended longer, that's fine and I respect that position, but I damn sure expect you to advocate harsher punishments for violence in every other sport as well. And I damn sure expect you to COMMEND the NBA for being tougher on on-court violence than any other professional sport in America.

[Boogahz]

1. The NBA is a different game. Games like hockey and football have guys wearing pads and playing a game that has a long history of physicality and occasional violence. Basketball does not.

Hmm, I am guessing you haven't had to spend much time in the paint against ~ seven footers? Hehehe. The physical nature of the "fights" on the court are often ignored. I had my nose broken twice, hand once, arm once (although that was due to a rim breaking on a dunk), leg once, fingers a few times, a couple broken toes, and two (that I can recall) concussions. All were from contact on the court, although one concussion was actually the result of my temple slamming into another player's hip while diving for a ball and THEN slamming into the court. This doesn't even include the "normal" injury of blowing my knee out...

I don't agree with all of the people's actions in the "brawl," but I can understand some of them. The foul, while not clean, probably wasn't as intentional as it looked. The point at which I feel the melee advanced TOO far was when additional Knicks surrounded the player which THEY fouled and trash-talked to him. The foul itself was "normal" enough for that point in a game. That was where things got out of hand in my opinion. Nuggets saw their teammate surrounded and being yelled at by the opponents, and some of them ran in to "separate" everyone. Each person was already agitated, and the additional "contact" by the oponents just caused those emotions to flare up. Carmelo's "punch" was the only one that I honestly think deserved a harsher penalty.

In reference to those in the first few rows, the area on the baselines is generally for press more than the $2,000.00 ticket-holders (in the front row at least). I wasn't paying enough attention to the people that were actually landed on in the video of the melee though. If you are paying that kind of money, you want to be on a sideline, not the baseline.

[noel]

Nope, I wasn't. Doesn't mean that fights don't happen at work-- what about the incident this past year (maybe 2 years ago) when John Gibbons, the Blue Jays manager, challenged Shea Hillenbrand to a fight? What about when Sam Mitchell challenged someone (Rafer Alston?) to a fight? What about the Eagles/Falcons game last year?

Not sure where you're rolling around, but in my neck of the woods, these incidents were all joked about in the, 'So sad and disappointing you have to laugh at it' kind of way.

I'd also like to point out that most workplaces are not arenas of physical competition in which your opponent is permitted to hurt you in certain ways. The boss of your main competitor has never instructed one of his employees to intentionally hurt you when you get close to solving a problem.

I have yet to see anyone that endorsed Isaiah's behavior on this... The NBA certainly hasn't.

I doubt that you've been in a situation, at work, where an employee of a rival business violently threw one of your coworkers to the ground, and then got in your face and talked shit about it.

Rival team yes, but they all work for the same business under the same collective bargaining agreement so I don't really see this as relevant at all.

I'm not saying that the 'at work' thing is totally irrelevant, but it's not some grandiose moral distinction either. Let's not pretend that yours or my workplace is similar to a basketball court, or a football field, or a hockey arena, or a baseball diamond. There's a reason that there are far more fights during sports competitions than there are during late-night debugging sessions, and it has to do with the differences in circumstance.

Agreed, but remember that we're talking about the NBA, not the other sports/entities you mentioned. The NBA has some very specific ways in which they deal with fighting. Throwing a punch whether it connects or not is an automatic one game suspension. These rules have been on the books for some time, so I think as a company/entity/whatever you want to call them, they've established that they don't want that type of behavior in their place of 'business'. Also bear in mind the path of escalation in this incident. If it's just a flagrant foul and cooler heads prevail, one person gets ejected of Ted up. If it's just the two guys fighting, two guys get maybe a one game suspension and all is well. It's when it escalates and people like 'Melo (who I like btw) add fuel to the fire instead of helping to resolve the situation.

Why aren't participants in baseball brawls punished more strongly? When was the last time you saw a baseball player get suspended 30 games for throwing a punch or charging the mound? What about football? Fights aren't that uncommon, and they're usually punished by an ejection and maybe a one-game suspension.

Again, we're talking about the NBA that operates under a different set of rules than MLB and has an altogether different history with fighting. Also remember that there's really never any danger for the crowds when there's a baseball brawl (there are some recent exceptions). If your argument is that all sports should allow fighting, that's a separate discussion, but the NBA league office would disagree with you pretty vehemently.

The ONLY relevant difference between fights in baseball, football, hockey and basketball is the proximity of the fans. That's it. That difference does merit a slightly stronger discipline program, and guess what-- there's a stronger discipline program in place in the NBA. Why do onlookers react so much more harshly to violence in the NBA than violence in baseball or hockey? I don't know the answer for sure, but I have an idea, and it involves NBA players, the color of their skin, and the neighborhoods they tend to come from.

I'm sorry, were the players black? I didn't really pay attention cause I saw a bunch of guys fighting and crashing into the crowds. Then I saw another player run up, sucker punch someone and then back away across the court (wtf was that btw). Are there black people in football? Baseball? Hockey? I hadn't noticed that either, but since you're tuned in to the color of their skin maybe you could enlighten me.

Personally, I think the reason the reaction is different is because of how the NBA has evolved over time (there was never a fighting element to the games, and there were rarely actual fights), and because the 'Malice in the Palace' two years ago that's fresh in everyone's mind.

When Frank Francisco THREW A CHAIR INTO THE STANDS AND BROKE A WOMANS NOSE, he was suspended for 16 games. In basketball terms, that translates to 8 games. And Carmelo deserves more than what he got because he endangered the fans by punching a player?

Again, are we talking about the NBA or all sports in general? If I have to tell you that Bud Selig is a useless piece of shit then you don't know much about baseball. I would have grounded Francisco for a season but that's just me.

Carmelo got hammered because he did nothing to defuse the situation and instead added to it... a lot. The NBA players have been repeatedly briefed on this since the incident at the Palace, and are in a position to know better.

I'm not saying that he ought not to be suspended. I'm just saying that the suspensions in place are perfectly appropriate, if not excessive, when judged by the standards we apply to everything in life except the NBA. If anyone wants him to be suspended longer, that's fine and I respect that position, but I damn sure expect you to advocate harsher punishments for violence in every other sport as well. And I damn sure expect you to COMMEND the NBA for being tougher on on-court violence than any other professional sport in America.

I think the NBA is the best managed league in the country and I think Stern is the best commissioner by far. I don't agree with all of his decisions by a longshot, but I do think that he always acts in what he believes is the best interest of his sport and he's at least willing to change when a mistake has been made.

Regarding the other sports... as I said, I don't think the comparison is valid. Fighting in baseball, hockey and to a lesser extent football has been around for a long time.

Maybe I'm being naive and nostalgic, but I remember back to when Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan were playing and every time a fight were even about to start, I remember players pulling each other apart, not turning it into a battle royal. To me, that's the difference. I don't know why today's NBA player (obviously a broad generalization) thinks that it should be any different now, but if the Nuggets/Knicks had acted in that way the other night we'd be talking about 1 maybe 2 1 game suspensions, not a 46 game NBA nightmare.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it.

Boog, I've played with some big guys, and I've banged around in the paint as much as a 5'10 160lb guy can, but there are things that are part of the game and are accepted and things that aren't. That's why the refs are there to enforce the rules if someone goes too far. I'm certainly not saying they always get it right, but there is a line and a player IS supposed to be punished when he crosses it.

[Sueven]

Not sure where you're rolling around, but in my neck of the woods, these incidents were all joked about in the, 'So sad and disappointing you have to laugh at it' kind of way.

That's about what the reaction was in my neck of the woods too. Note that 'sad and disappointing' is not the same thing as 'apopletic outrage.'

I have yet to see anyone that endorsed Isaiah's behavior on this... The NBA certainly hasn't.

They haven't suspended him yet, either.

Rival team yes, but they all work for the same business under thesame collective bargaining agreement so I don't really see this as relevant at all.

That's great, but doesn't have all that much relevance to the dynamics of identity in a team sport. Claiming that there's nothing to identifying and bonding with your teammates is just willfully ignoring the actual dynamics of the situation.

If your argument is that all sports should allow fighting, that's a separate discussion, but the NBA league office would disagree with you pretty vehemently.

It's not. It's that we ought to consider the disparity between the general societal reaction to fights in the NBA as compared to the general societal reaction to fights in other sports. Including our reaction to the punishments that are handed down to the perpetrators.

I'm sorry, were the players black? I didn't really pay attention cause I saw a bunch of guys fighting and crashing into the crowds. Then I saw another player run up, sucker punch someone and then back away across the court (wtf was that btw). Are there black people in football? Baseball? Hockey? I hadn't noticed that either, but since you're tuned in to the color of their skin maybe you could enlighten me.

Well congratulations. You must be fucking blind, because me personally, I tend to notice that white skin is white and black skin is black without even trying; my brain kinda does it for me naturally. I don't mean to sound like a prick, but claiming that you don't notice someones race is bullshit. You might not judge them based on race, but you absolutely notice it. So do I, and so does everyone else. Pretending that race doesn't exist does not help to solve the problems of racism, real solutions to racism require us to take race seriously.

Now, I'm not saying that you're a racist, I'm saying that society reacts more negatively to the NBA than it does to other professional sports leagues because of latent, systemic racism. That societal disdain, in turn, can affect the opinions of completely non-racist people.

Personally, I think the reason the reaction is different is because of how the NBA has evolved over time (there was never a fighting element to the games, and there were rarely actual fights), and because the 'Malice in the Palace' two years ago that's fresh in everyone's mind.

I think you're right about the Palace having an effect on reactions to this incident. I don't think you're right about there being no history of violence in the NBA. Kermit Washington? Jeff Van Gundy? Latrell Sprewell? I'm not old enough to remember too far back, but I've never had an impression that fights are nearly unheard of in the NBA.

Bill Simmons, who certainly watches more NBA than either of us, disagrees with you. Relevant excerpts:

Stern is trying to expunge fighting, but you cannot expect these guys not to rub each other the wrong way every once in awhile. That was NOT a bad brawl. We just live in an era of sports media right now where this stuff is instantly blown out of proportion. For instance, check out this You Tube clip of a Knicks-Lakers fight from 1988 and tell me if it's any different than what happened on Saturday night: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVnlPq_kYns

There have been at least 100 fights in the last 25 years that were worse than Saturday night's fight.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=14033

Again, are we talking about the NBA or all sports in general? If I have to tell you that Bud Selig is a useless piece of shit then you don't know much about baseball. I would have grounded Francisco for a season but that's just me.

I'm talking about the NBA as compared to other sports.

Regarding the other sports... as I said, I don't think the comparison is valid. Fighting in baseball, hockey and to a lesser extent football has been around for a long time.

Maybe I'm being naive and nostalgic, but I remember back to when Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan were playing and every time a fight were even about to start, I remember players pulling each other apart, not turning it into a battle royal. To me, that's the difference.

I simply think that this is factually incorrect. Neither of us has any data or anything, so it is what it is.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it.

Same to you.

[noel]

On the race subject, I didn't mean that I didn't notice the players were black vs. white. I obviously know what Carmelo Anthony and others look like. I was trying to ellude to the fact that I hadn't really thought about it in that context, and I honestly couldn't tell you if there was or wasn't a white player on the floor/involved because I hadn't thought of that. All of my reactions to the incident in question were geared toward the incident. You might be right about society as a whole, but I'd argue that there are just as many black players in football as in basketball. Maybe it's because the 'gansta look' is more visible/prevalent with NBA uniforms v. NFL.

[Sueven]

The NFL has a fairly high proportion of black athletes, but not nearly like the NBA. The NBA also has more of a 'hip-hop image' (whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean, what it actually does mean is that it's 'more black'). Individual players are not as visible in the NFL as they are in the NBA, so guys like Allen Iverson are easy to see and associate with the NBA, while guys like Pac Man Jones are known only as names in an article, not as faces and people. Out of the NFL players who are highly publicly visible, I think the one who is perceived as 'most black' is Michael Vick, and he also draws some of the same sort of disgust as the NBA generally does. The University of Miami is another visible football entity which is socially seen as 'black' and draws far harsher reactions than it's perceptually 'white' counterparts do for similar behavior.

I believe that you were reacting to the incident, not the race. I think most people react that way. But I think that many peoples reactions (not yours necessarily, who knows) are conditioned by background understandings that would not exist were it not for the race factor in the NBA. Something is defined by society in a certain way, and we unconsciously take that identification into account in our thought processes.

I can't fully explain this without going way into it and writing another book (which I might do eventually, anyway) but the short version is:

I think there's a connection between the perception of the NBA as a 'black' league and the general attitude that, say, NCAA basketball is better than NBA basketball because there is 'more teamwork' or 'the players really care' or 'the NBA is just a bunch of one-on-one.' These claims are absurd, they're simply not true. The second one might be true, I guess, but it's a criticism which applies to football as much as basketball.

So, there develops a general opinion which exists out there in society, something like 'NBA players are thugs.' Individual people might not necessarily share that opinion, but they become aware of it, they know that it's an opinion that exists and that some indeterminate-but-significant number of people hold it. This inevitably influences their thought processes in subtle ways. These effects, multiplied by all the people who know anything about a subject, have significant influence over how something is perceived. In this case, my argument is that these influences can lead people, who don't have a racist bone in their body, to react more strongly to an NBA brawl than to an MLB brawl.

Hopefully that made a little bit of sense.

[Truant]

I'll be honest, I skipped a lot of your (plural) posts.

I just wanted to bring up the point that - People pay to see the stars play. They don't pay to go to a game and watch the second string play because one team sucks. If you suck, you're going to have to face the fact that the fans want to see the other teams' starters. Which means you're probably going to lose by a larger margin.

Solution to this problem?











Don't suck.

(i'm being a bit rediculous, but i was disgusted to see the justification for it as 'they're running up the score.' grow up).

[masteen]

Sorry Suev, but that's bullshit. The NBA has a far larger share of players who only care about their contract and their endorsements than any other sport. They could give a fuck about winning a championship.

One of my friends summed it up best: In college, it's all about the front of the jersey. In the pros, it's all about the back.

[Sueven]

If you would be willing to make an argument which gives REASONS why you feel that way, I'd be happy to discuss it. In fact, I'd be downright eager, since I've never heard anyone give an argument which includes reasons for that proposition. Until then, we have nothing to talk about, since you've done nothing but make an arbitrary assertion.

And don't give your friend too much credit for his clever turn of phrase, it's an overused cliche.

[Leonaerd]

That wasn't even a fight, it was punch then bunch of guys hugging each other.

Maybe they should make it like hockey and allow these guys to beat each other up. Would that be so bad?

I've always wished that was what happened. I think they allow it in hockey because of the glass in between rink and fans, though. Putting up glass in basketball would, uh, suck.

[Leonaerd]

If you would be willing to make an argument which gives REASONS why you feel that way, I'd be happy to discuss it. In fact, I'd be downright eager, since I've never heard anyone give an argument which includes reasons for that proposition. Until then, we have nothing to talk about, since you've done nothing but make an arbitrary assertion.

And don't give your friend too much credit for his clever turn of phrase, it's an overused cliche.

You bitch about how Masteen made an arbitrary remark, then attempt to discredit an opposing phrase on account of it being overused. STOP IT.

[Al]

etc... I think most people react that way. etc....

I couldn't tell you the color of the skin on the guy that CA suckered. I can tell you that if you pulled that crap on my basketball court, you'd never play there again.

Basketball is a very different game when compared to football, baseball and hockey. In baseball, if you get hit by a pitch in the head, you could die. It has happened, though not often. In hockey, if you get sucker-checked, it could cripple you. It happens. In football, if you get blind-sided, you could be done playing the game. It happens more than you may think. In basketball a hard foul results in an injured ego. I'm not saying people don't get hurt in basketball, but it really isn't the same as the other sports. Basketball is a "gentleman's" sport. Fighting is not, nor will it ever be, acceptable behavior. Ty Cobb killed a guy and he is in the Hall of Fame. Magic Johnson left basketball because he has HIV. Dick Butkis would have GLADLY given his opponents AIDS if it meant he won the game, and he would still be in the Hall of Fame today if he had!

I firmly believe that every one of the millionaires involved in this ruckus got off with less than a slap on the wrist. Were that me, I would be in jail. They get to not play basketball for a couple of days...

[Sueven]

You bitch about how Masteen made an arbitrary remark, then attempt to discredit an opposing phrase on account of it being overused. STOP IT.

I actually made an argument for my position. You can scroll up and read it if you like.

[Boogahz]

In basketball a hard foul results in an injured ego. I'm not saying people don't get hurt in basketball, but it really isn't the same as the other sports.

See my earlier post. All but one injury came off of fouls, and the last was from diving to grab a loose ball near the end of a close game. I guess that flying down the court and going airborne before being fouled and landing on that soft wooden floor helps save people from injuries. Then again, they have grass and pads in Football, pads in Hockey, grass in Soccer, etc.. Yes, each sport is different, but if you really think there is that little contact/injury potential in Basketball, you need to play more.

[Sueven]

I just saw a clip of a soccer brawl on some news channel that's on in the background here where I am. I don't know where it was or what the context was, but it seemed more violent than the NBA one.

I'll sit back and wait for the societal outrage to flow.

[noel]

So many ways to respond to that...

You do realize it was soccer, right?

You do realize that this is the United States, right?

You do realize that people have to care about something for there to be outrage, right?

The vast majority of the US could care less about Soccer.

Again, you're attempting to draw comparisons that aren't valid.

[Aardor]

So many ways to respond to that...

You do realize it was soccer, right?

You do realize that this is the United States, right?

You do realize that people have to care about something for there to be outrage, right?

The vast majority of the US could care less about Soccer.

Again, you're attempting to draw comparisons that aren't valid.

Why exactly is a comparsion of fights in televised sports not valid?, What exactly can the fight in the NBA be compared to other than different fights in the NBA?

You bitch about how Masteen made an arbitrary remark, then attempt to discredit an opposing phrase on account of it being overused. STOP IT.

So, using a cliche about professional sports vs college sports is creditable?, Also, Sueven "bitched" at masteen for not reading his post, or ignoring it completely. Additionally, he never tried to discredit his phrase, he only pointed out that masteens friend did not come up with it. Maybe you should not bitch at people for things they didn't do, or maybe read people's posts.

[Sueven]

You do realize that people have to care about something for there to be outrage, right?

The vast majority of the US could care less about Soccer.

Since when has caring been a prerequisite for outrage? As far as I can tell, Masteen has made three posts on NBA topics this year: once to make a crude homosexual joke to Stragi, one to bitch at Allen Iverson for being immature, and once here to bitch at all NBA players for being immature. He doesn't care about the NBA except insofar as it's a target of his scorn.

I feel confident that there are a fair number of rich white people who are crazy outraged by this brawl, but care more about soccer than they do about the NBA.

Of course the comparison between the two isn't totally valid, especially given that the soccer brawl was almost certainly in a foreign league. I wasn't attempting to make a rock-solid analogy, but simply as an anecdote intended to give a little hint, to those people who don't understand why I feel the way I do about this, of the way in which violence in the NBA draws much stronger, more vitriolic reactions than does violence in other sports.

Edit:

Noel, I'd appreciate it if you'd explain to me why you ignored the lengthy and thoughtful post which I wrote, explaining why I feel there's a racial element to reactions to this brawl, and then immediately jumped on a post that's obviously not entirely serious. I assume you read the first post, as you obviously read my later post. If you're interested in engaging in meaningless hyperbolic flame-throwing but unwilling to engage in an actual serious conversation about the issues in question, then I have nothing further to say on this topic to you. It's disappointing when one of the few people on this board who is ever capable and interested in having a real conversation rejects an invitation to do so.

Alternately, perhaps you thought that my initial post was either meritless or unclear. If so, I'd be happy to clear up any lack of clarity, and I'd be happy to listen to why you'd disagree with it, if you'd only so indicate.

[Boogahz]

The only people I have seen who are "crazy outraged" about this personally (besides Noel) are the media. People at work were just using it to make [more] jokes about Carmelo Anthony.

[Leonaerd]

So, using a cliche about professional sports vs college sports is creditable?

I was not defending Masteen; I was attacking Sueven for using the same tactics he frowned upon.

[Sueven]

HEY RETARD, HERE'S MY MOTHERFUCKING ARGUMENT

The NFL has a fairly high proportion of black athletes, but not nearly like the NBA. The NBA also has more of a 'hip-hop image' (whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean, what it actually does mean is that it's 'more black'). Individual players are not as visible in the NFL as they are in the NBA, so guys like Allen Iverson are easy to see and associate with the NBA, while guys like Pac Man Jones are known only as names in an article, not as faces and people. Out of the NFL players who are highly publicly visible, I think the one who is perceived as 'most black' is Michael Vick, and he also draws some of the same sort of disgust as the NBA generally does. The University of Miami is another visible football entity which is socially seen as 'black' and draws far harsher reactions than it's perceptually 'white' counterparts do for similar behavior.

I believe that you were reacting to the incident, not the race. I think most people react that way. But I think that many peoples reactions (not yours necessarily, who knows) are conditioned by background understandings that would not exist were it not for the race factor in the NBA. Something is defined by society in a certain way, and we unconsciously take that identification into account in our thought processes.

I can't fully explain this without going way into it and writing another book (which I might do eventually, anyway) but the short version is:

I think there's a connection between the perception of the NBA as a 'black' league and the general attitude that, say, NCAA basketball is better than NBA basketball because there is 'more teamwork' or 'the players really care' or 'the NBA is just a bunch of one-on-one.' These claims are absurd, they're simply not true. The second one might be true, I guess, but it's a criticism which applies to football as much as basketball.

So, there develops a general opinion which exists out there in society, something like 'NBA players are thugs.' Individual people might not necessarily share that opinion, but they become aware of it, they know that it's an opinion that exists and that some indeterminate-but-significant number of people hold it. This inevitably influences their thought processes in subtle ways. These effects, multiplied by all the people who know anything about a subject, have significant influence over how something is perceived. In this case, my argument is that these influences can lead people, who don't have a racist bone in their body, to react more strongly to an NBA brawl than to an MLB brawl.

Hopefully that made a little bit of sense.

I didn't have to make an argument in that post because I already made my argument and no one responded to it. Do they teach you to read at Michigan State?

PS: Masteen's counter argument was

Sorry Suev, but that's bullshit.

[Zamtuk]

Well, they certainly don't teach them to play football!

am i rite?

[Canelek]

Well, I suppose the whole 'slap-and-runaway' argument doesn't play into other pro sports too much....

Pro basketball has been pretty retarded for like 10 years. Boring and whogivesafuck is the name of the game now.

[Boogahz]

And he still got 15 games


Phoenix Suns guard Steve Nash was raised in Canada and reared on a national sport sometimes confused with boxing on ice. Nash was unimpressed with the punch thrown by Denver's Carmelo Anthony at New York's Mardy Collins during Saturday's brawl.

"Typical NBA punch," Nash told the Toronto Globe and Mail. "In hockey, your own team would beat you up for that."

[Winnow]

"Typical NBA punch," Nash told the Toronto Globe and Mail. "In hockey, your own team would beat you up for that."

Great quote!

The difference in hockey though is that the fans are mostly protected from the brawls by the plexiglass walls. It's rarer for the players to take the fight into the stands. They mostly slug it out on the ice.

[Wulfran]

"Typical NBA punch," Nash told the Toronto Globe and Mail. "In hockey, your own team would beat you up for that."

Great quote!

The difference in hockey though is that the fans are mostly protected from the brawls by the plexiglass walls. It's rarer for the players to take the fight into the stands. They mostly slug it out on the ice.

Thats because the NHL has made it worthy of lengthy suspensions to respond negatively to fans at all, in pretty much any way shape or form.

The NBA needs to make a value judgement: does fighting have a place in the game?

The NHL said "yes it does under limited circumstances, but it will be penalized" because the fans like it: a fight is cheered almost as loud as a home team goal in the vast majority of cases. If the NBA sanctions it similarly, there will need to be some type of adjustment.

But the multi-player stuff is garbage in any sport. I find it ironic that hockey has a reputation for violence yet there are more multi-player or "bench clearing" incidents in all other professional sports except possibly football. Last one I remember in the NHL is about 15 years or so ago in Montreal against Philadelphia... and it was in the pregame warm-up before a playoff game (so no officials, just pissed off, psyched up players). Suspensions and fine can eradicate these incidents if the leagues want to make them meaningful.

[noel]

Noel, I'd appreciate it if you'd explain to me why you ignored the lengthy and thoughtful post which I wrote, explaining why I feel there's a racial element to reactions to this brawl, and then immediately jumped on a post that's obviously not entirely serious. I assume you read the first post, as you obviously read my later post.

No problem. It's pretty simple really. I have a great deal of respect for you and your opinions, and I did think it was a good post. You yourself eluded to the fact that you'd need to 'write a book' in order to appropriately address the issue. Personally, I felt as though it would be a disservice to you if I didn't 'write my own book' in order to reply to you so instead I elected to leave your post standing on it's own and not reply at this time. Hopefully after things calm down with the holidays and my trip to Taiwan I'll have the appropriate amount of time to give you a response worthy of your opinion.

I'd add that, proving that there isn't an element of racism in the way athletes are perceived is going to be nearly impossible for me or anyone.

Regarding the soccer post... my bad, I thought you were serious.

There was a few punches thrown in the Giro D'Italia this year by two of the Italian riders. There was a lot of outrage in Italy, but there wasn't any outrage here in the States. It must have been because neither of the riders was black.


That Nash quote is priceless. Carmelo looks so bad coming out of this incident it's not even funny.

[Sueven]

Fair enough. I'm actually glad you didn't respond, because I'm in the middle of taking a (take-home) exam and then I'd feel obligated to stop and respond back. Merry Christmas and all that.

[masteen]

Suev, I don't see how you can make the assertion that the NBA isn't more focused on one-on-one play when the league banned the zone defense for almost 2 decades so that MJ could shine. I MEAN TO ENCOURAGE SCORING!

I pick on Iverson because he's an easy target. He's a symptom of why the NBA sucks: the concept of teamwork is utterly foreign to him. Yes, he CAN dish the ball as good as anyone, but he doesn't want to put in the work to elevate the players around him. We're talking about practise.

I don't think the NBA is all bad. Watching an aging superstar like Shaq gracefully accept a lesser role for the good of the team was nice. That's still the exception, not the rule.