Chinese surprise.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 25, 2006, 3:18 pm

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/print ... 23,00.html

Sunday, Aug. 20, 2006
The War For China's Soul
As Christianity begins to reshape the nation, TIME learns new details about a crackdown on one church
By SIMON ELEGANT / NANJING

Several weeks after the attack, the witness is still trembling. "Everyone knew trouble was coming," the man says, describing the day last month that haunts him still. A fit-looking fortysomething wearing a T shirt and jeans, the man was a volunteer working on a half-completed church in a suburb of Hangzhou, a picturesque lakeside city 112 miles southwest of Shanghai. Financed by local Christians, the church was to serve a community of 5,000 parishioners. Hundreds of them gathered at the site on the afternoon of July 29, some joining the construction crew building the church. Others, many of them elderly parishioners, sat on plastic chairs surrounding the church, singing hymns.

The Christians surely knew they were testing the patience of local government officials, who insisted the building was illegal and had to be torn down. But few were prepared for what happened next. Witnesses told TIME that at about 2:30 p.m., thousands of uniformed police and plainclothes security officers appeared at the construction site. The police cleared a way through the crowds for a few drill-equipped backhoes, and the authorities then demolished the church. Witnesses say police bludgeoned people indiscriminately with nightsticks. "They were picking up women--some of them old ladies--by their hair and swinging them around like dolls, then letting them crash to the ground," says a man who watched the clash from across the street. A statement faxed to TIME by the information office of the Xiaoshan district government describes the scene differently, claiming that about 100 Christians "attacked and injured government officials" and that although the police detained a few protesters, none were injured. But the volunteer interviewed by TIME produced receipts from the local hospital attesting to his treatment for broken ribs, which he says many others suffered as well. "They treated us like dead dogs," he says. "Some of them scoffed at us as we lay there, saying, 'Where is your God now? Why can't he help you? If you want to go to heaven, we'll help you get there right now.'"

The crackdown in Hangzhou may seem unremarkable for a country where a public demonstration of any kind can still trigger a brutal government response. For openly religious Chinese, in particular, that's a constant threat. Human-rights groups regularly report cases of harassment, temporary detention and even long-term imprisonment of priests and their followers. But the Hangzhou episode is also unmistakable evidence that Christianity is transforming Chinese society.

After four failed attempts over a millennium and a half by foreign missionaries to gain a foothold in China, Christianity is finally taking root and evolving into a truly Chinese religion. Estimates vary, but some experts say Christians make up 5% of China's population, or 65 million believers. And thousands more are converting every day, the vast majority through unofficial "house" churches like the one that sparked the clash in Hangzhou. "Politically, China hasn't changed at all," says Dennis Balcombe, who has spent the past three decades evangelizing in China from his base in Hong Kong. "But as far as religion is concerned, it is much, much freer."

The flowering of Chinese Christianity reflects a wider religious awakening. Long criticized by Western governments and human-rights groups for its virulently antireligious policies, China's central government has in recent years adopted a more lenient attitude toward religious expression. Traditionally, the Communist Party allowed membership in five officially approved religions: Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Protestant Christianity and Catholicism. Anything falling outside those groups was officially shunned. Even those adhering to "approved" religions have to register to worship in churches and temples approved by the state. But those rules are becoming harder to enforce. These days, Chinese flock to everything from mystical Taoist sects to huge, prosperous Buddhist temples and spiritually based exercise and meditation systems.

The growth of spirituality poses a challenge for China's ruling class, which pays little more than lip service to communist ideology but still strives to control its restive populace. Faced with a social phenomenon that would use up huge amounts of time, manpower and international goodwill to curb, Beijing's cadres have decided to tolerate the new churches so long as they keep a low profile. The more outspoken and organized such groups become, however, the greater the threat they pose to the authority of the Communist Party. For the moment, that influence is confined to local issues related to their faith, such as church building and education. But observers say the challenge could grow, as churches continue to spread out of the countryside and into the cities, where they draw from the ranks of the rapidly growing middle class. "If you look at Chinese history, all the rebellions that led to change of dynasty had some religious connotations," says Jean-Paul Wiest, an expert in the history of Christianity in China who teaches at Beijing's University of International Business and Economics. "The authorities don't like that."

There may not be much they can do about it. Across the country, Christians are worshipping with a fervor once unimaginable in a communist society. Take the service held at 10 o'clock on a recent Sunday morning in China's booming southern city of Shenzhen. Some 40 people are crowded into the living room of a small two-bedroom apartment. The regulars call the place the Home of Love, and like the majority of Chinese Christians, they worship in private because they can't--or won't--register with the government-controlled official Protestant Church, the so-called Three-Self Church (the church's name refers to its three guiding principles of self-reliance). The cries of hawkers selling vegetables and fruits in the alleyway below drift through the grimy windows, but the worshippers have eyes only for the front of the room, where a plump, middle-aged preacher in a tight gray suit stands at a small lectern. Behind him is a large wooden cross draped with a white cotton cloth. Several pictures of Jesus hang on the walls, and Chinese characters phonetically spelling out Emanuel--"Yi-man-nei-yi"--frame an archway.

Because of fears that officers from the Public Security Bureau might disrupt the proceedings, which are illegal, services in house churches are often low-key. Not at the Home of Love. The congregation starts by belting out a series of hymns to an accompanying sound track booming out of several large loudspeakers. After the singing, the preacher launches into a sermon extolling the growth of Christianity in China. Then he steps among the tightly packed worshippers, holding their heads and praying over them, chanting what would sound to most Chinese like gibberish. Soon most of the room has joined him in fervent, noisy prayer, many swaying back and forth, eyes squeezed shut, moaning, shouting, wailing. One woman repeats over and over, "Oh mashalah, oh Yesu, oh mashalah, oh Yesu, oh Yesu, oh Yesu." (Yesu is Jesus; mashalah seems to mean nothing.) The woman's face is clenched in ecstasy; tears run down her cheeks.

So far, the government hasn't done much to halt the spread of such hothouses of faith. But that may be changing, as evidenced by the assault on the Hangzhou church. The mandarins in Beijing have always reserved special venom for groups they label xie jiao, or evil cults. The most famous is the brutally suppressed Falun Gong movement, but the authorities may be tempted to extend that label to the Christian sects that are growing the fastest--those practicing fervid forms of worship that stress miracles and personal inspiration through prayer. A number of cultlike, pseudo-Christian offshoots have sprung up in the Chinese countryside in recent years, apparently inspired by this ecstatic form of worship. Often spawned by the personal ambition of their leaders, these highly secretive groups usually espouse millenarian views that make the authorities profoundly nervous. Members of a sect called the Three Grades of Servants were convicted earlier this year in Heilongjiang province on 20 murder charges, involving attacks on its main rival, Eastern Lightning, a sect that relies on kidnapping and beating to make converts. One of its central aims is the overthrow of the "Great Red Dragon," a thinly disguised reference to Beijing.

Although Christians tend not to see themselves as revolutionaries, house churches have become one of China's few bulwarks against government power. In Wenzhou, a city in coastal Zhejiang province known among Chinese Christians as "China's Jerusalem," 15% to 20% of the population is Christian, a fact that gives the church leaders much greater authority in confronting local party officials. In 2002, for example, a campaign of protests and appeals to Beijing led to the reversal of a city government decision to ban Sunday-school teaching. In Hangzhou, local officials say the clash--about which TIME was the first to hear eyewitness accounts--stemmed from the church builders' long-running defiance of government regulations. The county government's statement contends that three alternative sites had been offered to the Christian community's representatives but were refused by church leaders.

Chinese authorities insist that they are not hostile to religion as long as it is practiced according to their rules. At officially sanctioned churches like St. Paul's in Nanjing, a near puritanical attention to order is maintained. There are rows of wooden pews, a pulpit from which the sermon is preached, even a signboard on which hymn numbers are posted. The pastor of St. Paul's, Kan Renping, 38, says his congregation has grown from a few hundred when he took over in 1994 to some 5,000 regular worshippers today. Many have to watch the proceedings on remote TV from four satellite chapels in a nearby building. Despite the growth, Kan isn't a proselytizer. "Anyone is welcome to come in and have a chat with me about religion," he says. "But if people want to come in and talk politics, that we don't like. We only want to concentrate on religion here."

In the long run, though, government attempts to circumscribe how people practice their faith seem unlikely to succeed--and could well spark more unrest. It's telling that even in the face of such crackdowns, some Chinese Christians say they are confident that they will eventually win the freedom to practice their faith as they choose. Brother Chow (not his real name) is one. He is every inch the model of the modern Chinese Christian, a preacher who doubles as a businessman. Despite his pressed jeans, polo shirt and fancy mobile phone, he professes to believe in a deep, ancient faith, one that he says has carried many a Christian through persecution. "Why don't I think it will be a problem? Because as time goes on, the government will get to know the Christian spirit and realize that God exists." He smiles with the secret knowledge of a true believer. "And then," he says, "they will become Christians too."

An interesting side of China. I knew that many missionaries have been working there for decades. It's gratifying to see their work is flourishing!

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 25, 2006, 4:12 pm

You should go there and continue this most important work!

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » August 25, 2006, 4:20 pm

The Christian Missionaries pretty much stopped after the cultural revolution being personae non gratis...Though there were heaps going between the World Wars...Pearl S. Buck etc...

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » August 25, 2006, 5:07 pm

Bullets or Bibles, books or bombs, it is still cultural imperialism.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » August 25, 2006, 5:22 pm

What fucking poor ass linguist couldn't figure out that "mashalah" is prolly messiah?

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 25, 2006, 6:26 pm

Kylere wrote:Bullets or Bibles, books or bombs, it is still cultural imperialism.

You're funny. And unreal too.

We are merely spreading the good news. We would be very poor neighbors to do otherwise.

If you had the courage of your convictions to actually oppose us, then lo and behold... YOU would become a cultural imperialist yourself!

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » August 25, 2006, 8:49 pm

All I have to do to oppose you is support logic and rational thought, reality takes care of the rest.

Organized religion is merely what mankind needed to get it through its formulative years, as we mature as a species we will eventually realize that the concept of a god is singular and individual.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » August 25, 2006, 10:48 pm

Right, there is only 1 God

Midnyte_Ragebringer · August 26, 2006, 12:05 am

Marbus wrote:Right, there is only 1 God

Yeah. Yourself. Believe in yourself as much as you believe in false gods and this world would be a much greater place.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 26, 2006, 2:58 am

Kylere wrote:All I have to do to oppose you is support logic and rational thought, reality takes care of the rest.

Organized religion is merely what mankind needed to get it through its formulative years, as we mature as a species we will eventually realize that the concept of a god is singular and individual.

Once again, if you truly had the courage of your convictions you wouldn't feel the need to attack people who have faith in God.

I mean what skin off your nose is it because I happen to believe?

The true colors of your bigotry are showing through.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
William Shakespeare

On a more serious note, even the Bible states clearly that not all people are called to Christ. We would wish it were otherwise since he also states that no one can come to the Father except through himself. I read some theology recently that says there will be people outside the realm of God's punishment. When those people die they will simply die and be no more. So maybe we will both be right in the end.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » August 26, 2006, 4:21 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Marbus wrote:Right, there is only 1 God
Yeah. Yourself. Believe in yourself as much as you believe in false gods and this world would be a much greater place.

This is the single most intelligent thing you have ever posted here and I agree with it completely.

Metanis wrote:Once again, if you truly had the courage of your convictions you wouldn't feel the need to attack people who have faith in God.

I mean what skin off your nose is it because I happen to believe?

The true colors of your bigotry are showing through.

Where to begin...
How about the fact that you fucking superstitious retards are regressing our culture and scientific advancement with your dogma? How about all the fucking wars that have been waged over invisible boogeymen? How about your hero, W, who claims to be recieving orders from god (probably his code word for Cheney anyhow) having this thumb on the button? How about medical science being outright stuffed by you fundy fucks? How about endless hypocrisy, especially making fun of other fruitcakes who's belief systems are as whacked out as your own (hi2u scientology and mormons) while ignoring the obviously rediculous elements of your own belief? The list goes on, but thats a good primer for you to wrap your one brain cell around.

You religeous yahoos need to be stopped before you hurt yourselves and everyone else around you. Bigotry is prejudice against a race or a culture, like you demonstrate every time you complain about middle easterners and mexicans on this board. Kylere may be a bigot, but trying to quell nutbags who are trying to shit on everyone elses personal freedom and waging ideological wars against the advancement of society does not qualify as bigotry. Consider yourself educated, if your child raping priest gives you permission to learn, that is.

Smug fucktard with poor grasp of logic wrote:On a more serious note, even the Bible states clearly that not all people are called to Christ. We would wish it were otherwise since he also states that no one can come to the Father except through himself. I read some theology recently that says there will be people outside the realm of God's punishment. When those people die they will simply die and be no more. So maybe we will both be right in the end.

Oh, so a couple men in dresses in Italy decide that the paradox of nice people who never heard of god is bad for PR and shit out that gem? How did they come up with this conclusion, exactly? Did God send it to them in a TPS report? It sure as shit isn't in the bible, which clearly states those people are hellbound. And before you fall back on the whole "man cannot interpret divine will" circular logic bullshit, then why even bother with the fucking bible as the basis of anything if anything inconvenient in it can be disregarded at will (hi2u 99% of leviticus, except the homo hate of course) by a "theologist"?

A theologist is just a PR guy who tries to make the bullshit pill of superstition easier to swallow. The fact that you discuss them like they are some type of physicists making breakthroughs in the laws of the universe, when in fact they are just reinterpreting a 2000 year old poorly translated fairytale book, just shines a huge fucking spotlot on what a truely indoctrinated crispy you are. It also is a barometer on the sad state of the country, because the giant gaggle of fundies who support the current leadership, purely because they promise to keep the homos contained. Good job fucking the country, assholes.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 26, 2006, 6:17 am

tell us what you really think

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » August 26, 2006, 6:45 am

Jice Virago wrote:All that needed to be said.

Bravo.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » August 26, 2006, 7:55 am

LOL

I am not a bigot, I think everyone should be free to worship as they please WITHOUT interference from government or other people.

That is called Freedom of Religion, go check out a little piece of paper called the Constitution of the United States, go past the preamble, and down to the amendments. Now tht you are there, check out the one our fouinding fathers put FIRST.

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Now lets look at the bigot charge. Merriam-Webster defines bigot as;

Main Entry: big·ot - Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t -Function: noun
Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Wow if you go by the base definition it sounds like every poster here*, but the trick comes in the especially part. See while people like Metanis want others to do as they say, I want others to do as they feel without having to listen to anyone tell them their beliefs are evil. I fail the test for religious bigotry, unlike most people who call themselves christians. I do not hate them, and I am not out trying to take away their rights to believe in whatever Mythos they choose. Hell if I had to pick a church it would be the Church of All Worlds as laid out in Stranger in a Strange Land by Heinlein. (lemme clarify it would not be the real world set of Gaia worshippers with the same name)

So you can throw words around and so can Jice (because he likes cheap shots and personally I prefer Name brand drinks) but they have no value when not based in fact. So have fun with your witnessing, enjoy yourself even, but it is silly to hassle people who do not want it.

The current president follows the same god you do, and frankly I do not see anything to recommend your mythology over the Norse gods at this point. I do not believe that Jesus was the son of a god, I think he was the son of Mary and Joseph. I do not think the bible is literally or figuratively true, and I wish that the Puritans had stayed in England. But not beleiving the same myths you do, does not make me a bigot anymore than not believing the Washington Cherry Tree story makes me anti-american.

BTW I believe in something, but I do not have to make you believe it to validate myself, now if everyone felt that way I would love organized religion.

* Well almost every psoter here, I have changed political parties, and realigned my world view to meet reality since VV was born, most people are still saying exactly the same thing.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 27, 2006, 5:23 pm

Kylere wrote:Bullets or Bibles, books or bombs, it is still cultural imperialism.

Your previous post was actually quite good. However this one I'm quoting here is enough to convince me you aren't as pure as you pretend. This is the kind of statement a guilty liberal would own.

I've been trying to push some buttons around here and I'm taking and pushing some unpopular positions. I do actually appreciate when people such as yourself post something reasoned and articulate.

But if you don't see the merits in my arguments there's always Ignore.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 27, 2006, 5:36 pm

Jice Virago wrote:fucking superstitious retards ... the fucking wars ... invisible boogeymen ... orders from god ... stuffed by you fundy fucks ... endless hypocrisy ... rediculous (sic) belief ... quell nutbags ... shit on ... child raping priest ... "Smug fucktard ... circular logic bullshit ... huge fucking ... indoctrinated crispy ... giant gaggle of fundies ... keep the homos contained ... Good job fucking the country, assholes.

Thank you very much. Postive affirmation from a real critic is always important.

I do however detect that you seem to be viewing the world from a contorted position.

You can let go of your ankles anytime now.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » August 27, 2006, 6:14 pm

Metanis wrote:
Kylere wrote:Bullets or Bibles, books or bombs, it is still cultural imperialism.
Your previous post was actually quite good. However this one I'm quoting here is enough to convince me you aren't as pure as you pretend. This is the kind of statement a guilty liberal would own.

I've been trying to push some buttons around here and I'm taking and pushing some unpopular positions. I do actually appreciate when people such as yourself post something reasoned and articulate.

But if you don't see the merits in my arguments there's always Ignore.

OMG someone called me a liberal!!!! Oh my, Jice, Kyooky, Someone? please let them know I am not a liberal.

If there were missionaries preaching communism on every street corner in the US, there would be riots. It all comes down to the fact that I recognize that when we use missionaries to export our culture it is underhanded change of a sovereign nation via "peaceful" emmisaries. Whenever you work to change the culture of another nation state, you are acting against their history, and trying to turn them away from beliefs that especially in the case of China have been held since long before a man named Jesus was born. How can you tell others that their religion is wrong? The first and most basic tenet of christianity is acceptance, not intolerance. Acceptance includes leaving others to believe as they do, without pursuing their change. The only acceptable way to convert people to christianity is by being the very best christian you can be and setting an example for others.

I admire christianity when I see it being practiced, not when I see it being proselytized vs evangelized, because then it is clearly being hypocritical.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 27, 2006, 6:45 pm

I don't want the Chinese converting to christianity because then they'll really start killing people.

Jesus Christ. Can you imagine a billion christian lunatics in one country? There's some checks and balances to keep christians somewhat under control in the U.S. and most other countries but let it run rampant through the Chinese government and all hell will break loose.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 27, 2006, 6:50 pm

Kylere wrote:... The only acceptable way to convert people to christianity is by being the very best christian you can be and setting an example for others.

I admire christianity when I see it being practiced, not when I see it being proselytized vs evangelized, because then it is clearly being hypocritical.

The problem is sir...

... you are flat out, totally, 100% wrong according to the source of what a Christian should practice, as in the words of Christ himself.

The very last thing Jesus tells his followers, "go and make disciples of all nations..." (Matthew 27:19 in case you want to look it up.)

A Christian is an evangelist. A = B. End of story. Practicing Christianity means TELLING people about the good news. Some people like the good news enough to want to hear more. Imagine that!

I find it very odd that you would pretend to state what a Christian IS, when you claim you are not a believer. If you were a shoe salesman would you claim to know the precise job description of a genetic researcher?

You are merely making an assertion what you would LIKE a Christian to be so it would be more comfortable for you. Once again, your aversion to the truth bears resemblence to the Liberal persuasion.

If it looks like duck... and quacks like a duck... by God... it might be a duck!

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » August 27, 2006, 7:27 pm

Duck?

Shit, I thought Jesus liked fish. You fucking revisionist, you want to change the Bible. Metanis is a Satan worshipper.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » August 27, 2006, 7:44 pm

Kaldaur wrote:Duck?

Shit, I thought Jesus liked fish. You fucking revisionist, you want to change the Bible. Metanis is a Satan worshipper.

It could also be a witch!

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » August 27, 2006, 8:10 pm

Does Metanis float?

"We all float down here."

miir · Post by **miir** » August 27, 2006, 8:13 pm

to get it through its formulative years

What is meaning formulative?

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » August 27, 2006, 8:16 pm

LOL I am evil because your mythology is no more impressive to me than any other.

See, you miss the point, just like so many "christians" do. The bible is full of contradiction, one group just chooses to support certain passages over the other. 102 years ago in the US we ended Slavery, but even now there are large groups of nuts insisting the bible allows for and promotes the concept. You can find people in large numbers that believe beating your wife is supported in the scriptures. For any whack stance on the far left or the far right there are large numbers of utter loons that can quote scripture to back their cause.

When utter contradictions exist, not all of them can be true, therefore the bible is fallable. Get over it. Focus on peace, love, joy, sharing, and virtue over oppresive conversion. People join religions because they respect its tenets and its members, the ones that join from shout in the street evangelicalism are the lowest common denominator, and produce the next beer hall putsch crowd ready to declare their witchhunt a "faith based initiative"

Oh yeah and calling me a liberal is like calling Kyoukan a moderate, because you are off by about 40 degrees on the scale. I was until about 8 years ago a republican, I attended church for years, I served my country unlike most of the citizenry and I am economically a conservative. Just because I choose to allow others to practice their faith without telling them mine is right does not make me a liberal, it merely makes me rational.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 27, 2006, 9:43 pm

"See, you miss the point, just like so many "christians" do. The bible is full of contradiction, one group just chooses to support certain passages over the other."

No you missed the point the bible is not full of contradiction, People interpret its meaning different.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 28, 2006, 12:21 am

Kylere wrote:...When utter contradictions exist, not all of them can be true

There are no contradictions in Christ's final commands to his followers. Our conversation has been about the process of evangelizing and there is no contradiction in that area of the Bible.

Forgetting about the Bible and it's supposed problems let me just present a hypothetical case for you...

For the sake of argument let's assume that you and I are neighbors. We are both married and live the typical American middle-class suburban lifestyle. You have a typical middle class marraige and your wife is not particularly happy with you most of the time. Let's say that I come home from work every night and lavish flowers and gifts and attention on my wife and generally make her feel like a princess. (Of course I'm making this up!) You know women talk amongst themselves and my wife can't help but relate how she is treated. Obviously your wife is going to become even less satisfied with you even though I have no direct involvement with your situation. I'm not directly evangelizing your wife, but you are feeling the effects nonetheless. Such is the way of Christianity. You want Christians to be odorless, colorless, tasteless, and generally invisible. But it's not going to happen.

Meanwhile even as bad as us Christians can be, we don't quite rise to the level of

"We were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint," Centanni told Fox.

Count your blessings.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 28, 2006, 1:05 am

Kylere wrote:I was until about 8 years ago a republican...

But that was Clinton who dropped a cruise missle on the aspirin factory in retaliation for the the bombings of our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania! (Besides, only 258 people died and 5,000 were injured.)

And it was Clinton who bombed Iraq 4 days in a row because Saddam got on his nerves at the end of 1998!

OHHHHHH! I get it! You were pissed the Republicans didn't get that jerk Clinton convicted after his impeachment! Yeah, I was pissed about that too! Damn Republicans really screwed the pooch on that deal.

Although in a way it sure helped pave the way for Dubya two years later. Gore could have been unbeatable if he'd been President for a year or so before the elections.

Or did you just decide that any party opposing hummers in the Oval Office was too stuffy and traditional for you?

Anyway, as you can see from my sarcasm, I find very little to indict the Republicans as the 90's drew to a close. The Democrats had the upper hand in the White House and Senate while Newt's power was failing in the House. Clinton had actually been fiscally conservative and the nation was riding high on economic prosperity. The economy was hot!

I don't recall much about your local politics but the southern end of the lower peninsula has always been safely Democratic. (On a side note, I find it hugely amusing that one of the founders of Amway is going to be your next governor! I used to draw the circles myself!)

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » August 28, 2006, 8:39 am

Okay I see you are just the neocon version of Kooky.

No logic nor reason. I did not stop being a rpeublican because of democrats, I stopped being one because of republicans. I want christians to live to their ideals without trying to cram them down anyone elses throat.

But I see clearly that you want to revert to the 12th century, when all the good christians were living the life patterns of modern day trailer trash.

Therefore I am done, people that try to debate using a joke like the bible are not worth bothering with.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » August 28, 2006, 1:50 pm

You know, the religious fucks on this board (Marbus excluded) have done more to push me away from religion than anything else 'internet based' I've ever run into. I have such an undeniable urge and need to not be associated with the completely illogical and back asswards thinking of said people that if God really thinks the way you guys think, I don't want to meet him anyway.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » August 28, 2006, 4:14 pm

How exactly did you manage to squeeze a "But Clinton!" into this one? I think you're talking point cue card piles got mixed up. Perhaps a color coding system will help you out there.

Anyhow, your annecdotal neighbor story is so far off base, it makes it clear how difficult to pull you back towards reality it truely is. At this point, I would settle for a low earth orbit. Christians do not, as a rule, keep to themselves. My wife's parents are missionaries and they brag about how they sneak into african countries where they are not welcome all the time. They want to impose their antiquated system of cultural norms on everyone else, as demonstrated in all their rescent attacks on gays, science, and the education system in general. You are a danger to yourselves and everyone around you. You fail to accept the dangers that your ideology has facilitated, like pedo priests getting a slap on the wrist, bombing abortion clinics, and various attacks on women's rights. If christians really did keep to themselves (like 90% of the other religious groups in this country) no one would have a problem with you.

Finally, if you are seriously going to contend that there are no contradictions in the bible, then I contend that either you never read it and/or you're legendarily closed mind refuses to acknowledge the obvious even when it is right in front of you in irrefutable form. Given you're track record here, I would contend both are likely. For the record, I as an atheist have read the bible no less than four times from cover to cover in my life and know its contents better than most of my christian aquaintences.

PS Kylere is a conservative libertarian, in my opinion, with some bigoted stances (inevitable, given he is from the midwest, we all carry some good ole boy in us). He is not a liberal, by any stretch of the imagination. He is a typical white male 80s republican (social and fiscal conservative) who got disolutioned with the GOP over the psycho course the Neocons have taken the party. I may disagree with his views to the point of contempt at times, but I would never place him anywhere near the same level of retardation of willful obstenance as you, Metanis.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » August 28, 2006, 4:58 pm

Jice Virago wrote:How exactly did you manage to squeeze a "But Clinton!" into this one? I think you're talking point cue card piles got mixed up. Perhaps a color coding system will help you out there.

He said he left the "Republican" mindset 8 years ago. Clinton was the President 8 years ago. Yeah, it was a stretch, but not much of one.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 28, 2006, 6:05 pm

Boogahz wrote:
Jice Virago wrote:How exactly did you manage to squeeze a "But Clinton!" into this one? I think you're talking point cue card piles got mixed up. Perhaps a color coding system will help you out there.
He said he left the "Republican" mindset 8 years ago. Clinton was the President 8 years ago. Yeah, it was a stretch, but not much of one.

Wasn't even a stretch at all. But, Jice needed to deflect from the truth of what Met said by being a douche. It worked.

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » August 28, 2006, 7:06 pm

can we just consolidate all your retardrepublicant (lol loonie libs) circle jerking faggotry to one big megathread so we can all avoid reading it

this shit is going on in like 5 threads

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » August 28, 2006, 7:28 pm

Simple solution would be to prevent Met from starting threads in this forum, since all he is doing is cross linking shit he finds on neocon op-ed sites anyhow. As much as I am loath to admit this, at least Midnyte occasionally links something worth discussing and Cart is sometimes entertaining in a humorous way. Met is a partisan net warrior out to spew regurgitated shit he has read on Drudge report, which he has cited numerous times as a credible source.

Before you call me a douche, count the number of threads he has started in the last month alone that are nothing but a fucking cross linked neocon op-ed piece. I entered this thread to defend the stands of Kylere and Midnyte, of all people, so its not like its the "loony libs" out to get him again. Unless, of course, you are going to contend that Kylere and Midnyte are liberals......

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » August 28, 2006, 7:37 pm

It's been nothing but one big transparent troll attempt. I bet they even had discussions about it. Over the phone. Just like the Atokal troll patrol did.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » August 28, 2006, 10:47 pm

Hell if the loonie libs all think he is unreasonable, then perhaps I am a swung more left than I realized.

Wait, Michael Moore? Idiot? Check
Modern Unions, dumb as fuck? Check
Clinton Signing NAFTA, dumb as fuck? Check?

Nope not leftie

Bush is an idiot? Check (Well I debate he is an idiot, I just do not think he is intellectually capable of running the country)
Welfare is fucked? Check
Education not hand outs? Check
Rush Limbaugh is a fucking Tool? Check

Well shit, I do not think I moved left, I think the republicans moved right.

Post by **Sylvus** » August 28, 2006, 11:26 pm

Or you could be the same as you always were, and even then still realize what a retard Metanis is.

I think it's unanimous.

noel · Post by **noel** » August 29, 2006, 1:56 am

This thread actually made me take Kylere off ignore because I found myself... agreeing with him wholeheartedly. That should tell you something right there. Metanis needs his leash tightened.

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » August 29, 2006, 3:15 am

There's already a Chinese country/province with complete freedom of religion where I'd estimate that less than 10% of all the people I've encountered have identified themselves as monotheists.

The Chinese mindset simply doesn't jive well with western religion. First and foremost, they are superstitious. The primary form of spirituality manifests itself in the form of worshipping ancestral spirits/ghosts. The idea of following any organized, monotheistic religion completely falls outside of their traditional/cultural mindset, making the idea of "Christianity reshaping China" but a stupid pipedream. Even if a few Chinese people were to convert, it is almost certain to be of the Pascal's Wager variety because that falls in perfect line with the way they approach religion.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » August 29, 2006, 9:00 am

Yeah but Kelgar just because soemething is ineffective does not mean we should keep doing it. That is the kind of logic that has schools shutting down special education and gifted classes while we blow billions on the "War on Drugs".

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » August 29, 2006, 9:01 am

noel wrote:This thread actually made me take Kylere off ignore because I found myself... agreeing with him wholeheartedly. That should tell you something right there. Metanis needs his leash tightened.

Ignore works for you?

Shit, what am I doing wrong?

Al · Post by Al » August 29, 2006, 12:42 pm

Jice Virago wrote:Drudge report, which he has cited numerous times as a credible source.

That made me giggle. It's been a while since I have heard Drudge and credible in the same sentence. That windbag will post almost anything... and the worst part of that is, I have his site on my favorites! I'm such a loser.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 29, 2006, 7:54 pm

Al wrote:
Jice Virago wrote:Drudge report, which he has cited numerous times as a credible source.
That made me giggle. It's been a while since I have heard Drudge and credible in the same sentence. That windbag will post almost anything... and the worst part of that is, I have his site on my favorites! I'm such a loser.

I'd like to see Jice prove that I've cited Drudge "numerous" times.

Jice is a liar.

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » August 29, 2006, 7:59 pm

What's the count on how many times you and your thick tongued posse have said almost that exact same thing only to be proved wrong each time and continuing on your retard rampage despite the fact? Are we into triple digits yet?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 29, 2006, 8:14 pm

I've got a Chinese Surprise for you!

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 31, 2006, 12:29 am

*~*stragi*~* wrote:What's the count on how many times you and your thick tongued posse have said almost that exact same thing only to be proved wrong each time and continuing on your retard rampage despite the fact? Are we into triple digits yet?

I'm still waiting. Or you too stupid to use the Search function?

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » August 31, 2006, 12:45 am

You talk a bunch of smack for someone who has sex with 11 year old children in SE Asia.

LIKE WE DON'T KNOW

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » August 31, 2006, 3:04 am

Metanis wrote:
Jice Virago wrote:fucking superstitious retards ... the fucking wars ... invisible boogeymen ... orders from god ... stuffed by you fundy fucks ... endless hypocrisy ... rediculous (sic) belief ... quell nutbags ... shit on ... child raping priest ... "Smug fucktard ... circular logic bullshit ... huge fucking ... indoctrinated crispy ... giant gaggle of fundies ... keep the homos contained ... Good job fucking the country, assholes.
Thank you very much. Postive affirmation from a real critic is always important.

I do however detect that you seem to be viewing the world from a contorted position.

You can let go of your ankles anytime now.

what an awesome response that totally ignores anything he posted... it's like a response from someone.... with their head... up their ass!

wowza

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » August 31, 2006, 3:07 am

Metanis wrote:
*~*stragi*~* wrote:What's the count on how many times you and your thick tongued posse have said almost that exact same thing only to be proved wrong each time and continuing on your retard rampage despite the fact? Are we into triple digits yet?
I'm still waiting. Or you too stupid to use the Search function?

Why would I want to search through all your fucking stupid posts faggot.
It's bad enough I'm getting bored enough to go back and acutally read some of them in this thread.

Al · Post by Al » August 31, 2006, 4:29 am

I have to agree with Stragi (gasp) on this one... I've been watching the general forum for years, this one for about 3 weeks. In my 3 weeks I have determined Metanis to be a troll. Through and through. You say something, then when someone poses a counterpoint, regardless of the intentions, you come back with, "Your post is stupid, and so are you. I am the winner!" In fact, you are the loser. You say the things you do to get people like myself to say the things I say. Then, when I do say those things, you say I don't know what I'm talking about and I'm an idiot. And it makes me wonder who the idiot is... I keep responding, and you keep trolling. The pot calls yet another kettle black.